930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: bellenseb on February 17, 2004, 02:03:00 pm
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Now that DCCD is gone, will we ever see another indie shop in DC again? How about one in the U street area, now that we have three clubs there, with the potential for in-stores?
Sure, I can cobble together most things I want through Olssons and Melody, but I'd love a good indie-focused shop with a strong used section and sense of community. Spaceboy in Philly is a great example of a relatively small shop that has great stock, used, new, vinyl, video, mags, etc. Could a store succeed if it was very smartly run, or are the realities of the industry and DC rents and population too much for any store, no matter how great?
I like Revolution, especially the in-stores they are getting, but the focus seems more mainstream there.
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Ollsons and Melody are both independent stores.
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my guess is, looking at all the small record stores that have closed, you would have to be, pretty brave/ foolhardy/have a fantastic new concept to open another.
The best idea is a record store in the ground floor that has its own bar and concert space on the second floor, but there is already a surfeit of concert space in DC, especially of the small variety. I think velvet lounge, DC9 and the blackcat backbar are already too much.
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I have often thought of opening a CD store of just used stuff and other random stuff, except it would be more like a flea market type deal. where a bunch of collectors could get together and split the rent and set up a section for thier stuff, and sell stuff seperately.
That way one person wouldnt be taking so much risk or doing so much work.
but then again, i am broke. so fuck it.
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Revolution Records does look pretty mainstream, but what's not to like?
http://www.revolution-records.com/ (http://www.revolution-records.com/)
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This is both an interesting and timely topic. I just this weekend met and talked with the owner of Revolution records. It is a cool place, but a little too 'something'. Not sure mainstream is the right word. I could cetainly be bigger, but having the listening rooms, and the in-store appearences is very cool.
I agree with Markie, having a store with a performance space/bar/coffee house would be the best option. Sort of a Galaxy hut next to a CD store.
In my grand scheme for BigYawn (and never having to work a desk job again) I have begun comtemplating what it would take to even begin thinking about such a thing. Course, I too am broke.
The inherent problem with having a store that is uniquely indie, is that there are not enough people who buy indie to keep it open. You have to sell mainstream CDs. And in a city like DC, you have to sell a lot of Hip-hop and R+B, thats obvious by looking at the population breakdowns.
Anyone have any expereince with this sort of venture? Or has $50,000 they want to throw my way?
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sounds to me that nw dc is too expensive for a proper used record store to exist. maybe somewhere like balston or old town alexandria, but out there can be pricey too. cd cellar in falls church seems to be doing pretty well, and they hardly ever have anything i am looking for.
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Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
cd cellar in falls church seems to be doing pretty well, and they hardly ever have anything i am looking for.
I never walk out of there with less than five CDs.
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There's an indie store in alexandria above the mcdonalds on king street.
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
my guess is, looking at all the small record stores that have closed, you would have to be, pretty brave/ foolhardy/have a fantastic new concept to open another.
The best idea is a record store in the ground floor that has its own bar and concert space on the second floor, but there is already a surfeit of concert space in DC, especially of the small variety. I think velvet lounge, DC9 and the blackcat backbar are already too much.
actually go! disc, i think that was it's name, tried this at the old black cat several years ago and it didn't work out...
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Redsock,
Maybe you're right that DC can't support a store that is focused on indie, but then again, Smash! focuses pretty much on punk, and is in high-rent Georgetown, and is still around. So, it can't be impossible. And of course a store could diversify, sell some mainstream, r&b, rap, etc. as well as DVDs, while still maintaining an excellent indie section and attitude. Look at all the great Plan 9 stores (I wish Plan 9 would open in NOVA).
Again, I liked Revolution, but given the parking situation I can't imagine going there very often. The selection was relatively diverse (they had some random stuff I didn't expect) but I couldn't imagine flipping through the entire store every time just to see the handful of used new arrivals they got in.
I just miss stores that are explicitly for music lovers.
