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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: vansmack on November 10, 2006, 01:04:00 pm
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Waxing Nostalgic on Veterans Day....
R.E.M. vs. U2
Who was the best rock band of the '80s?
By Dan Kois
Posted Thursday, Nov. 9, 2006, at 10:18 AM ET
You can tell a lot about a band by how they tell their own story. This fall, R.E.M. released And I Feel Fine, a collection of songs from their early years, 1982 to 1987. The deluxe two-disc edition comes with liner notes in which R.E.M.'s four founding members relate stories of the band's early years. As a one-time devoted fan, I devoured these 11 short pages of storytellingâ??a tiny window into the songs I'd spent so many hours rapturously listening to, obsessing over, and decoding.
In weighty contrast to this slim text is the just-released U2 by U2, a $40 coffee-table book that exhaustively recountsâ??in 352 pages of interviewsâ??the birth, struggles, and modern-day megasuccess of U2. Now that U2 has become America's spokesband for human dignity, it's difficult to remember that R.E.M., the quiet Georgians with the elliptical lyrics, once competed with U2 for the title of world's best rock band. With U2 triumphant and R.E.M. fading into near-obscurity, And I Feel Fine reminds listeners that R.E.M., not U2, made the most memorable music of the 1980s.
Throughout that decade and the early 1990s, a fierce rivalry existed between R.E.M. and U2â??not in real life, mind you, but in my head. Among certain floppy-haired music nerds in that era, you were either an R.E.M. person or a U2 person, and this R.E.M. person has spent the last five years in agony, watching my one-time heroes release several drab albums, while U2 famously announced they meant to matter againâ??and succeeded.
It's hard to imagine R.E.M. making a similar pronouncement, given the determination with which they pursued their off-center, Southern muses for so many years. For all of their ambition, in the 1980s, R.E.M.'s music was willfully obscure. Much has been made of Michael Stipe's mumbly lyrics, but it wasn't that you couldn't make out the words of early R.E.M. songsâ??you just didn't know what the hell they meant. Neither did the band. "I still have no idea what that song is about," Stipe writes about "Pilgrimage," and bassist Mike Mills says the same about "Gardening at Night" (while drummer Bill Berry claims it's based on a euphemism for peeing along the side of the road during an all-night drive). The lyrics could mean anything, and therefore they meant everything, weighted as they were with mystery, resonance, and passion. "It's not necessarily what we meant," writes Mills, "but whatever you think." A friend once gave his sister, for her birthday in 1988, a complete collection of R.E.M. lyrics, painstakingly hand-transcribed from repeated listens to the songs. Were they right? It hardly mattered.
Even R.E.M.'s "political" songs of the era, like "Fall on Me" or "Exhuming McCarthy," are tricky to parse. "Fall on Me" could maybe be about acid rain, or maybe air pollution in general, or maybe, uh, missile defense? Whereas U2's political songs of the 1980s are a little easier to work out: "Pride (In the Name of Love)" is about Martin Luther King Jr., for example, and "Sunday, Bloody Sunday" is about Bloody Sunday. Stirring as those songs are, there's very little a listener can bring to them; they are Bono's take, not yours, unlike "Fall on Me," which, for me, in 1987, was a deeply personal song about the crushing whatever of existence.
When U2's songs weren't on-the-nose political anthems, they were vague but heroically upliftingâ??filled with signifiers but signifying nothing. Whereas R.E.M. songs, drenched in Southern detail, allusive and elusive, sounded like fables or folk wisdom, U2's majestic uplift often felt like the outtakes of a melodically gifted youth-group minister.
There's a charming modesty in R.E.M.'s liner-note stories of how they learned to create these songs. Mills devotes paragraphs to explaining why it was fun to play bass within the framework of Peter Buck's guitar. And in the notes on the collection's best new track, a slowed-down version of "Gardening at Night," the band explains how, struggling with the song in the studio, they tried playing it slowlyâ??to see if, in Mills' words, "it might hold up well with a softer treatment." Unlike most previously unreleased demos, this version is a treasure: The intricacies of Mills and Buck's interplay at a slower paceâ??overlaid by Stipe's falsetto and supported by Berry's expressive drummingâ??reveal new beauty behind the familiar drive of the original.
In the studio, R.E.M. was tentative and exploratory, while U2 was as straightforwardly ambitious as a band could be. "We're going to make the big music," says Bono, in U2 by U2, about the band's mindset leading up to the recording of 1984's The Unforgettable Fire. "That's who we are. ... Big ideas, big themes, big sound."
