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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: gerry on December 23, 2002, 06:26:00 am

Title: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: gerry on December 23, 2002, 06:26:00 am
Seriously sad and shocking news<P>From BBC.com<P>                                                                            <BR> Joe Strummer, the leader of legendary Seventies punk band The Clash, has <BR> died, aged 50, of a heart attack. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> A spokesman for Strummer confirmed to BBC News Online that the singer died <BR> on Sunday. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> A posting on the artist's website reads: "Joe Strummer died yesterday. Our <BR> condolences to Luce and the kids, family and friends." <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> Strummer formed The Clash in the mid Seventies, and the band, who became <BR> punk figureheads with The Sex Pistols, were regarded as one of the most <BR> powerful rock bands of The Seventies. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> The Clash arguably gave punk a classic pop sensibility and their vital <BR> spirit in turn influenced later bands such as the Manic Street Preachers. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR>  (Embedded image moved to file: pic13977.jpg) <BR>  Strummer recently launched a new career with his band The Mescaleros <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> The band were politically aware and became known as champions of left-wing <BR> causes. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> They were anti-racist and were noted for inflammatory, intelligent punk <BR> songs such as London Calling, White Riot, White Man In Hammersmith Palais <BR> and Tommy Gun. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> Along with the Sex Pistols, they were the figureheads of the punk scene that <BR> put London on the map as the centre of the musical world in the late <BR> Seventies. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> The band, who also boasted Mick Jones, Topper Headon and Paul Simonon, <BR> became huge stars in the US. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> Rolling Stone voted London Calling, their classic 1980 album (released in <BR> 1979 in the UK) as the best albums of the 80s. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> Jeans ad <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> In 1982 they supported The Who at Shea Stadium, the US venue made famous by <BR> The Beatles. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> Their 1982 song Should I Stay Or Should I Go was their biggest US hit, and <BR> was posthumously used in an ad for jeans manufacturer Levi's. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> Strummer led the band until 1986, after sacking Mick Jones. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> In the last few years Strummer forged another successful career with his <BR> band The Mescaleros, touring around the world and releasing two albums - <BR> Rock Art And The X Ray Style in 1999, and 2001's Global A Go-Go. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> He also played with The Pogues and featured in several films, including Alex <BR> Cox's Walker and Straight To Hell, and Jim Jarmusch's 1989 Mystery Train. <BR>                                                                            <BR>                                                                            <BR> He leaves a wife and family. <BR>                                                                            <P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Joymonster on December 23, 2002, 09:14:00 am
That is such sad news...<P>The music world has lost a true legend.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Got Haggis? on December 23, 2002, 09:59:00 am
(http://www.930.com/ubb/frown.gif)
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 10:25:00 am
<BR>Fuck. <P>Rock  and Roll is dead.<P><BR>I cant believe it, there were rumours of a new album and tour and the rock and roll hall of fame.......<P>I think I am going to listen to Rock art and the x-ray style and shed a tear.<P>WHEN JOHNNY COMES MARCHING HOME AGAIN<BR>NOBODY UNDERSTANDS IT CAN HAPPEN AGAIN<BR>THE SUN IS SHINING AN' THE KIDS ARE SHOUTING LOUD<BR>BUT YOU GOTTA KNOW IT'S SHINING THROUGH A CRACK IN THE CLOUD<BR>AND THE SHADOWS KEEP FALLING WHEN JOHNNY COMES MARCHING HOME
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: kurosawa-b/w on December 23, 2002, 10:28:00 am
Oh, that's terrible. What a loss to his family and the music world.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: poorlulu on December 23, 2002, 11:04:00 am
god he was so young...........<P>that is incredibly sad news.............
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: mankie on December 23, 2002, 11:06:00 am
I really can't think of anything to say...so I won't.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: mankie on December 23, 2002, 11:30:00 am
As much as it pains me to admit it, Billy Bragg summed up my feeling for Joe and the Clash beautifully.<P>"Within the Clash, Joe was the political engine of the band, and without Joe there's no political Clash, and without the Clash the political edge of punk would have been dulled"<P>That's what I was also trying to say on a previous topic about punk.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 23, 2002, 11:44:00 am
Very sad news.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 23, 2002, 11:45:00 am
Hard to believe Shane McGowan outlived Joe Strummer. Bummer.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Venerable Bede on December 23, 2002, 11:51:00 am
i don't know what to say.  that's just terrible news.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Skaboss on December 23, 2002, 12:15:00 pm
I just poured some 40oz on the curb...<P>Damn, I just saw the guy a while back too.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: paige on December 23, 2002, 12:25:00 pm
wow. that is so terrible.  (http://www.930.com/ubb/frown.gif)
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: jadetree on December 23, 2002, 12:40:00 pm
This really is shocking.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: mankie on December 23, 2002, 01:19:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>Hard to believe Shane McGowan outlived Joe Strummer. Bummer.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Or even worse...you did!
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 23, 2002, 01:23:00 pm
Merry Christmas to you, too.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mankie:<BR><B> Or even worse...you did!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 01:29:00 pm
do you two have to trivialize this thread, of all threads?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 23, 2002, 01:44:00 pm
When I first saw this thread this morning, I was wondering how long it would take before it turned into an insult against another board member, or a rant about Coldplay or soccer. My guess of 12 posts was pretty close.<P>But to return it to the topic at hand, which Clash song is your favorite?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: thirsty moore on December 23, 2002, 01:55:00 pm
Remote Control, Know Your Rights, Straight To Hell, Lost In The Supermarket... and so on, and so on.  They had a ton of great songs.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Joymonster on December 23, 2002, 02:25:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B><BR>But to return it to the topic at hand, which Clash song is your favorite?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have several favorites from The Clash:<P>This is Radio Clash, Career Opportunities, (White Man) In Hammersmith Palais, Bankrobber, Lightning Strikes (Not Once But Twice) among many others. <P>Thanks for the music, Joe.   <P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 02:27:00 pm
its difficult to call a favourite, a lot of the songs are all of  such great quality....<P>there is no obvious how soon is now or atmosphere.<P>Personally, I always got a big kick out of I fought the law, but I prefer spanish bombs, but some of the more obscure underrated songs like Lose this skin are really inspired as well.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Venerable Bede on December 23, 2002, 02:38:00 pm
whiteman in hammersmith palais is my favourite song.  he was great in "straight to hell"
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Sir HC on December 23, 2002, 02:51:00 pm
For me:<P>Sounds of Sinners, Bankrobber (they got dub right that time), Police and Theives, and the whole movie Rude Boy.  Think I will have to get that one today.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: G.Love on December 23, 2002, 02:55:00 pm
Damn, I just found out and I feel like someone just punched me in the gut!  <P>"Don't you bother me, not anymore<BR>I can't take this tale, oh, no more<BR>It's all around, Jimmy Jazz"
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: vansmack on December 23, 2002, 02:55:00 pm
Unbelieveable.  Just woke up and saw this (I'm on west coast time this week).  Not how I wanted to start my day.  Markie, I wish I were in DC so we could get loaded tonight with you, mourn and watch "Westway to the World."<P>"Straight to Hell" is my favorite Clash tune.  <P>I'm seeing Social D tonight - looking forward to Ness and the band's tribute.  About the only thing that may put a smile on my face today.  <BR>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 03:01:00 pm
cheers Vansmack,<P>I think I will have a beer or two, I dont think I could manage Westway to the world right now though.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: mankie on December 23, 2002, 03:24:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>Hard to believe Shane McGowan outlived Joe Strummer. Bummer.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Excuse me for taking offense to this posting, now fuck the lot of you!<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: paige on December 23, 2002, 04:32:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G.Love:<BR><B>Damn, I just found out and I feel like someone just punched me in the gut!  <P>"Don't you bother me, not anymore<BR>I can't take this tale, oh, no more<BR>It's all around, Jimmy Jazz"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>sigh....Jimmy Jazz..<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: vansmack on December 23, 2002, 05:23:00 pm
I'm still really bummed, mostly because  I just broke out all my vinyl Clash that I keep here at my folks place in CA and I'm remembering all the times I used to listen to these albums over and over again with friends learning to play guitar or getting fired up for a show, a piercing, a tattoo or something.  Hell, even when we just went out breaking shit.  <P>Elvis has died for punk fans.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 05:28:00 pm
I am extra bitter that its the only one of the lot of them that is still producing great music.<P>I was too young to really get the clash first time around, I remember the first  time I heard I fought the law was at a disco before a Fat lady sings show at Peterborough football club. The crowd went wild. <BR>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: vansmack on December 23, 2002, 06:02:00 pm
I was fortunate that a really good friend of my parents was very into them and made sure that I was too.  Though I was too young to have ever seen them, I did see Strummer with the Mescaleros at the Whiskey this year and enjoyed it, though the music was much different than the Clash.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 06:30:00 pm
