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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: G.Love on June 11, 2003, 05:27:00 am
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VH1 named Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" the greatest song of the past quarter-century on its list of the "100 Greatest Songs of the Past 25 Years."
While no one performer or group dominated the countdown, which was chosen by a panel of VH1 executives, several had two songs featured.
Michael Jackson had the second-highest song, "Billie Jean," and was at No. 40 with "Beat It." Eminem reached No. 4 with "Lose Yourself," while his "My Name Is" was No. 85. Madonna's "Like a Virgin" was No. 10 and her "Ray of Light" was No. 100.
Rounding out the top 10 were "Sweet Child O' Mine" by Guns N' Roses, "One" by U2, "Walk This Way" by Run-D.M.C., "When Doves Cry" by Prince, "I Will Always Love You" by Whitney Houston and "Every Breath You Take" by The Police.
GLOVE commentary:
IF THAT IS THE LIST, THEN WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP THE LAST 25 YEARS WAS!!!!
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/11/vh1.greatest.songs.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/11/vh1.greatest.songs.ap/index.html)
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Wonder what the guidelines were? Which songs brought in the most advertising dollars?
The more of these lists that I see, the more I hate them.
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What a shame. I am I the only one who fails to see what the big deal with Nirvana is?
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not at all. i think people put the whole early 90's rock/grunge movement on them, when in fact they were just one of many bands. nirvana just made it big commericially and was a media darling. i think mother love bone had more influence and credibility in the movement.
then again maybe my argument doesn't hold water since mother love bone then kinda turned into pearl jam a couple years later.
and whitney houston? for what? she didn't even write the damn song! it was dolly parton!
Originally posted by keithstg:
What a shame. I am I the only one who fails to see what the big deal with Nirvana is?
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Originally posted by Jaguär:
The more of these lists that I see, the more I hate them.
me too!!!!
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Originally posted by keithstg:
What a shame. I am I the only one who fails to see what the big deal with Nirvana is?
Nope, you're not the only one.
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Originally posted by Joy Monster:
Originally posted by keithstg:
What a shame. I am I the only one who fails to see what the big deal with Nirvana is?
Nope, you're not the only one. [/b]
In fact....I'd bet we're the silent majority!
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Originally posted by keithstg:
What a shame. I am I the only one who fails to see what the big deal with Nirvana is?
Some people hadn't been exposed to "underground" or "alternative" rock, so Nirvana and their ilk having commercial success made more people aware of something other than glam or classic rock. Kind of like marijuana can serve as a gateway drug into the harder stuff, commercially successful bands like Nirvana exposed some people to bands that they otherwise never would have heard.
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Nirvana < almost all of their stated influences.
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Originally posted by larkjr:
Nirvana < almost all of their stated influences.
ooh, ooh, will the lead singers of these "influenced" bands blow their brains out too please?
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Originally posted by keithstg:
What a shame. I am I the only one who fails to see what the big deal with Nirvana is?
Ask the radio stations that were about to go out of business because they didn't play the big hair bands if they see what the big deal about that Nirvana song is....
I, for one, say cheers to that song and so will many scholars down the road for it's impact - not necessarily it musicianship. With the deregulation of radio, if it weren't for that song great stations like KROQ in LA would have gone bankrupt for certain.
It changed the music industry forever.
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no matter how many times i hear the opening riff of "smells like teen spirit" it still sends chills down my spine...
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This Nirvana argument reminds me of the email debate I've had over Liz Phair's "Exile in Guyville." With the new album coming, and sucking so supremely, I was really saddened. A friend took the opportunity to state that Guyville was the most overrated album of the 90s for blahblahblah reasons, mostly dealing with "the music/songs just aren't that great."
In the end, my P.O.V. was that it's *influence* is not debatable. Okay, it's not the Stones or Beatles, but she opened a lot of doors to real women singing real songs, whether they're pretty or not. Maybe Janis Joplin or others did this as well, but she certainly raised the awareness to a newer generation.
So, what's interesting in light of the Nirvana discussion (which I agree with), is that an album or artist's influence may have little to do with the music itself. It's where that artist shifts the (I won't say paradigm, I swear I won't say paradigm) spectrum of *popular* music.
Now that I'm finished, I hope this makes sense to someone but me!! :cool:
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boy there is a lot to say on this thread...
i'll start with my objection to thinking that more people don't see the big deal about Nirvana is probably the majoirty. Your wrong.
