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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: markie on June 02, 2003, 01:39:00 pm
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http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,968533,00.html (http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,968533,00.html)
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Three words.
EMPIRE STATE BUILDING
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Blah, blah, blah.
The hard facts are that nobody is really in denial. Nobody talks a lot about it, but there is a sizable segment of the population that truly believes it is up to the US to put the world in order (I'm not saying I'm a member of that segment).
The Cold War was easy -- You were with us or you were with the Soviet bloc. Then the USSR fell and everything got compliclated. You had a multipolar world with various groups vying for multiple interests beyond the simplicity of communism vs capitalist-democracy. And all these groups were rapidly gaining the ability to have far-reaching effects due to WMD and increased economic integration.
Various extremist factions have flourished in the vacuum left by the end of the Cold War and, even before 9/11, some quarters of American political culture were calling for a hard-nosed approach to addressing the nascent threats of the world. 9/11 just served as an example of why they believe we need to do so.
So rather than trotting out the idea that the US is an empire, as though this is some revelation, why doesn't the anti-imperialist movement address two things:
1- Why shouldn't the US be an empire?
2- Who is going to shape the post Cold War world.
If they answered those questions rather than acting like they are Woodward and Bernstein when they announce that the US is using its role as the world's sole superpower to push its own agenda (SHOCKING!!!!), they might get a bit farther than they've gotten in fighting American imperialism.
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Originally posted by ggw:
So rather than trotting out the idea that the US is an empire, as though this is some revelation, why doesn't the anti-imperialist movement address two things:
1- Why shouldn't the US be an empire?
2- Who is going to shape the post Cold War world.
But for there to be a treatment there has to be a diagnosis. It seems to have taken the rest of the world a long time to come round to the the fact that America is a lone superpower and can ride rough-shod over the earth.
That wouldnt be so bad if America was benign or benovolent, lately it is neither. I guess that would be an answer to number 1.
I guess the answer to number two is what China and Europe and perhaps Russia has to ask themselves. Personally the sooner the next cold war starts the better. Please bring an end to swingeing unilateralism.
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All empires fall sooner or later.
I predict China will be the next empire to bully the earth after America falls.
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<img src="http://irregulartimes.com/bushdunce.gif" alt=" - " />
ALL HAIL THE MUNIFICENT< BENEVOLENT KING !
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Hey! That emperor has new clothes.
(will somebody please teach him how to say "nuclear" for crying out loud...it must be embarrassing for you yankee-doodles to hear your king say "nuckula" all the time)
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The court jester!
<img src="http://www.wibx950.com/photo/talk-rush.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by markie:
But for there to be a treatment there has to be a diagnosis. It seems to have taken the rest of the world a long time to come round to the the fact that America is a lone superpower and can ride rough-shod over the earth.
That wouldnt be so bad if America was benign or benovolent, lately it is neither. I guess that would be an answer to number 1.
I guess the answer to number two is what China and Europe and perhaps Russia has to ask themselves. Personally the sooner the next cold war starts the better. Please bring an end to swingeing unilateralism.
Hey Markie, if you don't like it, fuck off and leave. That's what the first people who settled here did and now they're nation is the dangerous one? Go start your only colony and 200 years from now some snot nosed visitor will post some bitter old American Academic that claims that kingdom of Markieca is now in charge and doing it poorly, learning nothing from its predecessors. High and mighty bitter yapping if you ask me. Just like those before them.
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<img src="http://www.jamiefuller.co.uk/b3ta/gary.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Someone always has to be the bully and I would rather be bullied by Uncle Sam than China, 1940's Germany, the Romans or Stalin era soviet union.
Count your blessings markie.....markieville, in the great state of Utahpia will never exist.
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do O have to remind you two what imperialism means?
im·pe·ri·al·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-pîr--lzm)
n.
1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
does that sound like a nice thing to happen?
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I listened to a very interesting program yesterday. The Pentagon is seriously considering pulling US troops out of foriegn bases....Germany, S. Korea, Saudi Arabia and Japan to name a few, as they are no longer needed for the security of both the US and the country were these bases are. These are countries that are bitching about the yanks being there so FUCK EM! We'll take our troops and all the economic benefits that go along with it out of the place. Sounds like a plan to me! Poland seems to be an ideal place for a small base to use as a landing point should any country within striking distance start screaming for the big bad eagle to come rescue them.
