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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: ggw on March 12, 2004, 04:16:00 pm
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March 12, 2004
Utah Woman Charged With Murdering Fetus
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:55 a.m. ET
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- A woman accused of murder because she allegedly avoided a Caesarean section that could have saved her unborn twin has denied the charge, saying she already had scars from earlier C-sections.
Her attorney, meanwhile, said she had a long history of mental illness.
Melissa Ann Rowland, 28, was charged Thursday of showing ``depraved indifference to human life,'' ignoring medical advice to deliver her twins by C-section because she didn't want to be scarred. One nurse told police Rowland said she would rather ``lose one of the babies than be cut like that.''
Rowland told Salt Lake City radio station KSL from jail that ``I already have a pretty nasty scar, it doesn't matter at all now,'' The Salt Lake Tribune reported.
Her attorney, Michael Sikora, called a C-section major surgery and told the Tribune ``it would come as no surprise that a woman with major mental illness would fear it.''
The documents allege that Rowland was warned numerous times between Christmas and Jan. 9 that her unborn twins would likely die if she did not get immediate medical treatment, the documents allege. When she delivered them on Jan. 13, the twin girl survived but the boy died.
Shortly afterward, Rowland was jailed on a child endangerment charge involving the surviving twin, who has been adopted by a family Rowland knows.
Rowland told the radio station she has two other children who live with their grandparents in Virginia. Sikora said Rowland moved to Utah with a boyfriend and is either divorced or estranged from her husband. She lives in the Salt Lake City suburb of West Jordan.
A spokesman for the district attorney, Kent Morgan, had said earlier that Rowland was married.
The case could affect abortion rights and open the door to the prosecution of mothers who smoke or don't follow their obstetrician's diet, said Marguerite Driessen, a law professor at Brigham Young University.
``It's very troubling to have somebody come in and say we're going to charge this mother for murder because we don't like the choices she made,'' she said.
The woman sought medical advice in December because she hadn't felt the fetuses move, documents said.
Regina Davis, a nurse at LDS Hospital in Salt Lake, told police that during a visit there, Rowland was recommended two hospitals to go to for immediate care. Rowland allegedly said she would rather have both twins die before she went to either of the suggested hospitals.
On Jan. 2, a doctor at LDS Hospital saw Rowland and recommended she immediately undergo a C-section based on the results of an ultrasound and the fetus' slowing heart rates. Rowland left after signing a document stating that she understood that leaving might result in death or brain injury to one or both twins, the doctor told police.
The same day, a nurse at Salt Lake Regional Hospital saw Rowland, who allegedly told her she had left LDS Hospital because the doctor wanted to cut her ``from breast bone to pubic bone,'' a procedure that would ``ruin her life.''
LDS Hospital can't comment on the case because of medical privacy issues and the pending court case, said spokesman Robert Pexton.
The doctor who performed an autopsy found that the fetus died two days before delivery and would have survived if Rowland had undergone a C-section when urged to do so. It was not immediately clear how far along Rowland was in her pregnancy.
She was charged in Salt Lake County with one first-degree felony count of criminal homicide. Rowland was being held on $250,000 bail at the Salt Lake County jail, and was scheduled to appear in court Tuesday.
If convicted, she could be sentenced to between five years and life in prison.
``We are unable to find any reason other than the cosmetic motivations by the mother'' for her decision, Morgan said.
Caesarean sections usually involve delivery through a surgical incision in the abdomen and front wall of the uterus. Dr. Christian Morgan, a family practice doctor who regularly performs C-sections at the University of Utah Health Sciences Center, said he had never seen vertical skin incisions performed at LDS Hospital for a first-time C-section.
``Even when you need to get a baby out in minutes, it can still be done in the bikini incision,'' Christian Morgan said.
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I read this earlier today. It is quite a sad story. Have the doctors no power to force an operation upon the insane? I think they may have invoked that ability in the UK.
The case really does open a can of worms though. It is much easier to imagine the rights of the unborn child belonging solely to the mother. Otherwise what happens if a foetus dies if a women is a drug adddict, eats poor food.......
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I think that's manslaughter not murder, but I'm no lawyer (Thank God).
And women who smoke while pregnant should be prosecuted under child endangerment laws. (imo)
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
I read this earlier today. It is quite a sad story. Have the doctors no power to force an operation upon the insane? I think they may have invoked that ability in the UK.
The case really does open a can of worms though. It is much easier to imagine the rights of the unborn child belonging solely to the mother. Otherwise what happens if a foetus dies if a women is a drug adddict, eats poor food.......
