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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: freakoretardo on May 17, 2006, 03:30:00 pm
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I'm on this other music message board and this topic has some people seriously duking it out.
I'm interested in hearing some well articulated thoughts/insights on which band has been more influential to music as we know it today and why.
Go.
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2 completely different bands, I don't think it's even a fair question. Zep influenced bands that for the most part have little or no overlap with bands influenced by the Velvets. That's just my opinion. It's like asking if Kraftwerk was more influential than the Ramones. They both have their impact on music, but in different ways.
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The Velvets probably had more influence on the music I like.. Though, sorry to be negative, I can't stand listening to either band.
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Innaresting.
I understand how different both bands are ;) . Therein lies the discussion. Was there a carryover with the bands influenced, or not?
I grew up on Zeppelin as a little kid, and got in to the V.U. as my music tastes matured....
But I can see how both might overlap into certain styles of music. Say, a singer songwriter may have been influenced by both growing up and extracted elements...
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I think a better match would be Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath. This always also fueled a nice debate over which was the first "metal" band.
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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Originally posted by MindCage:
I think a better match would be Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath. This always also fueled a nice debate over which was the first "metal" band.
The answer is.....neither.
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VU was the more influential band. Their influence can even be heard in Zeppelin, in terms of the use of dissonance and distortion. VU essentially created the framework for hard rock (listen to songs like "I'm Waiting for the Man", "I Heard Her Call My Name", etc.) Then they went and influenced pop music with Loaded. Nearly every band in existence owes a debt to VU whether they are aware of it or not. I'm not discounting Zeppelin's influence, but it's not as great as VU.
Not to mention the fact that any band that acknowledges VU as an influence will undoubtedly be better than a band that acknowledges Zeppelin.
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Let's not forget that Zeppelin had an unfortunate tendency to rip off old-time bluesmasters, with no credit or royalties...
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Originally posted by D O C T O R D O O O O O M:
Let's not forget that Zeppelin had an unfortunate tendency to rip off old-time bluesmasters, with no credit or royalties...
I probably wouldn't have been as harsh, but I was thinking the same thing. Zeppelin was primarily a blues band. They're Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson cranked up to 11. They may have inspired a bunch of people to get out there and rock, but I think VU had a bigger musical influence.
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An argument could be made that since Zepplin was the more mainstream and far more popular of the two bands that they were more influential. People tend to be influenced by what they are exposed to whether it be art, music, film etc. etc.
Iâ??m not taking anything away from VU, simply stating the obvious.
However, an argument could also be made that since The Underground formed earlier than Zepplin and may have influenced Zepplin themselves, then by default and through osmosis The Velvet Underground was more influential.
Of course I kind of find these debates silly to tell the truth. I mean who really cares?
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Led Zep
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No question its an apples / oranges question like asking which drug is responsible for better music - cocaine or heroin. Interesting debate, but there can't be a definitive answer.
As has been mentioned, Zeppelin's influence was broader, while VU influenced a select few with a big impact.
I think VU introduced an element of music as "modern art" which I'm not sure existed before them. That's huge. And they were unique.
Zeppelin amplified the blues. As the Stones and the Who had done to varying degrees before them. Where does the Who influence end and the Zeppelin influence begin?
Each of VU's 4 official releases were completely different. Between them, they cover all the bases, and influenced a very diverse group of followers. From (for example) I'm Waiting for My Man to What Goes On to Sunday Morning to Sister Ray to the mellow come down of their third album to Sweet Jane to Rock and Roll . . . how many different genres did they inspire??
I suppose every guitar "wank" owes something to Jimmy Page. . . . but its like the White Stripes. Awesome band. New take on the blues. But its more of a link in a chain than an inspiration.
An interesting corallary question is who are the Top 5 bands influenced by each group? Zeppelin's would be who - Aerosmith, Guns N' Roses, Licensed to Ill era Beastie Boys . .who else worth mentioning . . Motley Crue? Van Halen?? Who else?? Seriously . . . Obviously the whole heavy metal scene of the 80s derived from Zeppelin, but what great bands has Zeppelin influenced that I'm missing.
VU . . .you can start w/ Bowie; Stooges; the CBGB scene; Modern Lovers; R.E.M.; Sonic Youth . . . everyone those guys influenced in turn . . .
