930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: JohnnyBaconbitz on September 21, 2005, 09:39:00 am
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Does anyone have an idea of when Ted Leo will be going on Saturday?
I only have a finite amount of time that I can spend at the event, and want to be sure that I get to check out his set.
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Ted Leo goes on at 7:54
Operation: Ceasefire (http://www.opceasefire.org/)
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couresty ggw(tm) aka google gone wild
The Operation Ceasefire performer schedule is as follows:
2:05 PM - Machetres
2:30 PM - Living Things
3:18 PM - Joan Baez
3:50 PM - Wayne Kramer and the Bellrays
4:41 PM - Steve Earle
5:31 PM - The Coup
6:23 PM - Sweet Honey in the Rock
7:09 PM - The Evens
7:54 PM - Ted Leo+Pharmacists
8:50 PM - Head Roc
9:37 PM - Thievery Corporation
10:59 PM - Pure Belly Dance
11:27 PM - Bouncing Souls
12:12 AM - Le Tigre
The following speakers will appear between the musical acts: host Jello Biafra, Co-Founder of Gold Star Families for Peace Cindy Sheehan, Representative Lynn Woolsey, Washington Wizard Forward Etan Thomas, Former State Department Officer Ann Wright, national radio commentator Jim Hightower, Fernando Suarez del Solar of Gold Star Families, Reverend Graylan Hagler, Cindy Corrie, Mother of peace activist Rachel Corrie who was killed in the West Bank, Code Pink and Global Exchange Co-Founder Medea Benjamin, the DC Guerilla Poets, Investigative Journalist Greg Palast, Iraq Vets Against the War Co- Founder Michael Hoffman, Anti-Flag drummer Pat Thetic and more.
http://www.opceasefire.org/ (http://www.opceasefire.org/)
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7:54 huh! That's pretty exact. He's ninth to go on stage, and with all the speakers in between you probably won't see him till close to 9 at the earliest.
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Originally posted by Roadbike Mankie:
7:54 huh! That's pretty exact. He's ninth to go on stage, and with all the speakers in between you probably won't see him till close to 9 at the earliest.
Speakers or Whiners?
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Speakers or Whiners? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Terrorists or freedom fighters?
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Boxers or briefs?
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Chicks or dicks?
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Originally posted by El Jefe:
Chicks with dicks?
Now you leave bad sushi out of this!
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Something tells me this is not the weekend for Steve Earle to do this song:
Artist/Band: Earle Steve
Lyrics for Song: Home To Houston
Lyrics for Album: Revolution Starts Now
When I pulled out of Basra they all wished me luck
Just like they always did before
With a bulletproof screen on the hood of my truck
And a Bradley on my back door
And I wound her up and shifted her down
And I offered this prayer to my lord
I said ??God get me back home to Houston alive
and I won??t drive a truck anymore?
Early in the mornin?? and I??m rollin?? fast
Haulin?? nine thousand gallons of high test gas
Sergeant on the radio hollerin?? at me
Look out up ahead here come a R.P.G.
If I ever get home to Houston alive
Then I won??t drive a truck anymore
I??ve driven the big rigs for all of my life
And my radio handle??s ??Train?
Down steep mountain roads on the darkest of nights
I had ice water in my veins
And I come over here ??cause I just didn??t care
Now I??m older and wiser by far
If I ever get home to Houston alive
Then I won??t drive a truck anymore
Great God A??mighty what was wrong with me
I know the money??s good but buddy can??t you see
You can??t take it with you and that ain??t no lie
I don??t wanna let ??em get me I??m too young to die
If I ever get home to Houston alive
Then I won??t drive a truck anymore
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bump applied
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but he did do this song...
Jimmy joined the army ??cause he had no place to go
There ain??t nobody hirin??
??round here since all the jobs went
down to Mexico
Reckoned that he??d learn himself a trade maybe see the world
Move to the city someday and marry a black haired girl
Somebody somewhere had another plan
Now he??s got a rifle in his hand
Rollin?? into Baghdad wonderin?? how he got this far
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man??s war
Bobby had an eagle and a flag tattooed on his arm
Red white and blue to the bone when he landed in Kandahar
Left behind a pretty young wife and a baby girl
A stack of overdue bills and went off to save the world
Been a year now and he??s still there
Chasin?? ghosts in the thin dry air
Meanwhile back at home the finance company took his car
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man??s war
When will we ever learn
When will we ever see
We stand up and take our turn
And keep tellin?? ourselves we??re free
Ali was the second son of a second son
Grew up in Gaza throwing bottles and rocks when the tanks would come
Ain??t nothin?? else to do around here just a game children play
Somethin?? ??bout livin?? in fear all your life makes you hard that way
He answered when he got the call
Wrapped himself in death and praised Allah
A fat man in a new Mercedes drove him to the door
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man??s war
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God is pro-war (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36859).
<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050924/i/r224384797.jpg?" alt=" - " />
...Anyone going to the pro-war festivities today?
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oh, yes, the pro-war festivities.
you might be there with all the ones of people that attended.
yesterday's pro-PEACE rally was great, though :)
how was le tigre?
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
God is pro-war (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36859).
<img src="http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050924/i/r224384797.jpg?" alt=" - " />
...Anyone going to the pro-war festivities today?
is that ex-lsu coach nick saban under the texas seal?
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<img src="http://www.nfl.com/images/nflnetwork/NickSaban_sign_010405_240x200.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Peace rally draws 100,000 (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/24/antiwar.ap/index.html)
Meanwhile...
About 400 people gathered near a stage on an eastern segment of the mall, a large patchwork American flag serving as a backdrop. Amid banners and signs proclaiming support for U.S. troops, several speakers hailed the effort to bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan and denounced those who protest it. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/25/war.rally.ap/index.html)
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Numbers don't lie. Intelligent people congregate in small groups.
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First of all, I support the troops as individuals who are in a very dangerous and unpleasant place - I hope they all come home safely.
But to those who say the troops in Iraq are protecting our rights and our freedom.....remind me again how these things were being threatened by Iraq? I must have missed that news story....
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I support the war in Afghanistan (http://www.kkmime.org/). As for Iraq, well Al-Qaeda is officially there now. They didn't refuse our invitation.
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I don't need to waste my time like all those stupid, so called peace protesters, hanging out in front of the white house. You think this nation is gonna say "Oh Gee look, dumbass Cindy wants our troops back, ok everybody, come on home".....LOL....What a waste of life she is....She needs to join her son......soon. Then he'll beat her ass for embarrassing him and the unit he fought for.
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I don't need to waste my time like all those stupid, so called peace protesters, hanging out in front of the white house. You think this nation is gonna say "Oh Gee look, dumbass Cindy wants our troops back, ok everybody, come on home".....LOL....What a waste of life she is....She needs to join her son......soon. Then he'll beat her ass for embarrassing him and the unit he fought for.
I'm not an easily offended person, but come on man, regardless of your politics this is over the line. No matter what her politics are, she still lost a son in this war, and that gives her more right to say something than any of us have. Since when is an active stance and doing something about it through grassroots politics a waste of life? So she disagrees with you and has the guts to do something about it. Deal with it.