Live, the two bands were markedly different. U2 By U2 is filled with stories of Bono climbing the stage rigging and leaping into the audience at shows. Contrast that willful courting ofâ??and connection toâ??an audience with Stipe hiding behind the drum kit on David Letterman's show in 1983, or, in 1987, telling a story about the origins of "Life and How to Live It" that just adds to the song's curiosity.
"There's nothing like being at Number One," Bono says in U2 by U2. "It's just better than Number Two." In the early 1990s, both bands were Number One: U2 with Achtung Baby and "One," R.E.M. with Out of Time and "Losing My Religion." By the late 1990s, both bands were in career lulls: U2's dabbling in electronica with Zooropa and Pop had turned off many hard-core fans. R.E.M.'s Berry had amicably left the commercially floundering band after suffering an aneurysm onstage during a concert.
Without Berry, R.E.M. has recorded three quiet, unimpressive albums. Meanwhile, U2 is on top of the rock heap againâ??a brand as much as a band, representing both sincerity and success. Just check out their Successories-ready aphorisms in U2 by U2: "I always thought the job was to be as great as you could be," says Bono. "If it is not absolutely the best it can be, why bother?" says bassist Adam Clayton. And that's just in the flap copy!
Either you loved U2, or you liked them fine. Either you loved R.E.M., or you hated them. The delicacy at the heart of R.E.M.'s 1980s albums fostered introspection and brotherhood among those of us who loved them in those years: introspection, because the songs pushed the listener inward, finding significance in every line; brotherhood, because we had to band together to defend our heroes against the unfeeling jerks who found R.E.M. precious and maddeningly opaque. I assumed, of course, that those jerks were U2 fans.
There never really was a rivalry, of course. In 1992, members of the two groups combined to perform a sweet version of "One" at MTV's Inaugural Ball. Despite all of my righteous teenage anger on R.E.M.'s behalf, U2 and R.E.M. were entirely friendly. Bono even discusses Stipe in U2 by U2: "Michael Stipe's friendship means more to me than I can ever tell you," he says on Page 162. Then, he doesn't mention Stipe's name again in the book.
Slate Mag (http://www.slate.com/id/2153184/?GT1=8805)
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i don't like u2 and i'd love to punch bono in the face. that'd make my year.
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Bono, Tax Avoider (http://www.slate.com/id/2152580)
The hypocrisy of U2.
By Timothy Noah
Posted Tuesday, Oct. 31, 2006, at 6:43 PM ET
A familiar paradox about leftist celebrities in the entertainment industry is that their embrace of progressivism almost never includes a wholehearted embrace of progressive taxation, i.e., the principle that the richer you get, the larger the percentage of your income you ought to pay in taxes. The latest example is U2's Bono, a committed and unusually sophisticated anti-poverty crusader who is taking surprisingly little heat for the decision by his band, U2, to relocate its music-publishing business from Ireland to the Netherlands in order to shelter its songwriting royalties from taxation.
The irony was stated in admirably stark terms by Bloomberg's Fergal O'Brien, who reported on Oct. 16:
Bono, the rock star and campaigner against Third World debt, is asking the Irish government to contribute more to Africa. At the same time, he's reducing tax payments that could help fund that aid.
"Preventing the poorest of the poor from selling their products while we sing the virtues of the free market â?¦ that's a justice issue," Bono said at a prayer breakfast attended by President Bush, Jordan's King Abdullah, and various members of Congress earlier this year. Preaching this sort of thing has made Bono a perennial candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize. He continued:
Holding children to ransom for the debts of their grandparents ... that's a justice issue. Withholding life-saving medicines out of deference to the Office of Patents ... that's a justice issue.
And relocating your business offshore in order to avoid paying taxes to the Republic of Ireland, where poverty is higher than in almost any other developed nation? Bono's hypocrisy seems even more naked when you consider that Ireland is a tax haven for artists. In June 2005, Bono (who was born in Dublin) told the Belfast Telegraph:
Our publishing, which is about one third of our income, we have tax breaks on, and that's great and that's encouraged us to stay in Ireland and if that changes, it's not going to affect anything for U2. ...
