930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Thousand Made-Up Loves on November 01, 2023, 04:32:46 pm
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Disappointing to see Seth and IMP mentioned in the disturbing debate over venues taking a cut of merchandise sales from touring artists. I thought that was something Live Nation did and not IMP. How wrong I was.
Even worse to see the Black Cat mentioned as NOT taking a cut of merchandise sales while Seth and IMP is the most militant.
https://pitchfork.com/features/article/artist-merch-cuts-venues/
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I guess you missed the whole rabbit debacle?
The fact that a band is playing your venue does not entitle them to come and conduct commerce on your property
What if they decided to try and sell groceries, or rabbits, or whatever they’d like because “people wouldn’t be here if we weren’t playing”
People wouldn’t be there if we didn’t build the venue either
We’re all in this together…all of the income streams like merch and bar and ticket fees go towards paying the band
I have always found that people accusing others of trying to make money are only upset because they want that money themselves
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I guess you missed the whole rabbit debacle?
The fact that a band is playing your venue does not entitle them to come and conduct commerce on your property
What if they decided to try and sell groceries, or rabbits, or whatever they’d like because “people wouldn’t be here if we weren’t playing”
People wouldn’t be there if we didn’t build the venue either
We’re all in this together…all of the income streams like merch and bar and ticket fees go towards paying the band
I have always found that people accusing others of trying to make money are only upset because they want that money themselves
Classic.
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Interesting article
That’s some crazy if it started with DC straight edge!
“Militaristic” seems like the wrong word…maybe “scrupulous”?
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Admittedly I had a few years off from the board, but based on the last time Seth was in the news, I wasn't sure what I'd find in this thread!
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First off I am saying this in a personal capacity.
I just find this a bit silly. When you agree to play a venue you know the terms. Nobody is forcing anyone to play IMP venues …in fact judging by bookings at Atlantis it’s full of smaller acts (the kinds of acts that need merch income the most) wanting to play there…I don’t think any IMP venue has booked more shows in the past month and it’s not close.
At least in the DC area there are a lot of alternatives for venues.
But what I really wanted to say is isn’t money fungible at the end of the day? Would it make people happier if IMP adjusted other income levers for bands? Also, don’t headliners reach agreement with opening acts on $ and terms for openers? If getting 100% of the merch is a priority then don’t open for bands that play venues that take a cut.
It just seems like bands agree to play venues, then get there and want to debate the merch policy? If the merch policy is a big deal then bands need to make it a priority before agreeing to play a venue or agreeing to be an opening act! If enough acts make it a deal then the promoter will need to make adjustments.
And as far as 930 the merch booth is an area that could fit more people. It’s valuable real estate. It’s pretty nice for fans to be able to get merch there: unmissable and you can still be at show. Compare to other venues where the merch is outside the live room or further removed from the action. Don’t bands benefit from fact hundreds of fans stream out by merch stand and see the goodies? Don’t they sell more and make up or more for venue cut?
I guess what I am saying is things are a bit more complex than might appear at first glance. Just looking at the cut percentage in isolation is misleading.
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But what I really wanted to say is isn’t money fungible at the end of the day?
Known barter system enthusiast, Hutch, weighs in.
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Your argument is valid, it is just disappointing that everyone tries to get a cut of the band's potential income or the consumer's hard earned dollars where ever possible. Convenience fees, promoters portion of merch sales, dynamic pricing, yada yada yada. The "it's a business" excuse is just a lame rationale for screwing the talent and the customers, which is always followed by if you don't like it, don't buy a ticket etc.
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But what I really wanted to say is isn’t money fungible at the end of the day?
Known barter system enthusiast, Hutch, weighs in.
It’s not barter if you’re getting the money through a different concert income stream, right?
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But what I really wanted to say is isn’t money fungible at the end of the day?
Known barter system enthusiast, Hutch, weighs in.
Wait did you think I was referring to the 930 cupcakes as a revenue stream?
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Everything that needed to be said in this thread has been said, but I was really hoping there was going to be a mention of a facility off of Rockville Pike somewhere...
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But what I really wanted to say is isn’t money fungible at the end of the day?
Known barter system enthusiast, Hutch, weighs in.
It’s not barter if you’re getting the money through a different concert income stream, right?
I’m literally just making a joke that calling money fungible indicates the door is open to trading goods and services for other goods and services. I’m not suggesting anything about this situation in real life.
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Lol I missed this part before
all of the income streams like merch and bar and ticket fees go towards paying the band
"We have to take a cut of the profits you'd make off of selling your merch...how else could we pay you?"
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I guess you missed the whole rabbit debacle?
The fact that a band is playing your venue does not entitle them to come and conduct commerce on your property
What if they decided to try and sell groceries, or rabbits, or whatever they’d like because “people wouldn’t be here if we weren’t playing”
People wouldn’t be there if we didn’t build the venue either
We’re all in this together…all of the income streams like merch and bar and ticket fees go towards paying the band
I have always found that people accusing others of trying to make money are only upset because they want that money themselves
I did miss this. So disappointing. Good for Dante for not pulling this.