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Umm have you looked at the most recent poll numbers? Support for this war is at ann all-time low. Seems like she's done a lot to help the public realize how unnecessary this war is.
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I don't need to waste my time like all those stupid, so called peace protesters, hanging out in front of the white house. You think this nation is gonna say "Oh Gee look, dumbass Cindy wants our troops back, ok everybody, come on home".....LOL....What a waste of life she is....She needs to join her son......soon. Then he'll beat her ass for embarrassing him and the unit he fought for.
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Originally posted by azaghal1981:
Umm have you looked at the most recent poll numbers? Support for this war is at ann all-time low. Seems like she's done a lot to help the public realize how unnecessary this war is.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Polls aren't always accurate due to the fact that alot of people don't waste their time with them. Did they poll every single person in the U.S.? I don't remember getting that call.
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Have you ever heard of sampling techniques?
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Originally posted by azaghal1981:
Umm have you looked at the most recent poll numbers? Support for this war is at ann all-time low. Seems like she's done a lot to help the public realize how unnecessary this war is.
[/b]
Polls aren't always accurate due to the fact that alot of people don't waste their time with them. Did they poll every single person in the U.S.? I don't remember getting that call. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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Originally posted by callat703:
I'm not an easily offended person, but come on man, regardless of your politics this is over the line. No matter what her politics are, she still lost a son in this war, and that gives her more right to say something than any of us have. Since when is an active stance and doing something about it through grassroots politics a waste of life? So she disagrees with you and has the guts to do something about it. Deal with it. [/QB]
Yes, I feel for the son, no doubt. He fought for our country so I have nothing but respect for him. I can just say, if it were me that died and my mother did this shit, there would be no doubt that I'd be waiting my ass at the front door to hell and bitch slap her when she arrived for embarrassing my memory. Than again, my Mom wouldnt do that.
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Yes, I feel for the son, no doubt. He fought for our country so I have nothing but respect for him. I can just say, if it were me that died and my mother did this shit, there would be no doubt that I'd be waiting my ass at the front door to hell and bitch slap her when she arrived for embarrassing my memory. Than again, my Mom wouldnt do that.
But it wasn't you that died. And it isn't your mom who is protesting. So really, where do you get off criticizing her for an honest reaction to her grief? Again, regardless of your politics, I think its pretty hard for anybody to criticize somebody for wanting answers when the cause of their question is the death of a son.
If you want to criticize people about the anti-war movement, I'd direct your criticism towards the thousands of people that were at the rallies this weekend who have no idea what they're protesting against. Those that don't understand the ramifications of pulling all of our troops out of Iraq immediately, or the folks calling for the impeachment of President Bush, or the populists and anarchists that have latched on to the anti-war message in an effort to promote their own agendas. The list goes on of people who protest who don't really understand what it is that they are protesting against; I can give them credit for their energy, but would urge them to become more informed. Extremism on either side of the aisle is a dangerous thing.
But to criticize a mother who lost her son? Calling her a waste of life? I think of all people, she's justified in questioning this war.
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Is she still demanding the withdrawal of federal troops from New Orleans?
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Originally posted by callat703:
Calling her a waste of life? I think of all people, she's justified in questioning this war. [/QB]
I was gonna call her trailer trash, but that was just too obvious. :D
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I was gonna call her trailer trash, but that was just too obvious. :D
A Bush voter calling anyone else trailer trash reeks of impropriety.
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Originally posted by callat703:
But it wasn't you that died. And it isn't your mom who is protesting. [/QB]
No, it wasn't me that died and like I said, I know my Mother would not blame someone else for my death when it wasn't that persons fault. My Mother would know that I went in the military for a reason and it wasn't for getting a college degree. My mother would know that there was a chance that I would fight and be killed. She would NOT have protested for that reason and even if there was a 1% chance of her doing that, my Father, Brother, cats and the rest of the family would stap her down to the bed just to make sure she didn't.
But I guess some people can handle things better than others.
So go ahead Cindy, waste your breath and the air we breath fighting for your cause.....I'll keep turning the channel when I see your ugly mug.
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impropriety
That's kind of unfair. Bush supporters don't understand "fancy" words like that...
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Bush voter calling anyone else trailer trash reeks of impropriety. [/QB][/QUOT
I didn't vote for Bush Einstein.
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How many fine young men aged 18-34 have been felled by crime in America's inner cities since 9/11? I'll bet it's waymore than 1900. But you don't hear any outcry for them.
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
How many fine young men aged 18-34 have been felled by crime in America's inner cities since 9/11? I'll bet it's waymore than 1900. But you don't hear any outcry for them.
Cindy Sheehan doesn't care about black people.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I didn't vote for Bush Einstein.
<img src="http://www.aref-adib.com/archives/bush_einstein.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I didn't vote for Bush Einstein.
Too drunk on Election Day or voted Libertarian? Oh, wait, no difference...
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How many fine young men aged 18-34 have been felled by crime in America's inner cities since 9/11? I'll bet it's waymore than 1900. But you don't hear any outcry for them.
This is probably true. The only way that I can answer that is that the deaths that have occurred in Iraq were part of a governmental decision to go to war there, and our continued presence there ensures that more people are apt to die there. The deaths that happen every day in our cities across the country are a part of our societal makeup and culture; its much easier to question why death happens when you can point to a specific cause (ie: war) versus identifying larger societal problems that lead to death - poverty, inequality, racism, and so forth.
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More like someone dumb enough to sign up for the military calling someone trailer trash reeks of impropriety.
Because ultimately, if you're so stupid that you VOLUNTARILY sign up for the military, you deserve whatever war your government sends you into.
Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I was gonna call her trailer trash, but that was just too obvious. :D
A Bush voter calling anyone else trailer trash reeks of impropriety. [/b]
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No, it wasn't me that died and like I said, I know my Mother would not blame someone else for my death when it wasn't that persons fault. My Mother would know that I went in the military for a reason and it wasn't for getting a college degree. My mother would know that there was a chance that I would fight and be killed. She would NOT have protested for that reason and even if there was a 1% chance of her doing that, my Father, Brother, cats and the rest of the family would stap her down to the bed just to make sure she didn't.
I think this is a rather egregious misunderstanding of why many people join the military. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of military enlistees join because the military provides a steady paycheck, fantastic training, and an opportunity to increase quality of life through continued education and military structure. I'm sure many military enlistees would invoke a grander sense of defending the country that lines up with the principles of our armed services, but I think ultimately the decision to join the military is preempted by self advancement and necessity - just like any other career decision that any person makes.
More like someone dumb enough to sign up for the military calling someone trailer trash reeks of impropriety.
Because ultimately, if you're so stupid that you VOLUNTARILY sign up for the military, you deserve whatever war your government sends you into.
