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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 03:46:00 pm

Title: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 03:46:00 pm: Kelly Osbourne Nixes England Updated 11:29 PST Thu, Feb 13 2003LONDON (AP) _ Rock scion Kelly Osbourne pulled out of a British awards show Thursday because of fears terrorists might attack London, her British publicist said. Osbourne, pink-haired daughter of heavy metal legend Ozzy Osbourne, had been scheduled to perform at the NME awards later Thursday, but became concerned after seeing images of tanks and soldiers patrolling near London's Heathrow Airport, said spokeswoman Naz Ahmed. Britain has deployed hundreds of soldiers at Heathrow, Europe's busiest airport, and beefed up security at airports and other sites this week after police warned that al-Qaida might try attacking London during this week's Muslim festival of Eid al-Adha. "Kelly's parents were in New York on Sept. 11 when the Twin Towers came down so you can imagine how they feel," Ahmed said. "The decision wasn't taken lightly and Kelly has thought long and hard about it. "She is upset that she can't come to Britain because she was really looking forward to it. "But as well as herself and her parents, she also has a whole crew and band to think of and she has decided not to take the risk." Osbourne's Feb. 19 at London's Electric Ballroom has been postponed.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 03:49:00 pm: thank god she is safe.....actually I wouldnt want to fly into the UK today. Half of Gatwick is closed. they found a live hand grenage in a Venezualans luggage. They are closing the main road to Stansted and they arrested men at the perimeter of heathrow...... Fun!
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 03:52:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: thank god she is safe.....actually I wouldnt want to fly into the UK today. Half of Gatwick is closed. they found a live hand grenage in a Venezualans luggage. They are closing the main road to Stansted and they arrested men at the perimeter of heathrow...... Fun!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes I have been following the aiport news.A friend of mine just left for the airport to catch a flight to Heathrow, he was a little nervous.My mom flew from Gatwick yesterday and reported no delays.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 03:59:00 pm: I still am undecided as to whether there is a real threat, or they are just pumping up the populus in preparation for war.there are a quarter of a million troops getting bored in the middle east.....
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 04:04:00 pm: Well I think there is some real threat. But that reall isnt what scares me. I just don't know how to process the fact that at any moment somehting could happen and everyone will freak out, it is a little surreal.And it still pisses me off that nothing is being done about alternatives to a war which will only make things worse. I still have yet to hear a good explanation as to why we are about to go to war and how the war on terror became a war on Iraq.[This message has been edited by jadetree (edited 02-13-2003).]
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 13, 2003, 04:08:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jadetree: And I still pisses me off that nothing is being done about alternatives to a war which will only make things worse. I still have yet to hear a good explanation as to why we are about to go to war and how the war on terror became a war on Iraq.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's pretty simple. In late 2000, when it became obvious that Bush was going to be the man, Clinton's national security team called Bush's team and briefed them on the state of the world. They were told that there were three main threats to US security - 1) Osama bin Laden 2) Iraq 3) North Korea. Well the first one bit us in the ass. Now we are being proactive with the others.What do you see as the alternatives to war?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 04:19:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: It's pretty simple. In late 2000, when it became obvious that Bush was going to be the man, Clinton's national security team called Bush's team and briefed them on the state of the world. They were told that there were three main threats to US security - 1) Osama bin Laden 2) Iraq 3) North Korea. Well the first one bit us in the ass. Now we are being proactive with the others.What do you see as the alternatives to war?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There have to be alternatives, I dont have them, but I dont see war working, just because war is an option does not mean it is the right one. What will we get out of war? So we overthrow Saddam, that will spark a million other threats. This country can't keep pissing off everyone and expect to get away with it forever.