930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: nkotb on August 08, 2007, 02:37:00 pm
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So I was reading Rolling Stone's article on Appetite for Destruction turning 20 years old (which made me feel old), and it really got me thinking about classic debut albums. Appetite was one for the record books; like it or not, I don't think you can really discredit it's place in rock history.
But beyond that, I can't think of a single debut album that caused such a stir. Can Appetite really be the last great debut album? The only thing I can think of as a potential contender would be Slanted & Enchanted, but less face facts...it didn't have a quarter of the reach that Appetite did.
Any thoughts? Can I really be forgetting something that would top it? And don't start throwing around bullshit "I love the Arctic Monkeys' debut album" because that's pure idiocy.
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Definitely Maybe?
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As much as I hate to say it, I think the Killers Hot Fuss is going to be looked back at as fondly as Appetite.
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This was a damn fine debut that has held up better than his hairstyle...
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
This was a damn fine debut that has held up better than his hairstyle...
you know... i may have to agree with this.
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If Pavement doesn't count, Jeff Buckley doesn't count.
Uhhh...Mellow Gold?
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
This was a damn fine debut that has held up better than his hairstyle...
I don't disagree that it's a damn fine album, but I think many people are still "discovering" that album even today. I read an article where "Hallelujah" appears on a TV show (The West Wing, The OC) and album sales (and now iTunes song sales) spike accordingly. You wouldn't have that with Appetite because most people already have it or have already decided that they are never going to buy it.
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I'm not saying they don't count; just in my opinion neither had quite the impact that Appetite did (though I'd say Pavement had a bigger impact than Jeff Buckley, but again, it's just my opinion).
Originally posted by mbg73:
If Pavement doesn't count, Jeff Buckley doesn't count.
Uhhh...Mellow Gold?
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yeah, there's no way jeff buckley fits what nkotb's going for. i mean, the strokes' first album caused much more of a stir than "grace" ever did.
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That's not Beck's debut.
Originally posted by mbg73:
Uhhh...Mellow Gold?
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Ding ding ding.
This sort of dropped a lot of bands out of the running. I'd think EPs would be fine (I think GNR had an EP out first, maybe), but just mentioning the breakthrough album wouldn't count.
Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
That's not Beck's debut.
Originally posted by mbg73:
Uhhh...Mellow Gold?
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Originally posted by vansmack:
As much as I hate to say it, I think the Killers Hot Fuss is going to be looked back at as fondly as Appetite.
In response to that, I respond with the tenth track on "Appetite": "You're Crazy." For what? "Smile Like You Mean It?"
Who listens to "Appetite" any way? Just nostalgic middle-aged guys from the 80's. Surprise! Surprise! Rolling Stone nostalgically looking back at something that happened twenty years ago?! GET OUT! Jann Werner would NEVER do that. He wouldn't do an entire issue devoted to 1967, either. Jesus, why don't Jann Werner and all his "buddies" just die right now?
Last Great Debut? That's easy. "Is This It." And for the early 2000's, it was just as influential as "Appetite for Destruction." How many bands sounded like GnR after that came out? Ok, now how many bands sounded like the Strokes after "Is This It" came out?
I rest my case. Q.E.D.
Brian
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You are out of your mind :)
Originally posted by vansmack:
As much as I hate to say it, I think the Killers Hot Fuss is going to be looked back at as fondly as Appetite.
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Brian,
nkotb is not even in his 30s :)
Originally posted by Brian Wallace:
Who listens to "Appetite" any way? Just nostalgic middle-aged guys from the 80's. Surprise! Surprise!
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On the world music scene, Definitely Maybe is a viable argument, albeit its minor effect in America.
Arguments could be made for Pearl Jam's Ten or The Postal Service's Give Up.
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Are we talking about the impact on the music scene as a whole? Society? You personally? The album charts?
Not that either band had any real continued success, but both The Counting Crows and Hootie & The Blowfish had enormous debut albums with multiple smash hits on each one. It wouldn't be too hard to name a half dozen other debut albums that came close to, or surpassed G'n'R both in popularity and album sales.
For me personally though I'd have to go with Beastie Boys - License To Ill. That album came out over 20 years ago and when they played Brass Monkey and No Sleep Till Brooklyn at Virgin Fest the crowd went absolutely nuts.
Of course you could make a very strong argument for Nirvana - Nevermind as well.
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I know you all may disagree with my Killers call, but in 1987, if this board existed and somebody (most likely me) posted about GnR you all would have said the same thing. Especially with all the emotion over the Police and The Smiths breaking up, the hatred of GnR would have been immense.
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Where's the tangential thread:
Bands whose first album was clearly their best/Bands whose first album was clearly their worst.
First category:
Oasis
Second category:
Radiohead.
Brian
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Yeah, I could see Oasis being mentioned, and Ten would definitely be a contender. Can't believe I forgot that.
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
On the world music scene, Definitely Maybe is a viable argument, albeit its minor effect in America.
Arguments could be made for Pearl Jam's Ten or The Postal Service's Give Up.
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
On the world music scene, Definitely Maybe is a viable argument, albeit its minor effect in America.
Agreed, because stateside, What's the story... was much more influential.
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Originally posted by nkotb:
Yeah, I could see Oasis being mentioned, and Ten would definitely be a contender. Can't believe I forgot that.
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
On the world music scene, Definitely Maybe is a viable argument, albeit its minor effect in America.
Arguments could be made for Pearl Jam's Ten or The Postal Service's Give Up.
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If we don't just care about sales/radio play, people need to think about the Postal Service's record. I guarantee in 2009 or whenever Pitchfork/Rolling Stone/etc put out there top 100 records of 2000-2009, that record will be in the top 5 of most. And if "indie is the new mainstream" like Rhett likes to claim, a large precentage of that affect can be traced back to that record.
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I was mostly thinking of it in terms of musical impact, which I think is increased by widespread acceptance. Appetite was definitely a punch in the face to a lot of the bullshit pop-metal that was out. At the time, I would've scoffed at comparing GNR to any punk bands, but in retrospect, it's a pretty fitting comparison when you look at attitude and ferocity.
The only think that stops Nirvana is that Nevermind wasn't a debut, and although I can see letting pre-Licensed to Ill Beasties slide, it came out a year before Appetite, which definitely doesn't make it the last great debut :D
Originally posted by Shadrach:
Are we talking about the impact on the music scene as a whole? Society? You personally? The album charts?
Not that either band had any real continued success, but both The Counting Crows and Hootie & The Blowfish had enormous debut albums with multiple smash hits on each one. It wouldn't be too hard to name a half dozen other debut albums that came close to, or surpassed G'n'R both in popularity and album sales.
For me personally though I'd have to go with Beastie Boys - License To Ill. That album came out over 20 years ago and when they played Brass Monkey and No Sleep Till Brooklyn at Virgin Fest the crowd went absolutely nuts.
Of course you could make a very strong argument for Nirvana - Nevermind as well.
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The Strokes - Is This It?
They had to change the "sexy" album cover AND delete "NYC Cops" on the official US release.
Originally posted by nkotb:
But beyond that, I can't think of a single debut album that caused such a stir.
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Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
The Strokes - Is This It?
This isn't a horrible choice, but I think it's musical affect is proving to not be particularly long-lasting. Are kids in 2010 going to reference the Strokes? Uh, prolly not. But yeah, for 3-4 years there, everything in new rock/indie was reactionary to The Strokes.
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I wouldn't have, because 1987 nkotb would've called the lot of you pussies for listening to the Smiths and the Police ;) . But then again, my tastes have evolved past just Anthrax, Megadeth and NWA. Now I have a soft side.
Originally posted by vansmack:
I know you all may disagree with my Killers call, but in 1987, if this board existed and somebody (most likely me) posted about GnR you all would have said the same thing. Especially with all the emotion over the Police and The Smiths breaking up, the hatred of GnR would have been immense.