the two times strummer and the mescaleros played 930 I thought the place really rocked. <P>The last of those times I got to have a chat with him as well. He did seem like a great guy. He gave Washington on my dollar bill an afro and a spliff and added the third encore track, island hopping, to my set list.<P>Ahh, to have a life like that, to have touched so many lives. I was really looking forward to seeing them again next year. Also the rock and roll hall of fame thing as well might of been good fun.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Relaxer on December 23, 2002, 06:33:00 pm
I'm crushed about this. A reunion -- no matter how cynical or packaged -- would've been a wonderful thing. I've had London Calling on repeat all day, and this is my favorite song. <P>Well, I got a friend who's a man <BR>What man? <BR>The man who keeps me from the lovely <BR>He gives me what I need <BR>What you need? What you got? <BR>I need it all so badly <P>CHORUS <BR>Oh, anything I want<BR>He gives it to me <BR>Anything I want <BR>He gives it, but not for free <BR>It's hateful <BR>And it's paid for and I'm so grateful to be nowhere <P>This year I've lost some friends <BR>Some friends? What friends? <BR>I dunno, I ain't even noticed <P>You see, I gotta go out again <BR>Again? My friend <BR>I gotta see that mainman <P>I killed all my nerves <BR>My nerves? What swerves? <BR>And I can't drive so steady <P>I've lost my memory <BR>My mind? Behind! <BR>I can't see so clearly
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 06:36:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Relaxer:<BR><B>I'm crushed about this. A reunion -- no matter how cynical or packaged -- would've been a wonderful thing. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I dunno, I was pretty happy with the mescaleros myself. There is a beauty about keeping looking forward. The two mescaleros albums are very worthy in their own right.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: thirsty moore on December 23, 2002, 06:41:00 pm
Markie -- That's a load of pants and you know it.  In a recent post you were overjoyed that Mick Jones joined Joe Strummer on stage.  <P>I think a Clash reunion would be a great concert.  Even though I was more than satisfied with both of Joe Strummer's performances at the 930.<p>[This message has been edited by thirsty moore (edited 12-23-2002).]
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Relaxer on December 23, 2002, 06:43:00 pm
Most true, and no disrespect meant to the Mescaleros. But seeing Joe and Mick on-stage together would've been something special.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 07:08:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thirsty moore:<BR><B>Markie -- That's a load of pants and you know it.  In a recent post you were overjoyed that Mick Jones joined Joe Strummer on stage.  <P>I think a Clash reunion would be a great concert.  Even though I was more than satisfied with both of Joe Strummer's performances at the 930.<P>[This message has been edited by thirsty moore (edited 12-23-2002).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hum, let me see. I think a clash reunion would of been a great thing to have seen, but its good that it didnt happen and sully the good name of the clash. Although I would of gone to every concert my credit card would of allowed.<P>(But then I was planning on getting to a couple of mescaleros shows next time anyhow.)<P>I mean really, can you imagine 50 year old dudes in army combats really looking and sounding "cool" rattling of londons burning?<P><BR>When they come knocking at your door how you gonna come?<P>with your hands on your head or on the trigger of your gun?<BR>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 23, 2002, 07:10:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Relaxer:<BR><B>Most true, and no disrespect meant to the Mescaleros. But seeing Joe and Mick on-stage together would've been something special. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes I agree, and I am pleased for the two of them that it happened the one time about a month ago.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Relaxer on December 23, 2002, 07:35:00 pm
I know! How fortunate is it that they did perform on stage one last time? That is a bootleg that I am going to HAVE to get, and will share if I can copies.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Samantha on December 24, 2002, 03:20:00 am
I missed out on so much...<P>all the music legends who were around before I was born...are all dying now...music I will never get to be pleasured by...<P>I mourn as much as ignorance can possibly mourn...
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on December 24, 2002, 10:00:00 am
Joe Strummer's death is sad, but, well, glasshopper, don't spend too long mourning legends of the past, and instead look for the to-be legends of your own time.   There'll always be evil mothers who will say that everything good is in the past (and that life is just dirt), but it's just not true.   <P>If I may quote Grey Matter, from 1985:  "Seeing things in retrospect is something I can never do / because images grow dark with age and make me wish for something new."
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 24, 2002, 10:11:00 am
Probably it's most sad that his wife and three kids have been left without a Dad and Husband at Christmas time.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on December 24, 2002, 11:19:00 am
That kinda goes without saying.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Jaguär on December 24, 2002, 01:06:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>   Probably it's most sad that his wife and three kids have been left without a Dad and Husband at Christmas time.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very true....and for a long time yet to come. <P>At least we still have his music in all of it's glory.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 24, 2002, 01:12:00 pm
<A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31313-2002Dec23.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31313-2002Dec23.html[/url] <P>interesting tale from Post movie reviewer Desson Howe from Joe's youth...
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Samantha on December 24, 2002, 02:41:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Doom:<BR><B>Joe Strummer's death is sad, but, well, glasshopper, don't spend too long mourning legends of the past, and instead look for the to-be legends of your own time.   There'll always be evil mothers who will say that everything good is in the past (and that life is just dirt), but it's just not true.   <P>If I may quote Grey Matter, from 1985:  "Seeing things in retrospect is something I can never do / because images grow dark with age and make me wish for something new."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yes, but these are the people who STARTED it all...it's depressing to know you just missed them...
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on December 24, 2002, 04:21:00 pm
Well, things are always starting, too.  Ya just gotta find it.  (And then be sure to tell me about it!)<P>Not to belittle the greatness of the greats.  But I was around (albeit a snot-nosed youngsta) during the birth of punk, and back then there were many people saying that music would never be as great as the music of the 60s again.  Piss-offedness at that backwards-looking attitude was one of the many driving forces behind punk.   Punk was never meant to be a nostalgia trip.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 24, 2002, 05:12:00 pm
Ahhh,<P>Doctor Doom I agree with your sentiments entirely, but the sad reality is that I saw Tommy Gun last night on Vh1 and it was better than anything I have seen on MTV in weeks. And its not even one of the best clash songs.<P>When insipid emotionless albums like interpols win best album of the year in pitchfork..... shit that album wouldnt have been original 20 years ago, nor have been the best of the year.<P><BR>Quality music has been pushed to the fringes, marketing and demographics  have overtaken songwriting and musicianship.<P>Now instead of passively hearing "good music" on the radio or on MTV most people who post here regularly seem to have to hunt out real bands through obscure internet radio stations and publications.<P>This is not a good time to be a music fan. What music do you think captures the ferocity and the power of the clash right now? What do you see that is currently happening to be so positive about. <P>The only glimmer of hope I can see are cracks appearing in MTVs all powerful stranglehold.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 24, 2002, 05:16:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B> <A HREF="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31313-2002Dec23.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31313-2002Dec23.html[/url] <P>interesting tale from Post movie reviewer Desson Howe from Joe's youth...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Thanks for posting a great article, Heanry.  Can you spare time for a root beer sometime?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on December 24, 2002, 06:56:00 pm
Uhhh, quality pop culture has ALWAYS been on the fringes.   The Clash didn't get the recognition they were due until YEARS after their prime.<P>Looking for quality music on MTV would've been like expecting to hear the Clash on top-40 radio in 1979.  It doesn't work that way, never has, never will.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: bearman🐻 on December 24, 2002, 10:53:00 pm
I am so glad I got to see him peform songs like "Straight to Hell" and "I Fought the Law"...there were some other great ones I saw him in 2000.  What a phenomenal talent and what an incredible loss. He was definitely one of the great ones.  How very sad...I've been so bummed about this.  RIP Joe.  :-(  My favorite Clash songs are "Complete Control", "I'm So Bored with the USA" and "City of the Dead".<P>I just want to take a second to wish all of you a really Merry Christmas and say happy holidays to you.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: bearman🐻 on December 24, 2002, 11:00:00 pm
Vansmack, did Social D cover any Clash songs when they performed???  I think Mike Ness is a fan.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: MAXX44 on December 25, 2002, 12:19:00 am
My favorite Clash songs are "Lost in the Supermarket" and "Spanish Bombs"......a terrible loss
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: vansmack on December 25, 2002, 03:34:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bunnyman:<BR><B>Vansmack, did Social D cover any Clash songs when they performed???  I think Mike Ness is a fan.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, SxDx didn't cover any Clash tunes, though Ness talked praisingly about Strummer throughout the show.  I thought he may do the old Bobby Fuller tune that the Clash made popular again "I Fought the Law" because he does that on his solo album, but he didn't.  In a weird way, I was glad he didn't, though I kept yelling the "Guns of Brixton" because I've heard SxDx do that and it's amazing.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: poorlulu on December 25, 2002, 07:35:00 pm
i really love straight to hell..............<P>i've been singing that in my head all day today.........<P>dododododododdododo.....umdododododododododo..........
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Yank on December 26, 2002, 05:03:00 am
The death of Strummer was a real loss to me too!  I spent most of the 80's listening to The Clash, The Pistols and SLF's.  Never had the opportunity to see them live and I'll always regret that now.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 26, 2002, 12:05:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Doom:<BR><B>Uhhh, quality pop culture has ALWAYS been on the fringes.   The Clash didn't get the recognition they were due until YEARS after their prime.<P>Looking for quality music on MTV would've been like expecting to hear the Clash on top-40 radio in 1979.  It doesn't work that way, never has, never will.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well the clash did have something like 19 top 40 hits in the UK. And all the albums went top 15 at least.....<P>So if there had not been a radio station backlash against punk, the clash would of been regular visitors to the airwaves.<P>Also I dont think radio stations liked being spray painted those two times by Joe.....<P><BR>Not quite on the fringes then hey? Although the 1979 part of your argument really does beat me, if you had picked 80 or 81, well then you would have been my Christmas bitch too.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 26, 2002, 04:13:00 pm