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 04:23:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: What do you see as the alternatives to war?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why not do nothing. Why not lift sanctions against Iraq, promote peace.Get the world on "your side" with a carrot not a stick.The link between Al Quaeda and IraQ is a complete red herring.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 13, 2003, 04:31:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jadetree: There have to be alternatives, I dont have them, but I dont see war working, just because war is an option does not mean it is the right one. What will we get out of war? So we overthrow Saddam, that will spark a million other threats. This country can't keep pissing off everyone and expect to get away with it forever. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You've spent too much time playing that little computer game you posted a link to.Ten years of UN sanctions against Iraq didn't work.We tried diplomacy with North Korea. We gave them food, oil, and technical assistance on developing peaceful nuclear technology. In exchange, North Korea abandoned the weapons program it was working on and agreed to regular inspections. That didn't work either. They passed the inspections by working on a separate weapons program.North Korea can be dealt with through diplomacy (I believe), but it shows the failure of diplomacy, even when it seems to be working. Iraq's a lost cause. Do you really want Hussein with nuclear, chemical and biological weapons? I don't.As for the terror connection, it's just lame. After the last bin Laden tape came out, Powell was on NPR saying that it conclusively shows a "partnership" between Iraq and Al-Qaeda -- just because bin Laden told his followers to resist an American invasion of Iraq. By that criteria I guess France is in "partnership" with Al-Qaeda also. Perhaps we should invade France? Hmmmmm........never mind........I guess we couldn't get away with it.But I think Hussein's weapon program is enough reason to take him out. He's had ten years to comply and has shown no effort or results.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 04:40:00 pm: Well that video game, while exaggerated is not that unbelievable, but no, it is not the source of my feelings on this issue.Your explanations about why we are going to war still don't explain the timing. I just get the sense that the administration is decided on war and won't let anything deter them from having their war. I think that is an awful way to handle their power, and I have never wished for a different President more than I do now. But even better than that would be a more enlightened American public who is not so fond of the term "Nuke 'em". <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: You've spent too much time playing that little computer game you posted a link to.Ten years of UN sanctions against Iraq didn't work.We tried diplomacy with North Korea. We gave them food, oil, and technical assistance on developing peaceful nuclear technology. In exchange, North Korea abandoned the weapons program it was working on and agreed to regular inspections. That didn't work either. They passed the inspections by working on a separate weapons program.North Korea can be dealt with through diplomacy (I believe), but it shows the failure of diplomacy, even when it seems to be working. Iraq's a lost cause. Do you really want Hussein with nuclear, chemical and biological weapons? I don't.As for the terror connection, it's just lame. After the last bin Laden tape came out, Powell was on NPR saying that it conclusively shows a "partnership" between Iraq and Al-Qaeda -- just because bin Laden told his followers to resist an American invasion of Iraq. By that criteria I guess France is in "partnership" with Al-Qaeda also. Perhaps we should invade France? Hmmmmm........never mind........I guess we couldn't get away with it.But I think Hussein's weapon program is enough reason to take him out. He's had ten years to comply and has shown no effort or results.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Fico on February 13, 2003, 04:44:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: Perhaps we should invade France? Hmmmmm........never mind........I guess we couldn't get away with it..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The French are too busy being pompous... French war plans consist of 2 options: surrender or betray...And Napoleon twists in his grave...
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Fico on February 13, 2003, 04:47:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jadetree: I have never wished for a different President more than I do now <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And this are the words of John Ashcroft's former pet servant.... I don't hold it against you, it was probably the indie thing to do back then...