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I've always really liked the Sound Garden in Baltimore. That's a fantastic record store. And of course Rasputin's and Amoeba in San Francisco are amazing. I like Off the Record in San Diego, too. Not to mention the tons of stores in NYC. Amoeba at Haight/Ashbury is the ultimate though. I spent $150 and could have kept going the last time I was there. You can't walk into just ANY record store and walk out with "Boink!" by the Replacements for 17 bucks! I was stunned.
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Originally posted by J'Mal:
There's an indie store in alexandria above the mcdonalds on king street.
Now!
Okay selection of new stuff, but it's on the pricey side. Lame selection of used.
I've always loved Princeton Record Exchange (http://www.prex.com/).
Never been to Amoeba.
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
cd cellar in falls church seems to be doing pretty well, and they hardly ever have anything i am looking for.
I never walk out of there with less than five CDs. [/b]
can never find anything specific i am looking for. no enon, no black heart procession on saturday afternoon. awesome for local stuff, but not even in the league of soundgarden in baltimore or like 5 stores back in pittsburgh. and dc has a much better scene than pgh.
will have to try the place in old town
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Originally posted by bunnyman:
And of course Rasputin's and Amoeba in San Francisco are amazing. I like Off the Record in San Diego, too. Not to mention the tons of stores in NYC. Amoeba at Haight/Ashbury is the ultimate though. I spent $150 and could have kept going the last time I was there. You can't walk into just ANY record store and walk out with "Boink!" by the Replacements for 17 bucks! I was stunned.
but, in order to have such fantastic stores, with an amazing used selection, you have to have a (large?) population that is into that sort of music, which d.c. lacks, especially compared to nyc and the bay area. punk being a slight exception. i don't think there is the base support in this town for such store as amoeba, without sacrificing the essence of what makes that store great.
course, if ggw puts down a c note every week buying cds at such a store, then it could last a year or so. :)
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Probably no city outside NY or Chicago (or LA or SF) could support an amazing, huge store like Amoeba, but midsized cities like Pittsburgh (Paul's) and Milwaukee (Atomic) have fine indie shops.
Amoeba is almost better as a West Coast fantasy, since whenever I go I spend way too much.
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Probably no city outside NY or Chicago (or LA or SF) could support an amazing, huge store like Amoeba, but midsized cities like Pittsburgh (Paul's) and Milwaukee (Atomic) have fine indie shops.
Amoeba is almost better as a West Coast fantasy, since whenever I go I spend way too much.
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So why is it that sound garden is so successful? It's always crowded on the weekends (which granted isn't exactly a scientific assessment) hell, even atomic books in hampden has some nifty stuff (small music selection, but still good stuff).
Baltimore may have a larger percentage of people with those sorts of music tastes but I can't see it being significant enough to make a difference.
Does anyone know why exactly dccd closed? lack of customers? or lease issues? idle time books was forced to move out of its old place because the owners upped the lease on them (and got a bigger, nicer space a block away). it seems like owning a small business on 18th street right now is a bit of a pain in the ass. maybe the dccd owners just felt it wasn't worth it?
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Originally posted by skonster:
maybe the dccd owners just felt it wasn't worth it?
I think that may have been part of it.
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Originally posted by skonster:
maybe the dccd owners just felt it wasn't worth it?
I only visited DCCD a dozen times or so, but it always struck me as an unfriendly place. If I asked a question, the response was usually preceded by a heavy sigh -- as in, "well, I suppose I could look it up and see if we have it. But that causes me soooo much trouble."
Olssons selection is much worse, but at least they pretend to be happy to have customers in their store.
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If I asked a question, the response was usually preceded by a heavy sigh -- as in, "well, I suppose I could look it up and see if we have it. But that causes me soooo much trouble."
yeah I always found them to be elitist indie assholes - when I went in one day with my daughter I thought they were going to throw me out
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Originally posted by bellenseb:
Probably no city outside NY or Chicago (or LA or SF) could support an amazing, huge store like Amoeba, but midsized cities like Pittsburgh (Paul's) and Milwaukee (Atomic) have fine indie shops.
pittsburgh also has dave's, eide's, another place in the south side and one in the north hills that i can't remember the names of. all superior to anything i've seen in dc. and there isn't a scene there at all. both of the two best venues are closing
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Which venues in Pittsburgh are closing? I lived there in 2000 when Milvale was condemned...