Ummm... yup, I'm with you. This is really disturbing. From what I've read, C-sections *suck*. I can understand why even a sane person wouldn't want a repeat of that.
What next, the fetus has more rights than the mother? Gosh, you know, in Utah, it may just happen...
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Originally posted by chimblysweep:
What next, the fetus has more rights than the mother? Gosh, you know, in Utah, it may just happen... [/b]
The fetus should have the same rights as the mother, and if the choice is DEATH or a scar then who's need is greater?
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
The case really does open a can of worms though. It is much easier to imagine the rights of the unborn child belonging solely to the mother. Otherwise what happens if a foetus dies if a women is a drug adddict, eats poor food.......
It's an awful, yucky can of worms, one that is largely insoluble to me. I understand the premise of one brick taken out can weaken the wall so that it all comes downs (from the pro-choicers, afraid it's all going to be lost with every decision). But, at the point in question here, it sounds as if those were babies viable outside of the mother's body. Bleck. I was equally troubled by late-term abortions (ie, I'm against them, but understood why the P-C folks were fighting it) -- there does have to be a point, but where is that point?
The woman's mental state is this complicating factor I'm not even sure how to think about. Is there standing policy on the bodies of medically mentally deficient patients?
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Originally posted by chimblysweep:
Ummm... yup, I'm with you. This is really disturbing. From what I've read, C-sections *suck*. I can understand why even a sane person wouldn't want a repeat of that.
From what I hear, they're not bad at all, and they are extremely common. While any surgery entails risks, an awful lot of mothers actually schedule C-sections so they know exactly when the delivery date will be. I'll bet that of the 8 moms who are friends of mine, 6 have had C-sections.
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Originally posted by mankie:
The fetus should have the same rights as the mother, and if the choice is DEATH or a scar then who's need is greater?
The foetus does not have the same rights as the mother. Late term abortions, right up until the last minute are allowed if they endanger the life of the mother.
At what point do you think the foetus should have the same rights as the mother? I never thought of you as a pro-lifer, Mankie.
As for C-sections, Dont all the stars get them to avoid the pain of chilbirth? Then again I guess they havea pastic surgeon on hand too.
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http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0385493029&view=excerpt (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0385493029&view=excerpt)
Naomi Wolf's book, Misconceptions, has a lot to say about C-Sections.
Anyway, I don't think the child has any rights until after birth-- it's the MOTHER'S child and she has the right to decide what happens.
A lot of these "fetal rights" ideas are really a strategy by anti-choice folks to chip away at abortion rights. If they can get rights for a fetus, it would be easier to argue that the mother doesn't have the right to choose to terminate.
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I'm not an abortion clinic bomber, but I am pro-life, but feel my beliefs should not be forced on others so think it should be the choice of BOTH PARENTS so pro-choice in that regard. It shouldn't be just the mothers decision though, and if she doesn't want the child but the father does and accepts full responsibity after birth, then the law should force the mother to have the child.
Rory was a c-section and the decision was made in the hospital during labor...he wasn't dropping down so they did a c-section and thank God they did because the imbilical cord was wrapped around his neck three times so he would've been strangled to death or suffered brain damage during birth, or at least they would've had to perform and emergency c-section.
And markie....I didn't say the baby has the same rights as the mother, I said it SHOULD have the same rights as the mother.
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Originally posted by chimblysweep:
Anyway, I don't think the child has any rights until after birth-- it's the MOTHER'S child and she has the right to decide what happens.
It's also the FATHER's child!!
Don't let your membership to NOW expire there chimblysweep.
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Originally posted by mankie:
so think it should be the choice of BOTH PARENTS so pro-choice in that regard.
Woah... that's a whole new can of worms.
Paternal rights? So, a guy gets a girl pregnant. She doesn't want it, but he can force her to carry it to term?? WHAT?
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Originally posted by chimblysweep:
Anyway, I don't think the child has any rights until after birth-- it's the MOTHER'S child and she has the right to decide what happens.
Why draw the line at birth? Even after birth it's still the mother's child. Maybe she could get like a two-year test drive. If she isn't satisfied, she can then make the choice to puncture her child's skull and suck out it's brain tissue.
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here's hoping that i'm not having to id cu ip addresses again...
and whats with all the heavy stuff on a nice friday? should you all be out enjoying the sun? frisbee? hacky sack? mini motoring? walking the kiddies? running? biking
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Originally posted by chimblysweep:
Originally posted by mankie:
so think it should be the choice of BOTH PARENTS so pro-choice in that regard.
Woah... that's a whole new can of worms.