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 13, 2003, 04:48:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jadetree: Well that video game, while exaggerated is not that unbelievable, but no, it is not the source of my feelings on this issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The video game points out the dangers of nuclear weapons in the hands of unstable nations such as Pakistan. Aren't those weapons also dangerous in the hands of an unstable dictator who has never failed to use every weapon in his arsenal, against both his neighbors and his own people? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Your explanations about why we are going to war still don't explain the timing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The point of the three threats anecdote is that inaction can have a cost, as it did with bin Laden. Or are you suggesting we should have tried diplomacy with him.We didn't take bin Laden as an immediate threat and we paid a price for that. Do we want to take that chance with Hussein?How long do we keep playing diplomacy with Iraq? What's the end-game? What's the timeline? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I just get the sense that the administration is decided on war and won't let anything deter them from having their war. I think that is an awful way to handle their power, and I have never wished for a different President more than I do now. But even better than that would be a more enlightened American public who is not so fond of the term "Nuke 'em". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Enlighten us. What should we do?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Sir HC on February 13, 2003, 04:53:00 pm: Ten years of sactions did work. He doesn't have nukes, does he? He has done some little crap as surrepticiously as he can, nothing major. He has started no wars in a decade, isn't that pretty damn good, and contrary to the "middle east culture"? GGW, give me good reasons why we should go to war against Saddam, everyone I ask gives the same BS:1. He is an evil, evil man. To this I say so what, there are many men who are more evil than him that we have not attacked.2. He might get weapons on mass destruction. So, North Korea, India, Pakistan, and possibly Iran all have these, so what. He is currently pretty much under wraps, hell it is now known that we have been incessantly spying on the country and if we saw something really heinous we probably would have gone in or just bombed it already.3. Links to Osama. They have tried this one for about a year, and Saddam either has more teflon in his suit than Ronald Reagan or there is nothing here.4. He will give these weapons of mass destruction to terrorists. And then we would blow the hell out of his country. He may be an evil dictator, but he is not stupid. Has he done this in the past? No verifiable links have been shown, other than his giving of money to Palistinian "martyrs" families after the fact.These are the b.s. excuses I have heard so far, so what why should we go to war? All I have heard that makes sense is that Iraq converted to the Euro as their standard for oil sales and this is not what we want. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 04:56:00 pm: I feel it ironic that the only country to use nuclear weapons in war is the US. I still fail to see why it is more justified for the US to have weapons of mass destruction as opposed to country X. Did Saddam really gas his own people or was that an attack from Iran? I would say that it is inconclusive.Osama was a real threat he had already attacked the US. But you got an isolationist Pres in power who decided to ignore that threat. the consiracy theorist beleiving he did that on purpose so that he could than be hawkish on a worldwide basis. And diplomacy was working with Korea until the US withdrew financial support.GGW, you are not on form today.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Ikarus on February 13, 2003, 04:59:00 pm: alternatives? at this point, there really aren't any. if it was me in charge, we'd mount the iraqi offensive pronto, then wheel around and strike north korea's nuclear and missle development centers. then give the rest of the world the stank eye and ask if anyone else wants to fuck around. lets face it kids, might makes right.and markie, i love this bit: "And diplomacy was working with Korea until the US withdrew financial support." kinda like saying containment was working with hitler until he invaded poland.[This message has been edited by Ikarus (edited 02-13-2003).]
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Venerable Bede on February 13, 2003, 05:03:00 pm: yikes, how quickly we forget that we withdrew diplomacy with korea because they admitted they violated an agreement to stop their nuclear program, and said they would keep building unless U.S. gave them more aid. that sounds like someone we want to further discussions with.saddam gassed the iranians in the iran/iraq war, and has continually gassed the minority kurds in the north and south of iraq. shall we mention the tortures, executions and assassinations of members of the iraqi parliament, members of the military and the general civilian population? if given the means, saddam has no quarrel about using them. he's invaded iran and he's invaded kuwait. he's been keeping biological weapons, against original u.n. sanctions, he's continued to build missles beyond limits set my u.n. sanctions, how many sanctions must one violate before something is done?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: not too shabby on February 13, 2003, 05:08:00 pm: What you've got with Saddam is an unstable, ruthless thug of a dictator who basically wants a big section of history books devoted to him. He's proven that he cares nothing for his people (yes, I do believe that HE gassed those people, possibly 200,000 of them). He sells food and medicine that are for the Iraqis to other nations. He's proven that he can't handle WMD--he has to use them. But these things aren't the issue (whether or not they should be). The issue is that he has broken UN resolutions, and silly France and Germany want to punish him with, yes, another resolution. The only thing that will stop this man is military action. War is terrible, but sometimes it's the only option left. The only person who can stop this war from happening is Saddam.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Ikarus on February 13, 2003, 05:09:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Venerable Bede: how many sanctions must one violate before something is done?