Joe Strummer Trivia:<P>Who sampled "Rock The Casbah" on a 1999 Top Forty hit?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on December 26, 2002, 04:20:00 pm
Well, UK radio has always been more daring than US radio, which was really what I was talking about.   What are you, a bleedin' Brit?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: nkotb on December 26, 2002, 04:26:00 pm
I know it was a Will Smith song, but I'm not sure which one.  I'm guessing "Will2K?"<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B>Joe Strummer Trivia:<P>Who sampled "Rock The Casbah" on a 1999 Top Forty hit?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 26, 2002, 04:48:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nkotb:<BR><B>I know it was a Will Smith song, but I'm not sure which one.  I'm guessing "Will2K?"<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are correct, sir.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: nkotb on December 26, 2002, 04:52:00 pm
I'm not sure whether I should be proud or extremely embarrassed...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> You are correct, sir.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 26, 2002, 05:00:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Doom:<BR><B>  What are you, a bleedin' Brit?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ding Ding DING.<P>Have you got an elastoplast to well the bleedin'?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Dr. Anton Phibes on December 26, 2002, 11:13:00 pm
The Clash "Takes The Fifth"......1980 at Richie Coliseum....University of Maryland....London Calling Tour....That show rocked my world......Thanks for the fucking great time Joe!!....R.I.P.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on December 27, 2002, 03:43:00 am
I am highly envious of anyone who saw the Clash.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 10:08:00 am
And now for the other side of the coin...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.fraterslibertas.com/blogger.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.fraterslibertas.com/blogger.html[/url]  <P>Wednesday, December 25, 2002<BR>Vain In Vain; Strummer Joe dies; The Younger Yawns<P>From The Younger:<P><BR>To say that the media has been effusive in their praise of recently departed Clash founder Strummer Joe is a serious understatement. Hopefully there is still time for Time to get him nominated for Person Of the Year. I can??t turn on the TV or open a newspaper without being bombarded with cloying gush about how brilliant the Clash were or what a Master Genius (12 allowed per year) Strummer Joe was. To wit (from the Star Tribune): ??The songs of the Clash railed against apathy, powerlessness, police brutality, American Cultural Domination (caps mine), and poseurs of all sorts?.<P>Hey Star Tribune, the poseur was Strummer Joe and punk music in general.<P><BR>Another: ??The band??s ??London Calling?? is widely regarded as one of the most important rock albums of all time.?<P><BR>I see this as a good time to make the point that IF I HEAR ONE MORE FUCKING THING ABOUT ??IMPORTANT? FUCKING RECORDS I??M GOING TO DRIVE A TELECASTER THROUGH BONO??S MELON!<P><BR>Am I the only one that does not look for music to be ??Important?? I want music that excites my senses??I can??t imagine relaxing with a cocktail and Frank??s Songs For Swingin?? Lovers and thinking ??Yeah, this is one important record?. Give me groove goddammit. Give me excellent musicians at the peak of their craft. Give me someone who can paint a picture with their words without being overbearing. Give me a vocalist who can convey what they are feeling through their God-given ability to sing in tune and with power. Keep your teenage Take On The World to yourself. Punk is music for teenagers. Hear me adults? Adults USED to listen to adult music but that died with rock n?? roll (of which punk is just an offshoot, not some other genre as it pretends to be?SIDE NOTE: I??d rather listen to every Foghat, Boston and Toto record ever made than to have to sit though one side of a Clash record ). <P><BR>I was listening to more fawning yesterday on NPR (including one question from a woozy host: ??How will Strummer??s death affect modern music??) and the Music Authority they had on said that basically the Clash were braveandgoodandsmartandstrident because they called their record ??Sandinista? in an era ???where the Regan white house had labeled the Sandinistas to be a dangerous communist regime.? Right. Reagan made them commies out of whole cloth and the brave punks were Telling It Like It Was.<P><BR>What irks me about critics and fans of punk is that these people earnestly believe this is the music of the smart set. I??m convinced that critics have to start using terms like ??important? to describe music (MUSIC!) because they are desperately trying to imbue their own lives with importance because they live in a malaise of despair, nihilism, cynicism and leftist politics (see John Bream). When a band comes along that echoes their dark take on this life they are hailed as Jesus Incarnate. <BR>Those that read these influential critics merely follow suit because they too consider themselves smart (I??ll bet 5 grand Janine Garofalo has every Clash record).<P><BR>I??d like to ask fans of this genre one question: do you feel joy from listening to some disaffected, post-modern, art-school-dropout English wanker rail against capitalism and Mean People? Does that bring joy to you? Does it? How can you feel anything but hatred from listening to hatred? <P><BR>Great quote from the man himself: ??If you aint thinkin?? about man and God and law, then you aint thinkin?? about nothin??? This from the son of a foreign service officer who was raised in excellent schools. You see, dropping your G??s makes you more authentic.<BR>This is an almost comical level of self-importance and pretension.<P>Has their ever been a more musically correct band than the Clash? Or a more musically correct form of music than punk? The way the media and every critic imaginable has embraced this mostly poorly played, juvenile, snotty lifestyle-in-a-can punk BS is remarkable. Apparently, the younger generation has indeed listened to their boomer elders in embracing punk as bands like Sum 41 and Good Charlotte carry on with the tired clichés and worn-out riffs (albeit with better hooks and Avril Lavingne can skate8r n my driveway any day).<P><BR>Punks like Strummer Joe always claimed that they were the sort of ??Anti-hippies? but I see many more similarities than differences: 1. The belief in being ??Authentic? to the point of establishing conformist rules of behavior (punk is simply another lifestyle-in-a-can and has always been). 2. Dismissal of normal healthy living (healthy people don??t die at age 50) as a bourgeois conceit. 3. The infantile notion that there are Powerful Forces at work in the world to oppress the smart truth-seekers who ??Get it?.<P><BR>Well I get it and I think its crap. It will be interesting to see how the media treats the death of a real music legend like George Jones when he??s gone. Do you think we will see his picture and death notice on the front page of the Star Tribune?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: bearman🐻 on December 27, 2002, 11:06:00 am
Henry Dark, you're entitled to your own opinion, but some musicians come along that make everyone else stop what they're doing and say "WHOAH".  The Clash did exactly that.  For the time they came around, they gave people something with meat on the bone to chew on.  When someone like Joe Strummer passes onto the next world (if you believe in that sort of thing), it creates a sense of loss and we can't help but look back on his accomplishments and feel like this is a pretty major blow to the music world.  In general I agree that most critics blow, but it is pretty difficult to dispute that the Clash made a significant impact on a lot of other great musicians, and their music has withstood the test of time.  And for the record, yes, the CLash's music has given me hours of joy and happiness.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 11:10:00 am
I didn't write the article, and I didn't say I agreed with it.<P>   I'm not so blindly worshipful of Joe Strummer to not at least see some humor in the article, and some truth in it. Doesn't mean I'm endorsing it, just thought I'd post it.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: bearman🐻 on December 27, 2002, 11:13:00 am
I apologize...guess I should have directed that to the guy who wrote it.  :-)
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 11:16:00 am
No problem...I should have probably started a new thread with it rather than posting it in a thread more or less meant to be a tribute to him.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 01:00:00 pm
I dont see what truth there is in it at all. <BR>what truth do you see rhett?<P>perhaps this is telling: "SIDE NOTE: I??d rather listen to every Foghat, Boston and Toto record ever made than to have to sit though one side of a Clash record ). "<P>Has this person actually listened to anything other than rock the casbah on the radio.<P>As for the jibes of being poorly played or just angry, well, thats just nonsense.<P>Sure he was at an expensive school, but then went on to live in a squat for about 7 years.<P>I thought it was impressive the clash have such a back catalogue, 5 albums, without one love song. I guess tat is what the reviewer wants, hit me one more time?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on December 27, 2002, 01:08:00 pm
I think the one and only truth in that article is the pomposity with which rock critics go around declaring things to be "important."<P>Other than that, that guy's an ignorant boob.   Even if you don't like the Clash, Boston, Toto, and Foghat are crap.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 01:09:00 pm
I found some truth in "The way the media and every critic imaginable has embraced this mostly poorly played, juvenile, snotty lifestyle-in-a-can punk BS is remarkable."<P>But I still think we should be nice and respectful, since the guy just died.<P>and the thing about stuff being "important"...yeah<p>[This message has been edited by Celeste (edited 12-27-2002).]
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 01:20:00 pm
so music cant be important? Well the reviewers are only justifying their own reviews?<P>So then can any form of art be important?<P>the visual arts, opera, architecture, all of that is art and therefore umimportant too?<P>In the list of top 100 Britains it was interesting to see a couple of popular musicians and no visual artists, even though some of the very best painters were/are British.<P>Perhaps pop musics accesibility to the masses earned some of its creators a place on the list? <P>do you think music is not important because you are an eliteist?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 01:22:00 pm
I think the media and the critics are just nostalgic, as punk was the last musical movement that meant anything.  The author of the piece below seems to be nostalgic as well, for Lawrence Welk and Arthur Murray dance studios and the days when "Adults USED to listen to adult music" before that heathen rock music warped everyone's semsibilities.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 01:22:00 pm
