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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: africa on February 25, 2006, 12:25:00 pm
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"Punk band the Sex Pistols have refused to attend their own induction into the US Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
In a handwritten note posted on their website, they called the institution "urine in wine".
"We're not your monkeys, we're not coming. You're not paying attention," continued the statement."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4750262.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4750262.stm)
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I'd much prefer that they show up at the ceremony and create a scene.
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Oh man the Pistols meeting Sabbath meeting Skynyrd meeting Blondie ... that would be too hilarious.
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can anyone say "publicity stunt for tired old band that needs to make some headlines to stay somewhat relevant"?
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But wasn't everything about the Sex Pistols really a publicity stunt? They couldn't play their instruments (excepting maybe Glenn Matlock, who also wrote their best songs), they manufactured a "look", and they were basically losers who Malcolm found to play the part of junkie/tragic/anarchistic rock stars.
Even though John Lydon does that well (being a participant on that British version of Big Brother), I don't think they're trying to stay relevant. They really couldn't have had any other reaction to their induction.
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Extremely well put Arlette. They were a fabrication of Malcolm McLaren. Sure, I like their music, but ultimately every single thing they did was a publicity stunt. I still think they were the band that made punk rock a joke and ruined it for a lot of other bands. Seymour Stein distanced himself from support of punk bands and instead wanted it to be labeled "new wave"...he wanted a clear separation from punk. That's why the Ramones ended up recording songs like "Needles and Pins" and "Howling at the Moon".
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Originally posted by bearman:
Extremely well put Arlette. They were a fabrication of Malcolm McLaren. Sure, I like their music, but ultimately every single thing they did was a publicity stunt. I still think they were the band that made punk rock a joke and ruined it for a lot of other bands.
Well, I don't entirely want to make this a mutual wankfest, but thank you, and I 110% agree with the last sentence in your post. They ruined punk rock and made it a joke. Exactly.
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PIL were a much better band than the Pistols anyway IMHO and the
chance of them even being nominated is probably slim to
none. I give the Pitols props in helping to getting a movement up and running, not their minisacule musical contributions,although they had a few.
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this is a delightfully condescending quote:
Executive director of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation, Susan Evans, said: "They are being the outrageous punksters they are, and that's rock 'n' roll."
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I always liked Henry Rollins quote about the Sex Pistols:
"I thought they were more 'cute' than anything else. If John Lydon were here right now, I'd pet him like a little lapdog."
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Originally posted by HoyaParanoia:
can anyone say "publicity stunt for tired old band that needs to make some headlines to stay somewhat relevant"?
I just think they're being lazy. If they really wanted to make headlines they'd show up and cause trouble.
I don't really blame them though. No matter what they do, people are going to give them crap about it. People will call the letter a lazy publicity stunt. If they showed up and caused trouble, people would call it contrived, staged and a last gasp for attention. If they show up and say "thank you" people would call them sellouts.
They can't win. The easiest thing to do is cop the official Sex Pistols attitude and stay home.
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
I always liked Henry Rollins quote about the Sex Pistols:
"I thought they were more 'cute' than anything else. If John Lydon were here right now, I'd pet him like a little lapdog."
this coming from the man who sang "tv party" and probably advanced using "Black Flag Kills Ants on Contact" as the bands statement against Adam and the Ants.
I think the Sex Pistols have the full right to say the Hall of Fame awards suck and choose not to particate. It's become nothing more than a another marketing tool and ego stroking event for all those involved.
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Say what you might about the Sex Pistols...
When I saw them live (Patriot Center and 9:30) they rocked out.
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It seems to me the Sex Pistols had an enormously positive influence on music. It seems like every great British band emerging in the late 70's was either linked to or inspired by them. Like in 24 Hour Party People, you see that Factory Records was created after the label head saw a Sex Pistols show that Joy Divsion was also at. They didn't kill punk rock, and they didn't kill the Ramones. The Ramones didn't sell before the Pistols and they didn't sell after and they always had a soft spot and always played songs like Needles and Pins - like I Want to Be Your Boyfriend on their first. I think the Ramones schtick had a limited shelf-life, as did the Pistols, and the better course may have been to stop (like the Pistols did) than to run it into the ground.