Again, this isn't very fair. Sure, there are some people who join the military who have plenty of other avenues open to them; they do it for patriotism, or family tradition, or because they want to see the world. But what about the people who join because they don't have other career paths available to them? The kids who grow up in the inner city who want to get out and do something more than work as a mechanic, or enlist to escape gangs and violence? The mothers and fathers whose best opportunity to support their children and families is through the job security afforded by the military?
I doubt you'd find many military folks who joined for the express reason of going to war with Iraq. Of course, when you join the military there is a chance that you will go to fight, and with that chance, the chance that you will die. But the ultimate truth about our military is that the troops themselves do not decide where it is that they go, and what they are required to do. You said:
I know my Mother would not blame someone else for my death when it wasn't that persons fault.
Perhaps you are right in saying that it isn't the direct fault of the Bush administration, or of the government, for the deaths of our troops in Iraq. But like it or not, they are our decision makers - they decided that the war in Iraq was a national priority. And consequently, as the decision makers, they are the ones held accountable for the decisions that they've made.
So tell me, if the government doesn't have the answers for Cindy Sheehan and the other military families who have lost relatives, who does? It seems as though a simple question has been posed - what is the reason our soldiers continue to fight and die in Iraq? And what is the evidence for that reason?
That isn't an unreasonable question for anybody to ask this government; and it is especially reasonable if you're a grieving parent, husband, wife, brother, sister, son or daughter.
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Originally posted by Xavier Bush, Power Forward:
Because ultimately, if you're so stupid that you VOLUNTARILY sign up for the military, you deserve whatever war your government sends you into.
Well now that I agree with.
I don't get this whole "support the troops" bull. If I don't agree with the war, why would I support people who are fighting it? The people fighting the war either (a) agree with it, or (b) disagree with it, but are so morally devoid they think killing people for something they don't agree in is a better alternative then sitting in a jail cell until the end of their signup. Either way, you're scum as far as I'm concerned.
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So, how was the show?
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I pretty much only saw Thievery Corporation. And they were fantastic, as expected.
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Three words. DC Gorilla Poets.
And hearing Jello up there lisping away..."a group of 30 kick ath people known ath the Pure Belly Dantherth ith in the houth." was just priceless.
And Ted Leo was solid, though the sight of his legs in a pair of cutoff shorts was one I could do without.
Originally posted by dfmcpete:
So, how was the show?
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Well now that I agree with.
I don't get this whole "support the troops" bull. If I don't agree with the war, why would I support people who are fighting it? The people fighting the war either (a) agree with it, or (b) disagree with it, but are so morally devoid they think killing people for something they don't agree in is a better alternative then sitting in a jail cell until the end of their signup. Either way, you're scum as far as I'm concerned. [/QB]
Wow, I'm speechless. Whoever said I was over the line definetely hasn't read this yet.
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Wow, I'm speechless. Whoever said I was over the line definetely hasn't read this yet.
Yeah, that was pretty ridiculous too. But I feel like I basically responded to it in my previous post.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Wow, I'm speechless.
It's a shame you're not speechless all the time.
It makes perfect sense: if a soldier agrees with the war, and I disagree with the war, why should I "support" him? No US soldier fighting in Iraq has no alternative. They choose to kill people either because they feel the cause is just or because they feel the personal cost to themself of not doing so outweighs killing people, which in my mind is inconcievable.
If Country A invades Country B for no reason, and the world (and myself personally is outraged at that), why would I cheer for Country A's troops?
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Originally posted by callat703:
Yeah, that was pretty ridiculous too.
How so?
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It makes perfect sense: if a soldier agrees with the war, and I disagree with the war, why should I "support" him? If Country A invades Country B for no reason, and the world (and myself personally is outraged at that), why would I cheer for Country A's troops?
Okay; there is a difficulty in this, because saying you don't support the troops is like a guaranteed way to have your patriotism questioned.
I understand the point you're making. But the thing that you have to keep in mind is that the troops themselves have no say in whether or not they go to fight, or who they go to fight. They follow orders. While I understand what you're saying philosophically, about "sit in a jail cell" if you disagree with the premise of what you're fighting for, this is really kind of ridiculous if you think about it. These aren't drones that simply exist on principle - they're people who have families and lives to support. Principle is a great thing, but if it means costing you your job, welfare, and future (a dishonorable discharge from the military is just about a guarantee that you're going to have a very hard time getting a job in the future), it becomes a little more difficult.
You can support the troops without supporting the war because the troops didn't decide to be there. They're there, and they're following orders, and they don't really have a choice in the matter. If they support the war as individuals, yes, feel free to disagree with them. But ultimately, the people to hold accountable for these opinions are not the troops, but the leadership that instills these beliefs, and orders troops to follow through on them.
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Yes they did. They decided on it when they signed up for the military. They knew full well that they were signing up for whatever war their country got into. They knew full well that they wouldn't be able to hand pick their war. Nobody was holding a gun to their head saying, I'ts not like the were drafted into the military.
Originally posted by callat703:
future), it becomes a little more difficult.
You can support the troops without supporting the war because the troops didn't decide to be there. [/b]
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Originally posted by callat703:
Okay; there is a difficulty in this, because saying you don't support the troops is like a guaranteed way to have your patriotism questioned.
So? I'm not running for office. What do I care?
Originally posted by callat703:
While I understand what you're saying philosophically, about "sit in a jail cell" if you disagree with the premise of what you're fighting for, this is really kind of ridiculous if you think about it. These aren't drones that simply exist on principle - they're people who have families and lives to support. Principle is a great thing, but if it means costing you your job, welfare, and future (a dishonorable discharge from the military is just about a guarantee that you're going to have a very hard time getting a job in the future), it becomes a little more difficult.
I can fully understand the difficulties with going AWOL or whatever technical term we'd want to associate with actions like I'm saying, but as bad as that is, I think we'd all have to cop to that fact that it's better then being dead. I can understand working for a company you personally abhor to make money for your family - totally get it. But killing people so that "I don't have to have to get a dishonorable discharge and my wife won't have to work 2 jobs for a while" seems an unequal balance. If principles over not killing people aren't worth standing up for, what is? Many religious groups members (Jehovah's Witnesses, et al) HAVE sat in jail for years to avoid killing people.
Should Nazi soldiers and concentration camp officers been given a free pass because "gee, they were up against alot; they would have been jailed if they didn't fight!"
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Very well said.
Also, if you disagree with something that you don't think is right at your job, do you quit? If so, then you must have held about 500 jobs in your lifetime. Otherwise you are doing the job that your boss told you to do so you can make a living, that's exactly what our troops are doing. Noone can fault them for following orders and like callat703 said, a dishonorable discharge is like throwing your life away. Unless you win the lottery of course. :D
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Guess what? You need to thank the people that sign up for the military or else your ass might have been volunteered by the government to either go over there and fight or rot in jail for a few years, instead of writing and disrespecting our troops.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Also, if you disagree with something that you don't think is right at your job, do you quit? If so, then you must have held about 500 jobs in your lifetime. Otherwise you are doing the job that your boss told you to do so you can make a living, that's exactly what our troops are doing.
