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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: HoyaSaxa03 on April 02, 2007, 12:51:00 pm
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A Delicate Dance (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/01/AR2007040101150_pf.html)
Nightclub Bill Seeks to Protect Underage Guests, and D.C. Music Scene
By Keith L. Alexander and Robert Pierre
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, April 2, 2007; B01
D.C. Council member Jim Graham cringes each time he talks about teens in nightclubs, partying until the wee hours alongside 30- and 40-ye ar-olds guzzling beer or sipping trendy cocktails.
Mixing teens with adults and booze , Graham believes, is a recipe for serious trouble.
"What are these kids doing in these places?" he says. "It's just dangerous. Pedophiles, violence, anything could happen to them in there."
To lessen that danger, Graham (D-Ward 1) authored the Youth Protection Bill, which would place greater restrictions on nightclubs that serve alcohol and allow patrons under 18. Those clubs would have to ensure that youths are accompanied by a parent or guardian after 11 p.m. on weeknights and midnight on weekends, or have a $300 annual license that would require an approved security plan. At present, clubs that sell liquor may admit all ages, but only those 21 and older may drink.
Under the bill, if a nightclub owner rented space to an outside promoter, the owner would remain responsible for security. A nightclub could lose its underage privileges if it has two violations, such as selling drinks to minors or selling alcohol after hours, within a two-year period or a pattern of violent incidents.
Concern about violence and nightclubs is a suburban issue, too. On Thursday, Prince George's County officials ordered nine nightclubs shut down, saying they were magnets for violent crime. After a judge allowed five to reopen, at least temporarily, officials said last night that they were planning to cease their efforts to close those clubs as part of an agreement that would include increased security. Three of the remaining four clubs remain closed, and the fourth remains open under a previous court order. Graham worries that troublemakers who frequented the closed clubs might move to D.C. spots.
"If Prince George's County is removing a problem," he said, "the problem isn't going to just vanish. These people will head to the District of Columbia."
Under his legislation, D.C. nightclubs could hire off-duty police officers for inside security. That practice was discontinued in 1999 when some officers were accused of lascivious behavior with customers. The bill also would allow police to charge underage patrons with a misdemeanor if found drinking in a nightclub.
Graham plans to begin distributing the bill to council members and others Wednesday and has scheduled a hearing on it April 18. Mayor Adrian M. Fenty (D) said District laws regarding teens in nightclubs "are much more lenient" than laws in many other cities, and he promised to work with Graham as the legislation moves through the council. The proposal is a result of weeks of negotiations with owners and managers of the District's nightclubs, restaurants and taverns who opposed Graham's original plan to prohibit anyone under 21 from patronizing a club that serves alcohol.
"The music scene of D.C. was built around teens being able to go to clubs and listen to music. If that changed, I'd have to change my entire business plan, and I'm not willing to do that. I'd just shut it down," said Dante Ferrando, owner of the Black Cat, a popular live music club in the District that allows people of any age.
To fight Graham's initial proposal, Ferrando teamed with several other nightclub owners and managers, including Marc Barnes of Love, Jean Homza of the 9:30 Club and Daryle M. Vaughn of the Market Lounge. They, Graham and Alcoholic Beverage Regulation Administration officials gathered for five two-hour meetings around a conference table in an office two doors from Graham's in the John A. Wilson Building.
By the time the meetings concluded last week, both Graham and the club owners got most of what they wanted.
The club owners pushed Graham to include the provision allowing underage drinkers to be charged with a misdemeanor. Owners argued that a nightclub faces fines and temporary or permanent closure if a minor is discovered drinking, while the minor would face only civil penalties.
"The real issue is trying to make sure that these teens aren't going from club to club getting drinks," Barnes said. "A club shuts down because a kid sneaks a drink, and we end up losing millions of dollars, and that kid goes to another club and gets another drink."
"I'm not the criminal," Homza added, "but I'm the one hauled away or fined or shut down. We need these tools in place. Our livelihoods are at stake."
But Graham feared a criminal clause would cause fellow council members to vote against the legislation. Frustrated after much arguing, Graham asked one of the attendees to pull out a quarter: Heads meant the legislation would include criminalizing teens caught drinking in clubs; tails, it wouldn't. Graham flipped the quarter in the air, it landed on the table heads up. Barnes raised his fist in victory: "It's heads. It's heads."
Graham's interest in club security was spurred by the Jan. 20 shooting death of Taleshia Ford, 17, at the now closed Smarta/Broadway, also known as Club 1919, on Ninth Street NW.
Ford's sister Michalyn Smith, 20, said she started going to nightclubs when she was 16. She said it was "so easy" for girls her age to get a drink. "All it takes is a male," she explained. "A guy that is over 21 and wants to talk to you or one of your friends. . . . Or just tipping the bartender an extra $10," Smith said. "It doesn't make sense at all, some of these guys who just want to get a teenage girl drunk and take advantage of them."
In February, bartenders at the Cada Vez nightclub on U Street served a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old alcohol, according to the city's liquor control board. The teens were part of a weekly undercover sting operation. The club manager, Wei Zhou, said it will no longer host all-ages events. A board hearing is pending. Since Jan. 1, 47 establishments have been cited for serving underage patrons alcohol. Last year, 117 businesses were cited.
Although Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier praised Graham for trying to make nightclubs safer, she does not fully support charging underage drinkers or placing armed police officers in nightclubs. Lanier said she worried about having armed officers in nightclubs because of the dangers associated with having firearms in a closed environment. "But I don't have a problem with officers outside the club," she said.
There is no standard set of security procedures that clubs are required to follow.
"You have to protect these kids like they're your own," said Abdul Khanu, owner of Platinum, one of the city's most popular under-21 venues for hip-hop lovers, at Ninth and F streets NW.
Watching Out for Trouble
On a recent Saturday night inside Platinum, which has marble floors and chandelier-studded ceilings, the disc jockey spun the latest hip-hop tune by Kelis as Melanie Dudley stood along the wall holding a small glass of cranberry juice with a splash of ginger ale. "Maybe they'll think there's something in it," she said, laughing.
"Yeah, cranberries," snapped Dudley's cousin Tanisha Hawkins. "That big ol' X on the back of your hand busts your game wide open, so stop frontin'."
A black X stretched from Dudley's knuckles to her wrist -- on each hand. It's Platinum's mark of "underage." She just turned 18. The X was her ticket to mingle -- but not drink -- with the legal-age partiers sipping Hpnotiq and cosmopolitans.
Inside, at least six linebacker-size security guards dressed in black mixed with partiers, shining mini-flashlights into faces on the dance floor and from the balcony.
Outside the popular club, whose customers have included such celebrities as Sean "Diddy" Combs and LeBron James, security is tight. Patrons go through lines, segregated by sex, in which they are patted down by security guards who check their identification. If customers are at least 21, they get a green plastic bracelet around their wrist. If they're under 21, the guard makes the X with a black magic marker. They walk a few feet, and another security guard outlines their body with a metal detection wand. Depending on the night, up to 30 percent of Platinum's crowd is between 18 and 20.
A group of five young men who walked up to the line wearing jeans, baseball caps and Timberlands were turned away. One of the security guards later said that when groups of young men dressed casually arrive together like that, they often stir up trouble.
While Platinum's DJs draw hip-hop lovers, the Black Cat is one of the more popular spots for teens to listen to live bands and other performers.
On a recent night on bustling 14th Street NW near Logan Circle, the alt-rock band Telograph was on the Black Cat's main stage, jamming at ear-spitting levels. The club is an underground-music magnet. Radiohead, Rancid, the Strokes and other big-time bands have played here.
Depending on the night and the band playing, about 30 percent of the Black Cat's audience is under 21. Everyone must show identification and pay $5 to $20 depending on the band. The underage and those over 21 without identification get their hands marked with a large black X. Unlike at Platinum, there is no frisking of Black Cat club-goers. Instead, a security guard checks identification. Inside, plainclothes security officers patrol the dance floors and bars looking for underage drinkers.
'We Need the City Involved'
Graham's call for adults to accompany club patrons younger than 18 is nothing new for Patrice Alsobrooks. Whenever her nieces head off to a club to hear local go-go bands, she accompanies the 12-, 13- and 16-year-olds to hear the heavy drum, cowbell and conga-laced music.
Alsobrooks, 22, a youth counselor who lives in Northeast Washington, said her nieces learn about where such popular teen go-go bands as Third Dimension and Trinidad Bomb Squad play from fliers that promoters distribute at high schools in Northeast and Southeast. The bands have performed at such places as the D.C. Tunnel, Market Lounge and Sparta/Broadway -- where Ford was shot.
"They want to hear the music, and I'm there to make sure that nothing happens. It's just music. But instead of relying on the clubs to keep them safe, I go with them," Alsobrooks said.
But since Ford's fatal shooting, many clubs in the District have stopped having all-ages go-gos.
Daryle Vaughn holds Saturday early-evening go-gos at the Market Lounge on Fifth Street NE, above the D.C. Farmers Market. To reduce the threat of violence, Vaughn instituted a policy: No one under 17 is allowed inside after 10 p.m., and no alcohol is served before then.
Yet even such strict policies don't always work. Last year, during a summer go-go concert that began at 2 p.m., violence broke out at the Market Lounge. A 14-year-old girl and a 13-year-old boy were shot in the legs, and a 17-year-old youth was pistol-whipped.
Vaughn believes the new legislation would support clubs that are trying to create a safe environment for teens.
"Some of us out here are trying to do the right thing. We need the police involved. We need the city involved," he said. "I'm just glad we're doing something to deal with this, the right way."
Staff writers Sandhya Somashekhar and Megan Greenwell contributed to this report.
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checkout the comments to the article, some really funny stuff in there
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Originally posted by Double Hoya:
But Graham feared a criminal clause would cause fellow council members to vote against the legislation. Frustrated after much arguing, Graham asked one of the attendees to pull out a quarter: Heads meant the legislation would include criminalizing teens caught drinking in clubs; tails, it wouldn't. Graham flipped the quarter in the air, it landed on the table heads up. Barnes raised his fist in victory: "It's heads. It's heads."
sweet - so that's how our legislators are deciding policy? on second thought, it beats them trying to use their brains... that when DC's insane parking policies and "no child left behind" shit comes flying forth.
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If only this idiot Graham would put as much energy into protecting these same teens from all of the violence they are subjected to in the schools rather than the minute amount at any of these clubs!
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I've always said clubs should be 18 and over. Or if not that, 16 and over and shows should be done by 10 on a school night. Blah blah blah.
But what I'm really wondering is who is responsible for voting this creepy guy into office? Who actually wants this cartoonish looking man to represent them in any facet of life?
<img src="http://www.thecommondenominator.com/jim-graham.jpg" alt=" - " />
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this is fucked up.
i don't know how many times it needs to be said, but REMOVING TEENS DOES NOTHING WITH THE VIOLENCE. nothing.
my next question is, are Black Cat and 9:30 and Rock N Roll Hotel and DC9 (who have been having, on occasion, all ages shows) going to acquire that $300 all-ages license?
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Separated At Birth?
<img src="http://www.thecommondenominator.com/jim-graham.jpg" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/team_dupek/th_48230be9.jpg" alt=" - " />
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I don't think they're as worried about teens causing violence as they are being victims of it.
