Author Topic: Orlando  (Read 3798 times)

sweetcell

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2016, 11:19:30 pm »
You remember that atheist who shot up a bunch of people because they didn't agree with his world view?

Yeah, me neither.

then you're not paying attention. 

virginia tech shooter hated religion.  i couldn't find any mention of the sandy hook shooter being a religious type, other than one reference to "transferred to a local Catholic school in 7th grade where he reportedly became obsessed with religion" (i.e. was a phase when he was younger).  i did not come across any mention of religion with the shooter of Luby's Cafeteria.  the shooter of the San Ysidro McDonalds was raised religiously, but was resentful that his mother abandoned him to become a missionary so i think we can say he wasn't religious as an adult.  i didn't read anything that said he went to church, was devote, etc.

those are the second through fifth deadliest shootings in US history (orlando is first).  i could continue.
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sweetcell

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Space Freely

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2016, 09:38:22 am »
You remember that atheist who shot up a bunch of people because they didn't agree with his world view?

Yeah, me neither.

then you're not paying attention. 

virginia tech shooter hated religion.  i couldn't find any mention of the sandy hook shooter being a religious type, other than one reference to "transferred to a local Catholic school in 7th grade where he reportedly became obsessed with religion" (i.e. was a phase when he was younger).  i did not come across any mention of religion with the shooter of Luby's Cafeteria.  the shooter of the San Ysidro McDonalds was raised religiously, but was resentful that his mother abandoned him to become a missionary so i think we can say he wasn't religious as an adult.  i didn't read anything that said he went to church, was devote, etc.

those are the second through fifth deadliest shootings in US history (orlando is first).  i could continue.

I think you're missing the point.

Extreme prejudice remains, both socially and legally, in much of the Islamic world against people who engage in homosexual acts. In Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen, homosexual activity carries the death penalty.[5][6][7][8][9][10][11] In others, such as Algeria, Maldives, Malaysia, Qatar, Somalia and Syria, it is illegal.[12][13][14][15] Same-sex sexual intercourse is legal in 20 Muslim-majority nations (Albania, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Burkina Faso, Chad, Djibouti, Guinea-Bissau, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mali, Niger, Tajikistan, Turkey, West Bank (State of Palestine), and most of Indonesia (except in Aceh and South Sumatra provinces, where bylaws against LGBT rights have been passed), as well as Northern Cyprus).[16][17] In Albania, Lebanon, and Turkey, there have been discussions about legalizing same-sex marriage.[18][19] Homosexual relations between females are legal in Kuwait and Uzbekistan, but homosexual acts between males are illegal.[20][21][22][16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam


One could point to text in the Koran and hadiths issued by Mohammad as being the reasons behind the illegality of homosexuality in the non-secular countries above (read the wiki, I'm not going to copy and paste everything.) At any rate, it seems fair to say that homophobia is evident in Islamic doctrine and punishment for it is meted out in many non-secular Islamic countries. Which is not to say that all Muslims are homophobes, most certainly many (especially those living in the West) are not.

One could also point to text in the Old Testament of the Bible as condemning homosexuality, and they would be correct. It's questionable how strongly the New Testament (which most Christians pay more credence to than the Old Testament) condemns homosexuality (one might argue that the New Testament goes lighter on homosexuality than the Koran), but nonetheless it's not a beacon of progressiveness when it comes to homosexuality. One could also say that though Christianity/ the Bible (Old Testament in particular) is filled with homophobia, but at the same time many Christians are not homophobic...

However, one could argue that Muslim and Christian homophobia that does exist is likely directly tied to the ideas/doctrines of the religion, as they pertain to homosexuality. Hence, one could argue that this guy's homophobia was a direct result of his religious views.



Atheism, unlike religion, is not a collection of ideas, but rather the absence of a collection of ideas. I'm not aware of any Atheist Bible or Atheist Koran that sets for a doctrine to be followed by Atheists.

 Which is not to say that an Atheist can't be anti-religious and have an anti-religion worldview. But it's not a set of ideas/doctrines that are causing that hatred, it's a reaction to and rejection of a set of ideas/doctrines that may be influencing that particular Atheist's worldview (and then something else on top of that, as reaction/rejection don't necessarily equal hatred).

Can that hatred of religion lead to killing? Of course it can. That turd in Chapel Hill who killed the Muslim couple certainly killed them because of their religion. And he should fry in the electric chair for what he did. Were the killings (Virginia Tech, etc) you refer to a direct result of the killer's atheist beliefs (or more accurately lack of religious beliefs)? I'm not so sure, did those mass murderers specifically say they were motivated to kill due to  their lack of religion and/or hatred of it?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 09:40:33 am by Space Freely »

LosthismindHatch ♆ ✯ ㋡ 🖖 ⛄

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2016, 09:42:02 am »
You remember that atheist who shot up a bunch of people because they didn't agree with his world view?

Yeah, me neither.

Joseph Stalin?
that was a good one!
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Re: Orlando
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2016, 10:24:28 am »
I don't get the radical islam comment. As in, I don't understand why people
Want other people to say it AND I don't understand people that refuse to say it.

Although in his case, it's starting to sound like he was a gay dude that got rejected and went insane

Space Freely

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2016, 10:38:39 am »
I don't get the radical islam comment. As in, I don't understand why people
Want other people to say it AND I don't understand people that refuse to say it.