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I don’t know…I am a big believer in user fees….whoever uses something pays… It’s more transparent than shifting the cost to something else…
Think of it this way: you have two bands. One has merch and the other doesn’t…why should the band that doesn’t sell merch pay the same as the one that doesn’t? Cause it’s not like IMP knows who is going to sell merch ahead of time so it would take the same amount of $ from some other revenue stream (from both bands) instead of directly from merch.
Because it is a business…and hundreds of people depend on IMP for their paychecks. And it’s easy to say the “big evil corporation making the huge profit “ but ain’t none of us seen the books….I think.
And bands complaining about counting shirts or what have you? How else would you do it? Once you are charging commission or cut you have to count them to know what the commission , taxes etc are. So to me it sounds kind of sketchy to hear bands complaining about this…
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Admittedly I had a few years off from the board, but based on the last time Seth was in the news, I wasn't sure what I'd find in this thread!
my same thought, was apprehensive to open this thread
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All I can contribute is that I have a number of friends who are musicians who are not finding it sustainable to tour. The business is getting more challenging for them, and at a certain point if they can't make money on merch, it doesn't make sense for them to go out on the road. Independent labels are no longer fronting some legacy bands with money to record new records. I understand that it's easier for newer bands who can get a ton of streams, but it remains to be seen how long labels will invest in them. The cost of renting vans, trailers, gas, hotels, etc. make the economics of touring more complicated and tricky. Merch is one of the last fallbacks for musicians, and I'm glad that the article mentions those things because I'm hearing about it more and more. Bethany from Best Coast made a great new LP, and she can't afford to tour behind it or promote it. It is not out of the realm of possibility that we will see some bands not touring as much, so it shouldn't be a surprise. The numbers have to make sense for them to go out and play. And ultimately, that could hurt promoters too. Having nights where a venue is dark probably doesn't help the costs for operating it and keeping it open.
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So here is what I don’t get… Pretty much rock bottom price for shirts for shows I go to is $25.
How much does it cost to make that shirt, transport or mail it, etc?
Am I crazy to think you can make a shirt for a few bucks if you place a large order?
Am I to understand this is not profitable if a venue takes 20% like they been doing forever?
What are we defending here? Acts ripping off their fans on t shirt sales? Because when I see a t shirt on sale at a show for $35 or even $40 I think ripoff not thank god the band is selling shirts at insane prices. I guess the counterpoint is that if the venue wasn’t taking 20% that shirt might maybe be $30.
There are always bands for whom touring isn’t going to be profitable. Acts that were popular a long time ago and whose fanbase has shrunk are going to struggle. And maybe they can’t tour but isn’t that the market dictating things?
One last thing… I noticed a few applauding the black cat. Has anyone noticed how many nights they don’t have acts playing whereas 930/Atlantis always have something (admittedly “parties” sometimes but same at Cat)? If the merch policy is so critical to bands and the Black Car doesn’t take the 20% cut why aren’t bands flocking to play there? They have 11 shows scheduled for November and 8 in December.
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So here is what I don’t get… Pretty much rock bottom price for shirts for shows I go to is $25.
How much does it cost to make that shirt, transport or mail it, etc?
Am I crazy to think you can make a shirt for a few bucks if you place a large order?
Am I to understand this is not profitable if a venue takes 20% like they been doing forever?
What are we defending here? Acts ripping off their fans on t shirt sales? Because when I see a t shirt on sale at a show for $35 or even $40 I think ripoff not thank god the band is selling shirts at insane prices. I guess the counterpoint is that if the venue wasn’t taking 20% that shirt might maybe be $30.
There are always bands for whom touring isn’t going to be profitable. Acts that were popular a long time ago and whose fanbase has shrunk are going to struggle. And maybe they can’t tour but isn’t that the market dictating things?
One last thing… I noticed a few applauding the black cat. Has anyone noticed how many nights they don’t have acts playing whereas 930/Atlantis always have something (admittedly “parties” sometimes but same at Cat)? If the merch policy is so critical to bands and the Black Car doesn’t take the 20% cut why aren’t bands flocking to play there? They have 11 shows scheduled for November and 8 in December.
Unless you're buying piece of shit shirts that look like you're wearing a cardboard box, even when buying in bulk, $10ish is about the lowest it goes... that does not inclue shipping, other charges, etc.
Now if you want 10,000 shirts printed in china, that's probably another story.
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Ok good to know… then maybe profit margins aren’t as big as I thought..
Touring for bands starting out has never been easy…read the Replacements bio…oh and they refused to sell merch for years… it’s always grind it out when you are coming up….read the Grohl autobiography about touring with Scream, Rollins’ Get in the van, etc
Heck read about the Beatles in Hamburg!!