Originally posted by you be betty:
this is fucked up.
i don't know how many times it needs to be said, but REMOVING TEENS DOES NOTHING WITH THE VIOLENCE. nothing.
my next question is, are Black Cat and 9:30 and Rock N Roll Hotel and DC9 (who have been having, on occasion, all ages shows) going to acquire that $300 all-ages license?
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Originally posted by you be betty:
my next question is, are Black Cat and 9:30 and Rock N Roll Hotel and DC9 (who have been having, on occasion, all ages shows) going to acquire that $300 all-ages license?
My guess, those who are financially stable and/or stand to lose any kind of profits from losing a portion of their patronage will fork out that money for the license. Those clubs barely breaking even or not feeling like taking the chance, won't. Bottom line, I suspect a lot will just give in and start banning more underaged people. Obviously, Dante is in your corner and Seth sure seems to be based on his history so I would suspect that the Cat and the 9:30 will do whatever it takes, within reason. Don't have a clue about the H St/DC9 and other venues but I think they already have some kind of age limits as it is. Not sure since I usually don't have to keep up on that. Maybe you and your club going friends should make your support and concerns known to them now before it's too late.
You're right Betty, that bullet could have just as easily hit someone over 21 which would have made this a whole different issue. Typical politician, takes the easy way out of resolving a problem, all in the name of 'the children'.
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my friends and i have made it an issue...i wrote a testimony...i e-mailed, like, 30 of those jackasses...i rallied up support...but when it all boils down, they are going to do what they want. it helped, but obviously not enough.
it is apparent that they are trying to look like the good guys by protecting the children, yes, but it isn't doing anything for the violence. the only thing they have discovered in all of this aftermath is how easy it supposedly is for some kids to get served at some of the clubs. it still doesn't solve the problem of shooting. it still doesn't stop kids from getting shot.
sober kids can - and will - get shot, too.
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Not if they're at home reading a good book, or doing chores or working around the neighborhood to earn college tuition money.
Originally posted by you be betty:
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sober kids can - and will - get shot, too.
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If it were up to the Rhett/Graham type, no one would be allowed to spring forth from the womb until they were of voting age. :roll: It's a good thing that the fertility goddess, The Vessel, won't be having any of that! (I would assume.)
Betty, during your appeals, always remember to remind these vote whores that you will be voting very soon and will remember where they stood on these issues. Also remember, these are often the very same people who think nothing of arming these same kids and sending them off to very possibly die amongst many more dangers than what normally goes on in any DC club. It worked during the Vietnam era so use it again now. Of course , they even lowered the drinking age itself back then! All you and your friends are trying to do is enjoy a show, sans alchohol.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Not if they're at home reading a good book, or doing chores or working around the neighborhood to earn college tuition money.
Originally posted by you be betty:
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sober kids can - and will - get shot, too.
[/b]
That's bullshit Rhett. It's very sad that girl got shot, but she is the only underage person killed in a club. More kids have been shot at home or on school property than in clubs.
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Originally posted by twangirl:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Not if they're at home reading a good book, or doing chores or working around the neighborhood to earn college tuition money.
Originally posted by you be betty:
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sober kids can - and will - get shot, too.
[/b]
That's bullshit Rhett. It's very sad that girl got shot, but she is the only underage person killed in a club. More kids have been shot at home or on school property than in clubs. [/b]
And furthermore, what the fuck are you trying to do? Suffocate us?
I have sat at home and read plenty of good books and still have the time to attend shows on a regular basis.
I went to the Black Cat for the first time when I was 13 and met two of the best people I know who I am still very close with now.
I had a lot of issues when I was younger and I honestly feel that meeting who I met in those crucial years and being taken in by all the incredible people involved in the DC scene and KNOWING that there were other people into the same stuff that I was - meeting other passionate people who I could talk to and relate to a hell of a lot better than most of the kids in Bethesda...it probably saved my life. I can easily credit music to saving my life.
And I know plenty of other kids who were in the same boat as me. The possibility that future generations of kids won't have the same opportunities that I had freaks me out. We have a really wonderful thing happening in this city (at least, when it isn't contaminated by elitist hipster scum) and to lose it to some warped politics would be completely...I cannot even express...
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Not if they're at home reading a good book, or doing chores or working around the neighborhood to earn college tuition money.
Originally posted by you be betty:
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sober kids can - and will - get shot, too.
[/b]
Yeah because there's not been any kids shot and/or killed on school grounds where the city gov't tries to make the schools "safe" to protect them. They've failed on so many levels with this and it's backfiring.
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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How did music save your life? WEre you suicidal? You're such a drama queen.
Originally posted by you be betty:
Originally posted by twangirl:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Not if they're at home reading a good book, or doing chores or working around the neighborhood to earn college tuition money.
Originally posted by you be betty:
.
sober kids can - and will - get shot, too.
[/b]
That's bullshit Rhett. It's very sad that girl got shot, but she is the only underage person killed in a club. More kids have been shot at home or on school property than in clubs. [/b]
And furthermore, what the fuck are you trying to do? Suffocate us?
I have sat at home and read plenty of good books and still have the time to attend shows on a regular basis.
I went to the Black Cat for the first time when I was 13 and met two of the best people I know who I am still very close with now.
I had a lot of issues when I was younger and I honestly feel that meeting who I met in those crucial years and being taken in by all the incredible people involved in the DC scene and KNOWING that there were other people into the same stuff that I was - meeting other passionate people who I could talk to and relate to a hell of a lot better than most of the kids in Bethesda...it probably saved my life. I can easily credit music to saving my life.
And I know plenty of other kids who were in the same boat as me. The possibility that future generations of kids won't have the same opportunities that I had freaks me out. We have a really wonderful thing happening in this city (at least, when it isn't contaminated by elitist hipster scum) and to lose it to some warped politics would be completely...I cannot even express... [/b]
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right. clearly, i'm a drama queen.
i'd rather not go into specific detail, but you can trust the fact that i'm telling the truth.
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I watched some of the DC Council hearlings Jim Graham held on this issue (thanks to the magic of TVs on ellipticals). And I was extremely impressed and proud of the folks - from high school kids to older folks - who very articulately explained how meaningful access to the local music scene is to them. Mr. Graham seemed to get it. Apparently he didn't. Which is sad, pathetic or tragic depending on your age and connection to the issue.
Let's be completely honest. Jim Graham is not motivated by solving any real issue here. This is about him. This is about him making a name for himself. Not to get off point but his anal-retentive-chic style of dress suggests to me an air of self importance - a misguided self-importance.
Therre is no connection between a sketchy club like 919 and typical music clubs. If he's worried about violence - put cops on the street - which is where the shooting occurred. Hold clubs where incidents occur.
DC can be a really tedius place to grow up. Much is defined by lame self-important d-bags. But its a smart place. And if you're drawn to music there a freedom to explore that - and connect with others with similar interests. Now, we have a self-important d-bag who wants to drain the pool because someone took a crap in the urinal across the street. Its infuriating.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
How did music save your life? WEre you suicidal? You're such a drama queen.
I like how out of all the things said since you're last idiotic post, the only thing you respond to is Betty being overly dramatic. Not twaingirl's sensibly showing your argument to be one huge logical fallacy, oh no; you won't respond to that.
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Jenny said, when she was just five years old
You know theres nothin happening at all
Every time she put on the radio
There was nothin goin down at all
Not at all
One fine mornin, she puts on a new york station
And she couldnt believe what she heard at all
She started dancin to that fine-fine-fine-fine music
Ooohhh, her life was saved by rock n roll
Hey baby, rock n roll
Despite all the amputation
You could dance to a rock n roll station
And it was all right
It was all right
Hey babe
Jenny said, when she was just five years old
You know theres nothin happening at all
Two tv sets, two cadillac cars
Ahhh, hey, aint help me nothin at all
Not at all
One fine morning, she heard on a new york station
She couldnt believe what she heard at all
Not at all
Despite the amputation
You could dance to a rock n roll station
It was all right
It was all right
Oh, now here she comes now-now
Jenny said, when she was just five years old
You know theres nothin happening at all
Yeah, every time she put on the radio
There was nothin goin down at all
Not at all
Then one fine morning, she put on a new york station
And she couldnt believe what she heard at all
She started dancing to that fine-fine music
Ahh, her life was saved by rock n roll
Rock n roll
Despite all the amputation
You could dance to the rock n roll station
Its all right, all right
All right, all right
All right, its all right
All right, all right
Baby, baby
Baby, baby, ooohhh
ps - Rhett, don't be a dick.
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yes Lou Reed ALWAYS saves th e day
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Originally posted by Mobius:
Therre is no connection between a sketchy club like 919 and typical music clubs.
Of course there is - The laws that govern them. That makes for tricky situations sometimes.
DC can be a really tedius place to grow up.
No - Bumf-ck, Iowa is a tedious place to grow up. If you can't find way to entertain yourself in DC, you're not looking very hard.
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Originally posted by Bombay Chutney:
No - Bumf-ck, Iowa is a tedious place to grow up. If you can't find way to entertain yourself in DC, you're not looking very hard. [/b]
Bingo
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by the way, is Nightclub Bill friends with Downtown Bob?
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Originally posted by Mobius:
Let's be completely honest. Jim Graham is not motivated by solving any real issue here. This is about him. This is about him making a name for himself. Not to get off point but his anal-retentive-chic style of dress suggests to me an air of self importance - a misguided self-importance.
Therre is no connection between a sketchy club like 919 and typical music clubs. If he's worried about violence - put cops on the street - which is where the shooting occurred. Hold clubs where incidents occur.
I've had several shows booked at Club Lime with the downstairs part of the venue holds weekly go-gos. No violence, cops on site, IDs being checked...you know the things responsible club holders do.
I think each week the City Paper should have a Jim Graham section since he wants to be such a media whore. The City Paper loves Jim so much after he stormed into the Chief Editor's office. hehe
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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That's because none of the followups really addressed my point, and I didn't feel like addressing the points of the followups.
My point was that there are plenty of other things for children to do in the world, other than hanging out late on a weeknight in an adult nightclub. Most American children don't even have the option to hang out in an adult nightclub, and yet they manage to survive their childhood years quite fine. Betty, it's precisely BECAUSE you live in Bethesda that you even have the opportunity as a child to hang out in an adult nightclub. Try living in rural Nebraska.
Now if you insist that I address the followups, which really didn't address my initial point, I will. What hard statistics prove that a child staying at home on a weeknight is going to be in less danger than a child spending the night in an adult nightclub? I have seen none. Really, you're not comparing apples with apples. Every child in America spends time at home nearly every night of the week. Only a small fraction spends time in an adult nightclub. I don't really see how you could compare violence rates for the two, even if there were rates that had been tabulated. Of course more children are killed at home than in adult nightclubs. Because 99% of kids are at home nearly every night, whereas 99% of children never set foot in an adult nightclub, and for those who do, it's most likely occasionally.
If we're going to let ourselves make up the statistics, here's mine. I've probably been to the 9:30 Club for perhaps 25 concerts. Once, while minding my own business, a blindly drunk guy, unprovoked, pushed my girlfriend, kicked me, and smashed a bottle over my head. Another time, a blindly drunk guy, unprovoked, started biting my ass repeatedly. Based on my observations, I have a 2/25 chance of being attacked at the 9:30 Club. Whereas in 40x365 days of living, I have been physically attacked unprovoked only once outside of a nightclub...and not even once in my 25 years of being a student, grad student, and public and private school teacher. Geez, I guess that's undeniable proof that adult nightclubs are more dangerous than being in ones house or at school, right?