Although in his case, it's starting to sound like he was a gay dude that got rejected and went insane

I want people to say "radical Islam" because it acknowledges, at least in part, that the religion of Islam, it's ideas and it's doctrines is at least in part the root of the problems (terrorism, homophobia, etc). (And that's not to discount that guns are also a part of the problem....I'm in favor of gun control to an extent, but I think 9/11 and the Paris attacks proved terrorists can get their hands on "weapons" regardless of gun control...I digress.

I can't speak for others, but I think some people refuse to say it because either:

a) they don't believe that the religious doctrines are what causes people to throw homosexuals off buildings, torture non-believers like Raif Badawi, etc. It's Western imperialism. It's mental illness. It's crazy power hungry people. ISIS aren't "true followers of Islam" (their words, not mine).

b) they believe Islam is the reason for the bad shit in (a), but they don't want to say it because they're afraid to piss off a whole lot of moderate Muslims and a few regressive leftists around the world. They apparently don't think that moderate Muslims are smart enough to realize that "radical islam" doesn't necessarily refer to them. (Though if they believe in Sharia, killing gays, etc it most certainly does).

sweetcell

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2016, 10:49:47 am »
They apparently don't think that moderate Muslims are smart enough to realize that "radical islam" doesn't necessarily refer to them.

no, the problem is the large portion of the american public that thinks "radical islam = all islam", ergo "all islam = radical islam."

i have no problem saying that islam is in need of reformation, needs to change how women are treated, etc.  as a religion, it sucks more than the others (who suck a lot).  but i'm not willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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Space Freely

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2016, 11:01:29 am »
They apparently don't think that moderate Muslims are smart enough to realize that "radical islam" doesn't necessarily refer to them.

no, the problem is the large portion of the american public that thinks "radical islam = all islam", ergo "all islam = radical islam."

i have no problem saying that islam is in need of reformation, needs to change how women are treated, etc.  as a religion, it sucks more than the others (who suck a lot).  but i'm not willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

"Throwing out the baby with the bathwater" (i.e. rejecting Islam) will get you killed in many non-secular Muslim countries.

killsaly

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2016, 11:03:46 am »
Some of you need to get off the internet and go live life.

Space Freely

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2016, 11:05:20 am »
Some of you need to get off the internet and go live life.

Some of us are on the internet to get informed about current events and discuss them. Others are on the internet to steal music and watch wrestling videos. It's all good.

killsaly

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2016, 11:24:52 am »
This website is specifically for the 930 club.

I have no interest in discussing politics with you yahoos; that doesn't mean I'm only interested in music and wrestling. I don't talk about most things that I'm interested on here because it's a fucking music forum.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:34:39 am by killsaly »

killsaly

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2016, 11:26:40 am »
 By the way, nothing you post about shit like terrorism makes you seem any smarter, and it doesn't do anything to contribute to any kind of meaningful discussion, so it's as much of a waste of time as any fucking music post I make. I keep my political talk to in person.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:28:38 am by killsaly »

sweetcell

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2016, 11:30:02 am »
I have no interest in discussing politics with you yahoos

fair enough.  i would suggest that you just ignore this thread.
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killsaly

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2016, 11:32:38 am »
I usually do.  But that does not mean that I do not have an opinion on current events. 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:35:03 am by killsaly »

Space Freely

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Re: Orlando
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2016, 11:58:11 am »
You mentioned you're on Facebook. I suggest you befriend Ali Rizvi.


https://www.facebook.com/ali.a.rizvi/posts/10103047823274678


Ali A. Rizvi

May 6 Toronto, ON, Canada

..

Islam needs to undergo a reformation, says President Obama.

In an interview with Jeffrey Goldberg, he said:

---
 "Let?s all stop pretending that the cause of the Middle East?s problems is Israel. We want to work to help achieve statehood and dignity for the Palestinians, but I was hoping that my speech could...create space for Muslims to address the real problems they are confronting?problems of governance, and the fact that some currents of Islam have not gone through a reformation that would help people adapt their religious doctrines to modernity."
 ---

Jeffrey Goldberg writes: "In private encounters with other world leaders, Obama has argued that there will be no comprehensive solution to Islamist terrorism until Islam reconciles itself to modernity and undergoes some of the reforms that have changed Christianity."

Obama also laments the increasing adoption of hijab as part of a "fundamentalist, unforgiving" interpretation of Islam:

"Obama described how he has watched Indonesia gradually move from a relaxed, syncretistic Islam to a more fundamentalist, unforgiving interpretation; large numbers of Indonesian women, he observed, have now adopted the hijab, the Muslim head covering."

Obama says Muslims ("Islam as a whole...") need to "...undergo a vigorous discussion within their community about how Islam works as part of a peaceful, modern society," "challenge that version of Islam," and "isolate it."

So why not come out and publicly say the words "Islamic terrorism" as he knows and believes it to be?

"I do not persuade peaceful, tolerant Muslims to engage in that debate if I?m not sensitive to their concern that they are being tagged with a broad brush," he says. Goldberg writes: "He believes that a misplaced word, or a frightened look, or an ill-considered hyperbolic claim, could tip the country into panic. The sort of panic he worries about most is the type that would manifest itself in anti-Muslim xenophobia or in a challenge to American openness and to the constitutional order."

Obama, who once angered U.S. Muslims by correctly saying that the conflict in the Middle East "dates back millennia," is also right about everything he has said here, and it's refreshing to hear a liberal world leader acknowledge reality. But the panic he's worried about is already happening, and it's because he's *not* naming the problem.

Calling it what it is would go a long way to differentiate violent Islamists from the largely pro-secular, moderate and liberal Muslims in the United States.
 Read the full interview here: http://www.theatlantic.com/?/?/04/the-obama-doctrine/471525/