Author Topic: And it's over...  (Read 14654 times)

vansmack

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2005, 03:50:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
   and i think thats really how this conversation started, i dont know that any of us (me and xcanuck) were really arguing which teams "deserved" to be ousted, more our personal preferences.  but i can see how a lawyer may misinterpret.  
I was wearing my fan hat in this conversation, not my lawyer hat.  Few folks in America are supporting contraction.  I worked my ass off to get a team to Anaheim and there's no way I'm letting the Ducks go down without a fight when there are other teams that haven't performed as well and are in worse financial shape then Anaheim.  There has been over a 500% increase in kids in Orange County playing hockey since we were granted a franchise, which sure beats what I (and my parents) had to go through to play hockey in Orange County back in the 80's.
 
 And yes, always fun to chat with you.  Pitchers and catchers have reported.
27>34

xcanuck

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2005, 05:55:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
  ok, ok. yes, we need a salary cap.  and while i dont thin contraction is a must for fixing the league, but i sure would like it.
Man...what a kettle of fish.
 
 I think the league has to realize that it's only viable, long term fan base is in Canada, the US northeast, midwest, and (possibly) northwest. Hockey is a regional game and we have to accept that. Contraction is part of that acceptance.
 
 I already outlined why I think contraction is a good thing and it has little to do with the nationality of the cities or their players. The cities I chose were based on what I perceived to be their ability to have a longterm fanbase.
 
 With revenue sharing, a salary cap (or luxury tax), and a smarter business model, I think the NHL can flourish in it's niche markets. Ottawa and Boston were anomolies, due largely to poor ownership (I mean, the Rigas' went to jail for their activities!).
 
 I do kinda wish for old-time hockey - which means bringing back the touchup offsides, smaller goalie equipment, and getting rid of the instigator penalty. But I think things like no touch icing and wider blue lines will also enhance the game.
 
 Anyhow, the pundits are screaming for Bettman's head, the players are stunned by the way Goodenow caved (months too late), and the fans honestly couldn't care less. There's great hockey to be found - you just have to look around the dial to find it.

xcanuck

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2005, 05:56:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by vansmack:
  .
 
 And yes, always fun to chat with you.  Pitchers and catchers have reported.
By the way, which of you is the pitcher and which is the catcher?
 
 Sorry - couldn't resist that one.   :)

sonickteam2

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2005, 06:17:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by xcanuck:
 
 I think the league has to realize that it's only viable, long term fan base is in Canada, the US northeast, midwest, and (possibly) northwest. Hockey is a regional game and we have to accept that. Contraction is part of that acceptance.
 
thanks for explaining it better than i could apparently.  
 
   I think what some of us, especially some of us Canadians, is .... Whats wrong with an 18-24 team league, playing in front of 8000 people, not 20,000 and getting your ASS out to the rink to see the game.  well, i guess that cant happen anymore, but i think what we're saying is, maybe some people WANT to downsize the game a touch.
 
     who cares if they arent making $10 million a year, who cares if its not on ESPN or Fox every night, who cares if i cant go to the new state of the art sports arena to watch em play.  
 
    i would rather stand outside with a tuke and a few nips of whisky and watch a pond match than have what the NHL is now...which is NADA.

xneverwherex

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2005, 06:46:00 pm »
Quote
``When I first heard about it,'' said Pat Williams, general manager of the NBA's Orlando Magic at the time, ``I sent the guy a puck. And I heard he spent all day at his desk trying to figure out how to open it up.''
 
   
thats my favorite quote about bettman. makes me laugh everytime i read it. of course, when asked about when he last saw a hockey game, he had to think for a bit, before declaring you know im just too busy, but i did make it to The BeanPot, if i recall correctly. oh i cant stand the guy. ill just be sad if chelly retires and i never get to watch him again..
 