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ask israel, heh. for some reason, the us ignores un sanctions for israel's treatment of palestinians, but this iraqi shit is supposed to be important. the hypocrisy leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but the plug needs to be pulled on iraq. the un involvement is just slowing things down.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 05:09:00 pm: As for the gasing, I dont think I am the only one not convinced that it was by Iraq, not Iran.......Murders of the civilian population.....well thats a red herring. Pol Pot comes to mind. As for infingement of civil liberties, I believe there are 3000 people currently in camp X-ray.How do you know the missiles contravene the us sanctions? Iraq says they dont.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 05:11:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fico: And this are the words of John Ashcroft's former pet servant.... I don't hold it against you, it was probably the indie thing to do back then...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> you are a moron
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Venerable Bede on February 13, 2003, 05:12:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: How do you know the missiles contravene the us sanctions? Iraq says they dont.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>well. . .in today's post, "a team of international weapons inspectors ... has concluded that a major Iraqi ballistic missle program is in clear violation of U.N. mandates." (http://www.930.com/ubb/tongue.gif)
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: not too shabby on February 13, 2003, 05:14:00 pm: I don't think we'll know the truth (or the extent) of Saddam's reign of terror over the Iraqis until he's gone. Exiles tell a pretty grim story, though.As for those 3,000 in X-Ray, well, I won't even start.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 05:16:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Venerable Bede: well. . .in today's post, "a team of international weapons inspectors ... has concluded that a major Iraqi ballistic missle program is in clear violation of U.N. mandates." (http://www.930.com/ubb/tongue.gif)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>and Iraq countered by saying they didnt.Personally I feel there is a better arguement for war when appraoched with your reasoning, rather than the Al quaeda link or anything else, like that.But still infidels taking over the middle east? I would give that a wide body swerve if I were you. How stable is the region going to be with a catholic led QANGO in charge of Iraq?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 05:20:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by not too shabby: As for those 3,000 in X-Ray, well, I won't even start. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>what about what happened at Waco, what about Tianemen square what about Argentina of 15 years ago or again Pol Pot.Wars are not generally fought over how a country mistreats its citizens. Name one example?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 05:26:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: The video game points out the dangers of nuclear weapons in the hands of unstable nations such as Pakistan. Aren't those weapons also dangerous in the hands of an unstable dictator who has never failed to use every weapon in his arsenal, against both his neighbors and his own people?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes they are dangerous, they are dangerous in anyone's power. I am not convinced that throwing Saddam out will get rid of the problem. The problem will reemerge in 10 years. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: The point of the three threats anecdote is that inaction can have a cost, as it did with bin Laden. Or are you suggesting we should have tried diplomacy with him.We didn't take bin Laden as an immediate threat and we paid a price for that. Do we want to take that chance with Hussein?How long do we keep playing diplomacy with Iraq? What's the end-game? What's the timeline?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It still seems as it all came on suddenly to me. If you remember back to when people seriously started talking about war with Iraq, most people were surprised by the suddeness. It did not seem like the timing made any sense and there were no serious attempts and addressing the issue diplomatically before the decision was made to go to war. Iraq was on a nonexistent leash with this Administration. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: Enlighten us. What should we do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't have the answers GGW, I was more worried about the fact that nobody is looking for the answers. I just know that War is not necessary, it is the god damn truth. I know, I am so very Naive, but, oh well.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 05:27:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by not too shabby: I don't think we'll know the truth (or the extent) of Saddam's reign of terror over the Iraqis until he's gone. Exiles tell a pretty grim story, though.As for those 3,000 in X-Ray, well, I won't even start. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When will we know the truth about Bush's reign of terror?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 13, 2003, 05:27:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sir HC: Ten years of sactions did work. He doesn't have nukes, does he? He has done some little crap as surrepticiously as he can, nothing major. He has started no wars in a decade, isn't that pretty damn good, and contrary to the "middle east culture"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We don't know where his weapons program stands. Ten years ago the UN told him to dismantle the program we knew about and show proof that it was dismantled. He has not shown proof, as he known he has to all along. As North Korea has shown, even inspections can't guarantee that there isn't a program.He hasn't done large scale killing of his own people because they are protected by the UN enacted No-Fly zones that we have been patrolling for ten years. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>GGW, give me good reasons why we should go to war against Saddam, everyone I ask gives the same BS:1. He is an evil, evil man. To this I say so what, there are many men who are more evil than him that we have not attacked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "Evil" is a judgment call. Let's say he's meglomaniacal and prone to violence. Are there others like that? Sure. Have the others been shown to have a WMD program? Have the others failed to dismantle that program under UN directive? Do the others have a history of using WMD against their neighbors and own people? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>2. He might get weapons on mass destruction. So, North Korea, India, Pakistan, and possibly Iran all have these, so what. He is currently pretty much under wraps, hell it is now known that we have been incessantly spying on the country and if we saw something really heinous we probably would have gone in or just bombed it already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There's no boiler-plate for foreign policy. India and Pakistan are absorbed in their own battles and currently ruled by leaders who are more level-headed than Hussein. North Korea is using it's program for leverage not aggression. Iran might be a problem, but at least there is an active opposition movement there and the country hasn't shown a propensity to invade it's neighbors or gas its own people. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>3. Links to Osama. They have tried this one for about a year, and Saddam either has more teflon in his suit than Ronald Reagan or there is nothing here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wholeheartedly agree. It's a stupid argument and we should have given it up a long time ago. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>4. He will give these weapons of mass destruction to terrorists. And then we would blow the hell out of his country. He may be an evil dictator, but he is not stupid. Has he done this in the past? No verifiable links have been shown, other than his giving of money to Palistinian "martyrs" families after the fact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We don't know what he would do with them. Even if he kept them to himself, would you still want him to have them? He has had ten years to get his nation out of UN sanctions by showing that he destroyed his weapons program. He hasn't. I don't think he really cares about his country outside of his power over it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>These are the b.s. excuses I have heard so far, so what why should we go to war? All I have heard that makes sense is that Iraq converted to the Euro as their standard for oil sales and this is not what we want. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Gulf War I was all about oil -- As Paul O'Neill once said about the Gulf War "If the chief resource of Kuwait was bananas, we wouldn't be there." Nonetheless, this time it's about WMD in the hands of a meglomaniacal, violent dictator with a history of using every weapon in his arsenal to achieve his internal and external goals.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Venerable Bede on February 13, 2003, 05:29:00 pm: you know, i was just commenting to someone about how this is the 10 year anniversary of waco (not to mention the year of my 10 year high school reunion). time flies.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 13, 2003, 05:32:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ikarus: ask israel, heh. for some reason, the us ignores un sanctions for israel's treatment of palestinians, but this iraqi shit is supposed to be important. the hypocrisy leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but the plug needs to be pulled on iraq. the un involvement is just slowing things down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Amen. I'm not here to say that everything the US does is right -- it's not. But specifically talking about Iraq, I don't see any alternatives.After that, I think the single best thing we could do for our position in the world is to start tying the ridiculously huge amount of "assistance" we give to Israel to substantive steps Israel takes in removing its foot from the throats of the people who's land they've been stealing for fifty years. It would build a lot of the goodwill that the US is sorely lacking.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: not too shabby on February 13, 2003, 05:33:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: Wars are not generally fought over how a country mistreats its citizens. Name one example?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't say that those were reasons to go to war. If that were the basis for war, we would have a lot of war to wage. The reasons for military action are clear, and they are a direct result of Iraq's failure to comply with the UN's demands concerning their weapons program. I hope that the result of war (if it comes to that) will allow the Iraqi people to live without fear of being imprisoned, tortured, gassed, etc. by their own government for the sole purpose of scaring them into submission.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 05:37:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: After that, I think the single best thing we could do for our position in the world is to start tying the ridiculously huge amount of "assistance" we give to Israel to substantive steps Israel takes in removing its foot from the throats of the people who's land they've been stealing for fifty years. It would build a lot of the goodwill that the US is sorely lacking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>we can agree on that, too bad so many people in the US equate this kind of thought with antisemitism
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: myuman on February 13, 2003, 05:42:00 pm: This "war" is about many things... I feel the greatest is protecting the U.S. on the broad scope. The best way to view Hussein and Iraq is comparing them to the mob. Just being Americans is the crime. The opposing side will strike, but this war is all about the future of this country. I can't see peace being an option when governments like the ones in the news believe the only good American is a dead one. As for Germany and France... how quickly we forget. Understandable however, considering specific memory tends to fade over 58 years. No one wants to get on the bad side of this Mob, but the U.S. really has very little choice at this point. Talk is cheap. Peace is very nice and idealistic, but I'm sorry to say, it's not the way the world works and not what made this (U.S.) country what it is today.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: not too shabby on February 13, 2003, 05:45:00 pm: You have to admit (or not, I suppose) that the UN targets Israel more than anyone else in this department. Don't think so? Read this, even if you don't agree, it's interesting: <A HREF="http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/goldstein_feb9.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/goldstein_feb9.html[/url]