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<img src="http://media.abcnews.com/media/us/images/wolffiles17_eddiemain.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2002/news/skijumping_quiz/t1_eagle_all.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by markie:
do O have to remind you two what imperialism means?
im·pe·ri·al·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-pîr--lzm)
n.
1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
does that sound like a nice thing to happen?
Hummmmmmm? Sounds like Great Britain of yore! Do you think that most people in Scotland and Wales like to call themselves British? You know what they say about people who live in glass houses.
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Originally posted by Yank:
Hummmmmmm? Sounds like Great Britain of yore! Do you think that most people in Scotland and Wales like to call themselves British? You know what they say about people who live in glass houses.
people who live in glass houses are plants?
hegemony DOES sound like an awful word...
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Originally posted by Yank:
Hummmmmmm? Sounds like Great Britain of yore! Do you think that most people in Scotland and Wales like to call themselves British? You know what they say about people who live in glass houses.
[/b]
Actually yank...the Welsh voted to stay British and the N. Irish protestants want to be known as "British"
I don't like to be called "British"...I'm ENGLISH (who happens to own an American passport as well!)
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by Yank:
Hummmmmmm? Sounds like Great Britain of yore! Do you think that most people in Scotland and Wales like to call themselves British? You know what they say about people who live in glass houses.
[/b]
Actually yank...the Welsh voted to stay British and the N. Irish protestants want to be known as "British"
I don't like to be called "British"...I'm ENGLISH (who happens to own an American passport as well!) [/b]
Give it up. You're an American now. Stop trying to run away from that fact, bro.
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Originally posted by ggw:
Give it up. You're an American now. Stop trying to run away from that fact, bro.
[/b]
"Hello, my name is Mankie and I'm an American"
:(
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poormankie
Oh BTW what was the war on Iraq for again? ((especially for you GGW, you overly smug hawk)
Oh free the Iraqi people
prevent terrorism
destroy WMD
or none of the above.
some days I think you lot live in the MATRIX (tm)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,970331,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,970331,00.html)
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by Yank:
Hummmmmmm? Sounds like Great Britain of yore! Do you think that most people in Scotland and Wales like to call themselves British? You know what they say about people who live in glass houses.
[/b]
Actually yank...the Welsh voted to stay British and the N. Irish protestants want to be known as "British"
I don't like to be called "British"...I'm ENGLISH (who happens to own an American passport as well!) [/b]
Come on Mankie, I'd expect better from you than this. The Irish of N. Ireland wanting to be known of as British is purely political. It's not their love of the English, and you know it.
As for the Welsh, I would think that's political and finanical. I've only been over here for about 14 months but even I know that the Welsh in the north will start to speak to each other in their native tongue when they know an Englishperson is present. And you know why they do it.
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Originally posted by markie:
poormankie
Oh BTW what was the war on Iraq for again? ((especially for you GGW, you overly smug hawk)
Oh free the Iraqi people
prevent terrorism
destroy WMD
or none of the above.
some days I think you lot live in the MATRIX (tm)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,970331,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,970331,00.html)
That article is correct. North Korea is in a desparate state. Items like oil and food have value as bargaining chips. Iraq is awash in oil which is readily smuggled across the border and turned into cash. They had been under an embargo for ten years and there were no bargaining chips left.
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Originally posted by Yank:
Come on Mankie, I'd expect better from you than this. The Irish of N. Ireland wanting to be known of as British is purely political. It's not their love of the English, and you know it.
MY WIFE'S IRISH AND SHE LOVES AN ENGLISHMAN! SERIOUSLY, IT'S NOT EVEN POLITICAL AT THIS POINT, IT'S ORGANIZED CRIME.
As for the Welsh, I would think that's political and finanical. I've only been over here for about 14 months but even I know that the Welsh in the north will start to speak to each other in their native tongue when they know an Englishperson is present. And you know why they do it.
THAT'S NO BIG DEAL...IF A COCKNEY TWAT EVER SHOWED UP AROUND US IN MANC WE'D JUST BROADEN OUR ACCENTS AND TAKE THE PISS OUT OF THE FUCKER...THAT'S DONE WHEREVER YOU GO.
