930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: xcanuck on February 16, 2005, 04:14:00 pm
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For both the hockey fans out there...it's all over for this year.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNWZic251BF9TAzI1NjY0ODI1BHNlYwN0aA--?slug=ap-nhllockout&prov=ap&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNWZic251BF9TAzI1NjY0ODI1BHNlYwN0aA--?slug=ap-nhllockout&prov=ap&type=lgns)
I place the blame for this whole debacle squarely on Bettman's shoulders. His lack of leadership lead to a situation where rampant expansion and player salaries ran amok and resulted in the season cancellation. I only hope that this all results in league contraction (even if it means losing the Caps) so that we can have a viable product in a couple of years.
The man wouldn't know a hockey puck if it hit him. Too bad that 12 yr old girl in Columbus got hit....it should have been Bettman. He should just go back to the NBA where he belongs.
I guess I'll just up to play on a THIRD team for the summer. I've got to get my fix somehow.....
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I always blame it on the players because in any sport, they are way overpayed as it is.
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Originally posted by xcanuck:
I place the blame for this whole debacle squarely on Bettman's shoulders. His lack of leadership lead to a situation where rampant expansion and player salaries ran amok and resulted in the season cancellation. I only hope that this all results in league contraction (even if it means losing the Caps) so that we can have a viable product in a couple of years.
Well said. All of the mid-sized American cities throwing money at the NHL didn't help either. Once the US TV deal (ABC/ESPN) was up and hockey was too outstretched to have a solid fan base in the US, the league was doomed. I feel badly for the Canadians (and I'm not talking about the Hockey team), although I'm sure fans in Quebec and Winnpeg are having the last laugh now.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I always blame it on the players because in any sport, they are way overpayed as it is.
Exactly. Because the owners could always use a little more cash. They're nearly broke.
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this was easily the least disappointing caps season ever.
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That is true. But after they retire after like 4.2 seasons and a few million earned (and spent), they have to take on stupid jobs like selling dope, playing in has-been charity golf tournaments, being assistant coaches of Pop Warner teams, running their foundations, and owning KFC franchises. Give these gentlemen a break, because their glory years really are small in number.
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I always blame it on the players because in any sport, they are way overpayed as it is.
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Two separate studies found that most NHL teams were in the red. Probably because of overpaid players, but perhaps also from snot nosed law students sneaking into games without paying. ;)
http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/8-1-04cba.htm (http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/8-1-04cba.htm)
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I always blame it on the players because in any sport, they are way overpayed as it is.
Exactly. Because the owners could always use a little more cash. They're nearly broke. [/b]
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I feel like I've been punched in the gut and kicked in the face.
I dont want to pick sides, or point fingers or lay blame...everyone else can do that.
In Canada, hockey is the bond that gives us an identity and a common bond from Vancouver to Nova Scotia (even Newfoundland i suppose).
In America, hockey is a sport loved by some, not cared a dime about by the rest, but when you have something like that, its more special to those that like it.
If this happened in Baseball or the NFL it would piss of an entire nation, but when it happens in hockey, a small part of the majority lost a large part of thier lives......
Lets all hope they'll find an agreement for next season, and that Barry Melrose doesn't take a header off the Peace Bridge, cause he looked today , like he wanted to.
(and yes, i know baseball almost had replacement players once too)
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Originally posted by Sam Pulsize:
That is true. But after they retire after like 4.2 seasons and a few million earned (and spent), they have to take on stupid jobs like selling dope, playing in has-been charity golf tournaments, being assistant coaches of Pop Warner teams, running their foundations, and owning KFC franchises. Give these gentlemen a break, because their glory years really are small in number.
rhett, i know you like to comment on everything, regardless how ignorant you are on a topic, but really....you could think of nothing better to type?
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
and that Barry Melrose doesn't take a header off the Peace Bridge, cause he looked today , like he wanted to.
but how was his hair?
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Well I actually started with the line:
I feel like I've been punched in the gut and kicked in the face.
...but I decided to leave the Hollywood blockbuster quality scriptwriting to others...
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Sam Pulsize:
That is true. But after they retire after like 4.2 seasons and a few million earned (and spent), they have to take on stupid jobs like selling dope, playing in has-been charity golf tournaments, being assistant coaches of Pop Warner teams, running their foundations, and owning KFC franchises. Give these gentlemen a break, because their glory years really are small in number.
rhett, i know you like to comment on everything, regardless how ignorant you are on a topic, but really....you could think of nothing better to type? [/b]
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
and that Barry Melrose doesn't take a header off the Peace Bridge, cause he looked today , like he wanted to.
but how was his hair? [/b]
you would think he would have left it a little desheveled for effect, but no, his hair was miraculous!
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
and that Barry Melrose doesn't take a header off the Peace Bridge, cause he looked today , like he wanted to.
but how was his hair? [/b]
you would think he would have left it a little desheveled for effect, but no, his hair was miraculous! [/b]
so, he still has the mullet. . .excellent.