If them being seen as the forefront of that scene (or media darlings, is the term I think was used) that doesn't make them less artistic. Just more successful. I have issues with bashers of popular people/groups/etc.... You KNow sometimes things are popular because their good.
on another note, lists like these do annoy me at times and sometimes i like them ....i think its most important to look at what criteria was used to create these lists and who are they focused towards....the list in question comes from VH1. Therefore it is supposed to suck and come from popularity, instead of complete merit. VH1 is smart enough to put some weight towards merit, but what kind of list would it be it every song was b sides and non singles for the casaul music fan...it would be off-putting and if you've ever watched VH1, you'd know that casaul music fan is there core audience.
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I guess then that it would depend on what you think of the modern rock format that the success of Nirvana's single created. I think it is pathetic, from ridiculous imitators like the Offspring on down the line.
I looked at KROQ's playlist and consider it complete trash.
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They may be responsible for kids wearing flannel shirts tied round their wastes, but they were still FUCKING SHITE! The only talent out of that band was Grohl, who is a bloody genius, and I'm not a great fan of his music, but the man is talented...the other two were just in a band that were in the right place at the right time.
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Originally posted by larkjr:
I guess then that it would depend on what you think of the modern rock format that the success of Nirvana's single created. I think it is pathetic, from ridiculous imitators like the Offspring on down the line.
I looked at KROQ's playlist and consider it complete trash.
Very good point -- I wonder how the timing of Nirvana and all its influence coincides with the debilitating decline of modern rock radio in the U.S. Back in the late 80s, WHFS was a wonder. I can't listen to a minute of it now, and haven't been able to for about....5, 6 years?? Maybe longer. I'd rather listen to DC101 (which is why I don't listen to the radio).
Would be interesting to dig into this 'coincidence.'
And Mankie's right, as is often the case (from what I've seen so far!). Grohl is really quite brilliant. Brilliant. And I *do* like his new music. But damn that man can do anything, and enjoy himself (and be funny) while doing it.
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i have to completely disagree with the statement that dave grohl was the only talent in nirvana, i think that is pretty ridiculous, especially since grohl came after some of my favorite nirvana songs...(this is not to take away from grohl's talent, he's great)
i think instead of looking at the decline of modern rock and somehow placing blame on nirvana, it is probably more worthwhile to think of where modern rock would be if nirvana hadn't had left us, instead of having 2nd rate nirvana wannabe's trying to live up to a rock icon that they'd never live up to because of the history of it we'd have the real thing continuing to push the envelope and making the other bands work harder.
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After Nirvana broke, there was a sense to me of excitement, something new in the air. Perhaps now there was a possibility that great format-busting music could emerge from the underground en masse to be heard by anyone on their radios. This didn't happen, the ??alternative? stations behaved like all other stations, demanding that everything fit within their narrow format definition, and playing the same songs from bands like Nirvana and Pearl Jam over and over again, 12 times a day. (I mean, didn??t we already own these albums?) Not to blame station programmers, they are just responding to advertisers and teenagers demands.
So really, Nirvana didn??t change anything, and that??s why I tend to evaluate them like any other band, based on the merits of their music alone. Which is to say, they weren't bad, for music on the radio.
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Originally posted by larkjr:
So really, Nirvana didn??t change anything, and that??s why I tend to evaluate them like any other band, based on the merits of their music alone. Which is to say, they weren't bad, for music on the radio.
I think, in the end, radio just plain sucks. If I were an eleven year old girl again, I might feel differently (but would be back to "sucks" by 14!)
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actually i disagree about nirvana not changing anything. like the sex pistols who helped put an end to 70's art wank of yes, elo, etc. nirvana helped put an end to the 80's hair metal. they came out and proved that you didn't need puffed up hair, vinyl pants and eyeliner to rock out. just wearing what you put on that morning was fine.
Nirvana were never a grunge band, they were much more punk and pop, then the grunge bands from the pacific northwest which were Soundgarden, Pearl Jam and Mother Love Bone.
Grohl has done some great work post Nirvana, but I would not consider his Foo Fighters stuff stellar and rather just a pale imitation of the Nirvana. Most of the records are filler with the occasional single. And his lyrics are pretty subpar... anyone remember "Fingernails are Pretty, Fingernails are Good, Seems That All They Ever Wanted Was A Marking " from one of that bands first singles?
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Once again, I'm in agreement with Kosmo.
Originally posted by kosmo:
actually i disagree about nirvana not changing anything. like the sex pistols who helped put an end to 70's art wank of yes, elo, etc. nirvana helped put an end to the 80's hair metal. they came out and proved that you didn't need puffed up hair, vinyl pants and eyeliner to rock out. just wearing what you put on that morning was fine.