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The fact remains they want to be British...for whatever reason. I don't though, the St. George cross is my flag!
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Originally posted by ggw:
They had been under an embargo for ten years and there were no bargaining chips left.
GGW you must be twirling, king of spin....
you posted before that you thought they were invading Iraq to increase world safety and destroy WMDs.
The article states that American politician believed that WMDs had already been destroyed and Wolfowitz said,
"for reasons that have a lot to do with the US government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on: weapons of mass destruction."
So for reasons of bureacracy American people were lied to.
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Hey Mankie, I think Robin Williams is in charge at the Pentagon! Have you seen the email going around stating the The Robin Williams "Peace Plan"
Goes like this:
I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of one plan for peace. " Books, not Bombs" won't work. The head mullahs won't let anyone read them. If they do, they poke their
eyes out.
So, HERE'S the plan:
1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini and the rest of them 'good old boys'. We will never "interfere"
again.
2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there, anyway.
We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.
3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.
4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change
it yourself, don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any
more cab drivers.
5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.
6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energywise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the
Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.
7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.
8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides' most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if any anyway.
9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.
9b) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin towers.
10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.
Now, ain't that a winner of a plan? The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying; "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, "You want
a piece of me?"
- Robin Williams
(somehow I seriously doubt this is Robin Williams, but then again it's not that funny, so it might be his)
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Originally posted by markie:
Originally posted by ggw:
They had been under an embargo for ten years and there were no bargaining chips left.
GGW you must be twirling, king of spin....
you posted before that you thought they were invading Iraq to increase world safety and destroy WMDs.
The article states that American politician believed that WMDs had already been destroyed and Wolfowitz said,
"for reasons that have a lot to do with the US government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on: weapons of mass destruction."
So for reasons of bureacracy American people were lied to. [/b]
I guess it depends on your preconceived notions. The way I read that statement is that there were many competing reasons for invading Iraq and, for purposes of "keeping on message", they settled on the one everybody could agree on.
I don't think anyone's view would change if no WMD are found. Hussein could have shown that he destroyed his weapons at any time and had the sanctions lifted. He didn't. So, are you saying that he destroyed his weapons, but preferred to live under the sanctions so he never bothered to show that he destroyed the weapons, nor keep any proof of that? We operated under the assumption that a man with a known weeapons program, who had nothing to gain (and everything to lose) by secretly destroying that program, would logically still have that program since he has refused to show any evidence to the contrary.
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I think markie has the WMD's under his bed.
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Originally posted by mankie:
I think markie has the WMD's under his bed.
unlike in his pants! (so I hear)
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Originally posted by G.Love:
Originally posted by mankie:
I think markie has the WMD's under his bed.
unlike in his pants! (so I hear) [/b]
Well if one accidently went off, it would be the first time the earth has moved for his wife while he's in the bed!
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Originally posted by G.Love:
Originally posted by mankie:
I think markie has the WMD's under his bed.
unlike in his pants! (so I hear) [/b]
That is correct I have WML in my pants.
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Originally posted by markie:
That is correct I have WML in my pants.
Wireless Markup Language?
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Originally posted by ggw:
The way I read that statement is that there were many competing reasons for invading Iraq and, for purposes of "keeping on message", they settled on the one everybody could agree on.
but that isnt justified when the other guy said that, (to paraphrase)" we knew they had no weapons of mass destrucion".
You have been lied to and heads should roll. Or by expecting your government to lie to you it makes it all alright?
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Originally posted by markie:
You have been lied to and heads should roll. Or by expecting your government to lie to you it makes it all alright?
[/b]
I think they use lethal injection these days markie.
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Originally posted by markie:
Originally posted by ggw:
The way I read that statement is that there were many competing reasons for invading Iraq and, for purposes of "keeping on message", they settled on the one everybody could agree on.
but that isnt justified when the other guy said that, (to paraphrase)" we knew they had no weapons of mass destrucion".
[/b]
Who said that?