Paternal rights? So, a guy gets a girl pregnant. She doesn't want it, but he can force her to carry it to term?? WHAT? [/b]
So if she gets pregnant HE DID IT on his own did he?? but she gets to kill the kid.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
here's hoping that i'm not having to id cu ip addresses again...
and whats with all the heavy stuff on a nice friday? should you all be out enjoying the sun? frisbee? hacky sack? mini motoring? walking the kiddies? running? biking
mmm... bikey goodness. let's talk about that instead.
:cool:
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
here's hoping that i'm not having to id cu ip addresses again...
and whats with all the heavy stuff on a nice friday? should you all be out enjoying the sun? frisbee? hacky sack? mini motoring? walking the kiddies? running? biking
sitting at desk being bad by avoiding work I really don't want to do...bad bad bags...would be outside, but this way I'm 'putting in desk time.' I know I'll be making it up, though. The work I'm avoiding, not the desk time, alas.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
here's hoping that i'm not having to id cu ip addresses again...
and whats with all the heavy stuff on a nice friday? should you all be out enjoying the sun? frisbee? hacky sack? mini motoring? walking the kiddies? running? biking
Or if your chimblysweep....kill the kiddies because you got laid the other month and don't want it to spoil your partying.
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Originally posted by chimblysweep:
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0385493029&view=excerpt (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0385493029&view=excerpt)
Naomi Wolf's book, Misconceptions, has a lot to say about C-Sections.
I love Naomi Wolf, but missed this book somehow (having read her previous three). So I started to peruse the excerpt -- there are WAY too many adjectives in this para:
"Behind the small veranda where we sat, louche ex-models were making pasta in the kitchen, dressed in black bikinis and the white high-heeled hiking boots that were having a brief vogue. They were chopping fresh basil on a century-old slab of white, gray-veined marble. The groom, a rakish young attorney, paced the sloping lawn where the ceremony would be held, looking pleased and scared."
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Originally posted by mankie:
Or if your chimblysweep....kill the kiddies because you got laid the other month and don't want it to spoil your partying.
More like, if your family planning hadn't planned on a child yet, or if you don't have the finances in place, or if you live in a studio, or if you don't have health insurance, or if you are not done with school yet, or if you were raped, or...
then it's irresponsible to have a child. So don't.
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What if I don't plan on losing my job but it happens anyway?
Is it then okay to kill somebody?
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<img src="http://photos.friendster.com/photos/90/37/267309/1686712940088s.jpg" alt=" - " />
more bike talk needed!
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
The foetus does not have the same rights as the mother. Late term abortions, right up until the last minute are allowed if they endanger the life of the mother.
[/QB]
the reasoning for this - at least from the catholic church's point of view (which is not the only, or necessarily right, one) - is that if the birth of the child will endanger the life of the mother, an abortion is considered "ok." this is because the mother has begun a life and, for lack of better wording, has more to lose than an unborn fetus. it is seen as the lesser of two evils in those circumstances.
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Originally posted by chimblysweep:
<img src="http://photos.friendster.com/photos/90/37/267309/1686712940088s.jpg" alt=" - " />
more bike talk needed!
I agree! Let's change the subject because it's such a polarizing one.
I bought a new road bike....just before I broke my friggin wrist, and have only taken it out once for a quick 20 miler....can't wait to take it out for a longer ride soon. I was hoping this Sunday but my wife is away so it's a dad and boy weekend. Maybe next week or I'll pull a sickie next week if the weather is nice.
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Yes, I too wish I had more road time. I have a slick newish racer that really needs more attention... I was hoping for 150 miles a week this year but it's not coming close. boo.
Luckily my commute gives me 25 miles a week free. That helps.
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Does that mean you're going to have to abort you biking plans for the weekend?
Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by chimblysweep:
<img src="http://photos.friendster.com/photos/90/37/267309/1686712940088s.jpg" alt=" - " />
more bike talk needed!
I agree! Let's change the subject because it's such a polarizing one.
I bought a new road bike....just before I broke my friggin wrist, and have only taken it out once for a quick 20 miler....can't wait to take it out for a longer ride soon. I was hoping this Sunday but my wife is away so it's a dad and boy weekend. Maybe next week or I'll pull a sickie next week if the weather is nice. [/b]
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Perhaps she can get to the bottom of this GGW. Did anyone else find it uncanny that wherever this old biddy went, someone died?
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/~rexoman/angela/img00004.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by thirsty moore:
Perhaps she can get to the bottom of this GGW. Did anyone else find it uncanny that wherever this old biddy went, someone died?