Oh and by the way, if you go and listen to clash records you will realise that there are at least three great musicians in the clash.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 01:35:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B>do you think music is not important because you are an eliteist?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think music is unimportant, it's just funny to recognize that many critics throw the word around. Granted, that guy who wrote the "article" that was posted, is probably a bozo himself, but some of his points were funny with a little truth to them.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 02:05:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B>I dont see what truth there is in it at all. <BR>what truth do you see rhett?<P>perhaps this is telling: "SIDE NOTE: I??d rather listen to every Foghat, Boston and Toto record ever made than to have to sit though one side of a Clash record ). "<P>THIS IS A JOKE, GET IT? HAHA.<BR>Has this person actually listened to anything other than rock the casbah on the radio.<P>As for the jibes of being poorly played or just angry, well, thats just nonsense.<P>Sure he was at an expensive school, but then went on to live in a squat for about 7 years.<P>PROBABLY FUN TO LIVE IN A SQUAT FOR AWHILE IF YOU KNOW YOU HAVE A MANSION YOU CAN GO BACK TO ANYTIME.<P>I thought it was impressive the clash have such a back catalogue, 5 albums, without one love song. I guess tat is what the reviewer wants, hit me one more time?<P>FIVE ALBUMS AND NO LOVE SONGS? THAT'S NOTHING TO BRAG ABOUT IF YOU ASK ME.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 02:15:00 pm
Truths in the article:<P>1. It's quite tiresome to have anybody, critic or fan, tell me what is "musically important". If it doesn't touch my heart, then it's not musically important to me.<P>2. Punk rock is for teenagers. Very well put. Of course punk rock has become such an easy target these days...<P>3. Anybody that bashes Janeane Garofolo gets points on my scoreboard.<P>4. HE's right. Listening to someone sing about hatred of something doesn't really bring joy to my heart.<P>5. We'll see how much press a legend like George Jones gets when he dies.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 02:20:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>THIS IS A JOKE, GET IT? HAHA </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ermm, well its not very funny. Lets not get into a debate on the basis of humour, but why is that funny?<P>As for the squat, well yes, it did remind me of the line in a pulp song, common people... "and if its cold your daddy can end it all"<P>But 7 years isnt just a brief fling, a flirtation. I think that can be regarded as the real thing. He stuck with it until the Clash became popular.<P>I think it takes remarkable imagination not to just write conventional love songs....<P>I cant think of many bands who have avoided it, perhaps all the others are heavy metal, I can never decipher the lyrics to know.<P>But then some people like looking at chocolate box art all their lives. <P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 02:30:00 pm
I think it takes remarkable imagination to write love songs that AREN'T conventional. One could argue that Strummer was either just playing it safe by not attempting to write any, or that he was too emotionally stunted to write about love.<P>   But probably the best argument would be that he was too busy making "important" music to bother with something as trifling as love.<P>   Quite frankly, I'd rather listen to the Clash for a week straight than endure ten seconds of a Toto song. But if you're going to make fun of the Clash, negatively somparing them to Toto is a funny way to do it. Maybe you had to be around in America when Toto was at it's peak to appreciate the joke. Not saying I agree with the sentiment, but I found it funny.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 02:32:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR>Truths in the article:<P>1. It's quite tiresome to have anybody, critic or fan, tell me what is "musically important". If it doesn't touch my heart, then it's not musically important to me.<P><B> What happens if it doesnt touch your heart, yet it touched the heart and influenced other  artists you listen to? It is important beacause it influenced so many people who made more music....<P>Plus it was the first time that governments were really scared that music could change the fabric of society and begat anarchy. It sounds stupid saying and thinking that, but its true you know? <P>and beisdes I dont see why great music shouldnt be held in the same high esteem as say the visual arts </B><P>2. Punk rock is for teenagers. Very well put. Of course punk rock has become such an easy target these days...<P><B> Punk rock is just rock and roll, if thats just for teenagers, well there are a lot of grey haired teenagers in the world, how you must be missing out. As for the clash, only the clash is pure rock and roll, subsequently they pillage a whole host of musical styles. Think of it as bringing world music to peoples attention for the forst time.</B><P>3. Anybody that bashes Janeane Garofolo gets points on my scoreboard.<P><B> Why? I always thought she was reasonably funny and attractive. the are a lot more people worthy of derision in the world. Or do you just not like women who are not afraid to speak there own mind?</B><BR>4. HE's right. Listening to someone sing about hatred of something doesn't really bring joy to my heart.<P><B> so songs about injustice, racism, and oppression dont do it for you? For me they are often the most potent. </B><P>5. We'll see how much press a legend like George Jones gets when he dies.<B>who?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><p>[This message has been edited by markie (edited 12-27-2002).]
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 02:38:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>   One could argue that Strummer was either just playing it safe by not attempting to write any, or that he was too emotionally stunted to write about love.<P>  </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>there is say 1-2 crush on you. A really early clash song. But Bernie Rhodes the clash manager and Svengali encouraged them to write about what was going on around them.<P>Multi-cultural Britain and riots make interesting topics for songs, especially after the horror of disco and prog-rock that was the 70's.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 02:46:00 pm
1. Yes, it's music that's important to some, but who gets to determine what is important? I'm sure most people don't have a clue who Joe Strummer is. My mom doesn't know Joe Strummer. My sister in law probably doesn't know Joe Strummer. <P>2. Rock and Roll does make up a small slice of my musical pie. Punk rock to me is just a bunch of people shouting angrily. I don't care to listen to anger, it only feeds into me and makes me an angry person. If I had to pick one "punk" band to listen to, it would be the Clash, but more for the music than the lyrics. <P>3. Janeane Garofolo is a smarmy, sneering cynical elitist. Perhaps some would describe me the same way, but I know in time I'll change. She seems to be proud of what she is.<P>4. No doubt more people in this country have heard of George Jones than Joe Strummer. Except perhaps among the population of overeducated journalists.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Yank on December 27, 2002, 02:51:00 pm
Don't know if anyone mentioned it yet but the next issue of Uncut Magazine is to feature Strummer and The Clash.  Unless they change it because of his death, it'll be a little surreal to read the articles knowing he was alive when the issue was drafted.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 03:02:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR>1. Yes, it's music that's important to some, but who gets to determine what is important? I'm sure most people don't have a clue who Joe Strummer is. My mom doesn't know Joe Strummer. My sister in law probably doesn't know Joe Strummer. <P><B>well when it influences people to make music, changes peoples thoughts and behaviour, then it is important.<P>but the same good be said of the visual arts, have any of your relations heard of Yves Klein, Frank Stella or Ellsworth Kelly. Just because they live in a cultural void does not stop the rest of the world going on about them. </B><P>2. Rock and Roll does make up a small slice of my musical pie. Punk rock to me is just a bunch of people shouting angrily. I don't care to listen to anger, it only feeds into me and makes me an angry person. If I had to pick one "punk" band to listen to, it would be the Clash, but more for the music than the lyrics. <P><B> in no clash song do they just shout angrily! I think you are thinking of heavy or thrash metal.<P>3. Janeane Garofolo is a smarmy, sneering cynical elitist. Perhaps some would describe me the same way, but I know in time I'll change. She seems to be proud of what she is.<P> Perhaps she is your dream woman, sounds like you would be great together</B><P>4. No doubt more people in this country have heard of George Jones than Joe Strummer. Except perhaps among the population of overeducated journalists.<P><B>Well I dont know who he is, so cant comment either</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 03:03:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>1. Yes, it's music that's important to some, but who gets to determine what is important? I'm sure most people don't have a clue who Joe Strummer is. My mom doesn't know Joe Strummer. My sister in law probably doesn't know Joe Strummer.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So popularity = quality ?? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR><B>2. Rock and Roll does make up a small slice of my musical pie. Punk rock to me is just a bunch of people shouting angrily. I don't care to listen to anger, it only feeds into me and makes me an angry person. If I had to pick one "punk" band to listen to, it would be the Clash, but more for the music than the lyrics.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And modern art to you is probably angry people slinging "pots of paint in the face of the public" -- to paraphrase John Ruskin.  Modern music like modern art requires some interaction from its audience.  Generally, people would rather get the mindless enjoyment of a simple pretty picture or a simple melody than to have to engage.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR><B>3. Janeane Garofolo is a smarmy, sneering cynical elitist. Perhaps some would describe me the same way, but I know in time I'll change. She seems to be proud of what she is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know her nor am I familiar with her work.  But if she is anything like you.....well.....enough said.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR><B>4. No doubt more people in this country have heard of George Jones than Joe Strummer. Except perhaps among the population of overeducated journalists.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, you are equating popularity with quality.  Please reference the Billboard top songs of all time thread:  <A HREF="http://www.930.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003318.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.930.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003318.html[/url]
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 03:10:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> And modern art to you is probably angry people slinging "pots of paint in the face of the public" </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><JOKE>No, that would be abstract expressionism. </JOKE><P>John Ruskin was an idiot<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 03:14:00 pm
