930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: jabella on September 30, 2009, 11:56:21 am
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What does everyone think of the sound at the 930? I'll see comments that the sound is very good, but from my experience it is kind of harsh on the high end and muddy on the low end. I'll usually stand in the upper right balcony so maybe it is my position. But once I was right up front on the floor, and I was very disappointed in the mix as they do not have any center fill speakers and the vocals were not clear at all.
OTOH, the sound at Ram's Head Baltimore is much better - very crisp and clear and the club space is much more difficult than the 930 I would think. Don't mean to be negative. I'm just surprised the 930 doesn't have better sound. Comments?
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It's easily the best sounding room I've ever been in although you do have a point re: not being able to hear the vocals right up front at many shows. The BC and other rooms in the area have the same problem, though. When you're right up front, most of the audio you're getting isn't from the PA but from the artists' monitors. I'm not exactly a sound engineer but think that has something to do with it.
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i really, really like the new PA at the club. i haven't been up front/on the rail for a show since it's been put in, so i can't comment about the sound right up front. but i thought zz top sounded really good from about 7 or 8 people back from the rail (closest i've been to the stage recently). all the shows that i've been to sounded good to great from the floor and balcony.
at the first zz top show we showed up relatively early. i found in interesting that a sizeable number of people who got there before us decided to grab a spot at the back of the floor directly in front of the soundboard. obviously that's where you'll get the best sound, but didn't think it is where one dashes for a spot as soon as doors open.
When you're right up front, most of the audio you're getting isn't from the PA but from the artists' monitors. I'm not exactly a sound engineer but think that has something to do with it.
when you're right up front, you're getting a lot of direct sound from the guitar and bass amps and some from the drums. vocals and keys (and strings), on the other hand, are only amplified through the monitors which are pointed back towards the band & away from the crowd. fills are required to, well, fill in the missing bits like vocals and keys... although this mix is rarely very good, i doubt many sound engineers put a whole lot of time perfecting a properly filled-in mix for folks on the rail.
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What does everyone think of the sound at the 930? I'll see comments that the sound is very good, but from my experience it is kind of harsh on the high end and muddy on the low end. I'll usually stand in the upper right balcony so maybe it is my position. But once I was right up front on the floor, and I was very disappointed in the mix as they do not have any center fill speakers and the vocals were not clear at all.
OTOH, the sound at Ram's Head Baltimore is much better - very crisp and clear and the club space is much more difficult than the 930 I would think. Don't mean to be negative. I'm just surprised the 930 doesn't have better sound. Comments?
Wow, I could not disagree with you more regarding the sound at RHL. Been there for about a dozen shows and EVERY single time I leave having the same discussion about the poor sound quality. Could be just me, I mean I'm no expert or anything.
As for 9:30 (and I guess any bigger room) so much depends on who's mixing. If the house engineer is mixing a show chances are it's going to sound great, but so many bands tour with their own engineers these days that you're more likely to see a show where someone might be mixing that room for the first time ever. I can't imagine having to mix a different room night after night. Most bands have a sound they go for rather than figuring out how best to mix that particular space. I've actually seen shows where the support acts sound better, quality wise, than the headliner because a house engineer is mixing them while the road engineer mixes the headliner.
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I've never been to RHL but have heard similar complaints about the sound there. Someone recently mentioned to me that there's a bar in the back from which the volume of any given show can be likened to that of the house music before/between bands at the club.
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LOL Rams Head Live has better sound than the 930??? I don't think so! RHL has terrible, terrible sound. Maybe 2nd only to Sonar in terms of shitty sound.
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Sonar's sound hurts. Both times I saw shows in that shithole, I left in pain. All high end. I haven't been there in a couple years, however.
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Wow, just wow.
Okay, there are pit fills, they are not always used, but look straight up on the truss, you will see two Q's pointing straight down. Also two balcony fills pointing to the sides on the truss.
The bass muddy? This new bass system is so much tighter than the old EAWs, with a much more even dispersion. Harsh? That is probably whomever was mixing the band, this system is much less harsh than the old 850s were.
The only negative comment I can say is that it might be "too good" for rock sometimes.
As to RHL sound, it is not great, that balcony really hacks one have of the flown rig, and they had to add those speakers on the stage to fill downstairs in.
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Sonar's sound hurts. Both times I saw shows in that shithole, I left in pain. All high end. I haven't been there in a couple years, however.
Which room? The big one or the "club room". That club room is a bitch to mix, it is very reverberant and if it is not filled, a wash of sound (only worked there once for a friend's band). I have only seen DJs in the big room, and it sounded good. Just saw the Butthole Surfers in the club room, and they had it sounding good (openers not so good).
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The big room.
The last show I saw there was Ween and I left with ringing ears.
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I like the sound at Sonar, but I usually wear my 25db earplugs when i go. As for the 930 club, I have zero complaints about the sound. However, i always watch shows from the back by the sound booth, and have zero knowledge of the new system up front or in the balcony.
And RHL is definitely not better, but not too bad. I dont have complaints about sound in that venue, just the lack of good sight lines.