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
How did music save your life? WEre you suicidal? You're such a drama queen.
I like how out of all the things said since you're last idiotic post, the only thing you respond to is Betty being overly dramatic. Not twaingirl's sensibly showing your argument to be one huge logical fallacy, oh no; you won't respond to that. [/b]
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if we eliminate rawk clubs, every teenager in the dc area will stay home every night. why didnt we think of this sooner
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
I have a 2/25 chance of being attacked at the 9:30 Club.
I think that says far more about you than the club :D
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Originally posted by They call me Doctor Doom.:
by the way, is Nightclub Bill friends with Downtown Bob?
damn you !! you stole my witty reply to this post!!! i've been laughing about "nightclub bill" over here for several minutes straight. he sounds like some kind of super-hero, protecting people from violence, secondhand smoke and other various pitfalls of going out in public!!
does he have a cape?
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I don't think anyone would logically argue against that, but doesn't the mere fact that the 9:30 Club is "all ages, all the time" mean that it's NOT an adult club?
Of course, that's not to gloss over the real point of your post. A man assaulted you by repeatedly biting your ass????
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
My point was that there are plenty of other things for children to do in the world, other than hanging out late on a weeknight in an adult nightclub.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Try living in rural Nebraska.
yeah, THOSE kids turn out fine!!
<img src="http://www.stanford.edu/~bckerr/about/Hick.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Personally, I feel like establishments that serve liquor should be 18+ for entrance and 21 to drink. Thus, in my mind it is an adult nightclub.
But you're right, my main point, the assbiting incident. It happened at the last Drive By Truckers 9:30 show. I mentioned in on the thread for the show, and someone else actually confirmed seeing it happen (so it's not my imagination!). There was a drunk guy who was grabbing and harassing the women standing near us on the balcony. Doing my best NOT to get involved (so as to avoid a fracas and potentially lose our standing position and miss the show), I ignored what was going on, until the guy started repeatedly biting my ass. I turned around and slapped him in the head, and he stopped...so I turned around and started watching the show again. Next thing I knew, out of the side of my eye, I saw 9:30 staph grab him and haul his ass away. Not sure if someone had alerted them, or if they just had a good eye.
Originally posted by nkotb:
I don't think anyone would logically argue against that, but doesn't the mere fact that the 9:30 Club is "all ages, all the time" mean that it's NOT an adult club?
Of course, that's not to gloss over the real point of your post. A man assaulted you by repeatedly biting your ass????
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
My point was that there are plenty of other things for children to do in the world, other than hanging out late on a weeknight in an adult nightclub.
[/b]
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what show was the bottle incident?
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Why, were you the perpetrator?
It was a Cracker/Camper combo show.
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
what show was the bottle incident?
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i wish!
nah, nothing like that has ever happened to me at 930, and i was also at the dbt show. just curious about the other, more extreme incident
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Your argument is further discredited by the fact that you have not even told us WHY they should be 21+. Other than the fact that you are quite possibly a huge asshole, or just have something against teenagers having the opportunity to live a good life, for some reason.
The DC music scene has always thrived upon the all-ages aesthetic. Ian Mackaye was 17 YEARS OLD when the Teen Idles began. 18 with Minor Threat. Part of the culture and appeal of this music scene is the fact that it is accessible to kids of all-ages, and it always has been. I'm really sorry if you don't like kids, but regardless, most of what we have today wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for those teenagers attending and playing the shows that they played in the late 70s.
I don't know why you see something wrong with giving kids an outlet. They aren't stopping you from drinking or having a good time at shows. If they are, you are far too easily irritable.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone gets something really valuable out of what we have, and it's safe, why the hell deny that of them?
I had a lot of friends into some pretty hard drugs at a young age and I never touched a drug in my life because I spent my time away from them with my new straightedge friends in DC (...this, by the way, had nothing to do with saving my life). I avoid a lot of stupid drunk high school parties now because I'd rather spend my time sober, seeing a nice band, with other sober people who are into the same music as me. I do better in school when I'm happy and involved in something that I like. I'll probably get admitted to college because of my concert photography. And there isn't anything wrong with that. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that.
And by the way, a kid at my school was almost killed three weeks ago when he was hit by a schoolbus crossing right out front of our school to go home. Real fucking safe.
Nebraska, also, has a quite nice indie music scene...
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
not even once in my 25 years of being a student, grad student, and public and private school teacher.
I call "bullshit" on that.
There is absolutely no way that a whiny little bitch like you made it through elementary, middle, and high school without ever getting the snot kicked out of him.
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You would be wrong. In high school I did have one scuffle with a jock who called me a "faggot" because of the way I wore my hair, but that was about it. That was broken up before I was able to finish him off.
And my point was that I've only been attacked UNPROVOKED once. If my alleged "whining" had gotten me into an incident (which it didn't), it would have been provoked.
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
not even once in my 25 years of being a student, grad student, and public and private school teacher.
I call "bullshit" on that.
There is absolutely no way that a whiny little bitch like you made it through elementary, middle, and high school without ever getting the snot kicked out of him. [/b]
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
[QB] You would be wrong. In high school I did have one scuffle with a jock who called me a "faggot" because of the way I wore my hair, but that was about it. That was broken up before I was able to finish him off.
<img src="http://snp.bpb.de/referate/mk4.gif" alt=" - " />
Mindcage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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dude, rhett, you are a loser....just get over it and lets move on to another topic.
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Sonick, Nightclub Bill would definitely wear a cape. :)
Rhett, I have been to zillions of club shows since I was 16 and not once have I ever been involved in any kind of altercation. It *must* be something you are doing!
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Sure, blame the victim. Just like random women must be doing something to get themselves raped, as opposed to the random women who don't get raped.
Originally posted by They call me Doctor Doom.:
Sonick, Nightclub Bill would definitely wear a cape. :)
Rhett, I have been to zillions of club shows since I was 16 and not once have I ever been involved in any kind of altercation. It *must* be something you are doing!
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Originally posted by you be betty:
The DC music scene has always thrived upon the all-ages aesthetic. Ian Mackaye was 17 YEARS OLD when the Teen Idles began. 18 with Minor Threat. Part of the culture and appeal of this music scene is the fact that it is accessible to kids of all-ages, and it always has been.
I'm really sorry if you don't like kids, but regardless, most of what we have today wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for those teenagers attending and playing the shows that they played in the late 70s.
Well, I don't believe it "always has been" this way. Those kids had to really work at it to get things to the point where it's just commonplace now. And I'd like to point out that the drinking age was 18 at the time. I think that made a difference in allowing kids into shows in the early days. There wasn't as huge of an age-gap between the kids and the legal age where they'd be coming in anyway.
I don't know why you see something wrong with giving kids an outlet.
I'm generally on your side here, betty, but you make it sound like this is the ONLY outlet kids have. Like there's absolutely nothing else to do around here. As if it weren't for nightclubs, everybody under the age of 21 would be sitting at home all night every night. That argument doesn't really hold up well in a city like DC.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Sure, blame the victim. Just like random women must be doing something to get themselves raped, as opposed to the random women who don't get raped.
Yes, because a physical assault and rape are completely the same thing, carried out by the same people, and for the same reasons.
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Really, you're not comparing apples with apples.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Sure, blame the victim. Just like random women must be doing something to get themselves raped, as opposed to the random women who don't get raped.
I wouldn't have made that connection, but I guess your ass biting episode might be considered sexual assault...
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What is the difference? They are both physical attacks where the main motivation is to assert power. Rape has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with violence.
And in the case of someone attacking someone else by biting their ass, is that not sexual assault?
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Sure, blame the victim. Just like random women must be doing something to get themselves raped, as opposed to the random women who don't get raped.
Yes, because a physical assault and rape are completely the same thing, carried out by the same people, and for the same reasons.
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Really, you're not comparing apples with apples.
[/b]
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
What is the difference? They are both physical attacks where the main motivation is to assert power. Rape has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with violence.
All sorts of people are goaded into physical confrontations. Someone calls someone's wife a whore or shoves them in the middle of an argument and many - if not most - people will slug them that person in the face.
Most people, on the other hand, do not respond to a woman walking by in a lowcut dress with pushing her to the ground and raping her.
The difference is sometimes people completely deserved getting punched in the face, whereas never does anyone deserve getting raped. If you hang out with drug dealers or gangsters, gee, you might get assaulted. It doesn't make it right, but you share some culpability.
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I agree. But in both my cases, as well as the time I was mugged, I was attacked, unprovoked, by complete surprise from behind by someone who I didn't even see.
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
What is the difference? They are both physical attacks where the main motivation is to assert power. Rape has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with violence.
All sorts of people are goaded into physical confrontations. Someone calls someone's wife a whore or shoves them in the middle of an argument and many - if not most - people will slug them that person in the face.
Most people, on the other hand, do not respond to a woman walking by in a lowcut dress with pushing her to the ground and raping her.
The difference is sometimes people completely deserved getting punched in the face, whereas never does anyone deserve getting raped. If you hang out with drug dealers or gangsters, gee, you might get assaulted. It doesn't make it right, but you share some culpability. [/b]
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heh... Rhett, years ago there was a letter to the Washington Post that became famous. It was by a guy who proudly said he always drove 55 miles an hour on the Beltway, even while in the left lane, because it was his right.
He went on to say that he had been rear ended several times, and that this proved how many bad drivers were out there.
You remind me of that guy. :)
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rhett, shut the fuck up.
stop pretending people care about your life.
besides, nightclub bill is getting ticked off that you've hijacked his thread comparing a drunk altercation at a concert to a rape!
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Originally posted by Bombay Chutney:
I don't know why you see something wrong with giving kids an outlet.
I'm generally on your side here, betty, but you make it sound like this is the ONLY outlet kids have. Like there's absolutely nothing else to do around here. As if it weren't for nightclubs, everybody under the age of 21 would be sitting at home all night every night. That argument doesn't really hold up well in a city like DC. [/b]
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound that way. It's obviously not the only outlet for some kids, but it can definitely be a main outlet that some people really connect with. There are plenty of other things to do, and I wouldn't deny that. But there are also a lot of worse things that I could have done with myself than what I chose to spend my time doing.
Sometimes, for some people, there just isn't anything else that feels as good as connecting with music. This is one way of doing that. Sitting at home playing guitar is another way to do it. But for me, it's not the same.
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They would have been fine if they had just stayed home and read a good book or did chores around the house.
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Sure, blame the victim. Just like random women must be doing something to get themselves raped, as opposed to the random women who don't get raped.
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Why would you purposely choose the "lot of worse things"? There are plenty of things you could choose that are as equally constructive, equally entertaining, and equal in social opportunity. Why not choose those things?
You make it sound like the only two choices a teen has is to be part of the straightedge indie rock scene or get shitfaced every night of the week.
Why does your choosing a healthy way of life have to hinge on being part of a music scene?
And I'm not trying to be an asshole by asking, I'm simply curious.
Originally posted by you be betty:
There are plenty of other things to do, and I wouldn't deny that. But there are also a lot of worse things that I could have done with myself than what I chose to spend my time doing.