There's levels on things. If I was morally dead set against staplers getting replaced, and that was the be and end all of human existance, yes, I guess I would switch jobs. But we're not talking petty office politics like I mentioned in my previous posts, we're talking killing people and conquering soverign nations. I would assume you could see the difference.
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Noone can fault them for following orders and like callat703 said, a dishonorable discharge is like throwing your life away.
So they throw someone else's life away. Actually yes, I can fault them for following that order; much like I'd fault Nazi concentration camp officers for gassing the jews. "Hey, they were just following orders!"
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Guess what? You need to thank the people that sign up for the military or else your ass might have been volunteered by the government to either go over there and fight or rot in jail for a few years, instead of writing and disrespecting our troops.
Guess what? If the troops all refused to go, there'd be no war. A draft would cost the Republican party the next five presidency's, it never would have happened.
Oh, and just for argument's sake, had there been one, I gladly would have rot in jail for a few years. The thought of killing people for no reason is far more egregious then sitting in jail. I hate to be cliched and religious, but could you actually imagine Jesus faced with killing people or sitting in jail, he'd go kill people? Seriously?
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Yes they did. They decided on it when they signed up for the military. They knew full well that they were signing up for whatever war their country got into. They knew full well that they wouldn't be able to hand pick their war. Nobody was holding a gun to their head saying, I'ts not like the were drafted into the military.
I assume this is what Rob_Gee was applauding.
Yes, this is the truth; and it supports what I'm saying. This is the reason we can support the troops without supporting the war - it ultimately doesn't matter what their personal viewpoint on the war is, because they don't have a say in it apart from their own votes in general elections like any other citizen.
Now, if you're anti-military in general, or anti-war in general, which seems to be the point that Julian is making, then I can't really answer to that apart from what I've already said.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
But we're not talking petty office politics like I mentioned in my previous posts, we're talking killing people and conquering soverign nations. I would assume you could see the difference.
[/QB]
Yeah, I wrote this as you were writing your response. Sorry.
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Originally posted by callat703:
because they don't have a say in it apart from their own votes in general elections like any other citizen.
That's blatantly untrue. You act like the second they joined the military, they became a robot, devoid of thought and reason. Any US soldier over there can CHOOSE at any time to be shipped back here and sit in Fort Levenworth for a few. They choose not to, for one of various reasons, which I've highlighted already.
Certainly, that wouldn't stop THE WAR as a whole, but it'd stop THEIR PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT in it, which is what I applaud or boo people on.
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So they throw someone else's life away. Actually yes, I can fault them for following that order; much like I'd fault Nazi concentration camp officers for gassing the jews. "Hey, they were just following orders!"
Like you said, there are levels on things. A soldier following orders, and killing somebody to prevent himself from being killed, is far, far different than Nazi concentration camps. Not even in the same realm.
Not everybody is 100 percent morally opposed to killing people - especially in war, certain causes are seen as justification for killing people. In this case, our government has decided that the justification is the liberation of the Iraqi people.
But if you are in the military, and don't have a viable choice of whether or not you go to Iraq to fight (sitting in a jail cell isn't a viable choice for most people), and it is either kill somebody or be killed, I think we ultimately know what the decision is going to be.
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Originally posted by callat703:
I assume this is what Rob_Gee was applauding.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Actually, I was applauding what you wrote, he just snuck an entry in between mine and yours.
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Originally posted by callat703:
(sitting in a jail cell isn't a viable choice for most people),
Oh really? Given the choice between me shooting you in the head or sitting in jail for five years, which would you choose? It's a viable choice then. But given the choice between having to shoot someone else in the head or sitting in jail for five years, then it's not? Intriguing.
I think that says more about how much we value other people's lives then anything else.
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That's blatantly untrue. You act like the second they joined the military, they became a robot, devoid of thought and reason. Any US soldier over there can CHOOSE at any time to be shipped back here and sit in Fort Levenworth for a few. They choose not to, for one of various reasons, which I've highlighted already.
Certainly, that wouldn't stop THE WAR as a whole, but it'd stop THEIR PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT in it, which is what I applaud or boo people on.
Yes, but like I keep saying, this isn't a viable option for most people. And it isn't just because they're a "robot." These men and women have loyalties to each other as well - for those that can afford to stand on principle and oppose the war, there are countless others of their fellow soldiers who cannot - and standing on principle would force you to abandon those loyalties.
The military is a fraternity that we can't possibly begin to understand or appreciate if we're not involved in it - the relationships and loyalties developed there are probably more intense than any we'll ever have.
But given the choice between having to shoot someone else in the head or sitting in jail for five years, then it's not? Intriguing.
I think that says more about how much we value other people's lives then anything else.
The choice isn't this simplistic; you've reduced it too far. The choice is based on far more things than just this - lets expand on it.
"Given the choice between having to shoot someone else in the head, or have them shoot you in the head? Given the choice between having to shoot someone else in the head, or have your family go without food and housing? Given the choice between having to shoot someone else in the head, or have your best friend shot in the head? Given the choice to between having to shoot someone else in the head, or abandon everything else in your future that you've worked for (see above mention of dishonorable discharge)?"
I could go on, but shouldn't have to.
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Originally posted by callat703:
"Given the choice between having to shoot someone else in the head, or have them shoot you in the head?
I think we can all agree that would be justified.
Originally posted by callat703:
Given the choice between having to shoot someone else in the head, or have your family go without food and housing?
Irrelative because it's entirely unrealistic. It's not a logical reasonable conclusion that your family will starve and be evicted if you go to jail. As loathe as we might find hyper-liberals, the second someone did what I was suggesting if it turned out like you're saying, contribution funds and the like would come up from the Michael Moore's of the world.
The more authentic question is "given the choice between shooting someone in the head or endure financial hardship temporarily and diminished future earnings". Um, yeah...
Originally posted by callat703:
Given the choice between having to shoot someone else in the head, or have your best friend shot in the head?
Defense of others. Again, though, has zero to do with this situation.
Originally posted by callat703:
Given the choice to between having to shoot someone else in the head, or abandon everything else in your future that you've worked for (see above mention of dishonorable discharge)?"
See my above. Some people are poor and live on the streets - should they be able to kill people to take their wallet?
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Some people are poor and live on the streets - should they be able to kill people to take their wallet? [/QB]
No, they just blame Bush for being poor.
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My point was not to give specific rationale for killing somebody; the point was to show that you're reducing your argument too far. It isn't accurate to simply define the choice as "this or this." There are far too many other considerations at play here - you can't throw out the other factors. I'm not saying that its a direct choice between one or the other - I'm saying there is a sum of factors that play into your choice to sit in jail on principle, all of which I isolated for sake of argument and diction.
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Originally posted by callat703:
My point was not to give specific rationale for killing somebody; the point was to show that you're reducing your argument too far. It isn't accurate to simply define the choice as "this or this." There are far too many other considerations at play here - you can't throw out the other factors. I'm not saying that its a direct choice between one or the other - I'm saying there is a sum of factors that play into your choice to sit in jail on principle, all of which I isolated for sake of argument and diction.