Just about every song on Never Mind the Bollocks is a a classic, and that and their charisma inspired all the bands that inspired all the bands that inspired all the bands - either directly or indirectly. Mclaren put them together, but so what? Should we say Jerry Kraus deserves the credit for the 90's Bulls and not Jordan and Pippen?? Jones and Lydon were an all-time classic guitarist/frontman, albeit for a limited time, but at a pivotal time.
It seems silly for them to take a "punk" stand against the Hall of Fame as old well-past-soldout geezers, but as silly as it is, its nice to see some kind of stand against the disneyfication of the history of music.
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In 1977, when I was 15 years old, and the pop music world was a wasteland of disco, Billy Joel, Peter Frampton and Yes, the Sex Pistols import singles saved rock music for me and game something of my own, something brand fucking new and scabrously raw, hilarious, subversive and headbangingly great. "Holidays", "Pretty Vacant", "Anarchy", "God Save the Queen" .. and album tracks like "EMI" and "Bodies" .. these songs are still thrilling to this day. I remember craving a chance to see them when they did that first US tour. But they toured the south, which basically destroyed them. And then of course Sid (who was just a prop anyway) destroyed himself. Thankfully John kept going and was relevant in the 80s with PiL (that show back at the Warner in 1986, the one with the Beasties opening, was classic), so his place in rock history was enhanced. The later Pistols reunion tours (at the Pat Center and the 930) were nostalgia-fests to be sure, but they were certainly hard-rocking and rude. And I picked up a swell "God Save the Queen" coffee mug that I use to this day. So I'm glad for what they were, and what they've meant for me. When I was a kid, they were the first in a fairly short list of rock 'n' roll saviors.
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I like the Sex Pistols' music as well. But the problem is that they also turned punk rock into a different kind of monster, and a lot of people who started punk (see the 'zine "Punk") were pretty stunned at what it turned into. In NYC, the CBGB's scene was more about the music than anything. You had bands as diverse as the Ramones, Television, Blondie, the Talking Heads, Richard Hell, etc. Malcolm Mclaren turned punk into a fashion thing, and the Sex Pistols were his vehicle. Then it became a media circus. What ended up happening is that punk as a musical force didn't seem viable, record labels didn't want to invest in punk bands after the Pistols, because if punk was all about imploding, then why invest time, money and energy in it? That's the issue I have with the Pistols. Again, I love their music, and yes, a lot of great bands went to see them and were influenced by how easy it was to do...but it was the Clash and the Pistols who saw the Ramones in July 1976, and in the end English punk turned the whole thing into a stereotype of spitting on bands, wearing mohawks, piercing cheeks with safety pins, etc. I think many bands were forced to go New Wave to keep an audience (see Siouxsie and the Banshees, the Damned, Pete Shelley of the Buzzcocks, etc.)
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I hear what everyone is saying about how different they were and how they brought to new life to a dormant music scene, and I love reading the stories about what the Sex Pistols meant to people as they were discovering music, especially having been able to see them live, that must have been awesome.
How about this concillatory statement:
"The Pistols were contrived and calculated (and manufactured) but that didn't make their music any less real or passionate." (I cribbed that from another board where the same discussion is taking place.)
I don't like that they became the standard bearer for "punk"; their "schtick" took away from the music, but yea, I have to agree that they had some great music.
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Originally posted by chancegardener:
"God Save the Queen" coffee mug
That really sums it up.
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i also think that there were a number of socioeconomic issues that factored into how the UK punk scene developed. still don't understand how the sex pistols turned punk into a joke. the intial media circus was more a feeding frenzy over the naughty words the band was goaded into saying by the tv show interviewer. then there was the publicity stunt following the release of "God Save The Queen", something thier record company at the time could have easily refused to release.
new wave became a catch all phrase for a wide variety of bands that began coming out in the late 70's early 80's. it included ska, synthpop, pub rock, rockabilly, etc. in fact i recall reading that the term was actually coined for Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. i don't really see bands turning new wave because of the way UK punks began behaving. and it's not like the major labels were signing punk bands left and right anyways, sex pistols or not.