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I think this could end up being a good lesson to all sports leagues. But hockey was especially out of control. I don't care how many snow birds move south- there is no reason why Florida, Georgia, and the Carolinas had more teams then New England and the Great Lakes; or the providence of Quebec for that matter.
I really feel bad for cities like Buffalo were a number of small businesses will probably fold due to this strike.
If you care check out www.hockeyribbon.com (http://www.hockeyribbon.com)
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I echo this.
contraction is the way to go here. and while its not like that will solve TOO much, it will solve the problem that because Nashville and Carolina are losing SO much money it makes it look like everyone's doing bad, when teams like Boston, Toronto and Colorado are making money.
I will take out 6 teams, no problem, but can i pick those 6? probably not. nashville, florida, carolina, phoenix, dallas and tampa bay will do.
but will that really solve the problem?
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didn't tampa bay win the most recent stanley cup? and i thought dallas has always been pretty supportive, as crazy as that seems.
honestly, they should get rid of the caps. it pains me to say it, and i would feel like a great part of my childhood would have been wasted, but this town clearly doesn't give a shit about the team. every time the devils, flyers, rangers, penguins, basically any east coast team comes to town, there are more of their fans than caps fans.
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Originally posted by BookerT:
didn't tampa bay win the most recent stanley cup? and i thought dallas has always been pretty supportive, as crazy as that seems.
yeah, dallas fans are fairly supportive of the stars.
i'd say contract florida, tampa, atlanta, nashville, phoenix (or send em back to winnipeg) and probably carolina (unless there's a canadian city that would take them). i'm reluctant to contract phoenix and carolina outright simply because of the history of the franchises, the old jets and whalers. same with the caps.
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dallas and tampa bay can be contracted. just cause they are good, does not mean they are making money and helping the league.
screw em. and neither have any real history. sure the Stars were Minnesota , but i bet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone from Minnesota to care if Dallas lost its team!
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<img src="http://www.sptimes.com/Lightning/graphics/number1-04.jpg" alt=" - " />
as an enormous lightning fan (attended to the first game ever, the '97 playoff mini-run against the flyers, and rabidly followed the season last year from DC), this is really tough.
i agree that the league is way overextended, they never should have moved into places like Tampa, S. Fla, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc, etc ... i think in an ideal world many of the southern teams would be contracted ... but as a lightning fan, i can't personally advocate it, i just see how it makes complete sense in the broader picture
positive: we have the cup for another year, right?
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I think this picture proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are at least two gay hockey fans in Tampa. Not that there's anything wrong with it.
Originally posted by HoyaSaxa03:
<img src="http://www.sptimes.com/Lightning/graphics/number1-04.jpg" alt=" - " />
as an enormous lightning fan (attended to the first game ever, the '97 playoff mini-run against the flyers, and rabidly followed the season last year from DC), this is really tough.
i agree that the league is way overextended, they never should have moved into places like Tampa, S. Fla, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc, etc ... i think in an ideal world many of the southern teams would be contracted ... but as a lightning fan, i can't personally advocate it, i just see how it makes complete sense in the broader picture
positive: we have the cup for another year, right?
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Originally posted by Sam Pulsize:
I think this picture proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are at least two gay hockey fans in Tampa. Not that there's anything wrong with it.
these two young homos were actually in philadelphia, hence the mocking of the flyers' logo ...
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Originally posted by HoyaSaxa03:
Originally posted by Sam Pulsize:
I think this picture proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are at least two gay hockey fans in Tampa. Not that there's anything wrong with it.
these two young homos were actually in philadelphia, hence the mocking of the flyers' logo ... [/b]
Tough guys - be a little more PC please?
<img src="http://www.everyschool.org/u/hillbrook/kyled/slapshot226x326%5b1%5d.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by Sam Pulsize:
Two separate studies found that most NHL teams were in the red. Probably because of overpaid players, but perhaps also from snot nosed law students sneaking into games without paying. ;)
Haha, well done!
They should have worked out better concession deals, because I never stole a beer or a hot dog. Oh wait, I definitely had a lot of free beers from the suites. Somebody pays for those, right? And, how much did they make on my jerseys?
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
I will take out 6 teams, no problem, but can i pick those 6? probably not. nashville, florida, carolina, phoenix, dallas and tampa bay will do.
but will that really solve the problem?
My six teams to contract would be Florida, Carolina, Phoenix, Tampa, Washington, and Anaheim. I wouldn't take out Dallas because their fan base is reasonably large enough and I wouldn't take out Phoenix because I couldn't see Gretkzy letting it happen.
Contraction will HELP but not solve the league's problems, especially if they implement revenue sharing. Reasons being:
1. fewer teams on welfare (revenue sharing)
2. fewer players in the league so the lower tier players won't have jobs. The good part about this is that those are the guys that are doing alot of the obstruction that's slowing down the game. So the overall talent level goes up and so does the quality of the on ice product.