Quiet Storm? Club Cafe? Laga?
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There were a couple people who were bad at DCCD but I never had a problem when the owner was working.
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It seems really hard to believe that D.C. doesn't have enough indie music fans to keep an big indie-friendly cd store running. I suppose the closest thing we have is CDepot in College Park. It would be great to have a place like CD Cellar (my favorite place to shop!) in D.C. I think there's two of them now in Northern Virgina...
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Originally posted by bellenseb:
Which venues in Pittsburgh are closing? I lived there in 2000 when Milvale was condemned...
Quiet Storm? Club Cafe? Laga?
laga and rosebud. metropol doesn't have shows anymore, either. i lived there most of my life until 2002. so many tours skipped pittsburgh, but so many of the good ones came to laga or rosebud. i want to say quiet storm is no more, but i'm not sure. there is a new place in milvale and the rex has been having (bad) shows.
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Originally posted by brennser:
If I asked a question, the response was usually preceded by a heavy sigh -- as in, "well, I suppose I could look it up and see if we have it. But that causes me soooo much trouble."
yeah I always found them to be elitist indie assholes - when I went in one day with my daughter I thought they were going to throw me out [/b]
yeah, as much as i liked (or wanted to like) DCCD, the extremely standoffish manner of nearly everyone that worked there was a total deterrent. it's like you had to have some special connection to an employee to be given a smile and friendly conversation. no wonder they went out of business?
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They were all always extra nice to me. :)
Just kidding. Actually, I prefer stores with standoffish clerks.
"Can I help you with something?"
Actually, no, you can't. I know my alphabet, so I think I'll be able to figure things out myself, thanks.
Originally posted by i do not heart winter:
Originally posted by brennser:
If I asked a question, the response was usually preceded by a heavy sigh -- as in, "well, I suppose I could look it up and see if we have it. But that causes me soooo much trouble."
yeah I always found them to be elitist indie assholes - when I went in one day with my daughter I thought they were going to throw me out [/b]
yeah, as much as i liked (or wanted to like) DCCD, the extremely standoffish manner of nearly everyone that worked there was a total deterrent. it's like you had to have some special connection to an employee to be given a smile and friendly conversation. no wonder they went out of business? [/b]
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I thought DCCD staff were snots, also. they would always look disdainfully at customers CDs. They made buying CDs about as pleasurable as buying porn and preparation H.
As for CDepot at College Park, it has some redeeming features, but on the face of it I think it is really horrible. There seems to be as much stuff in game exchange in a 10th of the real estate. Still, I guess it is the only CD store where I have seen the only ones on the shelves.
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Ok, so DCCD is gone, the local stores suck...what are we gonna do about it? We can bitch and moan, or we can try to change things. No, I'm the first to admit, I don't have a clue as to where one starts. But you need money, and a business plan.
I have a car, does that help?
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You have the car, now all you need are directions to Soundgarden.
Originally posted by redsock:
Ok, so DCCD is gone, the local stores suck...what are we gonna do about it? We can bitch and moan, or we can try to change things. No, I'm the first to admit, I don't have a clue as to where one starts. But you need money, and a business plan.
I have a car, does that help?
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Personally, I love the sad state of DC record shops. They help me to save money for more important things.
My trips to Soundgarden and CDepot are limited, so quite naturally I don't spend as much as I would if they were right next door. I do go to two CD Game Exchanges and shop the dollar racks. Get some good stuff, and sell some of it to Soundgarden or CDepot at a 300-500% profit.
Thus, the amount I spend on music is pretty minimal. Woohoo!
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ggw wrote re CD Cellar:
> I never walk out of there with less than five CDs.
A brilliant store! If I could get out there more often I would :) , but naturally I would spend spend spend. :)
Re: Off The Record in San Diego. Another cool place! I recall spending way too much in there as well. A cool shop to find 3" CD's (Depeche Mode and Nitzer Ebb among ones I scored - of course, those aren't indie, though). :)
Wherever an indie shop opens in D.C./if it eventually happens I will make the trek!