Six months later, Ireland's finance minister announced a ceiling of $319,000 on tax-free incomes, and six months after that, U2 opened its Amsterdam office. The relocation of U2's music publishing will halve taxes on the band's songwriting royalties, which already reportedly total $286 million. Although Bono has declined to comment on the move, the band's lead guitarist, David "the Edge" Evans, said, "Of course we're trying to be tax-efficient. Who doesn't want to be tax-efficient?'" Writing in the Observer, Nick Cohen noted that Evans "sounded as edgy as a plump accountant in the 19th hole."
U2's tax-shelter scheme caused an uproar in Ireland when the story broke there in August. But it's scarcely raised a ripple in the United States. A conservative would argue that's because in this country, we don't begrudge a man the opportunity to keep what he earns off the sweat of his brow (or even off the sweat of someone else's brow ) â?¦ even if that man spends half his time trying to goad governments into spending more to alleviate poverty. But a liberal could answer that in the United States, we are so used to seeing rich people avoid taxation that even a wealthy hypocrite who shelters his cash abroad can no longer qualify as news.
Timothy Noah is a senior writer at Slate.
Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2152580/ (http://www.slate.com/id/2152580/)
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To be brutally honest....if I was doing a list of my favorite bands of the 80's.........I very seriously doubt either one would be anywhere in the top 30....probably somewhere around 35 or 40....
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Bone-Oh is a poser and has a no talent band.
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Stylus Magazine did a similar comparison this week.
Article (http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/weekly_article/u2-vs-rem.htm)
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Originally posted by distance:
i don't like u2 and i'd love to punch bono in the face. that'd make my year.
Can I watch!? :D
I've never been a fan of either band myself but that's all besides the point. In fact, I'd defend them if I truly believed that they were on the right track. Bono is so lost in his own ego that he can't even see himself in his own mirror. I have no grudge against the rest of the band for anything other than maybe the tax thing. Just that balloon head Bono.
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Originally posted by RatBastard:
Bone-Oh is a poser and has a no talent band.
Word.
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REM put out some really great music. They also put out a great deal of utter crap. U2 put out one excellent album and a career of faux-earnest middling stuff.
REM easily wins this contest merely on the weight of their first three releases.
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You Bono haters are just jealous. MOST rock frontmen are egomaniacal jerks. And they don't have the success or do the good deeds that would even partially justify said behaviour.
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I own every R.E.M. album, while I only own two U2 albums. I think my choice between the two is clear.
That's not to say I don't like U2, I've just never been a big fan. Some of their earlier stuff is really good. And as arrogant and egotistical as Bono can be, I think he means well most of the time. He grates on the nerves from time to time, but overall I don't mind him.
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REM. U2 gets on my nerves.
Did anyone go to their last show at the Patriot Center? I called it the "REM sings the songs of your adolescence tour". It was fantastic.
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Originally posted by K8teebug:
Did anyone go to their last show at the Patriot Center? I called it the "REM sings the songs of your adolescence tour". It was fantastic.
I went and thought it was pretty good. I do miss Bill Berry though. I was seated stage left and saw Jim Courier standing on-stage behind the speakers. I guess he's a FOREM.
My vote goes to REM in this poll, mostly for the fact that I'm not as well versed in U2, but I never felt the urge to pursue their music too intensely (short of Joshua Tree, which I love.) I've tried listening to some of U2's other records, but short of a few songs I really liked, their albums as a whole were not something I listened to. Maybe because REM took up much of my free-time during the '80s/early '90s. Chronic Town, Murmur and basically up through Document...Wow, what a great string of records. Sigh.
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Among certain floppy-haired music nerds in that era, you were either an R.E.M. person or a U2 person...
Is that true? If anything, I seem to recall a lot of overlap between the R.E.M. fans and U2 fans back in the '80s and early '90s.
Without Berry, R.E.M. has recorded three quiet, unimpressive albums.
I strongly object to this statement. Is there anyone out there that agrees with me that New Adventures in Hi-Fi is one of R.E.M.'s very best albums? I'm totally serious. For me, it's the R.E.M. album I've come back to the most over the past 8 years or so. It has a real depth to it that grows with repeated listening. Artistically and lyrically, I think it's right up there with their best albums from the '80s. "New Test Leper" and "E-Bow the Letter" are stand-out tracks. Really, I love every track on that album. Now, I won't argue that the albums R.E.M. has released since then have been rather lackluster, but I'll defend New Adventures in Hi-Fi to my grave.
U2's dabbling in electronica with Zooropa and Pop had turned off many hard-core fans.