Nirvana were never a grunge band, they were much more punk and pop, then the grunge bands from the pacific northwest which were Soundgarden, Pearl Jam and Mother Love Bone.
Grohl has done some great work post Nirvana, but I would not consider his Foo Fighters stuff stellar and rather just a pale imitation of the Nirvana. Most of the records are filler with the occasional single. And his lyrics are pretty subpar... anyone remember "Fingernails are Pretty, Fingernails are Good, Seems That All They Ever Wanted Was A Marking " from one of that bands first singles?
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foo fighter - the lager louts = oasis
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Given who VH-1 is, the selection comes as no surprise.
Who did you guys think they were going to pick? Some Mother Love Bone song? Some Guided By Voices song.
That Nirvana song was instrumental in introducing "alternative rock" to the mainstream. Did alternative rock and alternative radio go downhill after that? I would argue yes. Once something is introduced to the mainstream the bojective switches from making something for the sake of the art to making something for the sake of the sale.
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Originally posted by kosmo:
foo fighter - the lager louts = oasis
huh! :(
Do you mean
Oasis - the lager louts = Foo Fighter
OR
Foo Fighter + lager louts = Oasis
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doh... still got the polyphonic spree bouncing around in my head.. that and all my teachers said i didn't pay attention to detail.
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Originally posted by kosmo:
actually i disagree about nirvana not changing anything. like the sex pistols who helped put an end to 70's art wank of yes, elo, etc. nirvana helped put an end to the 80's hair metal. they came out and proved that you didn't need puffed up hair, vinyl pants and eyeliner to rock out. just wearing what you put on that morning was fine.
Nirvana were never a grunge band, they were much more punk and pop, then the grunge bands from the pacific northwest which were Soundgarden, Pearl Jam and Mother Love Bone.
Grohl has done some great work post Nirvana, but I would not consider his Foo Fighters stuff stellar and rather just a pale imitation of the Nirvana. Most of the records are filler with the occasional single. And his lyrics are pretty subpar... anyone remember "Fingernails are Pretty, Fingernails are Good, Seems That All They Ever Wanted Was A Marking " from one of that bands first singles?
Sure, Nirvana may have brought people away from hair bands, but ultimately I think that they failed to produce anything that had not been done, and done better, before.
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Ok, then what would be your top 5 songs post 1978 and pre-Nirvana?
Sure, Nirvana may have brought people away from hair bands, but ultimately I think that they failed to produce anything that had not been done, and done better, before. [/QB]
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Given who VH-1 is, the selection comes as no surprise.
Who did you guys think they were going to pick? Some Mother Love Bone song? Some Guided By Voices song.
Well, yes clearly The Goldheart Mountaintop Queen Directory is the best song of the last 25 years. I cannot believe VH1 can fail to put it in the top 100 ;)
That Nirvana song was instrumental in introducing "alternative rock" to the mainstream. Did alternative rock and alternative radio go downhill after that? I would argue yes. Once something is introduced to the mainstream the bojective switches from making something for the sake of the art to making something for the sake of the sale.
Surely you cannot be saying Nirvana made records for the sake of art. If anything, they were the first "art" band making records just for the sale.
On the hair metal thing, they did seem to knock GnR off their roost but this kind of thing happens all the time. I don't see how this "changed the music industry", just the usual ebb and flow of what's hot and what's not. Hair metal was so rotted out any slight breeze would of brought it down.
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well i think axl not nirvana brought g n' r down...
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I don't think Kurt Cobain had mainstream success and record sales as his primary goal when he wrote "Smells Like Teen Spirit". Certainly no more than Husker Du, The Replacements, the Pixies, or whoever else preceded them.
Whatever you think of Guns and Roses, I think it's sort of silly to lunp them in with hair metal bands. I'm not the biggest GNR fan in the world, but I think they themselves started a musical move away from hair metal fluff.
Of "Smells Like Teen Spirit," Guns N' Roses bassist Duff McKagan said: "That was really a breakthrough for a great scene that had been going on for a long time up in Seattle. And it was kind of another victory, I think, for a misunderstood music, you know. The dam broke when 'Teen Spirit' came out."
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Originally posted by kosmo:
well i think axl not nirvana brought g n' r down...
It's a shame Axl didn't blow his own brains out as well.
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Why? What harm is he doing to any of us these days?
Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by kosmo:
well i think axl not nirvana brought g n' r down...
It's a shame Axl didn't blow his own brains out as well. [/b]
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
[QB]
Why? What harm is he doing to any of us these days?