I understand there's a sum of factors that need considered, but it's my assertation that no collection of financial/job concerns qualify as reason enough to kill someone.
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But I'm saying that it isn't purely financial - its also related to personal relationships, ties, loyalties, and self-preservation; plus, we haven't even touched on grander principles of honor and integrity.
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Originally posted by callat703:
But I'm saying that it isn't purely financial - its also related to personal relationships, ties, loyalties, and self-preservation; plus, we haven't even touched on grander principles of honor and integrity.
LOL. This is pointless. The mere fact you think honor, loyalty, or integrity don't lie entirely on the side of the "not killing people" side of the fence renders this whole thing prosaic.
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People join the military for adventure.
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Is that why the dolphins (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1577753,00.html) joined?
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The Army does more by 9 a.m. then most of us do all week.
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Originally posted by MTB-Markie:
Is that why the dolphins (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1577753,00.html) joined?
They were drafted.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
The Army does more dolphins by 9 a.m. then most of us do all week.
<img src="http://centurionweb.co.za/fun/products/dolphin-camera.jpg" alt=" - " />
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i know this is way off the subject and all, but how was operation cease fire? did anything change in our country because of it? did jello realize that freedom of expression isn't free. how much was bottled water? or the egg rolls, pizza, and big pretzels by street side vendors who sell american pride shirts, but they don't speak american beyond "two for twenty-five." were the slaves there for the message, or for the le tigre show. god, i love them girls. i want to be their mojo jojo!
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Polls aren't always accurate due to the fact that alot of people don't waste their time with them. Did they poll every single person in the U.S.? I don't remember getting that call.
ummm ... you're stupid. really stupid.
i have a couple of books on survey methodology if you want to borrow them, they're really enlightening.
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Originally posted by HoyaParanoia:
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Polls aren't always accurate due to the fact that alot of people don't waste their time with them. Did they poll every single person in the U.S.? I don't remember getting that call.
ummm ... you're stupid. really stupid.
i have a couple of books on survey methodology if you want to borrow them, they're really enlightening. [/b]
If I'm stupid, how am I supposed to read them? Talk about a stupid post.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
If I'm stupid, how am I supposed to read them? Talk about a stupid post.
shit!! you got me!!!
curses!
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So the bitch just got arrested in front of the White House. What a great example she's setting for our children. "It's bad when our troops break the law but It's ok for me to".......LOL....What a joke she is.
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Originally posted by HoyaParanoia:
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
If I'm stupid, how am I supposed to read them? Talk about a stupid post.
shit!! you got me!!!
curses! [/b]
Hey, good luck at fantasy baseball ok? :D
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
What a great example she's setting for our children. "It's bad when our troops break the law but It's ok for me to".......LOL....
Actually I must agree with the illiterate idiot on this point.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
What a great example she's setting for our children. "It's bad when our troops break the law but It's ok for me to".......LOL....
Actually I must agree with the illiterate idiot on this point. [/b]
Wrong spelling for "to"?
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
So the bitch just got arrested in front of the White House. What a great example she's setting for our children. "It's bad when our troops break the law but It's ok for me to".......LOL....What a joke she is.
So then you must not agree with one of our founding principles, Free Speech? First Amendment? Calling her "the bitch" and saying she should die....Only people who agree with you are valid? People who are willing to take a stand are BAD examples for our children?
Sheesh, I love when Republicans absolutely hate principles this country was founded upon. We all should have stayed in England and kept our mouths shut and suffered under British rule.
I don't agree with everything she's doing, but fuck, if we have soldiers willing to kill and die to free Iraq and bring democracy there, then we should at least support those same rights in this country.
P.S. Has hell frozen over for anyone else? I agree with Rhett on this thread. Will wonders never cease....
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Originally posted by Arlette:
Sheesh, I love when Republicans absolutely hate principles this country was founded upon. We all should have stayed in England and kept our mouths shut and suffered under British rule.
i thought rob said he wasn't republican. . .or at least didn't vote for bush.
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by Arlette:
Sheesh, I love when Republicans absolutely hate principles this country was founded upon. We all should have stayed in England and kept our mouths shut and suffered under British rule.
i thought rob said he wasn't republican. . .or at least didn't vote for bush. [/b]
I said both. Good memory.
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Originally posted by Arlette:
So then you must not agree with one of our founding principles, Free Speech?
What does free speech have to do with the "right" to blockade a building? The police would have no problem with her and her people marching around the building and speaking their mind, but the law says you can't just stand there. If I was your neighbor, would you have no problem with me deciding one day to set up a tent 6" from your property line blocking your driveway?
It might seem like a stupid law, but it's innocuous at worst. She could have easily complied and it would have made her protest no less "effective" or "potent" or whatever.
To be honest, I'm sure she probably wanted to get arrested, it only makes more news for her. The fact her protesters had a chant all ready only makes it more obvious.
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Originally posted by Arlette:
So then you must not agree with one of our founding principles, Free Speech? First Amendment? [/QB]
I do agree. But I also have the right or freedom of speech to say that she's an idiot and she's only hurting the moral of our troops and giving the insurgents hope. It's my consitutional right correct?
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My bad then. He also called her ugly and that's usually a Republican tactic, commenting on someone's looks.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
What does free speech have to do with the "right" to blockade a building? The police would have no problem with her and her people marching around the building and speaking their mind, but the law says you can't just stand there. If I was your neighbor, would you have no problem with me deciding one day to set up a tent 6" from your property line blocking your driveway?
It might seem like a stupid law, but it's innocuous at worst. She could have easily complied and it would have made her protest no less "effective" or "potent" or whatever.
To be honest, I'm sure she probably wanted to get arrested, it only makes more news for her. The fact her protesters had a chant all ready only makes it more obvious. [/QB]
Exactly, I was gonna write something like that but you said it perfectly. This wasn't about her first amendment rights, it was about breaking the law.....Which I don't quite remember being in the constitution.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
...giving the insurgents hope.
You honestly think, (a) Cindy Shaheen is getting reported in the Baghdad Sun-times, and (b) if so, Al Queda operatives and/or Iraqi insurgents actually go, "Hey, remember that guy we killed last year? His mom is totally for us! Wicked sweet, and I was just about to give up before this."
This "emboldening the enemy" thing pro-war people throw around is no less non-sequitor then me going "I had Cheerios this morning, therefore I am the Lord Christ Jesus incarnate."
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It may take a whole slew of folks taking real action for any change to occur.
Her arrest is likely to get more press than the whole protest did. God bless her.
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people get arrested all the time for civil disoberence, why is her case so shocking or special... at least she wasn't vandalizing property in the name of anarchy.
why should she have to mourn the lose of son quietly, is it not her right to ask for answers?
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
[/qb]
You honestly think, (a) Cindy Shaheen is getting reported in the Baghdad Sun-times, and (b) if so, Al Queda operatives and/or Iraqi insurgents actually go, "Hey, remember that guy we killed last year? His mom is totally for us! Wicked sweet, and I was just about to give up before this."