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Take Rhett, as an example. He spent his teen years in leadership roles at his local 4-H chapter; where he received accolades for his prowess in animal husbandry and his special recipe for 'smores.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Why would you purposely choose the "lot of worse things"? There are plenty of things you could choose that are as equally constructive, equally entertaining, and equal in social opportunity. Why not choose those things?
You make it sound like the only two choices a teen has is to be part of the straightedge indie rock scene or get shitfaced every night of the week.
Why does your choosing a healthy way of life have to hinge on being part of a music scene?
And I'm not trying to be an asshole by asking, I'm simply curious.
Originally posted by you be betty:
There are plenty of other things to do, and I wouldn't deny that. But there are also a lot of worse things that I could have done with myself than what I chose to spend my time doing.
[/b]
It doesn't. You don't think I do those other things, too? When I'm not working my ass off to get awesome grades in challenging classes, I tutor younger kids. I read A LOT (yes, outside of school). I go for walks every day. I photograph. I take art classes. I spend most of my saturdays of the year sewing. I eat dinner in stupid overpriced Bethesda restauraunts with my friends. I watch tv. I paint or sketch every day (outside of school and extra art classes, on my own time). I, too, go to parties and on occasion get shitfaced.
Oh, but you know what, I still like going to shows more than almost all of those things. There's nothing wrong with that, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that.
It's another option. There is no point whatsoever in taking that away.
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middle class upstate new york farmboy, meet rich spoiled dc suburbanite girl
now shake hands and make up already.
:roll:
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I'm not spoiled.
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Originally posted by you be betty:
I'm not spoiled.
sorry, privileged. ;)
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Originally posted by you be betty:
It's another option. There is no point whatsoever in taking that away.
you are right. . .however, graham can't simply introduce a bill limiting the ability of kids to go to go-go clubs (even though I think those are supposed to be 18+, perhaps enforcing a law already on the books would be a better option, no?) and their like because that would be racist since it would single out a particular type of establishment that caters to a particular race, even though that's where the violence occurs. instead, he has to make the bill constitutional, and apply it evenly across everyone. we wouldn't want our government to do racial profiling, now would we?
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So why don't they beef up security at ALL nightclubs and back the fuck off?
(Don't answer that. I know it costs money. I know people don't like spending money. But maybe this whole license thing should include some degree of mandatory security check, or something.)
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Actually, I have nothing against Betty. While I may not agree with her opinions all the time, I do admire her spunk and passion, and I could do a lot worse than having a daughter grow up to be like her (or her as she portrays herself on the board). My hope is that I have a daughter who is passionate about her interests, but also respects the wishes and limits imposed by her loving parents. My concern as a parent would be for the safety of my child, as well as for my child getting enough sleep. The safety concern would be more the issue of being on the streets late at night than it would be in the concert venue itself. When shows end on weekdays beyond midnight, that's a bit too late for a child to be staying out when they have to be at school and on the ball the next day at 7:30.
And I agree that it's not the politicians who should be laying down the law. It's the parents who should be. But we're now in a society where parents feel like their most important role is to be their child's friend rather than their child's parent. Where it's all about being the coolest mom and dad.
Originally posted by le sonick:
middle class upstate new york farmboy, meet rich spoiled dc suburbanite girl
now shake hands and make up already.
:roll:
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man, the days when we as 16 year olds could play the 930 club, and the 930 club unwittingly gave us booze as they did for any other rockstars, except we were "straight edge" and thus gave our complimentary booze to the audience, thus pissing off the staph, appear gone for good...
in all seriousness, it would be nice if the approach DC took would be to try harder to make go-go, where one finds many of the problems, safe for its large African-American audience rather than restricting kids. Go-go is as much an outlet for the city's youth as any other form of music, it's a hallowed DC tradition, and there is nothing inherently violent about it.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
it's all about being the coolest mom and dad.
You've got nothing to worry about on that score....
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Actually, I have nothing against Betty. While I may not agree with her opinions all the time, I do admire her spunk and passion, and I could do a lot worse than having a daughter grow up to be like her (or her as she portrays herself on the board). My hope is that I have a daughter who is passionate about her interests, but also respects the wishes and limits imposed by her loving parents. My concern as a parent would be for the safety of my child, as well as for my child getting enough sleep. The safety concern would be more the issue of being on the streets late at night than it would be in the concert venue itself. When shows end on weekdays beyond midnight, that's a bit too late for a child to be staying out when they have to be at school and on the ball the next day at 7:30.
And I agree that it's not the politicians who should be laying down the law. It's the parents who should be. But we're now in a society where parents feel like their most important role is to be their child's friend rather than their child's parent. Where it's all about being the coolest mom and dad.
Originally posted by le sonick:
middle class upstate new york farmboy, meet rich spoiled dc suburbanite girl
now shake hands and make up already.
:roll:
[/b]
Do you think I go to shows on school nights?
Because I'm not allowed to. I have never been allowed to. Not even early shows, not even to go see an opener and be home by 8pm.
It has only happened three times in history. Two of those three were because my parents told me I could go if I got straight A's, and so I did.
A few weeks ago I was put on the goddamn guest list for a sold out show of one of my favorite bands, and my mom STILL wouldn't let me go because it was on a weeknight. It wasn't the first time. My parents are hardly taking the "cool" route.
My dad rarely says yes to a show. My mom lets me go sometimes, because she knows I work hard, she knows it is important to me, and she trusts me.
Do you know I haven't been to the Black Cat since last June? And I have only been to 9:30 once since last June, and that was only for a two hour soundcheck in the afternoon. They weren't letting me go to stuff because I had the SAT's to deal with, and then I was completely banned from shows because of the shooting. It's just now that I might be allowed to start going to stuff again.
But I don't know where you got this impression of me that I was running around freely all over U Street at four in the morning. My parents are extremely authoritarian. And when I go to a show, I get dropped off at the door and picked up at the door.
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Sounds like you have sensible parents who set sensible limits.
Originally posted by you be betty:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Actually, I have nothing against Betty. While I may not agree with her opinions all the time, I do admire her spunk and passion, and I could do a lot worse than having a daughter grow up to be like her (or her as she portrays herself on the board). My hope is that I have a daughter who is passionate about her interests, but also respects the wishes and limits imposed by her loving parents. My concern as a parent would be for the safety of my child, as well as for my child getting enough sleep. The safety concern would be more the issue of being on the streets late at night than it would be in the concert venue itself. When shows end on weekdays beyond midnight, that's a bit too late for a child to be staying out when they have to be at school and on the ball the next day at 7:30.
And I agree that it's not the politicians who should be laying down the law. It's the parents who should be. But we're now in a society where parents feel like their most important role is to be their child's friend rather than their child's parent. Where it's all about being the coolest mom and dad.
Originally posted by le sonick:
middle class upstate new york farmboy, meet rich spoiled dc suburbanite girl
now shake hands and make up already.
:roll:
[/b]
Do you think I go to shows on school nights?
Because I'm not allowed to. I have never been allowed to. Not even early shows, not even to go see an opener and be home by 8pm.
It has only happened three times in history. Two of those three were because my parents told me I could go if I got straight A's, and so I did.
A few weeks ago I was put on the goddamn guest list for a sold out show of one of my favorite bands, and my mom STILL wouldn't let me go because it was on a weeknight. It wasn't the first time. My parents are hardly taking the "cool" route.
My dad rarely says yes to a show. My mom lets me go sometimes, because she knows I work hard, she knows it is important to me, and she trusts me.
Do you know I haven't been to the Black Cat since last June? And I have only been to 9:30 once since last June, and that was only for a two hour soundcheck in the afternoon. They weren't letting me go to stuff because I had the SAT's to deal with, and then I was completely banned from shows because of the shooting. It's just now that I might be allowed to start going to stuff again.
But I don't know where you got this impression of me that I was running around freely all over U Street at four in the morning. My parents are extremely authoritarian. And when I go to a show, I get dropped off at the door and picked up at the door. [/b]
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If only I'd learn to like post-punk singers, insread of calling it what it is, "crap". :D
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
it's all about being the coolest mom and dad.
You've got nothing to worry about on that score.... [/b]
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...and that's the point I was trying to make all along.
I am a responsible kid. I know my limits. My parents are REALLY strict. But I can still go out to a show and be perfectly safe and have a good time. Why take that away from me?
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Sounds like you have sensible parents who set sensible limits.
Originally posted by you be betty:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Actually, I have nothing against Betty. While I may not agree with her opinions all the time, I do admire her spunk and passion, and I could do a lot worse than having a daughter grow up to be like her (or her as she portrays herself on the board). My hope is that I have a daughter who is passionate about her interests, but also respects the wishes and limits imposed by her loving parents. My concern as a parent would be for the safety of my child, as well as for my child getting enough sleep. The safety concern would be more the issue of being on the streets late at night than it would be in the concert venue itself. When shows end on weekdays beyond midnight, that's a bit too late for a child to be staying out when they have to be at school and on the ball the next day at 7:30.
And I agree that it's not the politicians who should be laying down the law. It's the parents who should be. But we're now in a society where parents feel like their most important role is to be their child's friend rather than their child's parent. Where it's all about being the coolest mom and dad.
Originally posted by le sonick:
middle class upstate new york farmboy, meet rich spoiled dc suburbanite girl
now shake hands and make up already.
:roll:
[/b]
Do you think I go to shows on school nights?
Because I'm not allowed to. I have never been allowed to. Not even early shows, not even to go see an opener and be home by 8pm.
It has only happened three times in history. Two of those three were because my parents told me I could go if I got straight A's, and so I did.
A few weeks ago I was put on the goddamn guest list for a sold out show of one of my favorite bands, and my mom STILL wouldn't let me go because it was on a weeknight. It wasn't the first time. My parents are hardly taking the "cool" route.
My dad rarely says yes to a show. My mom lets me go sometimes, because she knows I work hard, she knows it is important to me, and she trusts me.
Do you know I haven't been to the Black Cat since last June? And I have only been to 9:30 once since last June, and that was only for a two hour soundcheck in the afternoon. They weren't letting me go to stuff because I had the SAT's to deal with, and then I was completely banned from shows because of the shooting. It's just now that I might be allowed to start going to stuff again.
But I don't know where you got this impression of me that I was running around freely all over U Street at four in the morning. My parents are extremely authoritarian. And when I go to a show, I get dropped off at the door and picked up at the door. [/b]
[/b]
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What Bede said.
You're responsible, but in the point of fairness you're being affected by decisions regarding everyone of your age....many of whom may not be as responsible, or have parents who are as responsible.
And my point is that even if they do take this away from you, you've got a lot of other opportunities here in the DC area that you can take advantage of. A year or two more without shows wouldn't be the end of the world.
By the way, don't they have all ages, non-alcoholic shows anywhere? I went to those all the time in college, even when I was over 21.
And from a totally selfish concert consumer standpoint, I sometimes like having a place to hang out with people who are all adults (though they may not always act like it), free of children. That's one of the reasons I used to like Iota so much, though the smoke I can do without. That's not because I dislike kids, it's just sometimes nice to be somewhere where their not around. You probably feel the same way about adults.
Originally posted by you be betty:
...and that's the point I was trying to make all along.
I am a responsible kid. I know my limits. My parents are REALLY strict. But I can still go out to a show and be perfectly safe and have a good time. Why take that away from me?
[.