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Agreed, although I think it's a little foolish to compare the shocking impact that the Strokes had when compared to GNR. But does anyone still like the Strokes besides me?
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
The Strokes - Is This It?
This isn't a horrible choice, but I think it's musical affect is proving to not be particularly long-lasting. Are kids in 2010 going to reference the Strokes? Uh, prolly not. But yeah, for 3-4 years there, everything in new rock/indie was reactionary to The Strokes. [/b]
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36 chambers
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Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
The Strokes - Is This It?
They had to change the "sexy" album cover AND delete "NYC Cops" on the official US release.
Which remain "The two stupidest record company censors of all time."
Oh, the OUTRAGE if right after September 11th, the public were to hear that New York City Cops....ain't too smart. Thanks, RCA!
Brian
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Originally posted by nkotb:
But does anyone still like the Strokes besides me?
I like them ALOT, and Is This It? will probably be in my top 15 of the decade, but I can't just pretend they're still having a huge influence.
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Interpol: Turn on the Bright Lights
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To BookerT and god's shoeshine, I was trying to think of hip-hop albums and drew a blank on both. You may have points there, especially with The Chronic.
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Broken Social Scene - You Forgot It In People
Love this record, and it spawned all of those Toronto bands, as well as paved the way for the massive indie rock bands we've got now.
I second the Strokes. Vastly underrated record in terms of impact on the music scene.
I also think the Killers is an apt one, but for that realm of music, I might suggest Interpol's debut in lieu of the Killers.
And if we're not talking about just rock music? Britney Spears, Eminem, Kelly Clarkson...
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Originally posted by BookerT:
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Doctor Dre? I've never heard of them... are they a Pixies cover band or something?
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...
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
Interpol: Turn on the Bright Lights
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
The Strokes - Is This It?
This isn't a horrible choice, but I think it's musical affect is proving to not be particularly long-lasting. Are kids in 2010 going to reference the Strokes? Uh, prolly not. But yeah, for 3-4 years there, everything in new rock/indie was reactionary to The Strokes. [/b]
I disagree. I think the Strokes allowed the indie rock crossover - would the White Stripes, Death Cab for Cutie, Bright Eyes, etc have made it as huge if the Strokes hadn't broken down that barrier?
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Originally posted by Brian Wallace:
Who listens to "Appetite" any way? Just nostalgic middle-aged guys from the 80's. Surprise! Surprise! Rolling Stone nostalgically looking back at something that happened twenty years ago?! GET OUT! Jann Werner would NEVER do that. He wouldn't do an entire issue devoted to 1967, either. Jesus, why don't Jann Werner and all his "buddies" just die right now?
Last Great Debut? That's easy. "Is This It." And for the early 2000's, it was just as influential as "Appetite for Destruction." How many bands sounded like GnR after that came out? Ok, now how many bands sounded like the Strokes after "Is This It" came out?
I rest my case. Q.E.D.
Brian
You're talking about the same Rolling Stone that has had Fall Out Boy, Panic at the Disco, and Amy Winehouse on the cover this year? That one?
I do have to agree though that "Is This It" was a great debut and spawned a lot of imitators the way "Definitely Maybe" and "Ten" did.
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Originally posted by allmy$to930:
Interpol: Turn on the Bright Lights
i love this album, but no. sorry.
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Not a debut, but also
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Originally posted by callat703:
Broken Social Scene - You Forgot It In People
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Originally posted by BookerT:
Dre - The Chronic
Good Call.
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Originally posted by callat703:
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
The Strokes - Is This It?
This isn't a horrible choice, but I think it's musical affect is proving to not be particularly long-lasting. Are kids in 2010 going to reference the Strokes? Uh, prolly not. But yeah, for 3-4 years there, everything in new rock/indie was reactionary to The Strokes. [/b]
I disagree. I think the Strokes allowed the indie rock crossover - would the White Stripes, Death Cab for Cutie, Bright Eyes, etc have made it as huge if the Strokes hadn't broken down that barrier? [/b]
no. 'the oc' broke that barrier. not the strokes.
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If you can count solo spinoffs (like the The Chronic), then I would put Heartbreaker out there.
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Honestly, what impact did Heartbreaker have? A good album, but you've got to be kidding!
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
If you can count solo spinoffs (like the The Chronic), then I would put Heartbreaker out there.
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I still have no clue as to what the exact criteria is, but could I throw this one into the mix? It sold hoooooge, and has spawned its fair share of wannabes.
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Originally posted by BookerT:
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DEAR GOD! Thank you. While I'm at it, I would like to thank whoever named 36 Chambers. Let me run down the list briefly:
Straight Outta Compton (I'll dismiss "N.W.A. & The Posse", cause most people don't know it exists)
Illmatic
Reasonable Doubt
Ready To Die
I'll name more once it hits me. Considering that hip-hop has been the most dominant culture/musical genre (just look at Madison Avenue, you can't sell shit without a hip-hop beat in the background) of the past 20 years, you have to list these albums as well. While their album sales pale in comparison to Appetite, the influence pound for pound in each respective genre isn't even close. Guns 'N Roses didn't reinvent the wheel, but these albums did.
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First, whether the Strokes were ever "indie" since they were never on an indie label and their debut single tore up the MTV/radio charts is questionable. Second, even if they are "indie," they are a different musical style of indie music then DCFC, BSS, Bright Eyes, or any of the other bands people are saying got popular because of them.
O.C. Rock or Braff Rock DOES NOT share a sound or a fan base with the Strokes. If there were a ton of Mooney Suzuki-esque bands that prospered from the Strokes, then OK, but there aren't. In fact, if you want to argue the record that most and first made OC/Braff rock accessible to the pop masses, it's the Postal Service record like I said.
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Straight Outta Compton wasn't a debut...which is why I didn't include it. I was going to mention the other three, but I was doing some research first to make sure I had my facts straight about release dates and all. Illmatic is definitely up there though.
And Public Enemy's debut didn't make it because it was after Appetite. Good calls otherwise.
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
DEAR GOD! Thank you. While I'm at it, I would like to thank whoever named 36 Chambers. Let me run down the list briefly:
Straight Outta Compton (I'll dismiss "N.W.A. & The Posse", cause most people don't know it exists)
Illmatic
Reasonable Doubt
Ready To Die
I'll name more once it hits me. Considering that hip-hop has been the most dominant culture/musical genre (just look at Madison Avenue, you can't sell shit without a hip-hop beat in the background) of the past 20 years. You have to list these albums as well. While their album sales pale in comparison to Appetite, the influence pound for pound in each respective genre isn't even close. Guns 'N Roses didn't reinvent the wheel, but these albums did.
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
Considering that hip-hop has been the most dominant culture/musical genre (just look at Madison Avenue, you can't sell shit without a hip-hop beat in the background) of the past 20 years.
I don't know what this "hip"-hop is, so I'm going to assume you've mistyped trip-hop, in which case, shouldn't we be discussing Dummy or Mezzanine? I mean, I realize everyone is trying to score indie-cred points by naming obscure acts, but you have to give props to the titans of the scene, hipster props be damned.
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We are not talking about impact. We are talking about "great albums". I think a lot of people consider Heartbreaker to be a great album. I easily consider it to be one of the ten best of the last decade, and it was a debut.
Originally posted by nkotb:
Honestly, what impact did Heartbreaker have? A good album, but you've got to be kidding!
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
If you can count solo spinoffs (like the The Chronic), then I would put Heartbreaker out there.
[/b]
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
Considering that hip-hop has been the most dominant culture/musical genre (just look at Madison Avenue, you can't sell shit without a hip-hop beat in the background) of the past 20 years.
I don't know what this "hip"-hop is, so I'm going to assume you've mistyped trip-hop, in which case, shouldn't we be discussing Dummy or Mezzanine? I mean, I realize everyone is trying to score indie-cred points by naming obscure acts, but you have to give props to the titans of the scene, hipster props be damned. [/b]
No. No mistype. Let me break it down for you.