3. fewer games played in cities with low attendance (which translates to more tickets sold overall). This means higher revenue on average per team left in the league.
4. lower travel expenses
5. Detroit FINALLY gets to play in the eastern conference. More Leafs vs Wings games!!
6. Gary Bettman will get fired as a result of contraction
All these are pluses in my books :=)
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I still believe that the best way to solve the league's financial woes is to allow fights-- and lots of them. that would be a far bigger draw for the sport. i might even go.
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Originally posted by xcanuck:
My six teams to contract would be Florida, Carolina, Phoenix, Tampa, Washington, and Anaheim. I wouldn't take out Dallas because their fan base is reasonably large enough and I wouldn't take out Phoenix because I couldn't see Gretkzy letting it happen.
Contraction will HELP but not solve the league's problems, especially if they implement revenue sharing. Reasons being:
1. fewer teams on welfare (revenue sharing)
2. fewer players in the league so the lower tier players won't have jobs. The good part about this is that those are the guys that are doing alot of the obstruction that's slowing down the game. So the overall talent level goes up and so does the quality of the on ice product.
3. fewer games played in cities with low attendance (which translates to more tickets sold overall). This means higher revenue on average per team left in the league.
4. lower travel expenses
5. Detroit FINALLY gets to play in the eastern conference. More Leafs vs Wings games!!
6. Gary Bettman will get fired as a result of contraction
All these are pluses in my books :=)
nice. can you send that proposal to Daly?
number 6 is the best!!! and dont take the Capitals away til i move out of the DC area. while i dont think DC should have a team....how else would i get to see 40 games a year!!!!
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Originally posted by xcanuck:
My six teams to contract would be Florida, Carolina, Phoenix, Tampa, Washington, and Anaheim.
Just to play the part of Devil's Advocate here, but you've listed three teams that have made the Finals in the last three years despite hockey's problems.
Why not contract Pittsburgh? How many times are the people of Pittsburgh going to vote down a new arena? They were so broke they had to give part of the team to their best player because they coudln't pay him. And things aren't getting better.
And what of Ottowa and Buffalo? They're both already bankrupt, why save them?
Nashville and Columbus?
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Originally posted by vansmack:
And what of Ottowa and Buffalo?
you shut the hell up about Ottawa.
i think part of Ottawa and Buffalo's problem is that increasing salaries by the league drive ticket prices up and make it hard for lower income cities to get fans in.
Also, lets not look at contraction on team record, lets look at attendance and really lets look at genuine fan support. when Tampa and Carolina were doing bad they had NO attendance, and only got good attendance when they were having thier good years. Calgary, for example, has sold out every game for like 3 years and STILL lose money. and they were only good last year. Ottawa would have support regardless of record....Nashville wouldnt. and theres not even any ice in Nashville. screw em.
Columbus should have a team though.
and besides, Ottawa shouldnt be contracted just cause Americans can't spell it!
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Using your logic Sonick, I think every team in that list would survive if they implemented a Salary Cap and Revenue Sharing - the only thing that would save teams like Ottowa and Buffalo.
I guess my overall point is that hockey can't survive as a dual-nation sport without a strong TV deal in the US. And contracting 6 US teams in new markets (some of the largest TV markets in America) does not help your US TV deal.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by vansmack:
[qb] and besides, Ottawa shouldnt be contracted just cause Americans can't spell it! [/b]
Thank you. I was going to keep doing it until you corrected me. Just looking to get a rise....
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Originally posted by vansmack:
I guess my overall point is that hockey can't survive as a dual-nation sport without a strong TV deal in the US. And contracting 6 US teams in new markets (some of the largest TV markets in America) does not help your US TV deal.
so you wanna contract all of the Canadian teams? yeah, that will work
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honestly, if its all just about cities with money and TV deals...just give the cup to Canada and let them have thier own hockey league.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
so you wanna contract all of the Canadian teams? yeah, that will work
I didn't say that and I think it's the worst possible idea. I'm not even sure how you came to that conclusion.
But for the tradition rich folks in Canada who want to go back to the old way hockey used to be done, they're not thinking clearly. There's more to revenue then ticket sales - a lot more. And you can't just contract teams because of poor ticket sales. Contraction is a quick fix - and if you want a quick fix, why not dump the teams that are already BQ? That was my point.
The truth is, Hockey needs to have teams in largly populated areas in the US for a larger TV deal - how do you think the original ABC/ESPN kept this lockout from happening years ago? Expansion. But it was inevitable. Until a deal is in place where salaries are capped and revenue is shared, this will happen to hockey everytime the CBA is up.
Hockey has all the love in Canada, but all the money in the US. That's why there are no NFL teams in Canada. And only one baseball team left in Canada. And because I don't watch the NBA until May, I'm not sure how many NBA teams are left in Canada, but at last count it was one. When all the love and all the money is in the US, Canadian franchises can't compete. It's your love that keeps hockey competitive in a dual country league. It may also be your downfall.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
honestly, if its all just about cities with money and TV deals...just give the cup to Canada and let them have thier own hockey league.