[/qb][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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I've been to the 9:30 Club more than 200 times (if you include the F Street location) and never been involved in an incident or seen any violence. I've seen underage drinkers thrown out, though. Okay, some pretty intense moshing, but staff has monitored to make sure it stayed contained.
Ditto to Black Cat. I think I've probably been to 100 shows there...
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300 shows and haven't seen one incidence of violence? You must be busy watching the bands or something. I bet thatguy could verify that there are at least occasional incidents of a physical nature requiring removal from the club.
Originally posted by Bags:
I've been to the 9:30 Club more than 200 times (if you include the F Street location) and never been involved in an incident or seen any violence. I've seen underage drinkers thrown out, though. Okay, some pretty intense moshing, but staff has monitored to make sure it stayed contained.
Ditto to Black Cat. I think I've probably been to 100 shows there...
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
however, graham can't simply introduce a bill limiting the ability of kids to go to go-go clubs (even though I think those are supposed to be 18+, perhaps enforcing a law already on the books would be a better option, no?) and their like because that would be racist since it would single out a particular type of establishment that caters to a particular race, even though that's where the violence occurs. instead, he has to make the bill constitutional, and apply it evenly across everyone. we wouldn't want our government to do racial profiling, now would we?
This really is the pickle, isn't it? You can't single out certain types of clubs, though I think it's likely that there are problems seen at certain types of venues and clubs that you might not see at 9:30, for instance.
Though, I don't want to take away from the stellar job 9:30 does with their staff and enforcing house rules.
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But it would be the end of the world because a lot of my life revolves around it. A lot of other people would be devastated. Even young adults who aren't as regular of concertgoers as I am still deserve to go to shows.
And I am sorry you feel that way, but if you want to hang out somewhere without kids, then don't hang out at 9:30 or Black Cat. The 9:30 club is "All ages, all the time." The Black Cat is all ages. They have been this way for years. There are plenty of other places you can go without teenagers to see live music, but there are few places we can go to see live music. Don't take that away from us.
You know, we are fully capable of carrying on conversations with you "adults" and being friends with you and coexisting. I always have. Area artists tell me all the time that all-ages shows are much more fun than those which are restricted. Age is not an issue for many people. But if it is, you can't expect to impose your discomfort on everyone else...
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
What Bede said.
You're responsible, but in the point of fairness you're being affected by decisions regarding everyone of your age....many of whom may not be as responsible, or have parents who are as responsible.
And my point is that even if they do take this away from you, you've got a lot of other opportunities here in the DC area that you can take advantage of. A year or two more without shows wouldn't be the end of the world.
By the way, don't they have all ages, non-alcoholic shows anywhere? I went to those all the time in college, even when I was over 21.
And from a totally selfish concert consumer standpoint, I sometimes like having a place to hang out with people who are all adults (though they may not always act like it), free of children. That's one of the reasons I used to like Iota so much, though the smoke I can do without. That's not because I dislike kids, it's just sometimes nice to be somewhere where their not around. You probably feel the same way about adults.
Originally posted by you be betty:
...and that's the point I was trying to make all along.
I am a responsible kid. I know my limits. My parents are REALLY strict. But I can still go out to a show and be perfectly safe and have a good time. Why take that away from me?
[.
[/b]
[/QB][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
I bet thatguy could verify that there are at least occasional incidents of a physical nature requiring removal from the club.
I'm sure there is. And I admit I'm particularly 'clueless' to problems around me. But, I think one reason I've never seeen anything is that the club handles situations so quickly and almost invisibly, that even an incident rarely spills beyond the person instigating.
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Originally posted by Bags:
I've been to the 9:30 Club more than 200 times (if you include the F Street location) and never been involved in an incident or seen any violence. I've seen underage drinkers thrown out, though. Okay, some pretty intense moshing, but staff has monitored to make sure it stayed contained.
Ditto to Black Cat. I think I've probably been to 100 shows there...
Agreed. The only times I have ever been remotely harassed (and it wasn't even harassment, it was more "Damn girl, you fine!" and whistles, which happens in Bethesda, too) have been incidents taking place down the street or around the corner from the club. I have never experienced any trouble while in line for a show or inside the club.
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Just an aside, but when I was much younger people used to call me "Nightclub Bill".
"There goes old Nightclub Bill. I wonder where he's heading? God, I admire that dude..."
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Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
Just an aside, but when I was much younger people used to call me "Nightclub Bill".
"There goes old Nightclub Bill. I wonder where he's heading. God, I admire that dude..."
we did the "nightclub bill" joke a page and a half ago man! dont wear it out!
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betty,
this is not about you and your friends. i agree, the council is being very short-sighted and taking away opportunities from minors. 930 club, black cat and other responsible establishments do what it takes to ensure the safety of those in the club. HOWEVER, there are many other establishments that are not so thorough in their pursuit of safety. because of those establishments, the d.c. council figured they must do something.
now, like i said before, you can argue that enforcing laws already on the books would be a much better way to go, but i don't know if that will make it any safer. i don't think i've read anywhere that says the impetus behind this move is geared at violence towards or amongst indie kids at black cat or 930 club, but violence does tend to occur at certain establishments. i agree with doom, instead of cutting everyone off, it would seem to make more sense for d.c. to work within the affected areas to make them safer.
the world is not bethesda or the suburbs. rightly or wrongly, there is trouble out there, even if you have not faced it. i know you know all that, and am glad that you are thinking about this issue. i am by no means telling you to give up and stop speaking out on this issue, but at the same time you have to be pragmatic about it.
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Originally posted by you be betty:
it was more "Damn girl, you fine!" and whistles, which happens in Bethesda, too) have been incidents taking place down the street or around the corner from the club. I have never experienced any trouble while in line for a show or inside the club.
are you sure those weren't 9:30 boardies? ;)
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
300 shows and haven't seen one incidence of violence? You must be busy watching the bands or something. I bet thatguy could verify that there are at least occasional incidents of a physical nature requiring removal from the club.
acts of physical violence are rare at the club (if you don't count pit/moshing activity that is allowed within certain situations and with certain restrictions). depending on your musical tastes, it would be easy to go through 300 shows over several years without seeing an act of violence at the club.
based on my observations over the last decade or so, with no statistical claims whatsoever:
A. most physically violent incidents at the club can be attributed to one root cause: alcohol and/or drug use.
2. most physically violent incidents at the club involve adults.
c. most physically violent incidents involve two parties equally participating. there are very few "innocent victims" when you get down to the details.
IV. most physically violent incidents can be avoided by paying careful attention and through early intervention by the staph.
my take on the underage thing:
i went to shows when i was underage. a lot of shows. i grew up during the hair metal/arena rock era, and i went to shows at the cap centre and similar places. as i got older and my tastes changed, i started going to punk and heavier shows at the old club and similar places. i saw way more violence and trouble at those arena shows than i did at the clubs.
i went to shows on school nights occasionally, but only because my grades and performance were so good that my parents couldn't question the impact on my schooling. i went to shows with appropriate supervison, whether it was a parent, my older sister and her boyfriend, or some other responsible adult. in the proper circumstances underage concertgoing can be a harmless diversion, just like any of the hundreds of other things i did to keep myself entertained as a kid. hell, it might even have a positve impact on some people.
i wouldn't be doing what i'm doing now if i didn't have the oppportunity to experience the old club as a minor. the ability to see shows when i was young definitely had a positive effect on my life. i think it's a horrible idea to keep underage kids out of clubs across the board, even though my job would probably be a lot easier if they did.
if the clubs have their act together, provide adequate security, and use some simple common sense, there is no reason that underagers can't coexist with adults in an entertainment setting. children are allowed in many entertainment venues that serve alcohol to adults, but you don't hear anyone trying to keep them out of the theater or sporting events. i'd wager that there are more violent incidents at sporting events than at concerts.
there is no reason for a minor to be in a bar, but there is no reason for a minor not to be in a concert venue that happens to serve alcohol if that venue is responsible for the safety of all of its patrons, regardless of their age.
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
you are right. . .however, graham can't simply introduce a bill limiting the ability of kids to go to go-go clubs (even though I think those are supposed to be 18+, perhaps enforcing a law already on the books would be a better option, no?) and their like because that would be racist since it would single out a particular type of establishment that caters to a particular race, even though that's where the violence occurs. instead, he has to make the bill constitutional, and apply it evenly across everyone. we wouldn't want our government to do racial profiling, now would we?
I book quite a bit of shows at Club Lime in SW which on the very same nights will also have a Go-Go going on the lower level with Backyard Band, Rare Essence, etc. playing every week. They've got uniformed officers just hanging outside and sometimes will come in to see what's up (ie listen to the bands on either level.) Club security is doing their job inside checking IDs and patrolling the crowd. There's not been one problem between the two parties with inappropriate comments or altercations and I really don't think there ever will be a problem because the club has done everything right and what they're suppose to do.
The problem will never be underage kids or whatever type of crowd a venue caters to. The problem is with a alcohol license holder (club owner) trying to make a quick buck and being irresponsible. Locking up a club owner will send a big wake up call to others as well as the doorman checking IDs. Lock them up too! Don't like it? Obviously you're not doing your job right with checking IDs properly.
If the correct measures are in place, you will not have any problems that the ABC or City Council could shut you down over. The problem is this council specifically Graham is trying to cover their asses for letting a murder, underage or not, happen in an unsafe environment when they should have closed the club months prior to the underage death. There's no hiding the facts.
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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Originally posted by MindCage:
If the correct measures are in place, you will not have any problems that the ABC or City Council could shut you down over. The problem is this council specifically Graham is trying to cover their asses for letting a murder, underage or not, happen in an unsafe environment when they should have closed the club months prior to the underage death. There's no hiding the facts.
yes, it is the responsibility of the club owners to hire security and install security and safety measures in their club. the fact is that violence tends to congregate around specific clubs that just so happen to also cater to a specific crowd. fundamentally, if a club owner is failing to abide by the law, it should be shut down- no one will dispute that. is the d.c. council over-reacting, yes, but it still doesn't change the overarching problem that this type of violence has a history of occurring in select places. nevertheless, the ultimate responsibility remains with the owner of the club to protect and provide safety for everyone at the club, and the city can shut down those that are in violation.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
My concern as a parent would be for the safety of my child, as well as for my child getting enough sleep. The safety concern would be more the issue of being on the streets late at night than it would be in the concert venue itself.
rhett, as you live in the suburbs, do you plan on driving regularly with your child in the car, or allowing your child to drive when he/she turns 16 or 17? either of these are exponentially more dangerous than "being on the streets late at night"
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Originally posted by They call me Doctor Doom.:
Go-go is as much an outlet for the city's youth as any other form of music, it's a hallowed DC tradition, and there is nothing inherently violent about it.
i'm woefully under-informed on this subject, but aren't the neighborhood shoutouts "inherent" with go-go shows often the sparking point when violence does occur?
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What the crap? I said that at least three times in this thread; maybe you should read...
This could be somewhat resolved if security at all nightclubs who wanted to stay in business was beefed up. If Jim Graham really cared about our safety he might go to places like 9:30 and watch how thoroughly they check patrons upon entrance. Or take note of other clubs like the one mentioned in the article that is metal detecting people. Maybe metal detectors aren't such a bad idea.
After all, the issue here is safety, right?