Of course some bands must be considered influenced by both - Jane's Addiction . . .
I'm going w/ VU. They were a jump off point. Zeppelin, like Aerosmith, GNR and White Stripes are more of an endpoint . . . taking the blues to another place . . . but not really having a long or strong lineage following it.
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Originally posted by Mobius:
As has been mentioned, Zeppelin's influence was broader, while VU influenced a select few with a big impact.
I would not agree with that statement at all.
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What don't you agree with? Everyone listened to Zeppelin. And how many people picked up a guitar or started a band between 1972 and 1991 and wanted to play Zeppelin? A kajillion? Who even heard of VU? I don't think any of the VU albums sold more than 10,000 copies when released. Zeppelin sold zillions. Only a few people were listening to VU, and not to repeat any cliches, they were influential.
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Mobius, props to you for an excellent, thoughtful post.
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Originally posted by Mobius:
What don't you agree with? Everyone listened to Zeppelin. And how many people picked up a guitar or started a band between 1972 and 1991 and wanted to play Zeppelin? A kajillion? Who even heard of VU? I don't think any of the VU albums sold more than 10,000 copies when released. Zeppelin sold zillions. Only a few people were listening to VU, and not to repeat any cliches, they were influential.
Sure, Zeppelin sold more records. There's no arguing that. But saying "everyone" listened to Zeppelin is a bit of an overstatement. Regardless.
You can't measure influence by album sales. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that the entire genre of indie rock would not exist (or would at least exist in a vastly different nature) had VU not been around. How many indie rockers have stepped up to a mike and said "I want to sing like Lou Reed?" Countless. The same goes for many, many other genres, including noise, post-rock, metal, hell, even pop music.
Simply because Zeppelin sold more records (and, based on your logic, had more fans) means nothing. VU's influence on the sound of music in the past three decades is incalculable. It's hard to say the say about Zeppelin.
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Originally posted by thingsfallapart:
Originally posted by Mobius:
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Sure, Zeppelin sold more records. There's no arguing that. But saying "everyone" listened to Zeppelin is a bit of an overstatement. [/b]
I've got to think that anyone who went to high school in the 70s and 80s will confirm that Led Zeppelin was the biggest band ever. Okay, not every single person listened to Zeppelin, but it is pretty fair to say that every rock fan got into Zeppelin at some point. And the amount of people who wished to sing like Lou Reed pales terribly in comparison to the amount of people who wished to sing like Robert Plant. And that's not even bringing in the amount of people who wanted to play like Jimmy Page. Or John Bonham. Or John Paul Jones.
Your average person thinks Lou Reed is a solo guy who did Walk on the Wild Side and couldn't even remotely name or sing a single VU song or name one of their albums or band members. But my grandmother knows Stairway to Heaven, and yours probably does to.
VU was a very innovative band, but Zep was much more influential. They may have cribbed from past sources, but just the sheer number of people who obsessed over the albums and played along with the songs and sang them into the mirror and formed bands is staggering.
I'm not at all saying Zep was the better band, just that you can't deny that probably a hundred million people worldwide over the last 35 years have been influenced directly by Zep's music.
And indie rock could still have happened without VU. The Beatles had already introduced experimentalism and feedback to rock.
Wow, I'm rambling.
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Originally posted by Relaxer:
Originally posted by thingsfallapart:
Originally posted by Mobius:
]
Sure, Zeppelin sold more records. There's no arguing that. But saying "everyone" listened to Zeppelin is a bit of an overstatement. [/b]
I've got to think that anyone who went to high school in the 70s and 80s will confirm that Led Zeppelin was the biggest band ever. Okay, not every single person listened to Zeppelin, but it is pretty fair to say that every rock fan got into Zeppelin at some point. And the amount of people who wished to sing like Lou Reed pales terribly in comparison to the amount of people who wished to sing like Robert Plant. And that's not even bringing in the amount of people who wanted to play like Jimmy Page. Or John Bonham. Or John Paul Jones.
Your average person thinks Lou Reed is a solo guy who did Walk on the Wild Side and couldn't even remotely name or sing a single VU song or name one of their albums or band members. But my grandmother knows Stairway to Heaven, and yours probably does to.