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 05:47:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myuman: This "war" is about many things... I feel the greatest is protecting the U.S. on the broad scope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>how very nice it must be to see the world as good and evil, and you belong to the side of good.A rather playground kind of attitude isnt it? Do you think the middle east will be more stable when a catholic led QANGO is in charge of Iraq?I dont.It will just generate even more resentment of the US in my opinion.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 05:50:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myuman: Talk is cheap. Peace is very nice and idealistic, but I'm sorry to say, it's not the way the world works and not what made this (U.S.) country what it is today.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So the way to continue success is to continue what we made you successful. I think you can find many examples that show the opposite. Peace is not the way the world works because people haven't worked that way. And, quite frankly, I have no great desire for the U.S. to remain what it is today, it would be nice if the country used its power for positve change a little more often and a little less selectively.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: sid vicious on February 13, 2003, 05:52:00 pm: Like if they legalized weed, that would be the dogs bollox. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jadetree: it would be nice if the country used its power for positve change a little more often and a little less selectively.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: myuman on February 13, 2003, 05:54:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: how very nice it must be to see the world as good and evil, and you belong to the side of good. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Absolutely... and so do you... next question.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 05:55:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sid vicious: Like if they legalized weed, that would be the dogs bollox. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>would be a hell of a startis that sid viscous?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: sid vicious on February 13, 2003, 05:55:00 pm: It'd be fookin' mega.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: myuman on February 13, 2003, 05:56:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jadetree: So the way to continue success is to continue doing what made you successful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry jadetree, but had to fix your quote a little... Answer: Wouldn't anyone be stupid not to?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 05:59:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myuman: Absolutely... and so do you... next question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually I dont. I can see what a mess the British empire and then the end of the second world war made of the middle east.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Venerable Bede on February 13, 2003, 06:00:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: But still infidels taking over the middle east? I would give that a wide body swerve if I were you. How stable is the region going to be with a catholic led QANGO in charge of Iraq?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>well. . .the u.s. is not gonna install a christian as leader of iraq, the government has already said as much.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 06:01:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myuman: Sorry jadetree, but had to fix your quote a little... Answer: Wouldn't anyone be stupid not to?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>how thick are you?How many companies that were around at the turn of the century are still big players now?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 06:02:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sid vicious: It'd be fookin' mega.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>must be Fico
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 06:03:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Venerable Bede: well. . .the u.s. is not gonna install a christian as leader of iraq, the government has already said as much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>but he will still be a puppet to the infidels who invaded? I am sure that is how some of the middle east will see it. They will probably strap explosives to themselves and go and hug the nearest pale blue beret they can find.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: myuman on February 13, 2003, 06:04:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: how thick are you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>About as thick as the person who would take the hamburger off the McDonalds menu.... stick with what works.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 06:09:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myuman: About as thick as the person who would take the hamburger off the McDonalds menu.... stick with what works.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No you are about as smart as the person that put beef extract in the Mickey D's fries in India.Yea, I know, stick with what works and get a big fookin' fine!!!Ha Ha
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Venerable Bede on February 13, 2003, 06:11:00 pm: infidel? oooh. . .according to who's definition? according to osama, saddam already is an infidel. if according to traditional islamic defition, that person would not be an infidel if he believed that there is but one god and allah is his name, and followed the other tenets of islam. course, if you use an islamic fundamentalist definition, then association with the West is de facto (see Iran).