That's certainly true of me. I was a big U2 fan through Achtung Baby, but Zooropa and Pop completely and utterly alienated me as a fan. I hate those albums. I lost whatever faith I had in U2 when they released them. I barely listen to U2 at all any more as a result.
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Originally posted by K8teebug:
REM. U2 gets on my nerves.
Did anyone go to their last show at the Patriot Center? I called it the "REM sings the songs of your adolescence tour". It was fantastic.
Oh, yeah, I was there! I completely agree that that was a fantastic, enjoyable, wonderfully satisfying concert. Best show I've been to at the Patriot Center.
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Originally posted by K8teebug:
REM. U2 gets on my nerves.
Did anyone go to their last show at the Patriot Center? I called it the "REM sings the songs of your adolescence tour". It was fantastic.
I was there. Awesome show, I had a really great time at that one. We came down that night without tickets, and when we got to the box office we found out they'd opened up a bunch of really great seats just a few hours before the show. We were at the back of the first floor section on the left, I believe, so we had a great view. That show rekindled my love for R.E.M. (I hadn't listened to them for a while). That was also the first time I'd heard Pete Yorn; we thought he was a really good opener.
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Originally posted by Darth Ed:
Without Berry, R.E.M. has recorded three quiet, unimpressive albums.
I strongly object to this statement. Is there anyone out there that agrees with me that New Adventures in Hi-Fi is one of R.E.M.'s very best albums? [/b]
I'd say it's their last really good album. Definitely my favorite WB record. I wouldn't call it one of their "very best" though.
And Bill Berry is on that one.
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I agree with the original post that the indecipherability of REM's music is what made it special. It definitely felt like the soundtrack to my life over the period that Chronic Town, Murmur, Reckoning, and Fables of the Reconstruction were current.
After that point, they had a few good moments, but for the most part, once it was possible to understand Michael Stipe it just stopped being interesting.
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Originally posted by Bombay Chutney:
And Bill Berry is on that one.
Oh, duh. I'm not sure how I got mixed up on that. I feel so embarrassed. :eek:
New Adventures in Hi-Fi also their last album with producer Scott Litt. That might be as much responsible for the perceived decline in their subsequent albums as the absence of Bill Berry.
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I also saw REM at the Patriot center, and it was a very memorable concert. They even gave shout outs to the 9:30 club, reminiscing about playing there in the early 80's.
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after the War album U2 went downhill as far as I am concerned... they haven't matched anything that close since (IMHO).
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as far as R.E.M. goes they have made fantastic albums, and still have made some good material even after Berry's departure.
so my vote goes to R.E.M. on this one no contest.
R.E.M. albums everyone should own:
Murmur, Monster, Document.
Personal fav... Document.
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Yeah, Murmur is great and all, but I just love the harmonies on Reckoning. "Seven Chinese Brothers" and "Harborcoat" are just divine. Everyone should own Reckoning, I think.
I really like Monster, too, but I don't think it quite makes the short list of "R.E.M. albums everyone should own." It's not as consistently good as either New Adventures in Hi-Fi or Automatic for the People, in my opinion. "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" is one rocking track though.
My personal favorite R.E.M. album has changed quite often over time, but Lifes Rich Pageant was probably my favorite for the longest total amount of time.
My list of R.E.M.'s best albums:
Murmur
Reckoning
Document
Lifes Rich Pageant
Automatic for the People
New Adventures in Hi-Fi
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I'm pretty sure this debate only happens in America.
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REM was always a favorite. My friend's older brothers listened to them as they once said "before they were popular". They also did get me really into The Smiths. I was in the 5th or 6th grade (or maybe younger).
REM was also the first "real" concert I had been to. 1989 - green tour. the first concert without a parent at 15. I was quite excited, except looking back The Shoreline was a huge mass of people. And my aunt and uncle werent impressed when my cousin and i walked out of there reeking of pot. oh the joys of contact highs.
I was never a U2 fan, but some of their albums are pretty genius. But I'll take Reckoning any day over anything U2 put out. Harborcoat was always one of my favorite songs.
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Originally posted by Darth Ed:
I strongly object to this statement. Is there anyone out there that agrees with me that New Adventures in Hi-Fi is one of R.E.M.'s very best albums?
one of my favorite post-'document' albums, but not one of the "very best" ... 'leave' is definitely one of my favorite REM songs ... pretty incredible though how they recorded that whole album during soundchecks of the Monster tour...