Hip-Hop/MCs = Rakim, Jay-Z, Mos Def, Kanye, etc.
Rap/Rappers = Nelly, Coolio, any other ringtone rapper you hear on the radio today that includes a dance with their song, etc.
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Well hell, I love Ween's debut album, but I'd be kidding myself to put in on a list with Appetite.
Did you miss the "single debut album that caused such a stir" clause in my original post? Or the "he only thing I can think of as a potential contender would be Slanted & Enchanted, but less face facts...it didn't have a quarter of the reach that Appetite did." Or maybe the "And don't start throwing around bullshit "I love the Arctic Monkeys' debut album" because that's pure idiocy" part?
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
We are not talking about impact. We are talking about "great albums". I think a lot of people consider Heartbreaker to be a great album. I easily consider it to be one of the ten best of the last decade, and it was a debut.
Originally posted by nkotb:
Honestly, what impact did Heartbreaker have? A good album, but you've got to be kidding!
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
If you can count solo spinoffs (like the The Chronic), then I would put Heartbreaker out there.
[/b]
[/b]
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Snoop Doggy Dog - Doggystyle!!
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I believe there was an underlined implication that impact was being discussed as well. Heartbreaker had no impact like most of the other albums being named. Which is a testament to Ryan cause he has his own lane.
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
We are not talking about impact. We are talking about "great albums". I think a lot of people consider Heartbreaker to be a great album. I easily consider it to be one of the ten best of the last decade, and it was a debut.
Originally posted by nkotb:
Honestly, what impact did Heartbreaker have? A good album, but you've got to be kidding!
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
If you can count solo spinoffs (like the The Chronic), then I would put Heartbreaker out there.
[/b]
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--double post--
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AF/Funeral will hold up historically as a classic debut
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
No. No mistype. Let me break it down for you.
Hip-Hop/MCs = Rakim, Jay-Z, Mos Def, Kanye, etc.
Rap/Rappers = Nelly, Coolio, any other ringtone rapper you hear on the radio today that includes a dance with their song, etc.
I didn't understand a word of any of this.
No matter: I'm going to go listen to Wolf Eyes (sincerely) and Wolf Parade (ironically).
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
First, whether the Strokes were ever "indie" since they were never on an indie label and their debut single tore up the MTV/radio charts is questionable. Second, even if they are "indie," they are a different musical style of indie music then DCFC, BSS, Bright Eyes, or any of the other bands people are saying got popular because of them.
O.C. Rock or Braff Rock DOES NOT share a sound or a fan base with the Strokes. If there were a ton of Mooney Suzuki-esque bands that prospered from the Strokes, then OK, but there aren't. In fact, if you want to argue the record that most and first made OC/Braff rock accessible to the pop masses, it's the Postal Service record like I said.
I didn't say the Strokes were indie. I said they broke down that barrier. The aesthetic of that Strokes record is undeniably one that is shared by the majority of indie rock - Casablancas' vocals, for example, being masked by the vocal effect. People wouldn't have been ready for a Bright Eyes without being opened up to the different audio aesthetic that the Strokes provided to the masses. It was then in turn cemented by the White Stripes.
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Looks like Reasonable Doubt came out in 1996, which I think may give the Director the win. That's definitely a top contender.
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
No. No mistype. Let me break it down for you.
Hip-Hop/MCs = Rakim, Jay-Z, Mos Def, Kanye, etc.
Rap/Rappers = Nelly, Coolio, any other ringtone rapper you hear on the radio today that includes a dance with their song, etc.
I didn't understand a word of this.[/b]
Then you never will, my friend. And I shall not hold it against you.
P.S. Where do you think trip-hop originated from???
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Originally posted by callat703:
People wouldn't have been ready for a Bright Eyes without being opened up to the different audio aesthetic that the Strokes provided to the masses. It was then in turn cemented by the White Stripes.
I don't agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
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Originally posted by nkotb:
Looks like Reasonable Doubt came out in 1996, which I think may give the Director the win. That's definitely a top contender.
I'm a walking hip-hop encyclopedia. Just don't flex it until necessary. :D
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by BookerT:
Dre - The Chronic
Good Call. [/b]
Dre's is a debut in name, but the spirit of a classic debit is a band that comes from out of nowhere. Just sayin is all.
Funeral will stand the test of time, and will surely be looked back as a classic album.
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I read somewhere that in the last twenty years there's only been three albums that changed (or at least altered) the state of rock due to not only the album's impact, but also what became "cool" and "uncool" after the album's release. Is This It, Nevermind and Appetite for Destruction.
"Is This It" easily is the weakest of the three in terms of sales and most of the general public probably can't even hum "Last Nite" but the guitar bands that suddenly got attention because of the Strokes and the hype are numerous.
Brian
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Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
Snoop Doggy Dog - Doggystyle!!
I endorse it, even though The Chronic was more or less Snoop's debut. Good call nonetheless.
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
P.S. Where do you think trip-hop originated from???
Like most music post-1971, it was a reactionary response to The Velvet Underground. Hello! :roll:
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it's too bad no doubt's tragic kingdom wasn't their debut. or else that would have been my vote.
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I could also throw the Stone Roses record in there. Even more interesting since they totally imploded after it.
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<img src="http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q233/aobehr/Old_Man_Waterfall_futurama.jpg" alt=" - " />
I request a Satanic funeral.
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
I don't agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
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Got it. I don't think anything has come out since Appetite that has had that kind of impact.
[walks away with tail between legs]
Originally posted by nkotb:
Well hell, I love Ween's debut album, but I'd be kidding myself to put in on a list with Appetite.
Did you miss the "single debut album that caused such a stir" clause in my original post? Or the "he only thing I can think of as a potential contender would be Slanted & Enchanted, but less face facts...it didn't have a quarter of the reach that Appetite did." Or maybe the "And don't start throwing around bullshit "I love the Arctic Monkeys' debut album" because that's pure idiocy" part?
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
We are not talking about impact. We are talking about "great albums". I think a lot of people consider Heartbreaker to be a great album. I easily consider it to be one of the ten best of the last decade, and it was a debut.
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Haha...sorry if I was cranky. It's a thousand degrees in my office and I haven't stopped sweating since my morning run.
I do like Heartbreaker, if it's any consolation!
Originally posted by allmy$to930:
Got it. I don't think anything has come out since Appetite that has had that kind of impact.
[walks away with tail between legs]
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WOW! How did I forget these??
ATCQ - People's Instinctive Travels & The Paths Of Rhythm (I've seen a couple of you hipsters reference "El Segundo" numerous times.)
De La Soul - 3 Feet High & Rising
These albums changed the face of hip-hop, as harder/street shit seemed to be taking over until these 2 albums popped up in the early 90s.
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Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's too bad no doubt's tragic kingdom wasn't their debut. or else that would have been my vote.
I was going to say the same, but did anybody on the board besides me, own No Doubt S/T before Tragic Kingdom came out?
Wait, does anybody even own Tragic Kingdom?
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Originally posted by nkotb:
Haha...sorry if I was cranky. It's a thousand degrees in my office and I haven't stopped sweating since my morning run.
Actually, I think all this talk about GnR, Anthrax, NWA and Dre has taken you back to your "Angry Days" growing up....
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The only two really acceptable answers to this are Neutral Milk Hotel's On Avery Island and Raccoo-oo-oon's Night People.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's too bad no doubt's tragic kingdom wasn't their debut. or else that would have been my vote.
I was going to say the same, but did anybody on the board besides me, own No Doubt S/T before Tragic Kingdom came out?
Wait, does anybody even own Tragic Kingdom? [/b]
Love me some Miss P, got love for vansmack. Gotta disagree. There wasn't anything particularly influential about Tragic Kingdom. Sublime & 311 were already running with the "ska thing" that exploded in the mid-90s. Which was really fueled by the fact that suburban kids were copping Bob Marley's Legend by the boatload like the shit was new.