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Originally posted by ggw:
Originally posted by markie:
Originally posted by ggw:
The way I read that statement is that there were many competing reasons for invading Iraq and, for purposes of "keeping on message", they settled on the one everybody could agree on.
but that isnt justified when the other guy said that, (to paraphrase)" we knew they had no weapons of mass destrucion".
[/b]
Who said that? [/b]
markie!
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Actually GGW, I overstated my case, I am sorry.
"Prior to that, his boss, defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld, had already undermined the British government's position by saying Saddam Hussein may have destroyed his banned weapons before the war"
Still it does not change the fact that they lied about the reasons for war.
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Originally posted by jadetree:
Originally posted by markie:
That is correct I have WML in my pants.
Wireless Markup Language? [/b]
Love, silly.
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It would be nice if this new board could handle multiple quotes.
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Originally posted by markie:
Actually GGW, I overstated my case, I am sorry.
"Prior to that, his boss, defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld, had already undermined the British government's position by saying Saddam Hussein may have destroyed his banned weapons before the war"
Still it does not change the fact that they lied about the reasons for war.
How so?
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"for reasons that have a lot to do with the US government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on: weapons of mass destruction."
does this mean that WMD were the real reason for the war?
Surely then he would of said the reason for the war was WMDs.
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I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe the war was really over what they said it was for...I firmly believe that the war was started as a personal vendetta of Dubya because Saddam Hussein tried to kill his pappa.
Nevertheless, Hussein had to go and now he's gone the world is a better place and the people of Iraq will have a better life for themselves, especially the shiites, kurds and women.
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that all may be true. But to accept that government is lying to you ishould not be acceptable.
Government is supposed to be accountable in a democracy, remember?
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Originally posted by markie:
"for reasons that have a lot to do with the US government bureaucracy, we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on: weapons of mass destruction."
does this mean that WMD were the real reason for the war?
Surely then he would of said the reason for the war was WMDs.
Like I said before, I read that as meaning that there were multiple competing motives and for reasons of simplicity (i.e. anti-bureaucratic) they settled on the one reason everyone agreed upon.
If you leave your spot at the front of the crowd to get a beer and to go to the bathroom, but only tell your wife that you're going to the bathroom, have you lied about why you left your spot?
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Originally posted by markie:
that all may be true. But to accept that government is lying to you ishould not be acceptable.
Government is supposed to be accountable in a democracy, remember?
No. Just a few years ago the American public made it clear that lying by the President, even under oath, is completely acceptable.
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But going to the toilet is not like waging war .....
If the government wages war it should explain the motives in an open and fair manner and it should be debateable, I mean open to debate.
If I say I am going to buy you a blue fizzy water, but I add some rophenol (sp) and let you drink it, would I have lied to you?
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I kind of agree with you markie, but governments lie to the people all the time, even in a democratic society (which America isn't by the way)..politicians tell us what they think we want to hear so they can do what they want to do...if you don't like what they do you vote them out next time round..or be a cynical old bastard like me and come to the realization that they're all as bad as each other so what's the point.
My biggest problem is the republicans spent billions of the taxpayers money on a witch hunt over wether he got a blowjob or not, while they eagerly accept their dude telling porkie pies to send the country to war.
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the difference is in Britain, Blair is getting in real trouble for this. And I feel, rightly so.
Here no one seems too bothered. Which I find heinous.
If you cant believe your government its a very sorry state of affairs. Your Laissez faire attitude to being lied to, just expecting it, doesnt mean that the slap in the face doesnt hurt when it arrives.
America may well be on the way to becoming a very bad place.
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Originally posted by ggw:
If you leave your spot at the front of the crowd to get a beer and to go to the bathroom, but only tell your wife that you're going to the bathroom, have you lied about why you left your spot?
[/b]
So if your g/f or wife goes out for a lasses night out and she meets up with some bloke...oh, let's call him "mankee", and ends up having great sex with him. The next morning you ask how her evening was and she say's "great"...That's not lying in your opinion...right?
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Originally posted by markie:
America may well be on the way to becoming a very bad place.
That I don't doubt...but it will be a while, and why I made the comment earlier that all empires will fall.
My Nostromankie prediction is that many many years from now a united Europe will attack from the Atlantic as a united Asia attacks from the Pacific, and the world will be end up as one big portabello.
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