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
betty,
this is not about you and your friends. i agree, the council is being very short-sighted and taking away opportunities from minors. 930 club, black cat and other responsible establishments do what it takes to ensure the safety of those in the club. HOWEVER, there are many other establishments that are not so thorough in their pursuit of safety. because of those establishments, the d.c. council figured they must do something.
now, like i said before, you can argue that enforcing laws already on the books would be a much better way to go, but i don't know if that will make it any safer. i don't think i've read anywhere that says the impetus behind this move is geared at violence towards or amongst indie kids at black cat or 930 club, but violence does tend to occur at certain establishments. i agree with doom, instead of cutting everyone off, it would seem to make more sense for d.c. to work within the affected areas to make them safer.
the world is not bethesda or the suburbs. rightly or wrongly, there is trouble out there, even if you have not faced it. i know you know all that, and am glad that you are thinking about this issue. i am by no means telling you to give up and stop speaking out on this issue, but at the same time you have to be pragmatic about it.
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Originally posted by you be betty:
[QB] What the crap? I said that at least three times in this thread; maybe you should read...
This could be somewhat resolved if security at all nightclubs who wanted to stay in business was beefed up. If Jim Graham really cared about our safety he might go to places like 9:30 and watch how thoroughly they check patrons upon entrance. Or take note of other clubs like the one mentioned in the article that is metal detecting people. Maybe metal detectors aren't such a bad idea.
After all, the issue here is safety, right?
It's not so much about beefing security up as it is to actually have competent, trained security people working. Not shady guys looking to make a quick $5-10 spot for letting the young girl that "forgot her ID" into a club or ones that do half-assed patdowns. Putting more liability back on the license holder would make sure they're going to be covering their ass even more.
I do believe even the 930 Club uses the metal detecting wands for some shows. I know there's only been one time at the club I've had that happened...I believe it was for Pharcyde, 311, and Cypress Hill. I think I could be wrong because I can't see this show having a lot of violence with 1000+ stoned people. Staph should know weed isn't metal ;)
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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Good question, and I have 16 years to figure out the answer.
I think it would in part depend on what streets they were on, both on foot and in automobile. And it would depend on what my child was like. If it's a boy and he's anywhere near as big as his 6'6" father-in-law, I'd feel a little better. As far as my driving record goes, I've been driving for 24 years, with zero accidents. I was mugged on the suburban main street of Takoma Park. We've also been harassed a number of times after leaving shows at the 9:30. I would feel safer driving my child to a show than letting them wander the hood after the show.
I'd also probably feel safer with a girl teen behind the wheel over a boy, and a boy teen on the "streets" than a girl teen. Call me sexist.
When I was a teen, New York State had a law that drivers under 18 had to be off the road by 9PM. Which I think was great, studies showed it saved many lives. Unfortunately, they changed it to 11PM on weekdays and 12:01 am on weekends. I know VA has age restrictions for night driving, but I don't know what they are.
Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
My concern as a parent would be for the safety of my child, as well as for my child getting enough sleep. The safety concern would be more the issue of being on the streets late at night than it would be in the concert venue itself.
rhett, as you live in the suburbs, do you plan on driving regularly with your child in the car, or allowing your child to drive when he/she turns 16 or 17? either of these are exponentially more dangerous than "being on the streets late at night" [/b]
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I would suggest charging $5 more on ticket prices for kids under 21 to cover that license. Hell, back in the dayz, San Francisco dance clubs charged me more because I'm a guy and the women are getting in free or for $2 while I paid $5.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
We've also been harassed a number of times after leaving shows at the 9:30.
Harassed by whom?
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It wasn't me, I swear! :D
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
We've also been harassed a number of times after leaving shows at the 9:30.
Harassed by whom? [/b]
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
When I was a teen, New York State had a law that drivers under 18 had to be off the road by 9PM. Which I think was great
you thought it was great when you were a teen?
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wow, this is sounding like a Senate hearing!
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Originally posted by you be betty:
Maybe metal detectors aren't such a bad idea.
nononononononononononononononono.
this isnt russia!
maybe a strip search...background check? retina scan?
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Children should be home by 10..end of story.
Why can't they just go down the field and drink cider like we all had to. Keep the little shits out of the nightclubs. Give us a break from the little bollocks will you?
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
I think it would in part depend on what streets they were on, both on foot and in automobile. And it would depend on what my child was like. If it's a boy and he's anywhere near as big as his 6'6" father-in-law, I'd feel a little better. As far as my driving record goes, I've been driving for 24 years, with zero accidents. I was mugged on the suburban main street of Takoma Park. We've also been harassed a number of times after leaving shows at the 9:30. I would feel safer driving my child to a show than letting them wander the hood after the show.
most people would also "feel safer" driving around springfield, virginia than walking down U street at 12am on a friday; it's one of the main reasons people move out to the suburbs, in order to live a "safer" life than in the city ... basic risk analysis and comparison, however, shows that driving around suburbia on a regular basis is way more dangerous than walking in an urban environment (notwithstanding psycho metrobus drivers)
fortunately you've dodged a bullet by miraculously not being involved in any accidents and unfortunately bucked the trend by being mugged in takoma park and "harrassed" multiple times surrounding the 930 club in an approximately 25-time sample
i'm just sick of people (not you in particular, just people in general) being deathly afraid of things that the media feeds them like bird flu, child abductions, random acts of street violence, etc, while they drive around every day with a cellphone smacked against their cheek and a Big Mac on their lap
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Men hitting on my wife. Typical negro mumbo jumbo like, "You bettuh watch out, aw I'm gonna git yuh wife." That's happened a couple of times. Some might take it as complimentary, but we'd prefer they shut the fuck up and leave us alone.
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
We've also been harassed a number of times after leaving shows at the 9:30.
Harassed by whom? [/b]
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No, I didn't. But I don't think my parents would have budged much on that number. It's not like there was much to do beyond going to a high school basketball game or movie anyway, so it wasn't a big deal.
Originally posted by le sonick:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
When I was a teen, New York State had a law that drivers under 18 had to be off the road by 9PM. Which I think was great
you thought it was great when you were a teen? [/b]
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So, when you go to the 9:30 you are sexually and otherwise assaulted and subject to verbal harassment from "negroes." When you go to the Birchmere, your wife is set upon by rude staff and abusive management. On the streets of Takoma Park you are mugged. At the suburban mattress store you get into an altercation with the staff. On the streets of Gay Paris, you are physically assaulted by mimes. I know there are a slew of other incidents I am forgetting.
As an alleged mathmetician, you must realize that the frequency with which you and your wife are the victims of random acts of abuse and violence are a massive statistical anomaly.
Or perhaps you are just full of shit.
Either way, it is probably best for your physical safety and your emotional well-being if you disengage from that confrontational and dangerous outside world. Just stay home.
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Men hitting on my wife. Typical negro mumbo jumbo like, "You bettuh watch out, aw I'm gonna git yuh wife." That's happened a couple of times. Some might take it as complimentary, but we'd prefer they shut the fuck up and leave us alone.
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Just stay home.
post of the month!
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Spoken like somebody who's lived in the cushy suburbs his whole life, and who doesn't have a hot wife.
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
So, when you go to the 9:30 you are sexually and otherwise assaulted and subject to verbal harassment from "negroes." When you go to the Birchmere, your wife is set upon by rude staff and abusive management. On the streets of Takoma Park you are mugged. At the suburban mattress store you get into an altercation with the staff. On the streets of Gay Paris, you are physically assaulted by mimes. I know there are a slew of other incidents I am forgetting.
As an alleged mathmetician, you must realize that the frequency with which you and your wife are the victims of random acts of abuse and violence are a massive statistical anomaly.
Or perhaps you are just full of shit.
Either way, it is probably best for your physical safety and your emotional well-being if you disengage from that confrontational and dangerous outside world. Just stay home.
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Men hitting on my wife. Typical negro mumbo jumbo like, "You bettuh watch out, aw I'm gonna git yuh wife." That's happened a couple of times. Some might take it as complimentary, but we'd prefer they shut the fuck up and leave us alone.
[/b]
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This is one of the funniest threads in memory...
Rhett, you always eventually bring up your allegedly "hot wife" in threads like this, do you draw validation from being married to hotness?
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Not half as funny as the comments on the Washington Post board about this subject (which somebody already pointed out) Do read if you haven't already.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2007040101150 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/comments/display?contentID=AR2007040101150)
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Many of those commenters sound like poorly-educated backwoods hicks from outside the beltway...
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Spoken like somebody who's lived in the cushy suburbs his whole life, and who doesn't have a hot wife.
The second statement is true by default, as we are not married. The first statement is just plain wrong.
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
When you go to the Birchmere, your wife is set upon by rude staff and abusive management.
Was it something to do with the cole slaw?
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Let me ask you, have you not ever had a disagreement with someone in the service industry? I'll bet you have. To your credit, you just didn't bitch about it on this message board.
And I'll bet if you have dated or are dating someone who is considered physically attractive, she's received inappropriate comments from time to time by strangers. The more attractive the woman, the more bullshit she has to typically put up with. I reckon I dated a few other women in the same ballpark as my wife, and they had similiar stories. I also dated a number of women that the masses probably wouldn't be bowled over by, and they seemed to have much less trouble with harassment.
If you've never been mugged or physically assaulted, consider yourself lucky. A number of my college friends who were from NYC were always trading stories of being mugged and/or robbed. It happens. I was mugged while walking home three miles in the dark. Perhaps you are more of a driver than a walker? Perhaps the fact that you're 6'3" or so makes you less appealing of a target, than me at 5'9" and blind without my glasses.
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Spoken like somebody who's lived in the cushy suburbs his whole life, and who doesn't have a hot wife.
The second statement is true by default, as we are not married. The first statement is just plain wrong. [/b]
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Originally posted by They call me Doctor Doom.:
Many of those commenters sound like poorly-educated backwoods hicks from outside the beltway...
some of them are pretty funny comments, but i really liked the only about having the 'teen' night at the clubs. it reminds me, growing up in CA (bay area), my cousin and I used to go to The Edge in Palo Alto for their monthly teen nights. We did meet the guys from Skankin Pickle, and did learn how to skank there. Im pretty sure some good came out of it :) (probably my love for ska music)!
It wasnt strictly limited to 16 and under, i think it was 18 or something. Not such a bad idea. Granted - this was Palo Alto. I doubt SF had anything like this, but I could have just forgotten.
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Whatever happened to all ages hardcore shows? When I was in college, the kids went to those, and the adults 21+ went to the local alt-rock club for shows. And it wasn't a big deal. When did rock clubs decide to tap so heavily into the kiddie market, anyway?
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And I have to dispute Hoya's statistics. More people may DIE in traffic accidents, but more people are victims of crimes of violence.
In 2005, U.S. residents age 12 or older experienced approximately 23 million crimes, according to findings from the National Crime Victimization Survey.
-- 77% (18.0 million) were property crimes
-- 22% (5.2 million) were crimes of violence
-- 1% (227,000) were personal thefts.
The 1998 NHTSA report "Traffic Safety Facts 1998 Annual Report" reports 41,471 fatalities and 3,192,000 injuries, 414,960 of them serious.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
And I have to dispute Hoya's statistics. More people may DIE in traffic accidents, but more people are victims of crimes of violence.
In 2005, U.S. residents age 12 or older experienced approximately 23 million crimes, according to findings from the National Crime Victimization Survey.