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 13, 2003, 06:13:00 pm: What's QANGO?
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: myuman on February 13, 2003, 06:13:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: I am sure that is how some of the middle east will see it. They will probably strap explosives to themselves and go and hug the nearest pale blue beret they can find.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think our goal is to clean house. That once again is way too idealistic. Our main goal is to create an environment that is more stable for Americans. No a Catholic prez would not be the answer, but not everyone in Iraq is happy with the current situation, and would be thrilled with a new leader. There would be hostilities. But it will be safer for the U.S. with Saddam gone for sure.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 06:21:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: What's QANGO?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> quango QUAsi-Non Governmental Organization (1973, 12W)Again, I cant spell.Britain used to be ruled by them. Non-elected groups that would make decisions of great importance....
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 06:23:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myuman: I don't think our goal is to clean house. That once again is way too idealistic. Our main goal is to create an environment that is more stable for Americans. No a Catholic prez would not be the answer, but not everyone in America is happy with the current situation, and would be thrilled with a new leader. There would be hostilities. But it will be safer for the saddam with Bush gone for sure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now I can agree with your statement.there is no clear exit strategy for after a war. Ask Russia how it feels about Chechnya.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 13, 2003, 06:28:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: quango QUAsi-Non Governmental Organization (1973, 12W)Again, I cant spell.Britain used to be ruled by them. Non-elected groups that would make decisions of great importance....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In the US we call them "lobbyists"
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Ikarus on February 13, 2003, 06:28:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: It would build a lot of the goodwill that the US is sorely lacking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i was real excited when powell mentioned support and plans for a palestinian state. then that whole 9/11 thing went down.bah. they're our biggest client state. things won't change until israelis see their biggest threat is thugs and losers like sharon.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 13, 2003, 06:30:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: Do you think the middle east will be more stable when a catholic led QANGO is in charge of Iraq? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004W48K.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) I was worried that you were suggesting Carl Palmer was going to be in charge of Iraq. Iraq is in Asia and all.......
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Ikarus on February 13, 2003, 06:31:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jadetree: ...too bad so many people in the US equate this kind of thought with antisemitism<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>absurd isn't it? a fine example of newspeak, though.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: markie on February 13, 2003, 06:31:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: In the US we call them "lobbyists"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>great innit, groups of people appointed by the government who after much deliberation come up with exactly what government wanted to hear all along.....
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: Celeste on February 13, 2003, 06:37:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jadetree: When will we know the truth about Bush's reign of terror?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>come on...reign of stupidity,maybe, but not reign of terror...
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: jadetree on February 13, 2003, 06:45:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Celeste: come on...reign of stupidity,maybe, but not reign of terror...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>it was a joke
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: poorlulu on February 14, 2003, 12:18:00 am: i love tomorrow's front page for the mirror.............it's funny cos it's true...........ain't it always the way............? (http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1126589.jpg)
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: myuman on February 14, 2003, 12:14:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by poorlulu: (http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1126589.jpg) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn't that the paper with porn inside the front cover.... might tell something of the source.
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: poorlulu on February 14, 2003, 12:19:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myuman: Isn't that the paper with porn inside the front cover.... might tell something of the source.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i think you are thinking of the sun.........it has page 3 girls......i don't think the mirror has though..........ahhh you have to love the british tabloids...........
Title: Re: Lets all hide in our homes
Post by: ggw on February 14, 2003, 12:20:00 pm: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myuman: Isn't that the paper with porn inside the front cover.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here's the inside front cover of today's issue: (http://free.pages.at/mecca/fun/makelovenotwar.jpg)