This "emboldening the enemy" thing pro-war people throw around is no less non-sequitor then me going "I had Cheerios this morning, therefore I am the Lord Christ Jesus incarnate." [/QB][/QUOTE]
Honestly, yes I believe the top Al Queda people do see the same news and channels as we do in the middle east, here and Europe and can use this as insentive to keep fighting us thinking our own people are turning on each other. I don't think they say the same quotes as you said like "wicked sweet" or "remember that guy" cause I doubt they could remember that particular person, but yes, I think they can use this as a positive against us.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Originally posted by Arlette:
So then you must not agree with one of our founding principles, Free Speech? First Amendment? [/b]
I do agree. But I also have the right or freedom of speech to say that she's an idiot and she's only hurting the moral of our troops and giving the insurgents hope. It's my consitutional right correct? [/QB]
Absolutely. But your posts are so vehement. And saying she should die and is a waste of breath....just seems way extreme even when you disagree with someone.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
why should she have to mourn the lose of son quietly, is it not her right to ask for answers?
I believe the autopsy showed that he was killed in an ambush in Sadr City, Iraq, last year, Ok, there's her answer.....Can she go home now? :roll:
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
What does free speech have to do with the "right" to blockade a building? The police would have no problem with her and her people marching around the building and speaking their mind, but the law says you can't just stand there. If I was your neighbor, would you have no problem with me deciding one day to set up a tent 6" from your property line blocking your driveway?
It might seem like a stupid law, but it's innocuous at worst. She could have easily complied and it would have made her protest no less "effective" or "potent" or whatever.
To be honest, I'm sure she probably wanted to get arrested, it only makes more news for her. The fact her protesters had a chant all ready only makes it more obvious. [/b]
Exactly, I was gonna write something like that but you said it perfectly. This wasn't about her first amendment rights, it was about breaking the law.....Which I don't quite remember being in the constitution. [/QB]
Except.....no. You were arguing all the same points well before she was arrested. My points were about her protesting. So were yours. Not about being arrested. Protesting is First Amendment.
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I guess my problem with the argument that we're "emboldening the terrorists" or supporting the enemy when we question our actions is that it seems to give an absolute stamp of power to our leadership. It is basically saying that once we commit to an action, we can't step back and reexamine what we're doing. And I think that's insane.
Isn't it more likely to show the world that we're reasonable people if we're able to admit our mistakes and work to correct them? Or show that we're open to the world's opinion?
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I think Al Qaeida and the Iraqi insurgents have plenty of motivation regardless of Cindy Sheehan. She has influence on the morale of US people, but not on the insurgents.
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
[/b]
You honestly think, (a) Cindy Shaheen is getting reported in the Baghdad Sun-times, and (b) if so, Al Queda operatives and/or Iraqi insurgents actually go, "Hey, remember that guy we killed last year? His mom is totally for us! Wicked sweet, and I was just about to give up before this."
This "emboldening the enemy" thing pro-war people throw around is no less non-sequitor then me going "I had Cheerios this morning, therefore I am the Lord Christ Jesus incarnate." [/QB]
Honestly, yes I believe the top Al Queda people do see the same news and channels as we do in the middle east, here and Europe and can use this as insentive to keep fighting us thinking our own people are turning on each other. I don't think they say the same quotes as you said like "wicked sweet" or "remember that guy" cause I doubt they could remember that particular person, but yes, I think they can use this as a positive against us. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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Originally posted by Arlette:
Absolutely. But your posts are so vehement. And saying she should die and is a waste of breath....just seems way extreme even when you disagree with someone. [/b]
Stick around, you'll hear about more dying comments from other people on other threads, it's not just me, you just caught me this time. :cool:
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Originally posted by Arlette:
My bad then. He also called her ugly and that's usually a Republican tactic, commenting on someone's looks.
I did not know that was a Republican tactic, that's the first time I've heard that on this board.
But you gotta admit, she's no Kate Moss.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Honestly, yes I believe the top Al Queda people do see the same news and channels as we do in the middle east, here and Europe and can use this as insentive to keep fighting us thinking our own people are turning on each other. I don't think they say the same quotes as you said like "wicked sweet" or "remember that guy" cause I doubt they could remember that particular person, but yes, I think they can use this as a positive against us.
Just to make sure I'm understanding your point: it's your contention that the Iraqi Insurgency© see reports of Cindy Shaheen, including the fact that her son got killed by the Iraqi Insurgency©, and they then think that Cindy Shaheen and her supporters are, what? Pro-Insurgency©?
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The problem I have is, whether the war is right or wrong is everyone's individual opinion. I have a problem with the whole "Bring the troops home NOW" statement. That would be a disaster, all hell would break loose a billion times worse than they are now. I'm all for ending this war but not how she wants to. We have to fix it up, somehow, then come home, we can't just pack it up this very second and leave. That would be the death of all the Iraqi's that supported us.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
I did not know that was a Republican tactic, that's the first time I've heard that on this board.
With the exception of Al Frakken, I do not recall any Democrats who based their attacks on Republicans or Republican policy on "looks." I would then offer as contrast every "critique" of anything Michael Moore has had to say.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Honestly, yes I believe the top Al Queda people do see the same news and channels as we do in the middle east, here and Europe and can use this as insentive to keep fighting us thinking our own people are turning on each other. I don't think they say the same quotes as you said like "wicked sweet" or "remember that guy" cause I doubt they could remember that particular person, but yes, I think they can use this as a positive against us.
Just to make sure I'm understanding your point: it's your contention that the Iraqi Insurgency© see reports of Cindy Shaheen, including the fact that her son got killed by the Iraqi Insurgency©, and they then think that Cindy Shaheen and her supporters are, what? Pro-Insurgency©? [/b]
Pretty good propoganda tactic isn't it?
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Well, I was at the show all day, look for some coverage on BigYawn soon. I though many of th performances were good. highlights include Steve Earl, Thievery for sure, and Ted Leo. Head-Roc was also very good, though some of his themes got old by the end. The Evens weren't great, Jello got old by the end of the night, and Le tigre weren't bad, but I was pretty beat by that time.
In reference to the point of the day, it obviously did not change anyone's mind on the issue, but for the people who want the troops to come home, it made you feel good, which is one of the main points of these sorts of events.
I find it interesting how many in this country, including Rob Gee it appears, villify Cindy. Her son was killed, in a conflict she did not feel was right. If my brother had been killed during his time over there, i would have reacted in the same way. Except she is far braver than i am, and she took it to a national level. Good for her. She is a bitch for not wanting other mother's sons dying? That is a ridiculous comment. Cindy, like nearly every other person in this country who is not a stock holder in Haliburton, wants the war in Iraq to end. The only place we all differ on is how and when. It has nothing to do with being unpatriotic, and the only people who actually believe this are the ignorant. You think the politcians really think Cindy is unpatriotic? It's called spin. They want you to think that about her, cause it villifies her to the ignorant in this country, who, judging by the number of votes Bush got in the last election, are around in vast amounts. This administration should be thankful there aren't more Cindy's out there. Then they might actually have to admit they have not handled this well. You are better than a comment like that Rob. Being patriotic means "expressing love or pride for your country." This has nothing to do with wanting the troops out of Iraq. It has everything to do with wanting an administration that actually reflects the beliefs of its citizens, and doesn't actively lie to them. Something to actually be proud of.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Pretty good propoganda tactic isn't it?