So popularity = quality ?? <P>Not necessarily, but I think that some popularity with the general mainstream is a key ingredient to being regarded as "important". Not that being important is necessarily a goal of a punk rocker and all.<P>And modern art to you is probably angry people slinging "pots of paint in the face of the public" -- to paraphrase John Ruskin. Modern music like modern art requires some interaction from its audience. Generally, people would rather get the mindless enjoyment of a simple pretty picture or a simple melody than to have to engage.<P>It is amazing what manages to pass for art these days, isn't it?... after all of the pretty pictures have already been painted.<P>I don't know her nor am I familiar with her work. But if she is anything like you.....well.....enough said.<P>Janeane Garofolo did once say that the Old 97's were her favorite band, so I guess she is a bit like me.<BR>No doubt more people in this country have heard of George Jones than Joe Strummer. Except perhaps among the population of overeducated journalists.<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>Again, you are equating popularity with quality. Please reference the Billboard top songs of all time thread: <P>I feel qualified enough to say that George Jones is the best country singer (based on his singing, not his songwriting) to have lived, in my opinion. That statment has nothnig to do with quality.<BR>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 03:19:00 pm
the clash were popular in the US. They sold 100 000 copise of "the clash" on import in about a year and a half.<P>that figure isnt nearly as impressive as the 5 million creed albums sold in the US last year, but  the clash remains the most popular bought "on import" album in the US history.<P>London calling was a pretty good selling album at the time. As well.<P>perhps you were too busy listening to TOTO?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 03:22:00 pm
but the same good be said of the visual arts, have any of your relations heard of Yves Klein, Frank Stella or Ellsworth Kelly. Just because they live in a cultural void does not stop the rest of the world going on about them. <P>   These names mean nothing to me. Does that mean I live in a cultural void? No, it probably means that thetre work doesn't do it for me, or I have other interests that differ from them.<P>   I'll bet most people in the world don't go on about them.<P>   Just like you don't have a clue who George Jones is...what are you living in a cultural void or something?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 03:29:00 pm
well I know who those artists are, two of them , Kelly and Stella have multiple pieces at prominent locations in either the hirshhorn or modern art gallery. there are  Ellsworth Kelly sculptures outside the hirshhorn and in the new sculpture garden.<P>You live in a cultuaral void.<P>George jones was famous for missing concerts and for marrying Tammy, right?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 03:30:00 pm
I bet alot of the general population of people have heard of the Clash because of Rock the Casbah, but maybe have not heard of Joe Strummer...til now.<BR>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 03:32:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>Yves Klein, Frank Stella or Ellsworth Kelly</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>were you saying these names don't mean anything to you, or just making a point...who first brought these guys into the picture?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 03:39:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B> who first brought these guys into the picture?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>twas me.<P>I like there work and they are all important critically acclaimed artists. I thought it would be good to bring perspective from other arts field to what is important.<P>Incidentally as a bonus it highlighted Henrys life in the cultural void.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 03:44:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B><P>   Just like you don't have a clue who George Jones is...what are you living in a cultural void or something?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was thinking about this more..... George Jones is an American artist working in a peculiarly Americam medium. That would be a good reason not to know him. I bet most culturally aware British citizens do not know who he is.<P>Ellsworth Kelly and Frank Stella I believe are American and work in a universally respected medium.<P>therefore Rhett, like it or not, you live in a cultural void. Try and get out more.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on December 27, 2002, 03:48:00 pm
Who determines what is "peculiarly American" and what is "universally respected"?<P>Do you like that which is "universally respected", because, as an educated cultural human being, that is what you're SUPPOSED to like, or do you really actually like it?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 03:50:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rhett Miller:<BR><B>Who determines what is "peculiarly American" and what is "universally respected"?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Relativism is dead.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 03:55:00 pm
Philosophy class always put me to sleep.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> Relativism is dead.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 03:55:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rhett Miller:<BR><B>Who determines what is "peculiarly American" and what is "universally respected"?<P>Do you like that which is "universally respected", because, as an educated cultural human being, that is what you're SUPPOSED to like, or do you really actually like it?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Country music is peculiarly American. If someone from another country tries it they normally fake an American accent to sound authentic. Country sells much better in the US than anywhere else in the world. As far as I am aware CMT only airs in the US and Canada.<P>So Country music is a Northern American phenom as far as I am concerned.<P><BR>Visual arts such as painting are created, viewed, appreciated and mulled over throughout the world. Painting is universally respected.<P>alright?<P><BR>As for appreciating art, well thats simple, its pretty. <P>What is the difference between seeing a great picture from reading a good book to listening to Sandinista!?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 03:57:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rhett Miller:<BR><B>Who determines what is "peculiarly American" and what is "universally respected"?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>used to be the critics and now it's the critics and the big media conglomerates who can place their "art" in venues where people can see it an latch on...<P>as for George Jones, I bet they (the critics, the papers) WILL make a big deal when he dies, and I don't consider him all that esoteric or peculiar...I heard of him when I was much younger AND didn't even like country music<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 04:00:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>Philosophy class always put me to sleep.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As it required critical thinking and that put your brain into overload function, tripping the involuntary auto-shutoff switch.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 04:00:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B> used to be the critics and now it's the critics and the big media conglomerates who can place their "art" in venues where people can see it an latch on...<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>what point are you trying to make here?<P>Media moguls shovell art to try and hide the fact that all they are interested in is power and money. If you have them why not exercise them by commissioning an artist?<P>Yeah, but so?<BR>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 04:00:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B> <BR>Visual arts such as painting are created, viewed, appreciated and mulled over throughout the world. Painting is universally respected.<P>alright?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>unfortunately, I think painting is becoming less and less relevant, actually, maybe one of you more culturally cultured folks can pipe up here with the exact quote, but I remember hearing something about film  taking over<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 04:01:00 pm
On a side note...I just heard on NPR that Ralph Stanley is a pop phenomenon...who'd have thought?!?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 04:06:00 pm
Forgive my lack of knowledge of world music, but wouldn't most countries have their own form of "country music" just called something else? I mean simply put, it's rural folk music. Surely other countries around the world have their equivant? Apparently, Australia does.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.countrymusic.asn.au/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.countrymusic.asn.au/[/url] <P>I'm sure various forms of visual artists all have their detractors. Thus wouldn't that qualify it from being "universally respected"? Is anything universally respected?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B> Country music is peculiarly American. If someone from another country tries it they normally fake an American accent to sound authentic. Country sells much better in the US than anywhere else in the world. As far as I am aware CMT only airs in the US and Canada.<P>So Country music is a Northern American phenom as far as I am concerned.<P><BR>Visual arts such as painting are created, viewed, appreciated and mulled over throughout the world. Painting is universally respected.<P>alright?<P><BR>As for appreciating art, well thats simple, its pretty. <P>What is the difference between seeing a great picture from reading a good book to listening to Sandinista!?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 04:06:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B> unfortunately, I think painting is becoming less and less relevant, actually, maybe one of you more culturally cultured folks can pipe up here with the exact quote, but I remember hearing something about film  taking over<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I dont know the quote, but film has seen its best days too, all the great directors are dead. Music  and film share the fact that the mainstream has become less and less worthy and the only intersting things are now on the non-commercial fringes. Who would you give an oscar to this year?<P>Plus film always was an easily commercialised medium. Entertainment that last 2-3 hours of sitting down.<P>I think computer games are going to be the next thing that defines our culture. Now even game illiterate people will call me and say have you seen the new screen shot of BMX XXX or played Metal gear.....<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 04:09:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B> unfortunately, I think painting is becoming less and less relevant, actually, maybe one of you more culturally cultured folks can pipe up here with the exact quote, but I remember hearing something about film  taking over</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Interesting theory.  I don't know if I believe it or not, but we have gone full circle from representational to non-representational, so there would appear to be little area left to explore in painting.<P>Works that incorporate film, like Nam June Paik, are interesting, but I don't know if that's just a fad making use of new technology or truly the start of a new medium.<P>I think that in the visual arts (and in music as well) we are just in one of those dead periods.  Something revolutionary will eventually emerge, but I, for one, couldn't predict what it might be.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 04:11:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B>On a side note...I just heard on NPR that Ralph Stanley is a pop phenomenon...who'd have thought?!?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bluegrass is the new jazz.<P>Ralph Stanley is the new John Coltrane.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 04:11:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>Forgive my lack of knowledge of world music, but wouldn't most countries have their own form of "country music" just called something else? I mean simply put, it's rural folk music. Surely other countries around the world have their equivant? Apparently, Australia does.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.countrymusic.asn.au/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.countrymusic.asn.au/[/url] <P>I'm sure various forms of visual artists all have their detractors. Thus wouldn't that qualify it from being "universally respected"? Is anything universally respected?<P> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you would have to be pretty base to not appreciate visual arts on at least some level. I think painting is a medium that is universally respected by people with an IQ higher than say 100.<P>As for country music, well I have not heard of  any of those Australian bands. But country music originate with the celts and they spread around the world. Now commercial country music to me something that is associated with Nashville or the Nashville sound.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 04:12:00 pm