BTW, nkotb this is EASILY the best thread in weeks. Gold star for you!
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's too bad no doubt's tragic kingdom wasn't their debut. or else that would have been my vote.
I was going to say the same, but did anybody on the board besides me, own No Doubt S/T before Tragic Kingdom came out?
Wait, does anybody even own Tragic Kingdom? [/b]
i so own tragic kingdom.
afterall... i am just a girl.
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I'm not saying they don't count; just in my opinion neither had quite the impact that Appetite did (though I'd say Pavement had a bigger impact than Jeff Buckley, but again, it's just my opinion).
quote:Originally posted by mbg73:
If Pavement doesn't count, Jeff Buckley doesn't count.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant.
That's not Beck's debut.
quote:Originally posted by mbg73:
Uhhh...Mellow Gold?
True, but they all came out within the same year and pretty close to one another, so I figured it was acceptable. But agreed, not a true debut.
Ten was a good call, and the closest thing to Appetite posted so far.
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I own Tragic Kingdom, but only ironically, and I've never actually listened to it.
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
I own Tragic Kingdom, but only ironically, and I've never actually listened to it.
why would you own an album ironically?
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I actually own it as well, and the two proper follow-ups. And their not my wife's. And its not ironically.
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's too bad no doubt's tragic kingdom wasn't their debut. or else that would have been my vote.
I was going to say the same, but did anybody on the board besides me, own No Doubt S/T before Tragic Kingdom came out?
Wait, does anybody even own Tragic Kingdom? [/b]
i so own tragic kingdom.
afterall... i am just a girl. [/b]
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Originally posted by miss pretentious:
why would you own an album ironically?
I don't even know how to begin answering that question! :eek:
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I had to google that one. Does that disqualify it as a significant album?
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
I own Tragic Kingdom, but only ironically, and I've never actually listened to it.
-
I'll one up you and tell you that I'm listening to it right now, and would have done so with out this thread (which I agree is a great thread).
I'm just prepping for my trip to The OC this weekend.
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Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
I had to google that one.
:eek:
Wow. That's so underground.
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Notorious B.I.G. - Ready To Die defined the era and influenced all who followed
The Stone Roses - defined the era and influenced all who followed
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<img src="http://i15.tinypic.com/4l7918l.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
why would you own an album ironically?
I don't even know how to begin answering that question! :eek: [/b]
it's an honest question though. like, did you just get it as a gift and keep it for giggles? or did you actually purchase it because you felt it would look good as part of a collection? or what?
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Originally posted by themaestro:
<img src="http://i15.tinypic.com/4l7918l.jpg" alt=" - " />
I thought of this one. It's huge, no doubt, but where are the followers?
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Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's an honest question though. like, did you just get it as a gift and keep it for giggles? or did you actually purchase it because you felt it would look good as part of a collection? or what?
Well, there's some music that people listen to because it appeals to the auditory sense. And then there's some music people listen to because it appeals to the ironic senses.
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's an honest question though. like, did you just get it as a gift and keep it for giggles? or did you actually purchase it because you felt it would look good as part of a collection? or what?
Well, there's some music that people listen to because it appeals to the auditory sense. And then there's some music people listen to because it appeals to the ironic senses. [/b]
but you said you had never listened to it.
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If it was the mid-90's and it wasn't country/alt-country, I probably didn't hear it.
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
I had to google that one.
:eek:
Wow. That's so underground. [/b]
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
There wasn't anything particularly influential about Tragic Kingdom. Sublime & 311 were already running with the "ska thing" that exploded in the mid-90s.
I'll make a deal with you: I won't lecture you on rap and hip-hop if you promise to not give any more lectures on Mid-90's ska. Mid-90's ska for the rest of America was late 80's for the fine folks in So Cal, and yes, while it was pinched from Marley and the Specials from the late 70's early 80's UK revival, it's evident by your inclusion of 311 in the same conversation as No Doubt and Sublime that you're way out of your league. Fishbone, I would have given you, but 311 is unforgivable. Love it or hate it, No Doubt are credited with bringing Ska to the 90's mainstream music scene, not 311 or Sublime.
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Originally posted by Mobius:
Notorious B.I.G. - Ready To Die defined the era and influenced all who followed
The Stone Roses - defined the era and influenced all who followed
Already named Ready To Die, but love that you mentioned it nonetheless.
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Originally posted by miss pretentious:
but you said you had never listened to it.
I know, I haven't bought out the time to listen to it yet from my busy schedule of blogging about german techno, deriding tinymixtapes for selling out, and working with my band VC++ Build 3.12a on our debut ghost-rock record.
But I trust from a cursory glance at the tracklisting and a mashup set I saw once that it's fairly ironic.
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Originally posted by miss pretentious:
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's an honest question though. like, did you just get it as a gift and keep it for giggles? or did you actually purchase it because you felt it would look good as part of a collection? or what?
Well, there's some music that people listen to because it appeals to the auditory sense. And then there's some music people listen to because it appeals to the ironic senses. [/b]
but you said you had never listened to it. [/b]
How ironic!? :roll:
311? influence? I thought Page 1 made this the worst thread ever this week.
nkotb - Your criteria was good, thanks for trying, but it's a tough one. I'd probably pick someone who warrants a RS cover in another 20 years, one that impacted most everyone. (Grr- Brain Walalace! [mis-sp. on purpose])
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Jagged Little Pill, Alanis Morissette
Sadly it's been downhill for her since.
-
Few debuts are as huge as Appetite, you will be hearing those songs on radio for a LONG time. If Zep still gets play, in another 20 years you will still be hearing "Paradise City" and "Sweet Child of Mine".
I don't think anything remotely approaches that level, but as far as other debuts from the last 20 years, these are my own personal favorites, and I think they were influential in much smaller circles. But nothing can reach Appetite's enormous level.
<img src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000004V2.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001F0H.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/9220000/9224243.jpg" alt=" - " />
and one that really probably didn't influence many but I still listen to ALL the time:
<img src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002HBA.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
There wasn't anything particularly influential about Tragic Kingdom. Sublime & 311 were already running with the "ska thing" that exploded in the mid-90s.
I'll make a deal with you: I won't lecture you on rap and hip-hop if you promise to not give any more lectures on Mid-90's ska. Mid-90's ska for the rest of America was late 80's for the fine folks in So Cal, and yes, while it was pinched from Marley and the Specials from the late 70's early 80's UK revival, it's evident by your inclusion of 311 in the same conversation as No Doubt and Sublime that you're way out of your league. Fishbone, I would have given you, but 311 is unforgivable. Love it or hate it, No Doubt are credited with bringing Ska to the 90's mainstream music scene, not 311 or Sublime. [/b]
Dear Smackie,
I didn't say either were great bands. I am endorsing no one. While it's obvious that So Cal was far ahead of the nation's ska curve, YOU must keep in mind that the nation was not NEARLY as cultured as you So Cal folk. I am well aware of who The Specials are & their HEAVY influence on No Doubt as Tony & Gwen discussed that when they first blew. But the average person back then & now has NO idea who The Specials are. But the average person certainly did equate 311 & Sublime with ska. The whole thing started to bubble above ground with "40 Oz. To Freedom" (1992). "Smoke Two Joints" (Don't care for Sublime all that much, but love this song) has been SLAYING jukeboxes for 15 years now. No Doubt hadn't "blown up" per se until my senior year, which was '95-'96. Also if I remember, 311 was all over MTV before them as well. Like it or not, that was back when MTV dictated what was hot or what wasn't. 311's movement started to bubble with Grassroots, which was in '94. Then that blue album which made you really made you hate them forever. Both ahead of No Doubt's explosion as well. Just saying . . .
I don't tend to open my mouth if I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't like to be wrong. I have no issue admitting when I am, it just doesn't happen often. You're still cool as a fan, though. :D
P.S. Do the Mighty Mighty Bosstones fit in this argument/convo?? Cause they were getting burn around that period as well.