What's uncanny is the number of murders that must have occurred in the sleepy little hamlet of Cabot Cove -- without anybody finding it unusual.
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Originally posted by bunnyballs:
Does that mean you're going to have to abort you biking plans for the weekend?
Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by chimblysweep:
<img src="http://photos.friendster.com/photos/90/37/267309/1686712940088s.jpg" alt=" - " />
more bike talk needed!
I agree! Let's change the subject because it's such a polarizing one.
I bought a new road bike....just before I broke my friggin wrist, and have only taken it out once for a quick 20 miler....can't wait to take it out for a longer ride soon. I was hoping this Sunday but my wife is away so it's a dad and boy weekend. Maybe next week or I'll pull a sickie next week if the weather is nice. [/b]
[/b]
Unfortunately no biking at all this weekend, he's only 15 months old...and seeing as I broke my wrist falling of my mtn bike, my wife frowns on the idea of me taking him with me, not that I would enjoy that to be honest anyway.
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Originally posted by thirsty moore:
Perhaps she can get to the bottom of this GGW. Did anyone else find it uncanny that wherever this old biddy went, someone died?
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/~rexoman/angela/img00004.jpg" alt=" - " />
Doesn't she now make videos about healthy sex lives for retirees...and NO I don't have the video.
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Originally posted by mankie:
Doesn't she now make videos about healthy sex lives for retirees...and NO I don't have the video.
Dropping hints for your birthday present again, Mankie? Tut tut!
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by thirsty moore:
Perhaps she can get to the bottom of this GGW. Did anyone else find it uncanny that wherever this old biddy went, someone died?
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/~rexoman/angela/img00004.jpg" alt=" - " />
Doesn't she now make videos about healthy sex lives for retirees. [/b]
What a mature man like yourself does for entertainment when his wife is out of town is none of our business, Mankie.
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Groundkeeper Willie would happily fuck her.
Originally posted by thirsty moore:
Perhaps she can get to the bottom of this GGW. Did anyone else find it uncanny that wherever this old biddy went, someone died?
<img src="http://www.geocities.com/~rexoman/angela/img00004.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by chimblysweep:
What next, the fetus has more rights than the mother? Gosh, you know, in Utah, it may just happen... [/b]
The fetus should have the same rights as the mother, and if the choice is DEATH or a scar then who's need is greater? [/b]
Please don't ask that question of Farrah Fawcett (http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/)!
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
The foetus does not have the same rights as the mother. Late term abortions, right up until the last minute are allowed if they endanger the life of the mother.
At what point do you think the foetus should have the same rights as the mother?
At or about age 26.
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Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
Please don't ask that question of Farrah Fawcett (http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/)!
That is the greatest website....Farrah is TRULY scary, white woman Michael Jackson territory.
And I agree, Chris Noth was more handsome before.
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Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
Originally posted by mark e smith:
The foetus does not have the same rights as the mother. Late term abortions, right up until the last minute are allowed if they endanger the life of the mother.
At what point do you think the foetus should have the same rights as the mother?
At or about age 26. [/b]
Or if the fetus is female, when the fetus becomes pregnant so the food chain can start all over again.
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Originally posted by Bags:
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
Please don't ask that question of Farrah Fawcett (http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/)!
That is the greatest website....Farrah is TRULY scary, white woman Michael Jackson territory.
And I agree, Chris Noth was more handsome before. [/b]
What's the deal with Farrah's schnoz? Two nostrils good! Four legs bad! I wonder how Lee Majors is holding up surgery-wise..?
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
Originally posted by mark e smith:
The foetus does not have the same rights as the mother. Late term abortions, right up until the last minute are allowed if they endanger the life of the mother.
At what point do you think the foetus should have the same rights as the mother?
At or about age 26. [/b]
Or if the fetus is female, when the fetus becomes pregnant so the food chain can start all over again. [/b]
The real issue here is not abortion or murder...it's stem cells. Yummy gummy chewy gooey stem cells.
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Luckily my commute gives me 25 miles a week free. That helps
25!!! ya big wimp - try doin 100 miles a week commuting :)
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Originally posted by brennser:
Luckily my commute gives me 25 miles a week free. That helps
25!!! ya big wimp - try doin 100 miles a week commuting :) [/b]
Yeah, I bet your back aches after that and gardening on top. :roll:
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YOWZER!!!!!!
This is her, she must've gotten boxed from a toilet seat because there's no way I can imagine a bloke putting his wee-wee in that.
<img src="http://a1040.g.akamai.net/f/1040/759/1h/pic.infospace.com/:6:vzn.dsl/thumb_UTSAC10103112353.jpg" alt=" - " />