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The big room.
The last show I saw there was Ween and I left with ringing ears.
Interesting, their house guy did the last Gomez tour, he was not that loud for them.
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Interesting comments. I'll have to try the floor next time - middle to back of the room, or the back balcony. I've been to at least a dozen shows at the 930 and about 5 or so shows at RH, and the people I know have agreed with me. Of course they've been to a lot of the same shows and have been in the same spot as me in most cases. BTW, I've played in bands for almost 30 years now (started in my early teens), so I do know sound, don't mind it loud, and no - my ears are not shot.
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The first Disco Biscuits show there was the other show I saw there and again, super loud high end that left me hurting. That one was worse and left a longer lasting effect than the Ween show.
The big room.
The last show I saw there was Ween and I left with ringing ears.
Interesting, their house guy did the last Gomez tour, he was not that loud for them.
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So much depends on what type of band is playing, how many people are in the club (trust me, sound can be VERY different when a band is playing to 200 people vs. 1200), who is doing sound, etc. etc. etc. I've heard sound at Ram's Head positively shred (Queens of the Stone Age) and I've heard it when it's been pretty lackluster (can't remember off the top of my head). Queens has a soundman named Hutch that knows his stuff. Where you decide to stand can really make a difference too though. I've seen bands where I was in the sweet spot and loved every second and nobody else had a kind thing to say about the sound. You just never know.
If you want to talk about iffy sound, then let's talk DAR, Sonar and the Aragon.
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Thanks - that probably explains it best. I have definitely heard some openers with better sound than the headliners. I'm surprised the band sound engineer would not get more help from the venue staff, but sound guys usually have their own methods - to hell with everyone else:)
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The great sound is the only thing that makes me keep putting up with the absurd overselling of the 9:30 Club
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the pa system at 930 might be the best i have ever heard. one problem with the sound is who is mixing. i have heard some incredible bass for a small opening act. then the headliner sounds muddy. another problem is that those d+b j cabinets are very tight/narrow. there is not much sound on the side of them. if you are too close (within 5-6 rows/people from the stage) you might only hear the sound from the stage with very distant vocals. i thought those speakers pointed straight down looked like the old front fills mounted to the old eaws. i can't say i ever heard them with the new system. i remember one time i saw son volt with the eaw system. the front fills would only come on for the vocals. when there were no vocals, no front fills. when i saw son volt a couple of weeks ago, the vocals 2-3 people back from the stage were very present. the instruments seemed to come from the stage. they used the old eaw's as side fills, so i am not sure if i heard those or the top mounted front fills. gus once told me it was up to the band mixer to use the front fills. it is too bad that they are not used consistantly. oh yeah, are those little front fills powerful enough to throw enough sound from that distance?
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The front fills are Q cabs and can throw pretty damn well. They are on a separate aux so you can put only things that you want in them versus the main PA. This was the case with the EAWs too. Reason is that you don't want to put the same mix there as the stage throw mucks it up and you don't want to stress the Qs (or those cute little EAWs that were there before) with bass and kick. Problem is that the infills can also add to feedback issues as they do spill onto the stage (not as much now though).
I still remember the story years back when Helmet played, and Paige asked how it sounded. Someone right up front said they couldn't hear the vocals. He replied "Well get where the speakers are".
Usually the headliner will have a guy and the openers don't, so that is the club guy who has lots of experience with the rig mixing. Headliners usually have great guys, but sometimes they have sub-par guys or they make it sound like what the egos in the band want (and not what should be). And remember, as taught to me by one great engineer, "Sometimes you just have to turn it up".
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At the last Sebadoh show from a couple years back, some guy complained about not being able to hear the vocals up front to which Lou replied "want to hear the vocals? Put your ear right here on my monitor. Or back up." That was pretty funny."
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At the last Sebadoh show from a couple years back, some guy complained about not being able to hear the vocals up front to which Lou replied "want to hear the vocals? Put your ear right here on my monitor. Or back up." That was pretty funny."
Ha.
I saw The Evens at this old firehouse that had been converted to an art gallery here in Richmond 2 years ago. A few songs in (after having us all sit down on the floor because there is no raised stage), Ian asks if anyone has a question and this dopey looking kid sticks his hand up and they call on him and he goes "Can you turn up the toms a bit? They're pretty quiet in the mix." And Amy goes "Uh, there's no sound system... I can give them a pep talk and tell them to perk up if you like." They rode the kid pretty hard about it the rest of the show.
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At the last Sebadoh show from a couple years back, some guy complained about not being able to hear the vocals up front to which Lou replied "want to hear the vocals? Put your ear right here on my monitor. Or back up." That was pretty funny."
One of my good friends now hates Sebadoh after that show. Their noise assualt at the end of the show was too much for him. I thought it was great.
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That show was all kinds of awesome. They played everything anyone could've hoped to hear. Too bad it was so poorly attended.
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I enjoyed the light crowd, gave me room to breathe. That show and the last Low show there have been two of my favorite club shows, crowd wise at least.