I don't understand your response. Isn't what a pretty good propoganda tactic? Trying to convince people that a woman is cheering for the people who killed her son? No, not really.
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Originally posted by redsock:
You are better than a comment like that Rob.
Which comment was that, I've written alot today. I don't remember saying she wasn't patriotic, but I don't remember saying she was either. I just wish I knew how her son felt about the war. Something tells me it wasn't the same view as hers. I guess not everyone is like my mother cause if someone like Cindy came up to my mother with her beliefs and wanting her to do her little protest with her if I had been deceased in this war, your damn right my mother would put a boot to her face and probably more than once. Then a couple of the neighbors would join her. There's no way she would let her insult or embarass my memory. But like I said, I guess some people are stronger than others......And have lives. :roll:
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Can you please explain to me how this insults or embarasses anybody's memory? If you start from the point that this started from - "I want an explanation for why my son died" - please tell me why that's insulting to anybody's memory.
Yes, it has become bigger than that, and I mentioned earlier today that the protest is joined by a lot of people who have made it more than it originally was - "bring the troops home NOW" is a simplified message that is latching on to the bigger picture.
But explain why wanting an answer to the original question embarasses anybody's memory.
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Originally posted by callat703:
Can you please explain to me how this insults or embarasses anybody's memory? If you start from the point that this started from - "I want an explanation for why my son died" - please tell me why that's insulting to anybody's memory.
Yes, it has become bigger than that, and I mentioned earlier today that the protest is joined by a lot of people who have made it more than it originally was - "bring the troops home NOW" is a simplified message that is latching on to the bigger picture.
But explain why wanting an answer to the original question embarasses anybody's memory.
Because now when people hear his name they won't think of all the good things he's done and how he fought for his country, they will think how Mommy made a spectacle out of it. How, it's all about her. Her five seconds of fame. If she just "wanted an answer", all's she would have to do is right to her congressman or the President himself like Andy Dufresne did to the governor for library funds, once or twice a week until someone got sick of him and answered him back with the funds. It's that simple.
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Because now when people hear his name they won't think of all the good things he's done and how he fought for his country, they will think how Mommy made a spectacle out of it. How, it's all about her. Her five seconds of fame. If she just "wanted an answer", all's she would have to do is right to her congressman or the President himself like Andy Dufresne did to the governor for library funds, once or twice a week until someone got sick of him and answered him back with the funds. It's that simple.
I think this is a rather simplistic view of things. Now when people hear his name, they'll be able to know something about what he's done, who he was, and what he went to war for. It also identifies the people that loved and cared about him, and the people that he left behind when he died. He's no longer one name of 1,900 - he has an identity that puts a real face on the casualties of this war. In a sense, he's become a symbol of the very sacrifices and positive things that you're talking about. It reminds Americans that soldiers aren't faceless drones without attachments to people here at home.
And write letters to your congressmen? You're comparing a dead son to getting books for a prison library in a fictional movie (albeit a very good one)? Come on Rob.
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Originally posted by callat703:
You're comparing a dead son to getting books for a prison library in a fictional movie (albeit a very good one)? [/b]
Are you telling me that wasn't based on a true story??????? Damnit!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Are you telling me that wasn't based on a true story??????? Damnit!!!!!!!!
If by "true story" you mean I have, in fact, climbed thru 500 yards of poop, then yes, it is true.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
If by "true story" you mean I have, in fact, climbed thru 500 yards of poop, then yes, it is true. [/QB]
Morgan Freeman to this day probably still doesn't know how any man could do that.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Morgan Freeman to this day probably still doesn't know how any man could do that.
I'm sure there's an anal sex joke somewhere in here, but I, for the life of me, don't have the heart to look for it.
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It's my personal belief that there is nothing more rock and roll than the first amendment. I wonder what the neo-cons would say today about the civil disbobedience of Martin Luther King Jr., Ghandi, Malcolm X etc. Moreover, I think the following quotes seem to fit the Forum discussion.:
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
Thomas Jefferson
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
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Originally posted by jardison:
Moreover, I think the following quotes seem to fit the Forum discussion.:
"The government that governs best, governs least."
Thomas Jefferson
whoops, wrong thread. sorry bout that. back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Originally posted by jardison:
I think the following quotes seem to fit the Forum discussion.:
"That servant girl Sally Hemmings has one fine booty."
Thomas Jefferson
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Originally posted by ggw?:
I think the following quotes seem to fit the Forum discussion.:
"That servant girl Sally Hemmings has one fine booty."
Thomas Jefferson
QUICK SOMEONE CENSOR IT!! IT MIGHT BE TOO OFF-COLOUR FOR SOME'S SENSITIVE SENSIBILITIES!!
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ok, we get it.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by ggw?:
I think the following quotes seem to fit the Forum discussion.:
"That servant girl Sally Hemmings has one fine booty."
Thomas Jefferson
QUICK SOMEONE CENSOR IT!! IT MIGHT BE TOO OFF-COLOUR FOR SOME'S SENSITIVE SENSIBILITIES!! [/b]
Don't you have some algebra homework to do?
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I guess not everyone is like my mother cause if someone like Cindy came up to my mother with her beliefs and wanting her to do her little protest with her if I had been deceased in this war, your damn right my mother would put a boot to her face and probably more than once. Then a couple of the neighbors would join her. [/qb]
Sound like you got some violent kin-folk. Were you raised in some sort of skinhead commune or something?
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Originally posted by Chaz, Lover of all Forum Members:
Sound like you got some violent kin-folk. Were you raised in some sort of skinhead commune or something? [/QB]
No....But thanks for asking. Was Cindy brought up in some kind of Wuss commune or something?
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Originally posted by Chaz, Lover of all Forum Members:
Sound like you got some violent kin-folk. Were you raised in some sort of skinhead commune or something? [/b]
No....But thanks for asking. Was Cindy brought up in some kind of Wuss commune or something? [/QB]
She obviously was.
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Originally posted by ggw?:
Don't you have some algebra homework to do?
Not for a good 12 years or so, no.
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by jardison:
Moreover, I think the following quotes seem to fit the Forum discussion.:
"The government that governs best, governs least."
Thomas Jefferson
whoops, wrong thread. sorry bout that. back to your regularly scheduled programming. [/b]
cant get much more big government than an expensive, elective war. totally apt quote
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I watched some of the idiot peace speakers on C-SPAHN. They were rambling on and on about peaceful Islam and "Free the Cuban Five", or some such nonsense. What do the Cuban Five have to do with anything? And what about the Fantastic Four. Many of those peaceniks are so pro-communist that you could probably find some of them on the North Korea bbs (http://www.korea-dpr.com/cgi-bin/simpleforum.cgi). Where were Dr.Doom, bags & chimblysweep?