Cheers
DJ Medusa.
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I dont think a small record store is a viable business, that is why so many have closed.
you would be much better off opening a bar or a fru fru gift shoppe, especially the later on the Ust corridor. Its moving up in the world..... How many Starbucks and expensive condos?
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Originally posted by redsock:
Ok, so DCCD is gone, the local stores suck...what are we gonna do about it? We can bitch and moan, or we can try to change things. No, I'm the first to admit, I don't have a clue as to where one starts. But you need money, and a business plan.
I have a car, does that help?
Well sonick can probably help with some new release inventory (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).
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Originally posted by Medusa:
A cool shop to find 3" CD's (Depeche Mode and Nitzer Ebb among ones I scored - of course, those aren't indie, though). ;)
Are the dpeche mode CDs on MUTE?
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Which venues in Pittsburgh are closing? I lived there in 2000 when Milvale was condemned...
Quiet Storm? Club Cafe? Laga?
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
Originally posted by Medusa:
A cool shop to find 3" CD's (Depeche Mode and Nitzer Ebb among ones I scored - of course, those aren't indie, though). ;)
Are the depeche mode CDs on MUTE? [/b]
Well, you're right - in my post I meant indie in terms of not as well-known (D.M. being *very* well-known) so thanks for correcting me - I've a habit of talking in riddles at times/not making myself too clear. ;)
Cheers
DJ Medusa.
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you know, I never really had a problem with the DCCD staff...but then again, I'm a trendy young scenester, and I'd never buy anything Pitchfork gave less than an 8.5.
truth is, DCCD just barely made the cut with its pricing and selection anyway. Of course they were small - Amoeba in Berkeley is the absolute gold standard, and it's huge - and yet I love Other Music and Kim's in NY, Penguin and Rotate This in Toronto, the aforementioned Spaceboy in Philly etc etc etc...it's not impossible to run a small record store well.
That being said, Revolution just ain't cutting it...the selection is terrible as of now, and I can't see it getting much better. Cool space, though.
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Very few bricks-and-mortar stores are making money on CDs right now. Olsson's makes money on books. Tower is in bankruptcy. Kemp Mill closed down most of its stores. Any retailer will tell you that it's not if, but when (most say 5-7 yrs.), before all bricks-and-mortar stores are gone. DCCD was just barely breaking even, which isn't really motivation to keep a business going. Factors for the demise of retail include shitty records (but when has this not been true?), high prices (which are largely set by the labels, not the stores), online stores, big box (Best Buy, et al.) stores selling at below cost as loss leaders, and, above all, filetrading (the other DCCD is at a SUNY campus where there are no other record stores, and on some days there would be 0 sales), but the basic fact is that fewer and fewer people are buying CDs. Lowering prices (which, again, is really up to the labels, since most retailers only tack on $2-5 above their wholesale price) might help a little, but I don't think it will bring kids into stores to buy stuff they can get elsewhere for free.
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I don't think $19 for a cd is expensive at all, when you consider what you get...I mean $19 is two cans of boddies at the 930 and 20 minutes later you're peeing it out...GONE!~
Some people pay $25+ for a book that you tend to read once, cd's you play over and over...I say 'some' because have you noticed how many people sit around in B&N reading a book for an hour then walk out empty handed? That would piss me off if I ran a book store. It's like all the asians that hang out in the Starbucks next to B&N in Rockville, they get a glass of water, or if they want to splash out, a small coffee, then sit at a table for hours on end with their study books, while cash-paying customers can't find a seat after shelling out $5+ for a milky cup of something....off tangent rant there for a mo'...anyway, $19 for a cd isn't too bad if you put it in perspective.
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$19 aint much if you're a middle age guy buying 10 cd's a year of reissues from early 80's lp's.
Different story if you're a 20something trendy pullin in 30K a year and need to buy every freaking album pitchfork tells you you need to own.
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Originally posted by jpbelmondo:
Very few bricks-and-mortar stores are making money on CDs right now. Olsson's makes money on books.
And Olsson's Metro Center is closed!
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Originally posted by mankie:
Some people pay $25+ for a book that you tend to read once, cd's you play over and over...