How many players would play in Canada if they could be paid twice as much to play in the US?
The NHL needs a salary cap and revenue sharing. It's the only fix to save the league on a permanent basis.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
How many players would play in Canada if they could be paid twice as much to play in the US?
where, in the AHL. do they even have a TV deal with ANYONE?
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Originally posted by vansmack:
How many players would play in Canada if they could be paid twice as much to play in the US?
and i really think Ottawa's being bankrupt had more to do with shitty ownership than anything else. i dont know about Buffalo.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
where, in the AHL. do they even have a TV deal with ANYONE?
Do you think that if the NHL were to split and the cup be given to Canada as you suggested, that the US franchises would disband? They would create their own Professional Hockey League. And with more revenue, be able to pay their players a lot more than Canada.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
where, in the AHL. do they even have a TV deal with ANYONE?
Do you think that if the NHL were to split and the cup be given to Canada as you suggested, that the US franchises would disband? They would create their own Professional Hockey League. And with more revenue, be able to pay their players a lot more than Canada. [/b]
I didnt say they would, i said they should. and a "new" hockey league with only american teams wouldnt work. not paying millions of dollars anyway. without tradition, hockey is nothing in American......seriously.
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Originally posted by xcanuck:
For both the hockey fans out there...it's all over for this year.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNWZic251BF9TAzI1NjY0ODI1BHNlYwN0aA--?slug=ap-nhllockout&prov=ap&type=lgns (http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNWZic251BF9TAzI1NjY0ODI1BHNlYwN0aA--?slug=ap-nhllockout&prov=ap&type=lgns)
I place the blame for this whole debacle squarely on Bettman's shoulders. His lack of leadership lead to a situation where rampant expansion and player salaries ran amok and resulted in the season cancellation. I only hope that this all results in league contraction (even if it means losing the Caps) so that we can have a viable product in a couple of years.
The man wouldn't know a hockey puck if it hit him. Too bad that 12 yr old girl in Columbus got hit....it should have been Bettman. He should just go back to the NBA where he belongs.
I guess I'll just up to play on a THIRD team for the summer. I've got to get my fix somehow.....
<img src="http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/09/01/bhagwan_shree_rajnesh_narrowweb__200x230.jpg" alt=" - " />
And who is giving a rat's posterior, I am wondering?
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
without tradition, hockey is nothing in American......seriously.
I think you mean without Canadian Players, an American Pro Hockey League would be nothing, because America doesn't need your tradition. How long are you going to hold on to this "tradition"?
The first Pro Hockey League was in the US, not Canada.
Only two Canadian teams have won a Stanley Cup in the last 15 years.
Only four teams have played for one.
There are only, what 6 Canadian Teams left, out of 30 teams total? And yet the NHL continued until this year.
Yes, the majority of the hockey players in the NHL are Canadian, but your 6 pro teams can't keep them all and when the US teams pay the players more, which they inevitably will, it will take an act of the Canadian Government to keep the Canadian hockey players from making more money in the US.
I can't even believe your suggesting this.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Why not contract Pittsburgh? How many times are the people of Pittsburgh going to vote down a new arena? They were so broke they had to give part of the team to their best player because they coudln't pay him. And things aren't getting better.
i am a pixburgher born and raised, i've been to 100 pens games, the stanley cup years were during my high school days, and i literally went to pens games in the womb, and i can tell you if they contract 6 teams, there is a 20% chance that pittsburgh WON'T be one of them. the city is absolutely broke, they laid off a thousand city employees last year, including over a hundred cops. the last ditch effort is to get a gambling licence for the pens so they can have slots which is a short term solution at best. so yeah, i'm thinking no pens ever again. rot in hell nhl, go wiz
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Originally posted by vansmack:
I can't even believe your suggesting this.
nice set of stats there smackie. and yes, i am suggesting this. i dare you clowns to try to have hockey without Canadian teams.
what will you win at the end of the year? a giant hockey puck? a new cadillac? maybe a trophy with some flags on it? haha, how nice.
it wont work. the cup is Canadian and not enough hockey fans here will watch a bunch of guys skating for something else. you do watch hockey right?
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Originally posted by vansmack:
The first Pro Hockey League was in the US, not Canada.
so what? Canada had hockey leagues long before America did. just cause they didnt get paid means they dont count?
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
i dare you clowns to try to have hockey without Canadian teams.
I double dog-dare you to have a Canadian only hockey league without American teams and try to compete with an American Pro Hockey League.
And yes, I watch hockey. And yes, Bettman is to blame. But I maintain that to contract American teams based on ticket sales and performance will do nothing to save hockey in Canada or America.