-- 77% (18.0 million) were property crimes
-- 22% (5.2 million) were crimes of violence
-- 1% (227,000) were personal thefts.
The 1998 NHTSA report "Traffic Safety Facts 1998 Annual Report" reports 41,471 fatalities and 3,192,000 injuries, 414,960 of them serious.
i was referring to the abject fear in the minds of many of "random" acts of street violence, not getting beat up by your husband or some neighborhood acquaintance over a prior beef ... if you look inside those statistics you'll see that you are much more likely to be hurt in a car accident than in a "random" violent crime
and just as most violent crimes are between people who know each other, i'd hazard to guess that the overwhelming majority of car accidents are "random"
additionally, focusing solely on death is a common misstep made by the federal government when quantifying risk ... real people care deeply about injuries and maiming (or the humiliation of being mugged) and focusing just on fatality statistics is very misleading
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all these statistics dont show shit anyway.
the initial statement was thats its just as dangerous to be driving in the burbs as it is to be walking down the street in a city.
but rhett's stats dont compare crimes in the city to crimes in the burbs.
nor does it take into effect that people are driving a lot less than they are not driving.
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but if you're driving, then you are safe from the negroes
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there were 2,788,000 traffic injuries in 2004, or 1,172 traffic injuries for every 100,000 registered vehicles on the road ...
there were 1,287,981 violent crimes in 2005, and while a cursory glance at the FBI Uniform Crime Reports reveals that the relationship of violent crime victims and offenders isn't reported, they do report the relationship of homicide victims to their attackers .... of 14,860 homicides in 2005, 2,070 (or about 14%) were committed by a "stranger" ... extrapolated to all violent crimes, there were about 180,000 "random" violent crimes ... this is an admittedly faulty approach, and i'm sure you could find a better statistic somewhere, but it's probably good enough to get a very rough estimate
the numbers aren't even close
and now i'm angry at myself for spending 5 minutes looking this shit up, thanks
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Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
Nightclub Bill, that old hornswaggler once said that Current FBI Uniform Crime Reports are written by The Ministry Of Truth.
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i apologize, i found better violent crime stats:
5,173,710 violent crime victims
2,369,150 victimized by strangers
and still 2,788,000 traffic injuries
the numbers are obviously much closer, and could be broken-down into the DC area, but i'm already so fucking angry that i wasted time actually looking into this that instead i'm going to sign off the board for the day ...
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Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
but if you're driving, then you are safe from the negroes
But what about the octaroons?
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half safe
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This is ridiculous. Do you really consider men on the street hitting on your wife a serious issue?
I know you're not a chick, but get used to it. It happens to women all the time. EVERYWHERE. Suburbs and cities. And it's not something serious or criminal - it just happens. So you put your head down and keep walking. Or you tell them you're a hermaphrodite. Either way, it is always harmless. Women always deal with this and unless we are touched or followed, think nothing of it. So if this is the worst you all have been harassed around the 9:30 club...
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but you see betty, they were negroes
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Originally posted by xneverwherex:
some of them are pretty funny comments, but i really liked the only about having the 'teen' night at the clubs. it reminds me, growing up in CA (bay area), my cousin and I used to go to The Edge in Palo Alto for their monthly teen nights. We did meet the guys from Skankin Pickle, and did learn how to skank there. Im pretty sure some good came out of it :) (probably my love for ska music)!
same here; loved the edge. i can't even remember all the shows i saw there when i was in high school. as for skankin pickle, some friends of mine convinced the powers-that-be at my high school to let them play during our lunch one time during senior year. "i'm hulk hogan, i am losing all my hair"
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I've never met Rhett and Celeste, I have no idea what they're really like, but this is what I picture...
A big guy with cowboy boots and a mullet walking down the streets with Celeste in tow, tight jeans, blonde feathered hair, fake boobs, red heels...
As he passes the African-American community on his way to the club someone's eyeballs land upon his wife's substantial booty...
Rhett decides he must defend his wife's honour, brushes back his mullet hair, and says something confrontational...
and the situation escalates from there...
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by xneverwherex:
some of them are pretty funny comments, but i really liked the only about having the 'teen' night at the clubs. it reminds me, growing up in CA (bay area), my cousin and I used to go to The Edge in Palo Alto for their monthly teen nights. We did meet the guys from Skankin Pickle, and did learn how to skank there. Im pretty sure some good came out of it :) (probably my love for ska music)!
same here; loved the edge. i can't even remember all the shows i saw there when i was in high school. as for skankin pickle, some friends of mine convinced the powers-that-be at my high school to let them play during our lunch one time during senior year. "i'm hulk hogan, i am losing all my hair" [/b]
too funny. i wonder if we were there around the same time. Id imagine so, and I saw shows there as well. What school did you go to? I knew lots of people at palo alto, and my cousin was in redwood city. forgot where she went. sequoia i think.
and i swear, everyone in that area, has some connection to skankin pickle. im kinda thinking they might be at my cousins wedding, as she seems to be in touch with the entire world. oh man, itd be funny if you knew her. shes getting married in SF this year. did you go to any recent engagement parties at an art gallery? i believe you live in SF from what i recall :)
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Haha. While you may be on target with what we look like, you're not on target as to my behavior. Though I may be overly confrontational on the board, I'm a complete meek pansy when it comes to dealing with African-American men. After getting kicked in the head while getting mugged by two guys when I wasn't at all being confrontational, I know it's best to just walk as fast as possible and don't even aknowlege their comments.
Originally posted by They call me Doctor Doom.:
I've never met Rhett and Celeste, I have no idea what they're really like, but this is what I picture...
A big guy with cowboy boots and a mullet walking down the streets with Celeste in tow, tight jeans, blonde feathered hair, fake boobs, red heels...
As he passes the African-American community on his way to the club someone's eyeballs land upon his wife's substantial booty...
Rhett decides he must defend his wife's honour, brushes back his mullet hair, and says something confrontational...
and the situation escalates from there...
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Haha. While you may be on target with what we look like, you're not on target as to my behavior.
Funny, I would have said the exact opposite.
Honestly though, I've never witnessed you being confrontational in person but I can't help but assume that it happens based on your board personality and your many experiences.
Doomie, your visual image is way off.
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Trust me, I'm not at all confrontational in person. My wife tends to be more so than me, but that's in part because she's got a size advantage over most women, and she thinks of herself as a tough Southside Chicago girl.
And I didn't mean to imply that only black guys harass her or anyone else. Men of all races behave like douchebags. Nor did I mean to imply that all black men behave in such a way. Most are perfect gentlemen.
Originally posted by Jaguar:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Haha. While you may be on target with what we look like, you're not on target as to my behavior.
Funny, I would have said the exact opposite.
Honestly though, I've never witnessed you being confrontational in person but I can't help but assume that it happens based on your board personality and your many experiences.
Doomie, your visual image is way off. [/b]
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I hate it when people threadjack! This thread was suppose to be about that New nightclub bill that many of us felt is nothing but feel good legislature. Can we stay focus on the thread at hand? If you think this bill won't do jack about safety, you can write, fax, phone and/or email your elected officials to express your concerns. Yes, there bad nightclubs out there! Let's not punish the responsible club for the actions of a chosen few!
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Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
Current FBI Uniform Crime Reports are written by The Ministry Of Truth.
How quickly a month goes by...
The Truth of Interracial Rape in the United States (http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=28129)
Like Ahab's search for the Great White Whale, liberals' search for the Great White Defendant is relentless and never-ending. When, in 1988, Tawana Brawley's and Al Sharpton's then year-old spectacular charge that several white men including prosecutor Steven Pagones (whose name Brawley had picked out of a newspaper article) had abducted and raped the 15 year old was shown to be completely false, the Nation said it didn't matter, since the charges expressed the essential nature of white men's treatment of black women in this country. When the Duke University lacrosse players were accused of raping a black stripper last year, liberals everywhere treated the accusation as fact, because, just as with the Nation and Tawana Brawley, the rape charge seemed to the minds of liberals to reflect the true nature of oppressive racial and sexual relations in America.
To see the real truth of the matter, let us take a look at the Department of Justice document (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvusst.htm) Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2005. (Go to the linked document, and under "Victims and Offenders" download the pdf file for 2005.)
In Table 42, entitled "Personal crimes of violence, 2005, percent distribution of single-offender victimizations, based on race of victims, by type of crime and perceived race of offender," we learn that there were 111,590 white victims and 36,620 black victims of rape or sexual assault in 2005. (The number of rapes is not distinguished from those of sexual assaults; it is maddening that sexual assault, an ill-defined category that covers various types of criminal acts ranging from penetration to inappropriate touching, is conflated with the more specific crime of rape.) In the 111,590 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was white, 44.5 percent of the offenders were white, and 33.6 percent of the offenders were black. In the 36,620 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was black, 100 percent of the offenders were black, and 0.0 percent of the offenders were white. The table explains that 0.0 percent means that there were under 10 incidents nationally.
The table does not gives statistics for Hispanic victims and offenders. But the bottom line on interracial white/black and black/white rape is clear:
In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man.
What this means is that every day in the United States, over one hundred white women are raped or sexually assaulted by a black man.
The Department of Justice statistics refer, of course, to verified reports. According to the Wikipedia article on rape, as many as half of all rape charges nationally are determined by police and prosecutors to be false:
Linda Fairstein, former head of the New York County District Attorney's Sex Crimes Unit, noted, "There are about 4,000 reports of rape each year in Manhattan. Of these, about half simply did not happen.... It's my job to bring justice to the man who has been falsely accused by a woman who has a grudge against him, just as it's my job to prosecute the real thing."
No wonder there was such absolute belief in the guilt of the Duke students among the leading sectors of liberal America. A drug-addled, half-deranged, promiscuous black stripper accused three young white men of raping her. There are virtually zero rapes of black women by white men in the United States, and half of all rape charges against specific individuals turn out to be false. But in the gnostic, inverted world of liberal demonology, the white students had to be guilty.
Meanwhile, in the real America, week after week, the newspapers report the rapes of white women by black menâ??though, of course, without ever once using the words, "a white woman was raped by black man." Just last week in the New York Post there was a story about a serial black rapist who invaded women's apartments on Manhattan's Upper West Side; you knew the rapist was black from a police drawing accompanying the story, and you knew the victims were most likely white from the neighborhoods where the attacks occurred. But even when news media's reports of black on white rape make the race of the perpetrator evident (which the media only does in a minority of instances), no explicit reference is ever made to the racial aspect of the case. Each story of black on white rape is reported in isolation, not presented as part of a larger pattern. There is never the slightest mention of the fact that white women in this country are being targeted by black rapists (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/04/20/2007-04-20_collared_in_sicko_rape.html). In the inverted world of liberalism, the phenomenon does not exist.
Lawrence Auster is the author of Erasing America: The Politics of the Borderless Nation. He offers a traditionalist conservative perspective at View from the Right.
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Hey Hoja: The DOJ must be staffed with white supremacists, eh?
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No dissent here..?
The truth will out...
Score 1-0 in favor of the dupester!
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there was dissent it just wasn't public...
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and my comment is oh look an opinion piece written by a conservative bashing liberals that includes a link to send to you eBRIGRDE...
have you seen "The Lives of Others"? even under socialism power can corrupt...
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Originally posted by kosmo:
have you seen "The Lives of Others"? even under socialism power can corrupt...
dont be knocking socialism, now!