 i say just get rid of a few teams. theres a great article by someone at the san jose mercury suggesting we have games that eliminate teams for good. now that'd be one way to get rid of some teams. for starters just yank the panthers and a bunch of other teams in the south, send a few north of the border where theres more fans that want to watch. and get rid of the caps while we're at it. noone comes out to support them and you end up seeing more fans for the other team. then again, i got to see patrick roy becoming the winningest goaltender in history so im  damn happy about that!  :D
HeyLa

sonickteam2

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2005, 06:53:00 pm »
on paper, the Phoenixes and Atlantas and Tampas look real good. big cities, large TV markets, people with money to go to games, buy luxury boxes and merchandise, but when it comes down to it, most dont care. Tampa and Atlanta will go on like nothing ever happened if the NHL disbanded, oreven if they lost thier team. but take away the Bruins, Leafs or the Red Wings, and there will be hell to pay.

sonickteam2

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2005, 09:45:00 am »
heres a good article, written by one of Canada's finest journalists, for ESPN.
 
 
 http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=johnson_george&id=1993718
 
 
 
 By George Johnson
 Special to ESPN.com
 Gary Bettman climbed up on his soapbox Wednesday at the swanky Westin Times Square hotel and finally delivered the eulogy for the hockey season that never was.
 
 
 No hankies were required.
 
 
 Americans, or at least the relatively small portion that cared to begin with, long ago tuned out of the murky morass of caps and triggers and taxes and linkage that passed for "negotiations" between the NHL and its players.
 
 
 Why, only Monday night, while reading off the day's national newspaper headlines, the dour, redoubtable Aaron Brown of CNN made passing mention of the impending season cancellation. And, predictably, he followed that up with a joke.
 
 
 You wouldn't catch Lloyd Robertson of the CBC National News pulling a stunt like that.
 
 
 In Canada, the lockout has been no laughing matter.
 
 
 Canada, as everyone knows, has historically turned out broken-nosed, gap-toothed, spit-in-your-face ice gladiators (a disproportionate amount of them hailing from Viking, Alberta), the way Italy turns out tenors, Greece turns out ouzo or Holland turns out tulips. Outside of maple syrup, Neil Young, curling's inturn draw or self-conscious capitulation, they are our greatest gift to the international community.
 
 
 Hockey is for us what baseball is to Americans. A sense of identity. A sense of community. A sense of history. A sense of superiority.
 
 
 But even Canadians have grown fed up with the rhetoric and backbiting and posturing.
 
 
 After Bettman sounded the death knell Wednesday, no rabid mob was reported marching on General Motors Place brandishing pitchforks and torches in search of random violence. The Toronto Stock Exchange did not suspend trading. No kids playing street hockey in Montreal were spotted ripping off their Saku Koivu sweaters to start an impromptu bonfire. The politicos on Ottawa's Parliament Hill weren't advocating back-to-work legislation.
 
 
 Outside the Olympic Saddledome in Calgary, a protester, outfitted in a silver tinfoil Stanley Cup suit and wearing a sign that read: 1919: Flu Epidemic/2005: Greed, was the lone visible voice of dissent before the Flames held a season-ending news conference to give their side of the story.
 
 
 And this, in a town that only 10 months ago reveled in a New Orleans-style Mardi Gras every night Darryl Sutter's improbable gang of castoffs and overachievers won another victory for the prohibitive underdog in all of us.
 
 
 The Red Mile is now the Dead Mile.
 
 
 But we got through the worst of it. Forced to go cold turkey, we coped.
 
 
 We Canadians might not have a Super Bowl or a Shaq-Kobe feud or the BALCO scandal to distract our attention from the loss of hockey, but, hey, our lives aren't that empty.
 
 
 "We have to earn back the love and affection of our fans,'' said Bettman on Wednesday, repressing the urge to dab a hankie at moist eyes, during his cancellation address. Nowhere moreso than north of the border.
 
 
 Anger and a keen feeling of deprivation long ago gave way to a profound sense of disillusionment. Of inevitability. Of, even worse, disinterest.
 
 
 Yes, even in Canada.
 
 
 And that growing sense of stoic resignation is what should worry all the major players -- owners, players, commissioners and executive directors -- still stuck in this impasse. Because if Canada, the cradle of the game, is good and fed up with the whole stupid mess, you've got serious fence-mending problems on your hands.
 