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
Originally posted by Mobius:
Notorious B.I.G. - Ready To Die defined the era and influenced all who followed
The Stone Roses - defined the era and influenced all who followed
Already named Ready To Die, but love that you mentioned it nonetheless. [/b]
A little emphasis doesn't hurt! I'll add that I don't think Reasonable Doubt exists without Ready To Die (as Hot Fuss does not exist without Is This It)
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<img src="http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NtzrWOjxL.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by eros:
I could also throw the Stone Roses record in there. Even more interesting since they totally imploded after it.
i was thinking the same thing. and esp with all the bands they have influenced (esp as of late). if kasabian isnt the stone roses reincarnated, im not sure what is. Serge even has ian brown's ego!
my own choice would have been bon jovi - slippery when wet - but its not their debut album, alas. (nor would it qualify as the last great...).
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Originally posted by Mobius:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
Originally posted by Mobius:
Notorious B.I.G. - Ready To Die defined the era and influenced all who followed
The Stone Roses - defined the era and influenced all who followed
Already named Ready To Die, but love that you mentioned it nonetheless. [/b]
A little emphasis doesn't hurt! I'll add that I don't think Reasonable Doubt exists without Ready To Die (as Hot Fuss does not exist without Is This It) [/b]
Not really. Two different kinds of albums. Reasonable was an introspective album dealing with the privileges, pitfalls & "psychoanalysis" of hustling if you will. A new twist on what was at that time a tired subject.
Ready To Die came from a place of desparation & hopelessness.
Hot Fuss was cool & all, but it wasn't a classic. But under the criteria they did have a shitload of buzz, plus they were nice enough to create The Bravery. Pause.
:eek:
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
P.S. Do the Mighty Mighty Bosstones fit in this argument/convo, cause they were getting burn around that period as well.
I would put them on the list behind No doubt and Sublime, but way ahead of 311. But MTV did not dictate what was cool for me, ever actually, but KROQ did for the majority of my formative years, and since you were not in So Cal then and had no access to KROQ, I'm giving you a pass a buying the first of many rounds in September - as soon as No Doubt comes on the jukebox that is. Or Bad Fish, which is the best Sublime song.
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Originally posted by BookerT:
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Dr.DreTheChronic.jpg" alt=" - " />
yup
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All of you keep mentioning albums that will forever be on "best of the decade" etc. lists but are not actually "great."
I believe "a great album" in this sense isn't just an album that causes a 'stir,' although it helps if the album did, but an album that is a strong statement of both the band, the music at the time it was released, and maybe even something about society at the time of its release. Likewise, one should be able to pinpoint the influence the album had on, again, the band, the era's music, and society. It can't just be an album that brought about millions of copycat bands, it had to be one that shook up music as a whole.
So Tragic Kingdom? No. Grace is out as well because the influence that album had isn't really existent. On Avery Island? Get the fuck outta here, Julian. The debuts of Oasis and Nirvana violate the rule that it can't just spawn ripoff bands, because the influence of those two isn't really felt on anything outside of the genres those bands belong to. This is why the Strokes are out too. What bands are influenced by the Strokes but don't sound like them?
Therefore, the three albums previously mentioned that best fit the description of great above are Slanted and Enchanted, Funeral, and, yes, Hot Fuss. Granted, arguments can be made against all three. But I guess that's kind of the point.
BTW, I'd like to add DJ Shadow's Endtroducing.... to the discussion.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
P.S. Do the Mighty Mighty Bosstones fit in this argument/convo, cause they were getting burn around that period as well.
I would put them on the list behind No doubt and Sublime, but way ahead of 311. But MTV did not dictate what was cool for me, ever actually, but KROQ did for the majority of my formative years, and since you were not in So Cal then and had no access to KROQ, I'm giving you a pass a buying the first of many rounds in September - as soon as No Doubt comes on the jukebox that is. Or Bad Fish, which is the best Sublime song. [/b]
Once again, not a big Sublime fan. But "Bad Fish" is one hot ass song. Agreed.
WARNING: UNRELATED THOUGHT P.S. This ska thing got me thinking. After Virgin Festival this weekend, my new favorite Police song (this week) is "When The World Is Running Down . . ." They pulled it out of nowhere, as that was the first time I heard it in 3 shows. Forgot how great it was. But we will save this for our jukebox debate.
And of course, I can't hear it here. But I am well aware of KROQ & their marvelous annual Weenie Roasts. :D
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I'm not a big fan myself, but this one certainly gets a lot of credit for being groundbreaking and spawning a whole genre.
<img src="http://www.abc.net.au/myfavouritealbum/albumart/img/bollocks.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by you be pickup:
On Avery Island? Get the fuck outta here, Julian.
That was a complete joke. My serious answers are Ten and Give Up.
-
Originally posted by you be pickup:
All of you keep mentioning albums that will forever be on "best of the decade" etc. lists but are not actually "great."
it had to be one that shook up music as a whole.
Without diving too far in, you wouldn't say The Chronic fits that decription???? Cause that album is far more historically important in music than the Stone Roses or Funeral. And before you get your Vickies in a bunch, I like both of those albums aforementioned. I'm just throwing your criteria back at you . . .
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Originally posted by you be pickup:
BTW, I'd like to add DJ Shadow's Endtroducing.... to the discussion.
And this album "shook up music" how???
-
Originally posted by you be pickup:
All of you keep mentioning albums that will forever be on "best of the decade" etc. lists but are not actually "great."
I believe "a great album" in this sense isn't just an album that causes a 'stir,' although it helps if the album did, but an album that is a strong statement of both the band, the music at the time it was released, and maybe even something about society at the time of its release. Likewise, one should be able to pinpoint the influence the album had on, again, the band, the era's music, and society. It can't just be an album that brought about millions of copycat bands, it had to be one that shook up music as a whole.
So Tragic Kingdom? No. Grace is out as well because the influence that album had isn't really existent. On Avery Island? Get the fuck outta here, Julian. The debuts of Oasis and Nirvana violate the rule that it can't just spawn ripoff bands, because the influence of those two isn't really felt on anything outside of the genres those bands belong to. This is why the Strokes are out too. What bands are influenced by the Strokes but don't sound like them?
Therefore, the three albums previously mentioned that best fit the description of great above are Slanted and Enchanted, Funeral, and, yes, Hot Fuss. Granted, arguments can be made against all three. But I guess that's kind of the point.
BTW, I'd like to add DJ Shadow's Endtroducing.... to the discussion.
I don't follow the logic of this at all.
-
First of all, it's pre-Appetite, so that album would still be the last great debut (although we've come up with a few that I think definitely count).
Second, everyone knows the Stooges invented punk :D
Originally posted by eros:
I'm not a big fan myself, but this one certainly gets a lot of credit for being groundbreaking and spawning a whole genre.
<img src="http://www.abc.net.au/myfavouritealbum/albumart/img/bollocks.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by nkotb:
(although we've come up with a few that I think definitely count).
Second, everyone knows the Stooges invented punk :D
I'll toss The Who & The Kinks in as the blueprint, but I most def agree with you.
-
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
There wasn't anything particularly influential about Tragic Kingdom. Sublime & 311 were already running with the "ska thing" that exploded in the mid-90s.