So you're not willing to go out on a limb and predict it will be video games that will emerge?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> Interesting theory.  I don't know if I believe it or not, but we have gone full circle from representational to non-representational, so there would appear to be little area left to explore in painting.<P>Works that incorporate film, like Nam June Paik, are interesting, but I don't know if that's just a fad making use of new technology or truly the start of a new medium.<P>I think that in the visual arts (and in music as well) we are just in one of those dead periods.  Something revolutionary will eventually emerge, but I, for one, couldn't predict what it might be.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 04:15:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>So you're not willing to go out on a limb and predict it will be video games that will emerge?<P> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>what do you think will emerge?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 04:25:00 pm
If I knew that, I wouldn't be working here. I'm not really somebody who has my finger on what is hip and trendy or what will be the cultural interests of the future. I guess it's a sign of becoming an old man...just liking what you like and not worrying about what the next big thing is.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B> what do you think will emerge?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 04:32:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>So you're not willing to go out on a limb and predict it will be video games that will emerge?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm guessing you are being facetious?<P>Video games rake in as much money as the music industry.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 04:35:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> I'm guessing you are being facetious?<P>Video games rake in as much money as the music industry.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>raking in money is not a disqualifier, though I'm not sure that's what you mean...I would not discount video games as being "the new media", so to speak, though I can't say I'm into it
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 04:36:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> I'm guessing you are being facetious?<P>Video games rake in as much money as the music industry.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yet they are not considered art, just entertainment. I predict that this will eventually change.<P>BTW, did you notice in one post Henry asked you what you thought would be the next big thing, then in the next post he said he didnt care what the next big thing would be. What a strange guy.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 04:37:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>   If I knew that, I wouldn't be working here. I'm not really somebody who has my finger on what is hip and trendy or what will be the cultural interests of the future. I guess it's a sign of becoming an old man...just liking what you like and not worrying about what the next big thing is.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nam June Paik, who is considered the foremost artist incorporating video in his work, was in his forties when he got into the genre.  And Grandma Moses, of course......<P>Just because one is chronologically old doesn't mean one can't be open to new ideas.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 04:38:00 pm
No, I meant I persoanlly don't care what the next big thing is, but I'd be interested in hearing what GGW thought the next big thing is. In fact, I'd probably find people's opinions in general about what the next big thing is to be more interesting than what the big thing actually turned out to be.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B> yet they are not considered art, just entertainment. I predict that this will eventually change.<P>BTW, did you notice in one post Henry asked you what you thought would be the next big thing, then in the next post he said he didnt care what the next big thing would be. What a strange guy.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 04:39:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> Interesting theory.  I don't know if I believe it or not, but we have gone full circle from representational to non-representational, so there would appear to be little area left to explore in painting.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I found out that it was a painter in the 1800s that said "Painting is Dead" after he saw some photography...Delaroche...clearly, we now see that painting wasn't dead then and simply moved on to non-representationl explorations...my comment was more about what is accessible to people as far as expressing a message to them...before TV and movies, and before more people were literate, paintings--pictures--were more relevant in that regard...<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 04:41:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B> BTW, did you notice in one post Henry asked you what you thought would be the next big thing, then in the next post he said he didnt care what the next big thing would be. What a strange guy.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>he is an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, wrapped in a mighty sexy bod<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 04:42:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B> raking in money is not a disqualifier, though I'm not sure that's what you mean...I would not discount video games as being "the new media", so to speak, though I can't say I'm into it</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was trying to say that video games have already invaded the zeitgeist.  Frankly, I was surprised to learn how large the industry was.<P>I don't think of video games as a form of artistic expression, although I can see how others could argue that they are.  Perhaps the resident gaming geek could cast some light on the matter.  Markie?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 04:49:00 pm
Well swinging seems to be the big new sensation in the UK, but it's not an idea I'm going to get into.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.feverparties.com/home.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.feverparties.com/home.htm[/url] <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> Nam June Paik, who is considered the foremost artist incorporating video in his work, was in his forties when he got into the genre.  And Grandma Moses, of course......<P>Just because one is chronologically old doesn't mean one can't be open to new ideas.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 04:53:00 pm
Well I guess the Joe Strummer thread has been officially shot straight to hell.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 04:53:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B>  Perhaps the resident gaming geek could cast some light on the matter.  Markie?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well I seem to be slipping behind the times as I get older as well. I never thought of games as art, but there are a crop of books right now showing stills from classic games. Are they cashing in on nostalgia or paying homage to some beautiful visual simplicity?<P>then the games coming out now where you play on line creat totally immersive worlds. Stepping forever closer to say Lawnmower man or existenz.<P>Right now the best of them are organised around killing. As soon as they become fully integrated with pornography I forsee the end of the world as we know it.<P>And it is happening try this....<BR> <A HREF="http://www.bmxxxx.com/over18index.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.bmxxxx.com/over18index.html[/url] <P>or<BR> <A HREF="http://doa3.fateback.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://doa3.fateback.com/[/url] <P>lets face it all entertainment is just "circus and loaves" and distracts us from the inevitabitlity of death.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 04:55:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>Well I guess the Joe Strummer thread has been officially shot straight to hell.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ahh but we had a good debate, thanks.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 04:56:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>Well swinging seems to be the big new sensation in the UK, but it's not an idea I'm going to get into.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.feverparties.com/home.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.feverparties.com/home.htm[/url] <P> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>been there, done that?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 04:57:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>No, I meant I persoanlly don't care what the next big thing is, but I'd be interested in hearing what GGW thought the next big thing is. In fact, I'd probably find people's opinions in general about what the next big thing is to be more interesting than what the big thing actually turned out to be.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know what the next big thing will be.  I do think we are in a period of stagnation.  In the visual arts, I don't think there has been a large scale movement of any consequence since Pop-Art.  Video Art might be the next big thing, but I'm not convinced yet.  <P>In music, just look at all the new sub-genres - Garage and Electroclash are just rehashing a lot of old sounds.  I read an article recently about how alt-country is retro as well, just hearkening back to the pre-commercial era of country music. Punk and Hip-Hop are big, but both are more than 20 years old.  <P>The good thing about stagnation is that eventually something breaks.  Unfortunately, my crystal ball is a little fuzzy, so I'm clueless as to what it will be.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 04:59:00 pm
don't tell me you like Pop-Art! UGH!
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 05:00:00 pm
Not going to talk about personal things like that anymore, but it's not something that interests me. I came across the link when looking for nude beaches to visit in Europe.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B> been there, done that?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 05:03:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B>don't tell me you like Pop-Art! UGH!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>how can you not like pop art? Lichtenstein, Warhol and Thiebaud are all greats. They commercialised art and made it more accesible, are you being elitist again?<P>Good god I love that word.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 05:03:00 pm