VU was a very innovative band, but Zep was much more influential. They may have cribbed from past sources, but just the sheer number of people who obsessed over the albums and played along with the songs and sang them into the mirror and formed bands is staggering.
I'm not at all saying Zep was the better band, just that you can't deny that probably a hundred million people worldwide over the last 35 years have been influenced directly by Zep's music.
And indie rock could still have happened without VU. The Beatles had already introduced experimentalism and feedback to rock.
Wow, I'm rambling. [/b]
I think maybe you're missing my point. Yes, I acknowledge that more people know of Zeppelin than VU. But that's not what I'm arguing. We are arguing who had the bigger influence on the shape of music--therefore it's irrelevant if our grandmothers know who Zep is, since they didn't play any part in the development of popular music. I'm arguing about influence regarding the sound of music--not influence in terms of sheer numbers.
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I think influence versus importance is a very relevant distinction.
Bowie has a great quote about the Velvet Underground. Something like, "only 1,000 people bought the first Velvet Underground record, but every single one of them became a musician." I think this keys into the importance of the Velvet Underground, but...
I think its impossible to ignore the fact that influence is directly related to the people impacted by the music. And Zeppelin, no matter how you slice it - and as it was mentioned previously - reached more people. Regardless of whether or not they were ripping off old blues songs, they got it to people that hadn't heard them before. The volume of people that heard those Led Zep. records, and went "wow, I need to know more about this" or "wow, I need to learn how to play the guitar," its impossible to estimate the influence that they had. But by simply reaching a larger audience, I think its likely that they had more influence on the music listening public.
If people have seen "Dig!" there is a great quote that Courtney Taylor or one of the Dandys makes about Anton Newcombe. He says something along the lines of "its impossible to start a music revolution if you remain underground." Certainly not to say that the Velvet Underground remained an unknown band, but I think that's a good point of reference here. Led Zeppelin flat out reached more people, and by virtue of that, I'd have to say that they were more influential. Yes, it is a volume issue, but that also translates into different sounds: look at grunge, modern rock, metal, and so forth were all influenced by Zeppelin in some big ways.
But more important is a different question altogether. Then you start factoring in the questions of originality - and that's where you probably have a stronger argument for the Velvet Underground.
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The point I was trying to make is that its not how many people you influence, its who you influence. As many people as listened to Zeppelin, as many musicians as listened to Zeppelin, how many great bands were influenced by them. I can't think of many.
How many were influenced by VU? VU, to the few people who heard them, seemed to inspire people to write songs on their own. Zeppelin seemed to inspire people to want to be Zeppelin.
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At this point I have to mention that a few years ago I was walking down P Streeet NW wearing my Velvet Underground t-shirt, you know the one with the bananna. This fat, unkempt guy looking a little bit like Michael Moore and walking with a beautiful Asian girlfriend was coming towards me. Suddenly he pointed at me and started yelling "NERD!!!," while his girlfriend tee-heed. It was quite a weird experience.
http://www.alex.to/blogs (http://www.alex.to/blogs)
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Originally posted by D O C T O R D O O O O O M:
At this point I have to mention that a few years ago I was walking down P Streeet NW wearing my Velvet Underground t-shirt, you know the one with the bananna. This fat, unkempt guy looking a little bit like Michael Moore and walking with a beautiful Asian girlfriend was coming towards me. Suddenly he pointed at me and started yelling "NERD!!!," while his girlfriend tee-heed. It was quite a weird experience.
http://www.alex.to/blogs (http://www.alex.to/blogs)
So did you prove him wrong and kick his ass or say something like "what the hell are you talking about you fat fuck with your mail order bride?", or did you just smile and walk away?
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Google Fight! (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Led+Zeppelin&word2=Velvet+Underground)
22,000,000 to 9,970,000. Zep wins.
RILM (http://www.rilm.org/) Music Abstracts search (a measure of who academics are writing about):
Led Zeppelin - 72
Velvet Underground - 39
Obviously, this in no way ends the argument but these numbers are indicative at some level.
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Alex, I know it's been years since this took place. But after all these years, I'd like to formally offer you an apology for my rude behavior.
P.S. My comment had nothing to do with your t-shirt.