I'll make a deal with you: I won't lecture you on rap and hip-hop if you promise to not give any more lectures on Mid-90's ska. Mid-90's ska for the rest of America was late 80's for the fine folks in So Cal, and yes, while it was pinched from Marley and the Specials from the late 70's early 80's UK revival, it's evident by your inclusion of 311 in the same conversation as No Doubt and Sublime that you're way out of your league. Fishbone, I would have given you, but 311 is unforgivable. Love it or hate it, No Doubt are credited with bringing Ska to the 90's mainstream music scene, not 311 or Sublime. [/b]
some people just shouldnt discuss ska music. on that note, were you a fan of the dance hall crashers smackie? from richmond, but they had that really catchy song 'he wants me back'. theres a great album called ska-quake that had the best california ska bands on it. and i learned how to skank with the guys from skankin' pickle! ok so check out this stuff. now heres some ska music to listen to:
. He Wants Me Back - Dance Hall Crashers
2. Diablo Ska - Jump with Joey
3. Bad Attitude
4. Fakin' Jamaican - Skankin' Pickle
5. Telephone - Skeletones
6. Ooh Ooh A-Hi Hi - Hepcat
7. Rack 'Em Up - Imperials
8. Pinstripe Suit - Let's Go Bowling
9. Up Yours - No Doubt
10. I'm Giving Up
11. Don't Change My Song - The Specs
12. Martians Don't Skank
13. Rosalina - The Upbeat
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Simple. DJ Shadow shook each album he sampled from out of the LP sleeve.
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
And this album "shook up music" how???
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NO PUNK DEBATES.
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Originally posted by econo:
Simple. DJ Shadow shook each album he sampled from out of the LP sleeve.
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
And this album "shook up music" how???
[/b]
hahaha i nearly spit out my cake reading that. good one!
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Speaking of ska, the Pietasters are playing for free Friday night five miles from my house. Worth the time and gas money?
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Mariah Carey self-titled
;)
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Originally posted by miss pretentious:
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
why would you own an album ironically?
I don't even know how to begin answering that question! :eek: [/b]
it's an honest question though. like, did you just get it as a gift and keep it for giggles? or did you actually purchase it because you felt it would look good as part of a collection? or what? [/b]
Maybe it's ironic because it's NOT a debut album, I'm surprised one of the many Californians frequenting this board didn't chime in here, as the first ND album was 92, think I still have the cassette in storage somewhere.
<img src="http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc400/c494/c49483k6irv.jpg" alt=" - " />
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][/QUOTE]Not really. Two different kinds of albums. Reasonable was an introspective album dealing with the privileges, pitfalls & "psychoanalysis" of hustling if you will. A new twist on what was at that time a tired subject.
Ready To Die came from a place of desparation & hopelessness.
:eek: [/QB][/QUOTE]
I kind of disagree. Ready to Die was the 'blueprint' of the introspective hustler album. 'Warning' reveals 'desperate' side, but 'Juicy' and 'Big Poppa' are 100% cocksure. the 'hopelessness' didn't come from self-doubt - but from the pitfalls of hustling. I think of Reasonable Doubt as an album made by someone with talent who wanted to make Ready To Die, but maybe w/out the vulnerability.
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Originally posted by bnyced0:
Maybe it's ironic because it's NOT a debut album, I'm surprised one of the many Californians frequenting this board didn't chime in here, as the first ND album was 92, think I still have the cassette in storage somewhere.
You mean like right here when Miss P started the conversation on No Doubt and I started the tangent?
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's too bad no doubt's tragic kingdom wasn't their debut. or else that would have been my vote.
I was going to say the same, but did anybody on the board besides me, own No Doubt S/T before Tragic Kingdom came out?
Wait, does anybody even own Tragic Kingdom? [/b]
Oh, the irony.
-
Going back to the original topic, I think The Stone Roses is almost analogous to Appetite for Destruction - replace Britain for US (and ectasy for heroin). Massive impact, massive singles, massive staying power, massive mystique.
-
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
Speaking of ska, the Pietasters are playing for free Friday night five miles from my house. Worth the time and gas money?
I think Pietasters were the first band I saw at the 930 Club, years ago - either in '95 or '96. They were great back then. Not sure what they're like these days, as I haven't kept up with them. I haven't been to a ska show in a long time, but I think I'm gonna go to that Slackers show when they come.
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no worries - us californians are ahead of the curve! but yes - it was stated in the thread it wasnt their debut album.
Originally posted by bnyced0:
Maybe it's ironic because it's NOT a debut album, I'm surprised one of the many Californians frequenting this board didn't chime in here, as the first ND album was 92, think I still have the cassette in storage somewhere.
-
How about Rage Against the Machine?
-
Originally posted by xneverwherex:
no worries - us californians are ahead of the curve! but yes - it was stated in the thread it wasnt their debut album.
Originally posted by bnyced0:
Maybe it's ironic because it's NOT a debut album, I'm surprised one of the many Californians frequenting this board didn't chime in here, as the first ND album was 92, think I still have the cassette in storage somewhere.
[/b]
just because i'm from west va doesn't make me completely retarded, just slightly. hence my entire statement around 'tragic kingdom' so really bnyced0 read the thread first... :D
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by bnyced0:
Maybe it's ironic because it's NOT a debut album, I'm surprised one of the many Californians frequenting this board didn't chime in here, as the first ND album was 92, think I still have the cassette in storage somewhere.
You mean like right here when Miss P started the conversation on No Doubt and I started the tangent?
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by miss pretentious:
it's too bad no doubt's tragic kingdom wasn't their debut. or else that would have been my vote.
I was going to say the same, but did anybody on the board besides me, own No Doubt S/T before Tragic Kingdom came out?
Wait, does anybody even own Tragic Kingdom? [/b]
Oh, the irony. [/b]
Yep, that would be it :cool:
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Originally posted by amnesiac:
How about Rage Against the Machine?
If there is a proletariat revolution in the US before 2012, this album will undoubtedly get my vote.
Otherwise, they are more likely to be on the cover of Rolling Stone when their founding is exposed as a Record Company plot to sell records.
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Originally posted by miss pretentious:
Originally posted by xneverwherex:
no worries - us californians are ahead of the curve! but yes - it was stated in the thread it wasnt their debut album.
Originally posted by bnyced0:
Maybe it's ironic because it's NOT a debut album, I'm surprised one of the many Californians frequenting this board didn't chime in here, as the first ND album was 92, think I still have the cassette in storage somewhere.
[/b]
just because i'm from west va doesn't make me completely retarded, just slightly. hence my entire statement around 'tragic kingdom' so really bnyced0 read the thread first... :o
-
Originally posted by xneverwherex:
no worries - us californians are ahead of the curve! but yes - it was stated in the thread it wasnt their debut album.
Originally posted by bnyced0:
Maybe it's ironic because it's NOT a debut album, I'm surprised one of the many Californians frequenting this board didn't chime in here, as the first ND album was 92, think I still have the cassette in storage somewhere.
[/b]
Ok, now that I've gotten everyone's blood flowing,
"DHC from RICHMOND"
?????????????, CA right?
I would've said Berkely, and they were made up of some of the remnants of Operation Ivy before they bailed but they were super solid and I hated to see them go.
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
I mean, I realize everyone is trying to score indie-cred points by naming obscure acts, but you have to give props to the titans of the scene, hipster props be damned.
aphex twin - selected ambient works 85-92 (if you discount the EPs)
plastikman - sheet one (ignoring f.u.s.e.)
hallucinogen - twisted
daft punk - homework
shpongle - are you shpongled?
that last one, which no one other than azaghal has probably ever heard of, redefined downbeat/dub/chillout. it's impact on the genre was revolutionary... then again, the genre is tiny :)
-
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
There wasn't anything particularly influential about Tragic Kingdom. Sublime & 311 were already running with the "ska thing" that exploded in the mid-90s.
I'll make a deal with you: I won't lecture you on rap and hip-hop if you promise to not give any more lectures on Mid-90's ska. Mid-90's ska for the rest of America was late 80's for the fine folks in So Cal, and yes, while it was pinched from Marley and the Specials from the late 70's early 80's UK revival, it's evident by your inclusion of 311 in the same conversation as No Doubt and Sublime that you're way out of your league. Fishbone, I would have given you, but 311 is unforgivable. Love it or hate it, No Doubt are credited with bringing Ska to the 90's mainstream music scene, not 311 or Sublime. [/b]
here i thought save ferris was the key band in all of this.
-
[/QUOTE]I was going to say the same, but did anybody on the board besides me, own No Doubt S/T before Tragic Kingdom came out?