what is electroclash? is it just a coincidence that i first heard the word the week Joe Strummer died?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 05:05:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>   Not going to talk about personal things like that anymore, but it's not something that interests me. I came across the link when looking for nude beaches to visit in Europe.<P><BR> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you just contradicted yourself!<P>I went to a couple of nude beaches. I always wondered why the women always wore big-black bikini bottoms.<P>I think I understand now.<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 05:07:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>what is electroclash? is it just a coincidence that i first heard the word the week Joe Strummer died?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>yep coincidence, although the clash have a song or two that could be tentatively called electroclash. How about Ivan meets GI Joe?<P>I think of it as British New Wave. The clash of guitars with primitive electronica.<P>I am probably miles off but that is what the stuff I have heard sounds like.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 05:08:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B>don't tell me you like Pop-Art! UGH!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Depends who it is.<P>I would argue that Roy Lichtenstein is a genius.  Did you ever see his exhibit of Chinese landscape paintings at the Sackler?  Truly sublime stuff.  He took all the devices of the past 400 years and wrapped them in a tongue and cheek package.<P>Warhol was also great.  Sure, he tuned into the commercial "15 minutes" superficiality of art, but that in itself is an accomplishment.  If you look into his catalog deep enough, you see that he was technically gifted as well.<P>Jasper Johns and George Segal get high marks from me too.<P>Mixed feelings on Rauschenberg, I won't deny his innovation, but his works never did much for me. Oldenberg gets old (pun intended) after a while.  You can only do so many oversized or soft household objects.  And I can't stand Keith Haring.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 05:13:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>what is electroclash? is it just a coincidence that i first heard the word the week Joe Strummer died?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <A HREF="http://www.phinnweb.com/313ctr0/electroclash/index2.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.phinnweb.com/313ctr0/electroclash/index2.html[/url]
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 05:13:00 pm
How can you all talk about art without mentioning Thomas Kinkade? Shame on you!
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 05:17:00 pm
Speaking of New Order, we were listening to Power, Corruption, and Lies the other day and I came up with the idea that the Pernice Brothers should cover that whole album (they did a New Order cover at the Black Cat) Would be a little more organic in sound than new Order (as my buddy said, New Order had great songs, but delivered in a bit too mechanical, electronic way.) Anyway, that's probably a better idea than Ryan Adams recording an album of Strokes songs on the banjo.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B>
Quote
Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR>what is electroclash? is it just a coincidence that i first heard the word the week Joe Strummer died?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <A HREF="http://www.phinnweb.com/313ctr0/electroclash/index2.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.phinnweb.com/313ctr0/electroclash/index2.html[/url]
<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 05:17:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>How can you all talk about art without mentioning Thomas Kinkade? Shame on you!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He's big with the George Jones fans, isn't he?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 05:18:00 pm
I cant stand jasper Johns and I dont get  Keith Harring at all.<P>why do you like Johns? If he was British he would be considered boring provincial and insular. The star spangled banner pictures are so poorly coneived it should be criminal.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 05:23:00 pm
Not the ones I know, but the handful of Possum fans I know are only a sliver of the pie.<P>  <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> He's big with the George Jones fans, isn't he?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 05:32:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by markie:<BR><B>why do you like Johns? If he was British he would be considered boring provincial and insular. The star spangled banner pictures are so poorly coneived it should be criminal.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because he was the first major artist to do Pop-Art, the first to blur that line between found objects and art.  The point of the flag painting was to take a readily identifiable object -- the American flag -- and paint it in such a way that the viewer saw it was clearly a piece of art (leaving the lines rough and the newsprint beneath the painting showing through), thus necessitating that the viewer had to look at the flag in a manner completely different from how they had viewed it before.  He did the same thing with numbers and targets.<P>Same thing with those Ballantine cans.  By rendering them as sculptures wasn't he changing the way people saw such objects?  Wasn't he also begging the question whether everyday objects are really art?  Or does that depend on how they are rendered and for what purpose?  Is a Ballantine can full of ale a work of art?  How about one made of plaster and conglomerate?  Maybe you would say that neither are art, but I respect him for making people think about the issue.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 05:36:00 pm
Someone wiped a booger the shape of Italy on the bathroom stall door here at work. Is that art? I think he was trying to express his desire to be in a foreign destination during the holidays. Or just the use of found objects in a totally innovative way. Anyway, maybe I could take a photograph of it and they could dispaly it in some chic gallery in Chelsea.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 05:39:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> Because he was...the first to blur that line between found objects and art.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>what about DuChamp or Joseph Cornell?<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: ggw on December 27, 2002, 05:52:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B> what about DuChamp or Joseph Cornell?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Duchamp's objects -- like the urinal and the wheel -- were largely unchanged, so the question was more about context.  Johns, by recreating the object with art materials, was asking about the representation of the object, not just its context.  Duchamp would have taken a real flag and put it on a pedestal in a gallery, thus changing the context of the object. Whereas Johns recreated the flag in a conciously artistic style, changing the representation of the object.<P>I don't know a great deal about Cornell, but I think of him more as a surrealist and a dadaist.  Didn't he take objects and make weird collages out of them?  If so, I think the questions he would be asking were (like Duchamp) more about context than about representation.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 06:03:00 pm
Good points...and thinking about it, Cornell is more assemblage...<P>Funny, I appreciate the concepts of the Pops' work, as you've described them, but the product, the works themselves, just don't resonate with me...
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Celeste on December 27, 2002, 06:05:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henry Dark:<BR><B>Someone wiped a booger the shape of Italy on the bathroom stall door here at work. Is that art? I think he was trying to express his desire to be in a foreign destination during the holidays. Or just the use of found objects in a totally innovative way. Anyway, maybe I could take a photograph of it and they could dispaly it in some chic gallery in Chelsea.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you write a thoughtful enough statement and schmooze the gallery, it just might happen!<P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Henry Dark on December 27, 2002, 06:08:00 pm
Eltinge's objects -- like the booger on the wall -- were largely unchanged, so the question was more about context. Fricker, by recreating the object with art materials, was asking about the representation of the object, not just its context. Eltinge would have taken a real crusty one and put it on a pedestal in a gallery, thus changing the context of the object. Whereas Fricker recreated the booger in a conciously artistic style, changing the representation of the object.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celeste:<BR><B> If you write a thoughtful enough statement and schmooze the gallery, it just might happen!<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: markie on December 27, 2002, 09:44:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ggw:<BR><B> Because he was the first major artist to do Pop-Art</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Was he? Your art history is better than mine. Did his work really predate Warhols? Which it has similarities too.<P>I still find i difficult to warm to, damn American flag and stupid targets dont really do it for me. The other stuff I have seen of his was not that well made, I dont think from his drawings that he was very skillful. <P>Kind of like Jackson Pollack, who seems to have got lucky. To compensate for being awful at drawing he dripped paint instead.<p>[This message has been edited by markie (edited 12-27-2002).]
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: kosmo vinyl on January 02, 2003, 03:30:00 pm
haven't had a chance to wade through the whole thread yet, but it was very sad to read this news....<P>a couple of thoughts<P>Joe Strummer like XTC spent most of the 90's on strike in order to get out of the recording contracts they signed in the 70's.  Lets hope that Strummer stockpiled loads of demoes, etc and that they get to see the light of day.  <P>Seeing Joe and the Mescalerors was an exilarating experience.  It would be a shame if this talented group disbanded in the wake of Joe's death.  Tymon Dogg could easily keep the Mescalerors going as a viable group, seeing as his addition to the band made the second record much better than the first.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: poorlulu on January 09, 2003, 10:12:00 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Veranda">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kosmo:<BR><B> .  Tymon Dogg could easily keep the Mescalerors going as a viable group, seeing as his addition to the band made the second record much better than the first.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>no and no.  he has an interesting voice but it's annoying after a while.......<BR>lets face it he is no strummer.. <BR>and besides rock art is much better than the other one.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: vansmack on December 22, 2016, 03:07:06 pm
14 years ago today.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqyN3-bpGug
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: methylene blue-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on December 22, 2016, 06:43:08 pm
came up in my fb feed and was very sad
glad Kilsally isn't here to poop on this
As JS was the fuckin man and up there with the likes of Bowie and Prince IMO
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: hutch on December 22, 2016, 07:11:21 pm
hey tell us stories about seeing him live!