The players have to make less (salary cap) and the owners in bigger markets have to make less (revenue sharing) and hockey needs to increase its fan base. America is the only place to do that.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
i dare you clowns to try to have hockey without Canadian teams.
I double dog-dare you to have a Canadian only hockey league without American teams and try to compete with an American Pro Hockey League.
And yes, I watch hockey. And yes, Bettman is to blame. But I maintain that to contract American teams based on ticket sales and performance will do nothing to save hockey in Canada or America.
The players have to make less (salary cap) and the owners in bigger markets have to make less (revenue sharing) and hockey needs to increase its fan base. America is the only place to do that. [/b]
ok, ok. yes, we need a salary cap. and while i dont thin contraction is a must for fixing the league, but i sure would like it. and i think thats really how this conversation started, i dont know that any of us (me and xcanuck) were really arguing which teams "deserved" to be ousted, more our personal preferences. but i can see how a lawyer may misinterpret.
nice talking with you again though, smackie!
at least baseballs 45 days away!
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
and i think thats really how this conversation started, i dont know that any of us (me and xcanuck) were really arguing which teams "deserved" to be ousted, more our personal preferences. but i can see how a lawyer may misinterpret.
I was wearing my fan hat in this conversation, not my lawyer hat. Few folks in America are supporting contraction. I worked my ass off to get a team to Anaheim and there's no way I'm letting the Ducks go down without a fight when there are other teams that haven't performed as well and are in worse financial shape then Anaheim. There has been over a 500% increase in kids in Orange County playing hockey since we were granted a franchise, which sure beats what I (and my parents) had to go through to play hockey in Orange County back in the 80's.
And yes, always fun to chat with you. Pitchers and catchers have reported.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
ok, ok. yes, we need a salary cap. and while i dont thin contraction is a must for fixing the league, but i sure would like it.
Man...what a kettle of fish.
I think the league has to realize that it's only viable, long term fan base is in Canada, the US northeast, midwest, and (possibly) northwest. Hockey is a regional game and we have to accept that. Contraction is part of that acceptance.
I already outlined why I think contraction is a good thing and it has little to do with the nationality of the cities or their players. The cities I chose were based on what I perceived to be their ability to have a longterm fanbase.
With revenue sharing, a salary cap (or luxury tax), and a smarter business model, I think the NHL can flourish in it's niche markets. Ottawa and Boston were anomolies, due largely to poor ownership (I mean, the Rigas' went to jail for their activities!).
I do kinda wish for old-time hockey - which means bringing back the touchup offsides, smaller goalie equipment, and getting rid of the instigator penalty. But I think things like no touch icing and wider blue lines will also enhance the game.
Anyhow, the pundits are screaming for Bettman's head, the players are stunned by the way Goodenow caved (months too late), and the fans honestly couldn't care less. There's great hockey to be found - you just have to look around the dial to find it.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
.
And yes, always fun to chat with you. Pitchers and catchers have reported.
By the way, which of you is the pitcher and which is the catcher?
Sorry - couldn't resist that one. :)
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Originally posted by xcanuck:
I think the league has to realize that it's only viable, long term fan base is in Canada, the US northeast, midwest, and (possibly) northwest. Hockey is a regional game and we have to accept that. Contraction is part of that acceptance.
thanks for explaining it better than i could apparently.
I think what some of us, especially some of us Canadians, is .... Whats wrong with an 18-24 team league, playing in front of 8000 people, not 20,000 and getting your ASS out to the rink to see the game. well, i guess that cant happen anymore, but i think what we're saying is, maybe some people WANT to downsize the game a touch.
who cares if they arent making $10 million a year, who cares if its not on ESPN or Fox every night, who cares if i cant go to the new state of the art sports arena to watch em play.
i would rather stand outside with a tuke and a few nips of whisky and watch a pond match than have what the NHL is now...which is NADA.
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``When I first heard about it,'' said Pat Williams, general manager of the NBA's Orlando Magic at the time, ``I sent the guy a puck. And I heard he spent all day at his desk trying to figure out how to open it up.''
thats my favorite quote about bettman. makes me laugh everytime i read it. of course, when asked about when he last saw a hockey game, he had to think for a bit, before declaring you know im just too busy, but i did make it to The BeanPot, if i recall correctly. oh i cant stand the guy. ill just be sad if chelly retires and i never get to watch him again..
i say just get rid of a few teams. theres a great article by someone at the san jose mercury suggesting we have games that eliminate teams for good. now that'd be one way to get rid of some teams. for starters just yank the panthers and a bunch of other teams in the south, send a few north of the border where theres more fans that want to watch. and get rid of the caps while we're at it. noone comes out to support them and you end up seeing more fans for the other team. then again, i got to see patrick roy becoming the winningest goaltender in history so im damn happy about that! :D
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on paper, the Phoenixes and Atlantas and Tampas look real good. big cities, large TV markets, people with money to go to games, buy luxury boxes and merchandise, but when it comes down to it, most dont care. Tampa and Atlanta will go on like nothing ever happened if the NHL disbanded, oreven if they lost thier team. but take away the Bruins, Leafs or the Red Wings, and there will be hell to pay.