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The Sex Pistols turned punk into a joke thanks to:
a) being fashion victims, something that was picked up on very fast and taken to extremes by English punks
b) imploding at a time when they were their biggest
c) firing their one true musician (Glenn Matlock) and hiring a total dolt (Sid Vicious)
d) taking the focus away from their music and putting it on controversy and scandal (one could thank Malcolm Mclaren for almost all of the above)
England's Dreaming, Please Kill Me and Johnny Rotten's book pretty well cover all of this.
Kosmo, it had nothing to do with how bands were behaving. It's a business, and when labels saw what happened to the Pistols, it became clear that a watered down version of punk would be a safer bet. But I don't think that's a secret. It's pretty obvious that the Ramones would never be huge, but the Clash (who were dabbling in a lot of other musical influences) could. It was a catch 22 for punk bands too...the minute that they wanted to evolve and grow musically, that's when they lost their punk cred. One can only do so much with 3 chords.
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Oh, come on. Punk was always a joke.
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Rhett's got a point...
First time I heard the Pistols: circa 1979, in a junior high school that was Stoner Central, the king of the stoners, a guy named Paul Carbone, brought "Never Mind the Bollocks" into study hall, and we listened to it at our desks on a turntable from the a/v room while the teacher sat at his desk, boredly watching us. Good stuff.
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I do?
Honestly, the first time I heard "punk" was in 1985, my freshman year of college. One of my dormmates bought "We Are the Meatmen and You Suck" as a joke. And man, that was some of the funniest shit I had ever heard. Even funnier than an Eddie Murphy cassette.
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The Ramones had a sense of humor...I wouldn't call them a joke though. Same thing with the Damned.
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The Meatmen were hilarious, and a great antidote to the puritanistic straight-edge movement that had gotten completely out of hand in DC around that time...
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Wasn't humor just part of the punk reaction to the mannerist arena rock of the late-70's?
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Is anyone on this board old enough to answer this question? Where's Mankie?
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Wasn't humor just part of the punk reaction to the mannerist arena rock of the late-70's?
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First off I'm not buying the fashion victim bit, as music and fashion have often been the passion in the UK. Be it Mods, Rockers, Glam, Ska, Punk, New Wave, Goth, Britpop. People like to identify with their favorite bands, in dress and attitude. In this case Malcolm McClaren just tried to set the style ahead at the outset, by borrowing heavily from the NY scene.
Bands crash and burn all the time early in their careers, at least they walked away instead of pulling a lengthy absence like the Stone Roses.
The Clash fired a drummer because he was supposedly "conservative" and they did in this case replaced with him a decent musician.
The bigger question was Glen fired or did he quit because he was tired of Johnny's attitude. There is suggestion he actually was hired to record tracks even after being fired. And bring in Sid wasn't the smoothest move artistically it was done none the less with the assumption he might actually be able to learn how to play the bass. Paul McCartney had Linda in his band for years, with little evidence of music talent on her part.
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March 14, 2006
At a Hall of Fame Induction, Chords, and a Little Discord (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/14/nyregion/14rock.html)
By KELEFA SANNEH
Last night, for the 21st year in a row, a roomful of rock 'n' roll movers and shakers morphed into rock 'n' roll sitters and eaters. They gathered at the Grand Ballroom at the Waldorf-Astoria, to induct a new group of honorees into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The building is in Cleveland, but the ceremony organizers know that their target demographic prefers the Coasts.
This year's inductees are Blondie, the Sex Pistols, Black Sabbath, Lynyrd Skynyrd and Miles Davis, along with the record executives Herb Alpert and Jerry Moss. The ceremony is to be shown on VH1 at 9 p.m. on next Tuesday.
The night began with a raucous tribute to Wilson Pickett (class of 1991), starring Solomon Burke (class of 2001). Mr. Pickett died in January. Even more raucous was Metallica's musical tribute to Black Sabbath; it followed a heartfelt introduction during which Metallica's lead singer, James Hetfield, fought back tears.
Shirley Manson, lead singer of Garbage, introduced Blondie, calling the group "one of the coolest, most glamorous, most stylish bands in the history of rock 'n' roll." Blondie's guitarist Chris Stein said Ms. Manson's introduction "put dents in my cynicism."
But it wasn't all sweet. When Frank Infante, who was not a founding member of Blondie, asked its lead singer, Debbie Harry, if he could play with the group, she kissed him sweetly and said, "Can't you see my band is up there?" He replied: "Your band? I thought Blondie was being inducted." He did not perform.