He's a wanker....reason enough for me. And I bet the girl he anally raped and urinated on probably agrees with me.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Ok, then what would be your top 5 songs post 1978 and pre-Nirvana?
Sure, Nirvana may have brought people away from hair bands, but ultimately I think that they failed to produce anything that had not been done, and done better, before. [/b]
[/QB]
Briefly, and without checking dates (I think TV might have been 1977)
1. Marquee Moon - TV
2. What do I get - Buzzcocks
3. In My Eyes - Minor Threat
4. Miserable Lie - The Smiths
5. China Girl - Bowie
I don't mean to imply that any of these songs would have been on VH1's number one list, but Nirvana as a whole I feel is horribly overrated.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Whatever you think of Guns and Roses, I think it's sort of silly to lunp them in with hair metal bands. I'm not the biggest GNR fan in the world, but I think they themselves started a musical move away from hair metal fluff.
Actually, you're right about GnR doing more to knock out hair metal bands. I didn't really want to lump them in with those hair bands, it just sort of came out that way though laziness.
I'm not really arguing against the quality of Smells Like.., it's an important song (whatever that's worth) and VH1 couldn't of put another one up there.
It's just statements like "Nirvana changed the music industry" that get under my skin. It's the same false, tired old argument that people have to combat the suggestion that Nirvana is an extremely overated band.
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I gave myself 5 minutes to come up with 5 important songs, post 78 and pre Nirvana.
Here's what I came with.
Heroes - Bowie
London Calling - The Clash
Whole of the Moon - The Waterboys
Pretty in Pink - Psychadelic Furs
Song for Whoever - The Beautiful South
I know there's no American bands up there, that was not intentional. Remember, I was living in UK up until 85, and I was just seeing what would come to me immediately.
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perhaps there are songs by bands such as
Jam
Smiths
Stone Roses
Happy Mondays
Blur
New Order/Joy Division
The Fall
Oasis (just for Fico)
Oh and maybe some rap acts.....
that a lot of people have forgotten
Mankie sheep by the housemartins would have made a much less twee choice than the BS.
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
perhaps there are songs by bands such as
Jam
Smiths
Stone Roses
Happy Mondays
Blur
New Order/Joy Division
The Fall
Oasis (just for Fico)
Oh and maybe some rap acts.....
that a lot of people have forgotten
Mankie sheep by the housemartins would have made a much less twee choice than the BS.
I'm sure given more time my list would be a lot different. Those were the first five that came to me.
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Originally posted by kosmo:
foo fighter - the lager louts = oasis
That is just plain nuts! Many bands have Oasis living deep down in their souls, but not Foo Fighters.
We all have guilty pleasures (though I feel no guilt *whatsoever*).
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Originally posted by bags:
Originally posted by kosmo:
foo fighter - the lager louts = oasis
That is just plain nuts! Many bands have Oasis living deep down in their souls, but not Foo Fighters.
We all have guilty pleasures (though I feel no guilt *whatsoever*). [/b]
If nothing else, Oasis got British music out of a huge stale, boring hole.
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Originally posted by mankie:
If nothing else, you can find an Oasis in my huge stale, boring hole.
thanks, mank, but I, for one, will pass
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Originally posted by Celeste:
Originally posted by mankie:
If nothing else, you can find an Oasis in my huge stale, boring hole.
thanks, mank, I, for one, will jump at the chance
[/b]
You hussy, and recently married too!
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Originally posted by larkjr:
I looked at KROQ's playlist and consider it complete trash.
I wasn't talking about the KROQ playlist of today. The KROQ playlist today reminds of the trash that was on KROQ before "Smells like Teen Spirit" - there was a huge gap in modern/alternative/new music between the early to mid 80's with The Cure, New Order, Depeche Mode, pre Auchtung U2, the new wave 80's, the Smiths, REM, etc. Take a look at their top 100 of each year of the 80's and you'll see what I'm talking about. (http://earlhoward.com/kroq.htm)
From 88-91 the popular radio scene was dominated by big hair make-up bands Warrant, White Snake, White Lion, GnR, Poison blah blah blah.
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Originally posted by mankie:
If nothing else, Oasis got British music out of a huge stale, boring hole. [/QB]
I would argue that the Stone Roses were the ones that did that?
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Originally posted by G.Love:
Originally posted by mankie:
If nothing else, Oasis got British music out of a huge stale, boring hole. [/b]
I would argue that the Stone Roses were the ones that did that? [/QB]
Maybe the first time round, but it went back into a bigger hole that Oasis dug them out of.