[/QB][/QUOTE]
I'm not from California, and didn't buy the album, but I saw No Doubt open for Pato Banton in Fall 92 or 93. We never forgot the smoking hot singer of that band that opened for Pato.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
I was going to say the same, but did anybody on the board besides me, own No Doubt S/T before Tragic Kingdom came out?
no, but i was quite thankful for that release since it allowed 120 minutes to stop playing that god-awful video for trapped in a box.
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Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
Originally posted by you be pickup:
On Avery Island? Get the fuck outta here, Julian.
That was a complete joke. My serious answers are Ten and Give Up. [/b]
Yeah, I thought it was. Sometimes it's hard to pickup on sarcasm in internet postings. But Give Up? Get the fuck outta here, Julian.
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
Without diving too far in, you wouldn't say The Chronic fits that decription????
Straight Outta Compton was one I forgot. The Chronic is bested by that.
Originally posted by Mobius:
I don't follow the logic of this at all.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that a lot of people are naming albums that are very good, and some of the best of their time, but they aren't ones that truly mattered.
-
rage against the machine
pearl jam - ten
daft punk - homework
basement jaxx - remedy
deftones - adrenaline
Korn
Marilyn Manson - Portrait of an American Family
the Strokes - Is This It?
Stone Temple Pilots - Core
the Streets - Original Pirate Material
Tenacious D
some of my favorite debuts
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<img src="http://www.abc.net.au/goldcoast/stories/Tori_Amos_m975825.gif" alt=" - " />
-
-
Originally posted by you be pickup:
But Give Up? Get the fuck outta here, Julian.
Did you even read my defense of this choice on page 1 or 2? I think my argument at least has some merit.
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I'm going to second The Arcade Fire's Funeral. I'm surprised it took until page 2 before someone mentioned it.
<img src="http://www.yawam.info/images/albums/grandes/arcade_fire-funeral.png" alt=" - " />
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<img src="http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g16/beetsnotbeats/R-231483-1171155470.jpg" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g16/beetsnotbeats/R-231483-1171155483.jpg" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g16/beetsnotbeats/R-231483-1171155497.jpg" alt=" - " />
Originally released in 1989. (http://www.pfony.com/page1.html)
"It's the greatest thing I've ever heard."
- Hal Willner, producer, Saturday Night Live
"Brilliant production... the most interesting album of 1989."
- Jens Kohler, Ice
"John Oswald has achieved the pinnacle of the 1980's cut-and-paste aesthetic. Spectacular Frankenstein monsters. One of the most adventurous and musically rewarding experiments to emerge from the age of digital sampling."
(TOP TEN LIST OF THE '80s) - Derk Richardson, San Francisco Bay Guardian
"Plunderphonics is as mesmerizing and synapse-frying a piece of aural vandalism as has ever been committed."
- Byron Coley, Spin
"It's a masterpiece...the best new release in five years."
- John Zorn: composer, NYC
"Plunderphonic is my favorite release of the year. This art is more radical in its social and political implications than the introduction of the electric guitar."
- Henry Kaiser, East Bay Express
"Startling. [The] year's hippest banned record."
- Richard Gehr, Creem
"It's beautiful."
- Bill Frisell: guitarist, Hoboken NJ
"It's great."
- Al Kooper: musian/producer, LA
"One of the most brilliant things I've ever heard."
- John Wiggins, HBO,NYC
"For the moment, John Oswald is a solo movement, the most exciting school of one in music."
- Milo Miles, Village Voice
"Great! If there was a way I could release this I would in a minute.
- Robert Hurwitz, executive producer, Nonesuch Records
"I've been playing [the Plunderphonics CD] for everyone who will listen and thus far the response has been 100%. They all want copies."
- Phil Perkins: sound designer, SF
"It's great! It's fab! I love it! I've played it for lots of people, whose reactions range from knocked out to completely befuddled. I guess this means you've created a masterpiece (or two or three or four - my favorites keep shifting)."
- Matt Groening: cartoonist. Life In Hell & The Simpsons
"Plunderphonics is recreational savagery... A consistently brilliant record."
- David Toop, London Times
"It tickled me...It's a celebration."
- Bob Krasnow: president, Elektra Records
"The Gravity's Rainbow of recordings. Complex, hilarious, moving and revealing."
- anon., Boston
"Mr. Oswald flew past the level of mere sampling. He has taken sampling fifty times beyond what we've come to expect."
- Brian Robertson: president,Canadian Recording Indusry Ass.
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Not her debut. Also, even though I think it's a bit of a stretch, I'd agree that Julian's vote for Give Up has some merit. I don't think it should be mentioned in the same breathe as some of these discs, but I can see what he's going for.
Funeral, on the other hand, is just ridiculous. What impact has that had other than to get indie nerds and bloggers salivating?
Originally posted by ixkpd-bk:
<img src="http://www.abc.net.au/goldcoast/stories/Tori_Amos_m975825.gif" alt=" - " />
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Y Kant Tori Read is with a band, so I think Little Earthquakes counts as a debut.
Originally posted by nkotb:
Not her debut. Also, even though I think it's a bit of a stretch, I'd agree that Julian's vote for Give Up has some merit. I don't think it should be mentioned in the same breathe as some of these discs, but I can see what he's going for.
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Didn't know that. Another interesting bit of trivia (according to Wikipedia), is that future GNR drummer Matt Sorum. It's all come full circle.
That being said, do you really think Little Earthquakes counts?
Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
Y Kant Tori Read is with a band, so I think Little Earthquakes count as a debut.
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Originally posted by nkotb:
Funeral, on the other hand, is just ridiculous. What impact has that had other than to get indie nerds and bloggers salivating?
Amen.
Two other points:
1.) I thought this discussion was framed American. If we are to include the UK, I'd say "The Stone Roses" may be even bigger than "Appetite." I really don't think "The Stone Roses" was very big (in any sense) in America, except with hipsters. Actually, "Second Coming" sold more in America than "The Stone Roses." Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
2.) Am I the only one who thinks that Gwen Stefani was MUCH more attractive in her early years ("No Doubt" album-era)? Once "Tragic Kingdom" came out she started to look like some bizarre Muppet/Troll doll combination. That's what you get for marrying a queen.
Brian
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Nope, though it's a great debut.
Originally posted by nkotb:
That being said, do you really think Little Earthquakes counts?
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Fugazi's first EP
And if Soundgarden had not realized that piece of shit "Ultramega OK" beforehand, "Louder Than Love" would be high on my list, same with Jane's Addiction (though the XXX LP is definitely listenable, it's just not in the league of "Nothings Shocking").
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Originally posted by wanderlust featuring j. marshmallow:
Y Kant Tori Read is with a band, so I think Little Earthquakes counts as a debut.
Originally posted by nkotb:
Not her debut. Also, even though I think it's a bit of a stretch, I'd agree that Julian's vote for Give Up has some merit. I don't think it should be mentioned in the same breathe as some of these discs, but I can see what he's going for.
[/b]
Y Kant Tori Read is a solo album, one that contained studio musicians perhaps but still a solo album.
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I'm certainly no expert, but according to Wikipedia, Y Kant Tori Read was a band that featured Tori.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Kant_Tori_Read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Kant_Tori_Read)
I was surprised to read that too. Then I remembered that I didn't care.
Originally posted by TheREALHunter:
Y Kant Tori Read is a solo album, one that contained studio musicians perhaps but still a solo album.
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The original Y Kant Tori Read CD can fetch hundreds of dollars. I only have a bootleg copy of it.
Originally posted by nkotb:
I'm certainly no expert, but according to Wikipedia, Y Kant Tori Read was a band that featured Tori.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Kant_Tori_Read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_Kant_Tori_Read)
I was surprised to read that too. Then I remembered that I didn't care.
Originally posted by TheREALHunter:
Y Kant Tori Read is a solo album, one that contained studio musicians perhaps but still a solo album.