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Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
Hey Hoja: The DOJ must be staffed with white supremacists, eh?
the DOJ is staffed by Christian Soldiers from bottom-feeder places like THE Christian Broadcasting Network School of Law*
now Regent University
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Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
Lawrence Auster
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=181 (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=181)
That summer, The Social Contract Press released a special issue of its journal, The Social Contract (published by Tanton), that was entitled "Europhobia: The Hostility Toward European-Descended Americans."
The lead article was written by John Vinson, head of the Tanton-supported American Immigration Control Foundation, and argued that "multiculturalism" was replacing "successful Euro-American culture" with "dysfunctional Third World cultures."
Tanton himself elaborated on Vinson's remarks, saying an "unwarranted hatred and fear" of white Americans was developing. The main culprits, in Tanton's view, were immigrants and their ideological allies, the "multiculturalists."
The issue was one of the first public manifestations of a collaboration between Tanton's network and open racists. In addition to Tanton and Vinson, the line-up of authors included:
* Sam Francis, who would later become editor of the Citizens Informer, the racist publication of the Council of Conservative Citizens;
* Lawrence Auster, who also spoke at conferences of American Renaissance, a pseudo-scientific magazine devoted to racial breeding and the idea that blacks are less intelligent; and
* Joseph Fallon, who writes for American Renaissance.
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Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
Hey Hoja: The DOJ must be staffed with white supremacists, eh?
the DOJ is staffed by Christian Soldiers from bottom-feeder places like THE Christian Broadcasting Network School of Law*
now Regent University [/b]
The entire DOJ is staffed by Christian soldiers!?! You heard it here first people. A hoja exclusive!
Don't believe anything DOJ does, says, or writes. It's the Hoja way of arriving at logical conclusions. Hoja eats his dogfood wearing a blindfold. He calls it filet mignon. He once looked UP at the sun and declared, "Look, there's a blazing ball of fire in the sky!"
And yes the statistics of white on black rape are not to be trusted. It's a well known fact European-American males are raping black women all the live long day. You cannot swing a cat without hitting a European-American male-on-black-female rapist on the nitely TV news. It's epidemic.
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Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
Hey Hoja: The DOJ must be staffed with white supremacists, eh?
the DOJ is staffed by Christian Soldiers from bottom-feeder places like THE Christian Broadcasting Network School of Law*
now Regent University [/b]
The entire DOJ is staffed by Christian soldiers!?! You heard it here first people. A hoja exclusive!
Don't believe anything DOJ does, says, or writes. It's the Hoja way of arriving at logical conclusions. Hoja eats his dogfood wearing a blindfold. He calls it filet mignon. He once looked UP at the sun and declared, "Look, there's a blazing ball of fire in the sky!"
And yes the statistics of white on black rape are not to be trusted. It's a well known fact European-American males are raping black women all the live long day. You cannot swing a cat without hitting a European-American male-on-black-female rapist on the nitely TV news. It's epidemic. [/b]
No, Derek! You got your information from a far right group who twist information for their own agenda. It obvious that those on the right are just as biased as those on the left. Heck, the info you posted can be debunked by those pajama journalist the same way those phony Bush memos and Jeff Gannon was exposed! As Former congressman Daniel Moryiham once said "You have the right to own opinion, but not the right to your own facts."
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The Department of Justice is a far right group???
"In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf) black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man."
I'm shocked. THAT'S ONE BUSY BLACK MAN!
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Hoja changing the subject again with another ad hominem attack on me. Attacking the messenger, not the message. What does your beleaguered poast have to do with the Department of Justice report (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf), or the price of tea in China.
Hoja, don't you even know how to slander someone properly? I thought that's what they taught Marxist hacks like you at the prestigious Shabbaztown university. Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
Blah Blah Blah...more of the same Hoja Marxist twaddle
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his post is pointing out the "credibility" of the author of the story you want to tout as being further proof of your on going inconvenient truth campaign... which by the way many of us are sick of
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The authors of the Department of Justice report (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf)(scroll to page 43 for the rape stats) is Lawrence Auster?
Actually no. The authors are listed on the first couple of pages of the report. Which obviosly neither you nor Hoja have read. Loan Nguyen...he sounds like your typical white Christian soldier.
Do you deny the data in the report?
Have more than 10 African American women been sexually assaulted or raped by European American men in 2005? If so, then please provide data to support your assertion.
And please stop changing the subject.
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i'll stop changing the subject when you stop posting your unwelcome drivel....
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Originally posted by kosmo:
i'll stop changing the subject when you stop posting your unwelcome drivel....
It's not drivel. I was merely pointing out an example of 'White Privilege' in America today.
If you are a white woman, you have the privilege of being raped 37,00 times by black men.
If you are a black woman, you have the disadvantage of not being raped at all by European American men.
Some white privilege this is.
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hopefully speaking on behalf of the board we would like to thank you for the monthly reminder and i'm sure women of all races will remain vigilant to protect themselves. now can you let it drop?
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Thank you. I merely poasted this as Hoja had once accused me of supplying what he claimed were stats authoured by white supremicists, but were in fact from the FBI uniform code. Thereupon a witchhunt commenced directed against me and I was wrongly labelled as being racist. If you want to accuse anyone of racism, then accuse the FBI & DOJ for authoring the stats, if the stats are indeed bogus. While there is currently no link to the FBI stats (they were removed for being Un-PC) there IS a link to the DOJ stats. One wonders how long the DOJ stats will remain accessible via the net, as they are rather un-PC, as well.
The defense rests.
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<img src="http://lolcats2.com/full/Zorro.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
"In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf) black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man."
You (or the dumbfuck you're quoting from) are misreading the stats given in the linked report. The gender and racial stats you refer to in Table 30 (page 43 of the pdf) are only of victims; the only stats regarding perpetrators are about whether or not they were unknown to the victims, i.e. strangers. Also, the "zero and ten" figure is misread from the footnote indicating that many of the figures were estimates "based on about 10 or fewer SAMPLE cases" (my emphasis).
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There were fewer than 10 white on black rapes.
This is the reason the sample was low.
There were fewer than 10 black women victims nationwide.
So you think there should be calls for a sweeping investigation at the DOJ as they are not doing a proper job with stats?
Rhett should chime in.
Originally posted by beetsnotbeats:
Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
"In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf) black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man."
You (or the dumbfuck you're quoting from) are misreading the stats given in the linked report. The gender and racial stats you refer to in Table 30 (page 43 of the pdf) are only of victims; the only stats regarding perpetrators are about whether or not they were unknown to the victims, i.e. strangers. Also, the "zero and ten" figure is misread from the footnote indicating that many of the figures were estimates "based on about 10 or fewer SAMPLE cases" (my emphasis). [/b]
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Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
:D
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Originally posted by Dupek Chakra:
There were fewer than 10 white on black rapes.
This is the reason the sample was low.
There were fewer than 10 black women victims nationwide.
Mr. O'Reilly, none of your allegations are supported by the data and statistics published in the linked DOJ report.
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Originally posted by kosmo:
hopefully speaking on behalf of the board we would like to thank you for the monthly reminder and i'm sure women of all races will remain vigilant to protect themselves. now can you let it drop?
seriously, this thread is an embarrassment to the board. Any newbie who comes along and sees this is going to think we're all a bunch of beady-eyed bigots, when in fact only a few of us are....
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i would once like to see the stats of people convicted of violent crimes who grew up on welfare opposed to those who didn't.
has anyone stopped to think its not so much about race as it is about people who grew up with nothing?
i bet the amount of blacks convicted of violent crimes that live in affluent neighborhoods is probably about the same as the number of whites!
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I agree with what you're saying, but it's shameful to use poverty as an excuse for violent crime. Especially for something like rape, where they're not doing it out of a sense of financial desperation.
Originally posted by le sonick:
i would once like to see the stats of people convicted of violent crimes who grew up on welfare opposed to those who didn't.
has anyone stopped to think its not so much about race as it is about people who grew up with nothing?
i bet the amount of blacks convicted of violent crimes that live in affluent neighborhoods is probably about the same as the number of whites!
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
I agree with what you're saying, but it's shameful to use poverty as an excuse for violent crime. Especially for something like rape, where they're not doing it out of a sense of financial desperation.
you're a moron, no one uses poverty as an "excuse"
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
I agree with what you're saying, but it's shameful to use poverty as an excuse for violent crime. Especially for something like rape, where they're not doing it out of a sense of financial desperation.
Originally posted by le sonick:
i would once like to see the stats of people convicted of violent crimes who grew up on welfare opposed to those who didn't.
has anyone stopped to think its not so much about race as it is about people who grew up with nothing?
i bet the amount of blacks convicted of violent crimes that live in affluent neighborhoods is probably about the same as the number of whites!
[/b]
yeah, i wasnt really using poverty exactly as the reason, but children growing up on welfare usually go to crappy schools, have mothers who beat the crap out of them, and fathers that beat the crap out of their mothers. they are more likely to go to crappy schools, live in bad conditions, therefore may not grow up learning any kind of value of other peoples rights, safety or lives.
i just said "welfare" cause that would be easier to track than say, "kids who go to crappy schools"
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Originally posted by le sonick:
but children growing up on welfare usually...have mothers who beat the crap out of them, and fathers that beat the crap out of their mothers...
I know you didn't mean this. You're saying poor people "usually" beat their kids? Come on. That's not fair. There are lots of good poor people who love their kids.
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Originally posted by The Vessel:
Originally posted by le sonick:
but children growing up on welfare usually...have mothers who beat the crap out of them, and fathers that beat the crap out of their mothers...
I know you didn't mean this. You're saying poor people "usually" beat their kids? Come on. That's not fair. There are lots of good poor people who love their kids. [/b]
yes. i didnt mean usually and i actually meant to take usually out and replace it with (are more likely to) as i think i did in another part of my post.
the neighborhood i live in has many families on welfare and without employment and i cant count the times i've seen women hit their kids on the street...so i cant imagine what must happen inside.
but yes, i meant more likely, not usually. sorry :)
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does no one get what i am trying to say? people keep nitpicking the words i am using, making it seem like i am some horrible person who makes rash generalizations about people. i am assuming you take me as a real fuck.
but what i was trying to say, which i thought was pretty obvious, is that poverty and the effects of it, are more to blame for people committing violent crimes than race is. you guys arent really going to argue with that are you???????
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Who is taking you as a "real fuck"? I said I agreed with what you said!
Originally posted by le sonick:
does no one get what i am trying to say? people keep nitpicking the words i am using, making it seem like i am some horrible person who makes rash generalizations about people. i am assuming you take me as a real fuck.
but what i was trying to say, which i thought was pretty obvious, is that poverty and the effects of it, are more to blame for people committing violent crimes than race is. you guys arent really going to argue with that are you???????
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Who is taking you as a "real fuck"? I said I agreed with what you said!
Originally posted by le sonick:
does no one get what i am trying to say? people keep nitpicking the words i am using, making it seem like i am some horrible person who makes rash generalizations about people. i am assuming you take me as a real fuck.
but what i was trying to say, which i thought was pretty obvious, is that poverty and the effects of it, are more to blame for people committing violent crimes than race is. you guys arent really going to argue with that are you???????
[/b]
well then i guess not you! ;)
still though, sorry for all the crazy late night posts everyone!!
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Race has nothing to do with Black rapists of white women. It's merely a happy coincidence.