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heres a good article, written by one of Canada's finest journalists, for ESPN.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=johnson_george&id=1993718 (http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=johnson_george&id=1993718)
By George Johnson
Special to ESPN.com
Gary Bettman climbed up on his soapbox Wednesday at the swanky Westin Times Square hotel and finally delivered the eulogy for the hockey season that never was.
No hankies were required.
Americans, or at least the relatively small portion that cared to begin with, long ago tuned out of the murky morass of caps and triggers and taxes and linkage that passed for "negotiations" between the NHL and its players.
Why, only Monday night, while reading off the day's national newspaper headlines, the dour, redoubtable Aaron Brown of CNN made passing mention of the impending season cancellation. And, predictably, he followed that up with a joke.
You wouldn't catch Lloyd Robertson of the CBC National News pulling a stunt like that.
In Canada, the lockout has been no laughing matter.
Canada, as everyone knows, has historically turned out broken-nosed, gap-toothed, spit-in-your-face ice gladiators (a disproportionate amount of them hailing from Viking, Alberta), the way Italy turns out tenors, Greece turns out ouzo or Holland turns out tulips. Outside of maple syrup, Neil Young, curling's inturn draw or self-conscious capitulation, they are our greatest gift to the international community.
Hockey is for us what baseball is to Americans. A sense of identity. A sense of community. A sense of history. A sense of superiority.
But even Canadians have grown fed up with the rhetoric and backbiting and posturing.
After Bettman sounded the death knell Wednesday, no rabid mob was reported marching on General Motors Place brandishing pitchforks and torches in search of random violence. The Toronto Stock Exchange did not suspend trading. No kids playing street hockey in Montreal were spotted ripping off their Saku Koivu sweaters to start an impromptu bonfire. The politicos on Ottawa's Parliament Hill weren't advocating back-to-work legislation.
Outside the Olympic Saddledome in Calgary, a protester, outfitted in a silver tinfoil Stanley Cup suit and wearing a sign that read: 1919: Flu Epidemic/2005: Greed, was the lone visible voice of dissent before the Flames held a season-ending news conference to give their side of the story.
And this, in a town that only 10 months ago reveled in a New Orleans-style Mardi Gras every night Darryl Sutter's improbable gang of castoffs and overachievers won another victory for the prohibitive underdog in all of us.
The Red Mile is now the Dead Mile.
But we got through the worst of it. Forced to go cold turkey, we coped.
We Canadians might not have a Super Bowl or a Shaq-Kobe feud or the BALCO scandal to distract our attention from the loss of hockey, but, hey, our lives aren't that empty.
"We have to earn back the love and affection of our fans,'' said Bettman on Wednesday, repressing the urge to dab a hankie at moist eyes, during his cancellation address. Nowhere moreso than north of the border.
Anger and a keen feeling of deprivation long ago gave way to a profound sense of disillusionment. Of inevitability. Of, even worse, disinterest.
Yes, even in Canada.
And that growing sense of stoic resignation is what should worry all the major players -- owners, players, commissioners and executive directors -- still stuck in this impasse. Because if Canada, the cradle of the game, is good and fed up with the whole stupid mess, you've got serious fence-mending problems on your hands.
Add to that the fact that erring on the side of caution is a national trait and the majority of support falls squarely with ownership -- particularly when the problems inherent with a tilted playing surface directly affect the feasibility of at least four of the six remaining franchises in the country.
We've watched Quebec and Winnipeg fly south and decided that's enough.
Maybe our lack of sophistication in such matters is showing, but in Canada, we see a group of super-rich owners squabbling with nouveau-riche players over how to split up a $2 billion business and we shake our heads (The Canadian Press reported the median yearly national income in 2002 as $24,300. Using the last NHL offer of a $42.5 million salary cap, the New York Rangers could sign 1,748 average Canadians for next season).
In Canada, we hear the union rank and file talk about principle, then watch hundreds of them troop over to Europe to take the jobs of guys earning chump change by comparison. We can't figure out what gives with players who had remained so defiant in their opposition to a salary cap for their own league, then started trickling over to the United Hockey League, a loop that already has a cap (principle is a sacred thing, apparently, but only when it suits your purposes).
In Canada, we think the players are as untroubled by reality as, say, Michael Jackson. Guys from Moose Jaw and Penticton and Antigonish who live in their own Neverland, a fantasy world of wealth, fame, privilege and entitlement.
In Canada, we read that Steve Avery has gone all militant and we wonder who the hell Steve Avery is. Or we hear about old warhorses such as Chris Chelios dissing a league that has made them wealthy beyond their wildest dreams and can't believe the gall.