Induction into the Hall of Fame is not accompanied by a generous cash stipend. But perhaps the trustees cut a fat check to John Lydon, who was known as Johnny Rotten in the late 1970's when he was the singer for the influential punk band the Sex Pistols.
If he hasn't been given a check, Mr. Lydon deserves one: for the past few weeks, he has been the best publicist the hall could ask for. The band members said they would not be attending, explaining the decision with a splenetic handwritten note posted on a Sex Pistols Web site. Jann S. Wenner, founder of Rolling Stone and vice chairman of the hall (and 2004 inductee), read the note, to laughter and applause.
It says, in part: "Your anonymous as judges, but your still music industry people. Were not coming. Your not paying attention." You won't see the full version in this newspaper, and not just because of all the mangled contractions and misspellings. Mr. Lydon also told the late-night television host Jimmy Kimmel, "This is an institution â?? I don't know who they are, I don't care." But he apparently knows a little, because he continued, "They have rejected our nomination for three years running, and now they want a piece of us."
The hall began its yearly induction ceremony in 1986, and got many of the biggest, most obvious names out of the way pretty quickly. (The first year's haul included Ray Charles, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, James Brown, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis and Buddy Holly; by decade's end, the Beatles, the Beach Boys, the Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan and Stevie Wonder had joined them.)
And so these days, what drama there is surrounding the ceremony concerns the hall's quarter-century rule. According to its Web site, "Artists become eligible for induction 25 years after the release of their first record." Stars can calculate the gap between the year they became eligible and the year they were inducted, then figure out how long they have been made to wait.
By this measure, Mr. Lydon does not have much to complain about. The Sex Pistols released their first and only proper album, "Never Mind the Bollocks," in 1977, which means the band has actually had a shorter waiting period than any of its fellow inductees. Shorter, certainly, than Miles Davis, who released his first album as a band leader about a half-century ago. (He died in 1991.)
He was remembered by Herbie Hancock, another jazz musician who may one day find himself an inductee. And Mr. Hancock did double duty, leading a band through a Miles Davis medley.
The notion of a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame used to inspire skepticism, but these days the ceremony hardly seems like an anomaly: it is a star-driven, ready-for-VH1 awards ceremony in an era full of them.
Still, there is something amusing about watching rock 'n' roll being celebrated during dinner at a fancy hotel. With all those tables and all that catered food and all those tuxedos, the ceremony almost seemed like a wedding. But there was one small but telling difference. A wedding has a dance floor.
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Did we go to the same school?
I had a stoner friend named Paul Carbone. Committed suicide in 1979, age 12.
Originally posted by HERR PROFESSOR DOKTOR DOOM:
Rhett's got a point...
First time I heard the Pistols: circa 1979, in a junior high school that was Stoner Central, the king of the stoners, a guy named Paul Carbone, brought "Never Mind the Bollocks" into study hall, and we listened to it at our desks on a turntable from the a/v room while the teacher sat at his desk, boredly watching us. Good stuff.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
First off I'm not buying the fashion victim bit, as music and fashion have often been the passion in the UK. Be it Mods, Rockers, Glam, Ska, Punk, New Wave, Goth, Britpop. People like to identify with their favorite bands, in dress and attitude. In this case Malcolm McClaren just tried to set the style ahead at the outset, by borrowing heavily from the NY scene.
Bands crash and burn all the time early in their careers, at least they walked away instead of pulling a lengthy absence like the Stone Roses.
The Clash fired a drummer because he was supposedly "conservative" and they did in this case replaced with him a decent musician.
The bigger question was Glen fired or did he quit because he was tired of Johnny's attitude. There is suggestion he actually was hired to record tracks even after being fired. And bring in Sid wasn't the smoothest move artistically it was done none the less with the assumption he might actually be able to learn how to play the bass. Paul McCartney had Linda in his band for years, with little evidence of music talent on her part.
There is a DVD about the making of Never Mind the Bollocks and it has all four of the original members talking about it. Seems Glen was fired for his "Beatle Chords" that Steve said he couldn't play. Steve did the bass lines after Glen's departure. I recommend this DVD, it is pretty cheap.