I had a friend who saw him with the Clash at GW....
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: evilizac on December 23, 2016, 10:19:04 am
I was crushed when it happened, coming out of my littler Punk Rawk end of teenage years. . . Now, I'm nostalgic.  I rarely listen to the Clash or the Mescaleros (mostly just listen to NPR or Pandora), but have a soft spot for Strummer's mixing of political statement, art and style. I like to think he could have had a great late era career, especially with the right producer. Maybe I'll pull up some Mescaleros or Sandinista.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: methylene blue-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on February 07, 2018, 11:23:54 am
TIL (thanks Hutch)...Feb 7th is  International Clash Day

DC council even approved it (https://wamu.org/story/17/02/07/d-c-recognizing-international-clash-day-celebration-english-punk-band/)

This is anti-racist, anti-fear.
This is pro-solidarity, pro-unity, pro-inclusion. This is a public service announcement with GUITARS.

This is International Clash Day 2018, and all day long, all across the globe, we're celebrating music as a tool for social consciousness, and a band that made it sound so damn good.


(http://blog.kexp.org/files/2017/02/KYR-JayBryant-1000tall.jpg)

Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: vansmack on December 23, 2018, 01:28:05 pm
#neverforget
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: evilizac on December 24, 2018, 09:14:49 am
Happy (in a way) to see this thread pop up. I'm at work and think I'll make a playlist of some Mescaleros and Clash.
I really enjoy(ed) Joe's delivery on his late era material. There was a mature sense of exasperation that to me felt warm and inviting while still questioning the state of the world and his, and as a listener our own, place in it.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: methylene blue-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on February 07, 2019, 03:39:10 pm
(https://media1.fdncms.com/stranger/imager/u/original/38646796/1549398556-image012.jpg) (http://www.boweryboogie.com/content/uploads/2019/02/international-clash-day-2019-poster.png)
happy clash day
an a pox on your houses for slagging joe and co in the stuperbowl thread
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Relaxer on February 07, 2019, 03:59:15 pm
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YocAAOSwzTJcWyRP/s-l640.jpg)

I'm just finishing this. It's very good. Basically a 50/50 split between chronicling the great UK miners strike of the early 80s and the final years of the Clash. Almost the entirety of the Clash part focuses on the years after Mick Jones was booted out, and that's a period of the band I knew very little about. And this historical stuff is super interesting as well.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: challenged on February 07, 2019, 04:04:06 pm
(https://media1.fdncms.com/stranger/imager/u/original/38646796/1549398556-image012.jpg) (http://www.boweryboogie.com/content/uploads/2019/02/international-clash-day-2019-poster.png)
happy clash day
an a pox on your houses for slagging joe and co in the stuperbowl thread

thanks for the reminder; and yeah: no slagging Joe! I remember first hearing the Clash as probably a 13 year old. Definitely was world-changing.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: vansmack on February 07, 2019, 05:02:16 pm
Never felt the need to defend my tastes in music.

I am who I am and I like who I like.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Bagley on February 07, 2019, 05:09:28 pm

thanks for the reminder; and yeah: no slagging Joe! I remember first hearing the Clash as probably a 13 year old. Definitely was world-changing.

Did you receive any Clash records as bar mitzvah gifts?   Or did your introduction to their music, in itself, constitute your entry in to manhood?
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: Space Freely on February 07, 2019, 05:34:31 pm
I was aware of the Clash in high school, but it was actually the first Big Audio Dynamite album, which came out when I was a college freshman, that was the one album that I can cite that most influenced my dive into "alternative" music.
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: hutch on February 07, 2019, 05:36:35 pm
Of course
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: methylene blue-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on February 07, 2019, 05:42:48 pm
Big Audio Dynamite
Why won't Mick tour with them...I can understand not 'rehash clash' without joe...but BAD in 2011 did a few fest dates and dates in the UK...then no more
The 9-date tour was a commercial and critical success.
would LOVE to see BAD at the anthem
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: hutch on February 07, 2019, 05:44:35 pm
Big Audio Dynamite
Why won't Mick tour with them...I can understand not 'rehash clash' without joe...but BAD in 2011 did a few fest dates and dates in the UK...then no more
The 9-date tour was a commercial and critical success.
would LOVE to see BAD at the anthem

Anthem? You meant to write U St Hall ry?!?

I think Mick is pretty much retired
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: methylene blue-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on February 07, 2019, 05:49:13 pm
I think Mick is pretty much retired

looks to me like he's keeping busy since that B.A.D. tour

The Justice Tonight Band
In late 2011, Jones agreed to play songs by the Clash live again, collaborating with Pete Wylie and members of the Farm to form The Justice Tonight Band. The band formed with the aim of promoting awareness of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign. The Justice Tonight band have been joined onstage at different gigs by several other musicians sympathetic to the cause, including Billy Bragg and Paul Simonon. Shane MacGowan joined them onstage in Phoenix Park when The Justice Tonight Band supported the Stone Roses as part of their Reunion Tour on 5 July 2012.

The Wallflowers
Jones collaborated with alternative rock group the Wallflowers as a guitarist and backing vocals for some tracks on their 2012 album Glad All Over.

Rachid Taha
Mick Jones was a featured guest on Rachid Taha's Zoom album (2013) (together with Brian Eno) and Jones toured with Rachid Taha as part of the Zoom project.[16][17]

The Flaming Lips
It was announced in December 2018 that Jones would narrate the upcoming album King's Mouth by The Flaming Lips. The album will be released on 20 April 2019 which is Record Store Day. Jones is also featured on the album's cover artwork. The Flaming Lips's singer Wayne Coyne said of Jones "hes on almost every song... it really is quite unbelievable."[18]



ugh...that reminds me also how the f'n stone roses only did that MSG show
do it for the cash boys...come on man, swallow your fucking pride already
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: hutch on February 07, 2019, 06:06:40 pm
Well and you forgot carbon / silicon




I think he is basically retired...if your definition of not retired is playing on or producing a couple of records in 10 years then I guess he is not
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: methylene blue-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on February 07, 2019, 06:15:01 pm
Well and you forgot carbon / silicon
I didn't...but there has been almost zero activity since 2010
although I did see...Big Surprise (2013)
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: vansmack on December 23, 2019, 12:32:34 am
16 years. # neverforget
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: chaz on December 27, 2019, 04:13:04 pm
16 years. # neverforget

# 17 years
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: hutch on December 27, 2019, 04:40:49 pm
17>16 #neverforget
Title: Re: Joe Strummer R.I.P.
Post by: methylene blue-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on December 22, 2020, 10:53:58 am
Was wondering why this appeared as a 'memory' from 8 years ago
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/01/08/clash460.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=8294b787880694ac345113142b142d7e)
can't believe it's been close to 2 decades without joe