In Canada, we understand that the two sides are $6.5 million-a-year apart on a salary cap that could save the season and scratch our heads when both of them can't reach a compromise.
Wednesday's announcement, then, spiced up by the last-minute letter bombs exchanged between Bettman and Goodenow, almost came as a relief. At least we weren't compelled by a sense of duty to care. At least not until fall.
No more Drop-Dead Date evasions and fairy-tale hoping. No more Daly and Saskin, the lowbrow Abbott and Costello of legal haggling. No more of Bettman's silky answers or Goodenow's furrowed brow. And, we hope, no more Canadian TV sports channel roundtable discussions dissecting for hours on end a round of negotiations that produced absolutely nothing new.
The general sense you get from Canadians is: When the players and owners want to act like adults, settle this tiff and get back to work, let us know.
We'll be back to watch.
But, as much as you might be disappointed, we're not going to work ourselves into a seizure waiting for it to happen.
George Johnson of
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Anyone who didn't see this coming is blind, stupid or both!!
Let's face it, once the teams started moving out of the place that is the heart and soul of the sport (Canada) it was only a matter of time.
Maybe I'm simplifying it too much but it's seems quite obvious why it failed.
The NHL was too eager to expand the teams to areas that had no right (or interest) in being home to a team.
The players saw how much athletes from other sports were making and wanted a piece of that action.....problem is, that is unfair to the owners because the revenue just isn't there. If they wanted that income they should've grabbed a baseball bat instead of skates when they were kids.
Certain teams*coughs* rangers *coughs* paid players waaaaaaaaaaay to much which just brought the average wage up to a level that the vast majority of teams could not afford.
The sport is not really a corporate sport...it's a good old working class sport and therefore as ticket prices started to increase the true fans (me included) became priced out.
Hockey is not a good tv sport, plain and simple. They were never going to get the tv audience to generate any kind of revenue from that source.
The media played their part in killing the sport by reporting only the negative side of the game, and only reporting the headline stories like some bully whacking someone over the head with his stick, which can only be detrimental to the game. For example....a bench clearing brawl in baseball, which is nothing more than a hug-fest really, was always the fun part of the sports report. Basketball players look funny fighting with their gangly bodieys flailing around like a theatrical, expressive artsy-fartsy dance troop, so that was always reported with a light-hearted attitude. Runny-catchy players can't possibly do injury with all the friggin armour they wear so just end up being pushy-pushy contests. Hockey players actually land punches so that was reported in a totally different way. Wether or not anyone agrees with fighting in sports is irrelevant, the fact remains fighting happens in all sports and hockey was punished because they are better fighters.....again very unfair.
Most sportscasters are completely ignorant of the sport so the reporting was just awful, not the best way to promote the sport to the casual sports fan.
People found it very annoying when hockey players were interviewed and every other word was "eh" ;)
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Originally posted by O'Mankie:
The NHL was too eager to expand the teams to areas that had no right (or interest) in being home to a team.
---snip snip---
The sport is not really a corporate sport...it's a good old working class sport and therefore as ticket prices started to increase the true fans (me included) became priced out.
---snip snip---
Hockey is not a good tv sport, plain and simple. They were never going to get the tv audience to generate any kind of revenue from that source.
---snip snip---
Most sportscasters are completely ignorant of the sport so the reporting was just awful, not the best way to promote the sport to the casual sports fan.
---snip snip---
People found it very annoying when hockey players were interviewed and every other word was "eh" :)
Excuse me...I'm off to have a cup of Tim Horton's and a dutchie.
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<img src="http://www.schillmania.com/photos/35mm/image/collection/miscellaneous/IMGP2922.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Are those the two blokes who invented Southpark?
Back to topic....interestingly enough, this was in the Irish Examiner this morning.
The richest sports clubs in the world. (£m)
Manchester United 171.5
New York Yankees 167.2
Real Madrid 156.3
AC Milan 147.2
Chelski 143.7
Juventus 142.4
Washington Redskins 130.0
Arseholes 115.0
Barcelona 112.0
Inter Milan 110.3
Bayern Munich 110.1
Liverscum 92.3
LA Lakers 90.2
NY Rangers 62.6
Two comments.
1. How can hockey players even begin to expect the same salaries as athletes from other sports, when the biggest club in Hockey....Rangers, are absolute minnows in comparison
2. Remind me again which is the biggest sport in the world????? :D
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It also doesn't help when the US hockey commentatories pale in comparsion to the CBC announcers. Bob Cole, Harry Neil, Don "The Coach" Cherry, Ron MacLean and Satellite Hotstove were the way to watch Hockey and spend a Saturday Night. I was spoiled in Detroit because the also had top notch announcers. Outside of Canada, Detroit and probably NYC, any ex-hockey player who can string two sentances together can get hired as a color guy.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
a color guy.
you mean him?