[/b]
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If I recall, the argument against Weezer's "Blue Album" was that it had no lasting impact. Two points: (1) it was emo before there was emo (2) they made it cool to be nerds/geeks well before the geek-cool wave of the late 90's/early 00's.
Knowing that we're looking for debut albums that sold millions, altered (at least somewhat) the direction of popular music, and was critically well-received, I offer one more suggestion...
<img src="http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HT8GP93DL._SS500_.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by dhinojwala:
(2) they made it cool to be nerds/geeks well before the geek-cool wave of the late 90's/early 00's.
<img src="http://a0.vox.com/6a00c2251c04e5604a00c2251e7c188fdb-320pi" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by bnyced0:
Originally posted by xneverwherex:
no worries - us californians are ahead of the curve! but yes - it was stated in the thread it wasnt their debut album.
Originally posted by bnyced0:
Maybe it's ironic because it's NOT a debut album, I'm surprised one of the many Californians frequenting this board didn't chime in here, as the first ND album was 92, think I still have the cassette in storage somewhere.
[/b]
Ok, now that I've gotten everyone's blood flowing,
"DHC from RICHMOND"
?????????????, CA right?
I would've said Berkely, and they were made up of some of the remnants of Operation Ivy before they bailed but they were super solid and I hated to see them go. [/b]
yeah sorry it was meant to be obvious that it was richmond, CA since i had mentioned california ska-quake. all cali bands. had read somewhere awhile back they were from RICHMOND, CA. but apparently berkeley is more correct.
all my friends wanted to be just like elyse. and esp have her voice.
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Originally posted by nkotb:
Funeral, on the other hand, is just ridiculous. What impact has that had other than to get indie nerds and bloggers salivating?
Thank you. I was gonna pipe up on that, but I wanted some backing first.
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Originally posted by dhinojwala:
If I recall, the argument against Weezer's "Blue Album" was that it had no lasting impact. Two points: (1) it was emo before there was emo (2) they made it cool to be nerds/geeks well before the geek-cool wave of the late 90's/early 00's.
Knowing that we're looking for debut albums that sold millions, altered (at least somewhat) the direction of popular music, and was critically well-received, I offer one more suggestion...
<img src="http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HT8GP93DL._SS500_.jpg" alt=" - " />
Emo before there was emo? Uh...no.
1. Power-pop (what Weezer plays) is not emo
2. Emo began and ended with DC bands like Rites of Spring, Embrace, Rain, etc. the term has been revived to lump in some fruity punk bands with a screaming lead singer but it's a bad imitation.
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Originally posted by Mobius:
I think of Reasonable Doubt as an album made by someone with talent who wanted to make Ready To Die, but maybe w/out the vulnerability.
I beg to differ, my friend.
Exhibit A: Number One Rule For Your Set/Wanna Live Your Life/Gotta Learn To Live With Regrets (http://www.mediafire.com/?cxyylbmd1gn)
That shit's as vulnerable as chicks at Lilith Fair, fam.
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Seconding the comment on Weezer (Blue) is that "My Name Is Jonas" is considered by many the proto Emo anthem. In fact I think it stood the test of time in sense of popularity more so then the hit singles.
How about
Air - "Safari Moon" which opened doors for the French Pop scene and to some extend downtempo lounge music.
Fatboy Slim - "Better Living Through Chemistry" helped bring electronica into the mainstream.
Underworld gets knocked out as "Dubnobasswithmyheadman" is the groups third release but first with it's most significant sound and line-up.
Jellyfish - "Bellybutton" and Myracle Brah - "Life on Planet Eartsnop" which had great impact on me :D
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Originally posted by xneverwherex:
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
There wasn't anything particularly influential about Tragic Kingdom. Sublime & 311 were already running with the "ska thing" that exploded in the mid-90s.
I'll make a deal with you: I won't lecture you on rap and hip-hop if you promise to not give any more lectures on Mid-90's ska. Mid-90's ska for the rest of America was late 80's for the fine folks in So Cal, and yes, while it was pinched from Marley and the Specials from the late 70's early 80's UK revival, it's evident by your inclusion of 311 in the same conversation as No Doubt and Sublime that you're way out of your league. Fishbone, I would have given you, but 311 is unforgivable. Love it or hate it, No Doubt are credited with bringing Ska to the 90's mainstream music scene, not 311 or Sublime. [/b]
some people just shouldnt discuss ska music. [/b]
Ummmmmmm, hey X. I'm assuming your last statement was meant for me. You obviously didn't read MY statement very well, did you???? If you're gonna be indignant about it at least read my whole statement first. I simply stated what was responsible for breaking ska into the mainstream. YOU are a cultured music listener. That statement really didn't apply to you, as you obviously were ahead of the curve much like Smackie. Just read my WHOLE statement thoroughly. It's self-explanatory. Do you think I'd be stupid enough to say that Sublime & especially 311 are the torchbearers for ska??? On this board of all places???? That'd be like me saying Kelly Clarkson is a hard rock artist. Come the fuck on. Seriously.
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
And of course, I can't hear it here. But I am well aware of KROQ
I think you can stream it online, right?
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<img src="http://www.dongrays.com/kate-bush/images/tki.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
Originally posted by xneverwherex:
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by TheDirector217:
There wasn't anything particularly influential about Tragic Kingdom. Sublime & 311 were already running with the "ska thing" that exploded in the mid-90s.
I'll make a deal with you: I won't lecture you on rap and hip-hop if you promise to not give any more lectures on Mid-90's ska. Mid-90's ska for the rest of America was late 80's for the fine folks in So Cal, and yes, while it was pinched from Marley and the Specials from the late 70's early 80's UK revival, it's evident by your inclusion of 311 in the same conversation as No Doubt and Sublime that you're way out of your league. Fishbone, I would have given you, but 311 is unforgivable. Love it or hate it, No Doubt are credited with bringing Ska to the 90's mainstream music scene, not 311 or Sublime. [/b]
some people just shouldnt discuss ska music. [/b]
Ummmmmmm, hey X. I'm assuming your last statement was meant for me. You obviously didn't read MY statement very well, did you???? If you're gonna be indignant about it at least read my whole statement first. I simply stated what was responsible for breaking ska into the mainstream. YOU are a cultured music listener. That statement really didn't apply to you, as you obviously were ahead of the curve much like Smackie. Just read my WHOLE statement thoroughly. It's self-explanatory. Do you think I'd be stupid enough to say that Sublime & especially 311 are the torchbearers for ska??? On this board of all places???? That'd be like me saying Kelly Clarkson is a hard rock artist. Come the fuck on. Seriously. [/b]
yeesh! you need to chill out seriously. it was written in the course of that whole discussion.
some of us do work and cant reply 2 secs after they read something. that response was written when smackie said his thing - but couldnt post for other reasons till way later.
on that note - im slammed!
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Originally posted by TheDirector217:
Originally posted by Mobius:
I think of Reasonable Doubt as an album made by someone with talent who wanted to make Ready To Die, but maybe w/out the vulnerability.
I beg to differ, my friend.
Exhibit A: Number One Rule For Your Set/Wanna Live Your Life/Gotta Learn To Live With Regrets (http://www.mediafire.com/?cxyylbmd1gn)
That shit's as vulnerable as chicks at Lilith Fair, fam. [/b]
I suppose so - although I think its more 'human' than 'vulnerable' b/c I think the idea is that he'll win (and you the listener can win too) despite his (your) regrets/obstacles. But again, I think he took his gameplan from B.I.G. Sure there are differences, but I think he recognized that he could do what B.I.G. did (and sold $$$millions doing) - but w/ more of an athlete's perspective (overcome obstacles, train, win). Reasonable Doubt is great of course. I'm just saying that it seems like B.I.G. opened the door that he walked through (probably along w/ Illmatic). Like a good athlete, or a good anything, he recognized who was the best (and who the people worth watching were responding to) and tried to emulate them.
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honorable mention:
<img src="http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TzV5o-CkL._SS500_.jpg" alt=" - " />