Originally posted by D O C T O R D O O O O O M:
At this point I have to mention that a few years ago I was walking down P Streeet NW wearing my Velvet Underground t-shirt, you know the one with the bananna. This fat, unkempt guy looking a little bit like Michael Moore and walking with a beautiful Asian girlfriend was coming towards me. Suddenly he pointed at me and started yelling "NERD!!!," while his girlfriend tee-heed. It was quite a weird experience.
http://www.alex.to/blogs (http://www.alex.to/blogs)
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Think a little harder.
Originally posted by Mobius:
The point I was trying to make is that its not how many people you influence, its who you influence. As many people as listened to Zeppelin, as many musicians as listened to Zeppelin, how many great bands were influenced by them. I can't think of many.
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A VU t-shirt may get you called a nerd, but a Zeppelin sticker could get you pulled over by the fuzz (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29461).
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This is what I'm talking about people, good debate! <img src="http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/images/smilies/bananna2.gif" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
A VU t-shirt may get you called a nerd, but a Zeppelin sticker could get you pulled over by the fuzz (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29461).
That sounds like discrimination against Zeppelin fans, where are those two fags Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when you need them.
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i will put in my vote for Zeppelin.
but VU was very influential too :)
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Led Zeppelin, like The Beatles before them, caused many people to go get guitars, etc and form bands which has more impact than say being influential.
VU, also like the later day Beatles before them, caused many people to rethink how music was written and created which them influential than LedZep.
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Now class given the recent nod by Robert Plant for Arthur Lee and Love. Who is more influential Love or the Velvet Underground?
Extra Credit Question. Would Led Zeppelin been a better band with Terry Reed as it's singer and extra guitarist?
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
Led Zeppelin, like The Beatles before them, caused many people to go get guitars, etc and form bands which has more impact than say being influential.
<img src="http://www.metronews.ca/uploadedImages/0421_fg_article.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
Led Zeppelin, like The Beatles before them, caused many people to go get guitars, etc and form bands which has more impact than say being influential.
That's exactly what I was trying to say earlier.
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Rhett, that's kinda weird, calling me by my real name, don't do that again, mmkay?
Although it's funny, although I have no idea what you look like, I do kinda picture you looking like him. :D
Anyhoo, I did exactly what I would've done in junior high, when such occurrences were more common, I thought of the perfect comeback after it was already too late.
But to get back to the original point, I vote for VU. Led Zeppelin probably influenced more people to become metalheads, smoke pot, and wear rock concert t-shirts; but the VU influenced a lot of bands to head down different directions than they might have otherwise. And that impact is more lasting.
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Your name is in the link you posted to your website. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what your name is.
QUOTE]Originally posted by D O C T O R D O O O O O M:
Rhett, that's kinda weird, calling me by my real name, don't do that again, mmkay?
Although it's funny, although I have no idea what you look like, I do kinda picture you looking like him. :D
Anyhoo, I did exactly what I would've done in junior high, when such occurrences were more common, I thought of the perfect comeback after it was already too late.
But to get back to the original point, I vote for VU. Led Zeppelin probably influenced more people to become metalheads, smoke pot, and wear rock concert t-shirts; but the VU influenced a lot of bands to head down different directions than they might have otherwise. And that impact is more lasting. [/QUOTE]
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
That sounds like discrimination against Zeppelin fans, where are those two fags Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when you need them.
You do realize that article was satirical (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=satirical)?
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The answer is obvious to me: Velvets because they're the band any group of dudes in a garage could sound like. Not many kids could get anything like the Robert Plant vocal sound (not saying that's a bad thing that they couldn't) or the Bonzo bass-heavy drumming, so not nearly as many bands got close to the Zep sound
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The Velvet Underground playing for the American Society of Clinical Psychiatrists in NYC, 1966
(https://scontent-iad3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/273581663_5502578576436425_7874243770306526780_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=F0_qaxqhTpMAX8JyJB4&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-2.xx&oh=00_AT-4TWsnEkrsSpI_DtbEsZ7B46Xz8SlMRDT9IAkaBZaYZg&oe=62107848)
January 13, 1966, the first concert of the "Exploding Plastic Inevitable": band plus two dancers, and no light show yet.
It was a dinner. The guests didn't quite know what kind of 'entertainment' they were getting - and how could they have known? Candleabra, chandeliers, Louis VIII style ornamentation on the mirror, all made for a clear-cut, decorous culture clash.