 
 Add to that the fact that erring on the side of caution is a national trait and the majority of support falls squarely with ownership -- particularly when the problems inherent with a tilted playing surface directly affect the feasibility of at least four of the six remaining franchises in the country.
 
 
 We've watched Quebec and Winnipeg fly south and decided that's enough.
 
 
 Maybe our lack of sophistication in such matters is showing, but in Canada, we see a group of super-rich owners squabbling with nouveau-riche players over how to split up a $2 billion business and we shake our heads (The Canadian Press reported the median yearly national income in 2002 as $24,300. Using the last NHL offer of a $42.5 million salary cap, the New York Rangers could sign 1,748 average Canadians for next season).
 
 
 In Canada, we hear the union rank and file talk about principle, then watch hundreds of them troop over to Europe to take the jobs of guys earning chump change by comparison. We can't figure out what gives with players who had remained so defiant in their opposition to a salary cap for their own league, then started trickling over to the United Hockey League, a loop that already has a cap (principle is a sacred thing, apparently, but only when it suits your purposes).
 
 
 In Canada, we think the players are as untroubled by reality as, say, Michael Jackson. Guys from Moose Jaw and Penticton and Antigonish who live in their own Neverland, a fantasy world of wealth, fame, privilege and entitlement.
 
 
 In Canada, we read that Steve Avery has gone all militant and we wonder who the hell Steve Avery is. Or we hear about old warhorses such as Chris Chelios dissing a league that has made them wealthy beyond their wildest dreams and can't believe the gall.
 
 
 In Canada, we understand that the two sides are $6.5 million-a-year apart on a salary cap that could save the season and scratch our heads when both of them can't reach a compromise.
 
 
 Wednesday's announcement, then, spiced up by the last-minute letter bombs exchanged between Bettman and Goodenow, almost came as a relief. At least we weren't compelled by a sense of duty to care. At least not until fall.
 
 
 No more Drop-Dead Date evasions and fairy-tale hoping. No more Daly and Saskin, the lowbrow Abbott and Costello of legal haggling. No more of Bettman's silky answers or Goodenow's furrowed brow. And, we hope, no more Canadian TV sports channel roundtable discussions dissecting for hours on end a round of negotiations that produced absolutely nothing new.
 
 
 The general sense you get from Canadians is: When the players and owners want to act like adults, settle this tiff and get back to work, let us know.
 
 
 We'll be back to watch.
 
 
 But, as much as you might be disappointed, we're not going to work ourselves into a seizure waiting for it to happen.
 
 George Johnson of

Frank Gallagher

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2005, 09:55:00 am »
Anyone who didn't see this coming is blind, stupid or both!!
 
 Let's face it, once the teams started moving out of the place that is the heart and soul of the sport (Canada) it was only a matter of time.
 
 Maybe I'm simplifying it too much but it's seems quite obvious why it failed.
 
 The NHL was too eager to expand the teams to areas that had no right (or interest) in being home to a team.
 
 The players saw how much athletes from other sports were making and wanted a piece of that action.....problem is, that is unfair to the owners because the revenue just isn't there. If they wanted that income they should've grabbed a baseball bat instead of skates when they were kids.
 
 
 Certain teams*coughs* rangers *coughs* paid players waaaaaaaaaaay to much which just brought the average wage up to a level that the vast majority of teams could not afford.
 
 The sport is not really a corporate sport...it's a good old working class sport and therefore as ticket prices started to increase the true fans (me included) became priced out.
 
 Hockey is not a good tv sport, plain and simple. They were never going to get the tv audience to generate any kind of revenue from that source.
 
 The media played their part in killing the sport by reporting only the negative side of the game, and only reporting the headline stories like some bully whacking someone over the head with his stick, which can only be detrimental to the game. For example....a bench clearing brawl in baseball, which is nothing more than a hug-fest really, was always the fun part of the sports report. Basketball players look funny fighting with their gangly bodieys flailing around like a theatrical, expressive artsy-fartsy dance troop, so that was always reported with a light-hearted attitude. Runny-catchy players can't possibly do injury with all the friggin armour they wear so just end up being pushy-pushy contests. Hockey players actually land punches so that was reported in a totally different way. Wether or not anyone agrees with fighting in sports is irrelevant, the fact remains fighting happens in all sports and hockey was punished because they are better fighters.....again very unfair.
 