Mank, my dad was in the book business. You don't want to know how few people buy hardback books m(it's less than 5% of the population; I'm tempted to say 2% buy two or more hardcovers in a year, but that may be a stale figure).
And nearly all of the independent bookstores outside of major cities have gone out of business as well (that was my dad's business, selling to independents). It's the same as the record stores -- the Barnes & Nobles, Borders, Wal-Marts forced them out. And this was *before* online sales got so prevalent. And you can't, for the most part, 'download' books for free.
What I fear is that, while I'm 36 and still buy plenty of CDs, I'm a dying breed. [Even in my early 20s, making $23K, I bought two to four CDs a month.] I don't have much interaction with teenagers, but I have a feeling that downloading is second nature so that, except for the rare must have, buying a CD seems just ludicrous.
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Originally posted by Rutherford J. Balls:
$19 aint much if you're a middle age guy buying 10 cd's a year of reissues from early 80's lp's.
Different story if you're a 20something trendy pullin in 30K a year and need to buy every freaking album pitchfork tells you you need to own.
If the 20'something crowd owned only 5 pairs of $120+ sneakers and $80 jeans made to look like a homeless bloke threw them out, and saved that $5 latte for just a Sunday treat.....I'm sure they could afford to buy a few $19 cd's now and again.
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I can agree with that.
Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by Rutherford J. Balls:
$19 aint much if you're a middle age guy buying 10 cd's a year of reissues from early 80's lp's.
Different story if you're a 20something trendy pullin in 30K a year and need to buy every freaking album pitchfork tells you you need to own.
If the 20'something crowd owned only 5 pairs of $120+ sneakers and $80 jeans made to look like a homeless bloke threw them out, and saved that $5 latte for just a Sunday treat.....I'm sure they could afford to buy a few $19 cd's now and again. [/b]
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I dont think you can blame downloading just yet.
CD sales have only declined afew percent, if at all.
It's just cheaper and easier to buy from Amazon.com. They always have what I want and it is always cheaper than the new prices at the local stores.
Buuuu Byyyyyyeeeeeeee local stores.
But I do think $19 -$20 is too much for a CD. I just wont buy them at that price. They are only $14 from CDwow.net
I think a $10 DVD or a softback book is much better value.
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Plan 9 just *opened* a new store. They're doing very well by all accounts. They have a good, diverse stock of new and used CDs, mainstream and indie, plus vinyl, dvd, trinkets, etc.
Maybe DCCD, which had an anemic selection of new CDs and a sad used section (Collective Soul for $8.99, anyone?) struggled, but I think a diverse and well-run store, in the right location, could thrive.
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All true, but has the internet even come to central/southern virginia yet? As soon as it does (after the power and phone lines go up), the downloading will begin, and same result.
Originally posted by bellenseb:
Plan 9 just *opened* a new store. They're doing very well by all accounts. They have a good, diverse stock of new and used CDs, mainstream and indie, plus vinyl, dvd, trinkets, etc.
Maybe DCCD, which had an anemic selection of new CDs and a sad used section (Collective Soul for $8.99, anyone?) struggled, but I think a diverse and well-run store, in the right location, could thrive.
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Re: dying breed --
Not to worry, most indie labels will still print up CDs -- bands have to have something to sell at shows -- just as many still print up vinyl, but look for the majors to get out of physical units as soon as they can make more money on downloads. Unless iTunes and similar sites are consistently patronized by the average music buyer, that probably will be in the form of a tax (though it won't be called that) on your ISP.
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Originally posted by bellenseb:
Plan 9 just *opened* a new store. They're doing very well by all accounts. They have a good, diverse stock of new and used CDs, mainstream and indie, plus vinyl, dvd, trinkets, etc.
Maybe DCCD, which had an anemic selection of new CDs and a sad used section (Collective Soul for $8.99, anyone?) struggled, but I think a diverse and well-run store, in the right location, could thrive.
where is this so-called "plan 9"?
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where is this so-called "revolution"?
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www.plan9music.com (http://www.plan9music.com)
They're all over central Virginia.