<img src="http://www.tvtome.com/images/people/148/2/3-32624-sm.jpg" alt=" - " />
i want Gary Thorne to shoot himself in the face. i like Steve Levy though. Melrose and Clement arent annoying either......no one compares to Don Cherry though!
the boston announcers Gord Kluzak and Dale somebody are ok. that guy that does the Caps game....makes me want to watch the NBA!!! GASP!
other than that,
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Originally posted by O'Mankie:
2. Remind me again which is the biggest sport in the world????? :D
didnt you know that America is taking over the world, freeing the opressed citizens, teaching them democracy and giving them baseball gloves!
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
i want Gary Thorne to shoot himself in the face. i like Steve Levy though. Melrose and Clement arent annoying either......no one compares to Don Cherry though!
the boston announcers Gord Kluzak and Dale somebody are ok. that guy that does the Caps game....makes me want to watch the NBA!!! GASP!
other than that,
Melrose is certainly no Don Cherry which I'm sure is what he wants to be... Gary Thorne also does baseball which is all you really need to know.
Never liked the Caps when I moved here and their commentatories really sealed their fate of me ever even watching them on tv.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
Gary Thorne also does baseball which is all you really need to know.
and he's terrible at that too.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
It also doesn't help when the US hockey commentatories pale in comparsion to the CBC announcers. Bob Cole, Harry Neil, Don "The Coach" Cherry, Ron MacLean and Satellite Hotstove were the way to watch Hockey and spend a Saturday Night. I was spoiled in Detroit because the also had top notch announcers. Outside of Canada, Detroit and probably NYC, any ex-hockey player who can string two sentances together can get hired as a color guy.
mike lange in pittsburgh is such a good play-by-play guy, he can make anyone look good. eddie o was decent before they got him to coach the team
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
It also doesn't help when the US hockey commentatories pale in comparsion to the CBC announcers. Bob Cole, Harry Neil, Don "The Coach" Cherry, Ron MacLean and Satellite Hotstove were the way to watch Hockey and spend a Saturday Night. I was spoiled in Detroit because the also had top notch announcers. Outside of Canada, Detroit and probably NYC, any ex-hockey player who can string two sentances together can get hired as a color guy.
To ESPN2's credit, they have gotten some colour guys who really know the sport. I've enjoyed listening to Darren Pang, John Davidson, and Ray "Chicken Parm" Ferraro. Yeah, Melrose is trying to be a (less confrontationa) Cherry but he's still funny. He has his mullet and Grapes has his suits. But I've never been happy with the play-byplay guys.
Which is why I'm so happy that NHL Centre Ice has (had) CBC, TSN, and Rogers broadcasts for virtually all the games with Canadian teams. Satellite Hotstove and Coach's Corner were sweet.
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no your right espn does have good color guys, and having not watched much hockey in a good while, i had forgetten about panger, etc. my comment maybe be more specfically directed at the local coverage, and it's possible that the capitols guys are just the bottom of the barrel. watching hockey just isn't a priority anymore, kosmette's not a fan at all and i've really lost touch with the sport. i just knew that HNIC was what everything should be compared to... i even remember seeing the french equivalent of don cherry in action once, for some reason a game was blacked out in detroit and the only way to see it was on the lower powered french cbc station fuzzy picture and all.
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Originally posted by xcanuck:
NHL Centre Ice
mans greatest invention
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is it over? or is it not over!!!!!!
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espn.com seems to be leaning toward not over at this moment
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Looks like Anaheim avoids contraction. There's no way the league approves this if they were about to contract the team:
Disney Sells the Ducks to Philanthropist
Friday, February 25, 2005
Disney created team in 1992
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Associated Press
ANAHEIM, Calif. -- The Walt Disney Co. agreed to sell the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim to billionaire Henry Samueli and his wife Susan.
The deal, announced Friday by Samueli, is subject to approval by the NHL. Samueli's company operates the Arrowhead Pond, where the Mighty Ducks play.
The 2004-5 season was canceled by a management lockout.
"The Mighty Ducks have become a wonderful asset to this community, with a terrific following, a history of winning and a strong nucleus of outstanding young prospects and talented veterans,'' Samueli said. "Our acquisition of the team assures that the Mighty Ducks will remain in the hands of local ownership committed to keeping the team in Orange County and putting a consistent winner on the ice.''
Disney paid $50 million for the Ducks to join the NHL as an expansion franchise in 1992. Samueli's initial offer reportedly was in the $50 million to $60 million range.
Although the Ducks were Western Conference champions and went to the Stanley Cup finals during the 2002-2003 season, Disney has had them on the market for years.
"We are confident that Henry and Susan Samueli will bring continued success to the Ducks and we will remain among the biggest fans of the team going forward,'' Disney chief executive Michael Eisner said.
Samueli is co-founder, chairman of the board and chief technical officer of Broadcom Corp.
Disney sold the Anaheim Angels to Arte Moreno in 2003.
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I hope to God the new owners change the name of the team......the mighty ducks just can't be taken seriously....I mean, really, come on!!!!