 Most sportscasters are completely ignorant of the sport so the reporting was just awful, not the best way to promote the sport to the casual sports fan.
 
 People found it very annoying when hockey players were interviewed and every other word was "eh"   ;)

xcanuck

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2005, 10:52:00 am »
Quote
Originally posted by O'Mankie:
  The NHL was too eager to expand the teams to areas that had no right (or interest) in being home to a team.
 ---snip snip---
 The sport is not really a corporate sport...it's a good old working class sport and therefore as ticket prices started to increase the true fans (me included) became priced out.
 ---snip snip---
 Hockey is not a good tv sport, plain and simple. They were never going to get the tv audience to generate any kind of revenue from that source.
 ---snip snip---
 Most sportscasters are completely ignorant of the sport so the reporting was just awful, not the best way to promote the sport to the casual sports fan.
 ---snip snip---
 People found it very annoying when hockey players were interviewed and every other word was "eh"    :)
 
 Excuse me...I'm off to have a cup of Tim Horton's and a dutchie.

sonickteam2

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2005, 11:15:00 am »
<img src="http://www.schillmania.com/photos/35mm/image/collection/miscellaneous/IMGP2922.jpg" alt=" - " />

Frank Gallagher

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2005, 12:49:00 pm »
Are those the two blokes who invented Southpark?
 
 Back to topic....interestingly enough, this was in the Irish Examiner this morning.
 
 The richest sports clubs in the world. (£m)
 
 Manchester United 171.5
 New York Yankees 167.2
 Real Madrid 156.3
 AC Milan 147.2
 Chelski 143.7
 Juventus 142.4
 Washington Redskins 130.0
 Arseholes 115.0
 Barcelona 112.0
 Inter Milan 110.3
 Bayern Munich 110.1
 Liverscum 92.3
 LA Lakers 90.2
 NY Rangers 62.6
 
 Two comments.
 
 1. How can hockey players even begin to expect the same salaries as athletes from other sports, when the biggest club in Hockey....Rangers, are absolute minnows in comparison
 
 2. Remind me again which is the biggest sport in the world?????  :D

kosmo vinyl

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2005, 12:57:00 pm »
It also doesn't help when the US hockey commentatories pale in comparsion to the CBC announcers.  Bob Cole, Harry Neil, Don "The Coach" Cherry, Ron MacLean and Satellite Hotstove were the way to watch Hockey and spend a Saturday Night.  I was spoiled in Detroit because the also had top notch announcers.  Outside of Canada, Detroit and probably NYC, any ex-hockey player who can string two sentances together can get hired as a color guy.
T.Rex

sonickteam2

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2005, 01:14:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
 a color guy.
you mean him?
 
   <img src="http://www.tvtome.com/images/people/148/2/3-32624-sm.jpg" alt=" - " />
 
    i want Gary Thorne to shoot himself in the face. i like Steve Levy though.  Melrose and Clement arent annoying either......no one compares to Don Cherry though!
 
   the boston announcers Gord Kluzak and Dale somebody are ok.  that guy that does the Caps game....makes me want to watch the NBA!!! GASP!
 
 other than that,

sonickteam2

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2005, 01:15:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by O'Mankie:
 
 2. Remind me again which is the biggest sport in the world?????   :D  
didnt you know that America is taking over the world, freeing the opressed citizens, teaching them democracy and giving them baseball gloves!

kosmo vinyl

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Re: And it's over...
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2005, 01:20:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
 
    i want Gary Thorne to shoot himself in the face. i like Steve Levy though.  Melrose and Clement arent annoying either......no one compares to Don Cherry though!
 
   the boston announcers Gord Kluzak and Dale somebody are ok.  that guy that does the Caps game....makes me want to watch the NBA!!! GASP!
 
 other than that,
Melrose is certainly no Don Cherry which I'm sure is what he wants to be...  Gary Thorne also does baseball which is all you really need to know.
 
 Never liked the Caps when I moved here and their commentatories really sealed their fate of me ever even watching them on tv.
T.Rex