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
I watched some of the idiot peace speakers on C-SPAHN. They were rambling on and on about peaceful Islam and "Free the Cuban Five", or some such nonsense. What do the Cuban Five have to do with anything? And what about the Fantastic Four. Many of those peaceniks are so pro-communist that you could probably find some of them on the North Korea bbs (http://www.korea-dpr.com/cgi-bin/simpleforum.cgi). Where were Dr.Doom, bags & chimblysweep?
Can I get you to be serious for a minute, and explain to me whether or not you have a real problem with Islam in well thought out, coherent, non-linked or [ img ] thoughts? Half the time I can't tell if you're joking or not.
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Boy lot of grumpy fascistos on this forum. Are you fascists into combat core or what?! Midnite Madness and Beyond.
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Originally posted by j_lee:
Can I get you to be serious for a minute, and explain to me whether or not you have a real problem with Islam
Did, or didn't, the prophet (http://www.islamreview.com/articles/incredibleteachings.shtml) have sexual intercourse with a 9 year old girl? Is there a problem? David Bowie, Roman Polanski & Jimmy Page might beg to differ...
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
Originally posted by j_lee:
Can I get you to be serious for a minute, and explain to me whether or not you have a real problem with Islam
Did, or didn't, the prophet (http://www.islamreview.com/articles/incredibleteachings.shtml) have sexual intercourse with a 9 year old girl? Is there a problem? David Bowie, Roman Polanski & Jimmy Page might beg to differ... [/b]
Did, or didn't, men typically marry women between the ages of 10 to 13 in ancient times? And what was the average life expectancy during that time period?
Any extremist who follows the examples of any religion to a letter is just that...an extremist. They exist in every religion (some members of the born-agains and evangelicals being more or less the equivalent of the taliban). Why denounce an entire religion because of it?
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Originally posted by j_lo:
Did, or didn't, men typically marry women between the ages of 10 to 13 in ancient times?
Valid point, I suppose. And it was 9, not '10 to 13'.
But what about the fact that they still promulgate "the 9th century way" even now? Could they have a screw loose?
By the way, is it liberal-Islam that is currently sweeping the planet? Or is it radical-Islam? I forgot.
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So is it only radical islam that you have a problem with, then?
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Originally posted by j_lo:
So is it only radical islam that you have a problem with, then?
Mostly yes.
But Islam in general does indeed creep me out. For example, why is there no picture of Mohammed?
And if you do make a picture then someone should cut your head off.
Shit like that gives me the willies.
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
But Islam in general does indeed creep me out. For example, why is there no picture of Mohammed?
And if you do poast a picture, then as a true believer, someone must cut your head off.
Re-read your Bible, chap. Exodus 20:4 says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." I believe later on in the Mosaic Law, idolatry was punishable by death.
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Dude, I could post like a million images of Jesus, Moses, Buddha & L.Ron Hubbard like right now.
Poast me one of Mohammed...?
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
Dude, I could post like a million images of Jesus, Moses, Buddha & L.Ron Hubbard like right now.
Poast me one of Mohammed...?
This is what Google gave me:
<img src="http://www.posedown.de/meisterschaften/2003/2003-11_dorian-yates-grand-prix/pics/bodybuilder_Mustafa-Mohammed.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
Poast me one of Mohammed...?
<img src="http://utopia.utexas.edu/project/portraits/mohammed2.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by ggw?:
This is what Google gave me:
Turn off "safe search" and google image search for "big white horse hung". Prepare to feel ridiculously lacking.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
Poast me one of Mohammed...?
<img src="http://utopia.utexas.edu/project/portraits/mohammed2.jpg" alt=" - " /> [/b]
Dude, that's like Mohammed, the 2nd.
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
Dude, that's like Mohammed, the 2nd.
You are SO picky. :p
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Turn off "safe search" and google image search for "big white horse hung". Prepare to feel ridiculously lacking.
We won't ask how you discovered that.
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Muhammad II also Mohammed II, 1429???1481.
<img src="http://utopia.utexas.edu/project/portraits/mohammed2.jpg" alt=" - " />
Sultan of Turkey (1451??1481) and founder of the Ottoman Empire. He conquered Constantinople in 1453 and made it his capital.
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Originally posted by ggw?:
We won't ask how you discovered that.
In exactly the same way you just did.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
In exactly the same way you just did.
Are you conceding, then?
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
Are you conceding, then?
Am I conceding there's no pictures of Mohammed? I guess, you've probably researched it more then myself. I don't think that's weird though - it's not as though there are accurate portraits of Jesus. Makes no sense a Jew in that part of the world is a fair skinned white guy with long straight hair like that.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Am I conceding there's no pictures of Mohammed? I guess...
<img src="http://www.forumspile.com/Owned/Owned-AssRape.gif" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
But Islam in general does indeed creep me out. For example, why is there no picture of Mohammed?
And if you do poast a picture, then as a true believer, someone must cut your head off.
Re-read your Bible, chap. Exodus 20:4 says, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." I believe later on in the Mosaic Law, idolatry was punishable by death. [/b]
since when does islam use the bible as a source?
while judiasm, christianity and islam are all traced to abraham, abraham was waaaaay before moses (and exodus). abraham was the father of ishmael, who, along with his mother hagar, was kicked out by abraham's wife, sarah (who eventually begat isaac). ishmael and hagar eventually settled in mecca and become the founders of islam (in essence).
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Am I conceding there's no pictures of Mohammed? I guess...
<img src="http://www.forumspile.com/Owned/Owned-AssRape.gif" alt=" - " /> [/b]
That's sort of like me going, "are you forced to agree 1 + 1 = 2", and when you say yes going, "ha, I won the argument!" When did I say there was pictures of Mohammed?
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
since when does islam use the bible as a source?
My point was that the idea of not making an image of a religious figure is neither weird nor exclusive to Islam.
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So any of you bible thumpers going to the dcfestival with Luis Palau?
Probably won't be as awesome as the Black Luv Festival, but then again, what is?
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
When did I say there was pictures of Mohammed?
Didn't you try to post one just a coupla minutes ago, or what?
<img src="http://www.forumspile.com/Owned/Owned-CatThrow.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
since when does islam use the bible as a source?
My point was that the idea of not making an image of a religious figure is neither weird nor exclusive to Islam. [/b]
fair enough- your initial response sounded like you were saying that islam was using a bibilical reference for justifing not allowing any image of mohammed. in any event, the iconoclasts of the late medieval period would surely agree with you, as well as calvinists.
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Originally posted by Ellis D. Fleischbach:
Didn't you try to post one just a coupla minutes ago, or what?
<img src="http://www.forumspile.com/Owned/Owned-CatThrow.jpg" alt=" - " />
Sorry, I thought it was fairly obvious I was just playing off of GGW's joke.
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<img src="http://www.forumspile.com/Owned/Owned-CatFight.gif" alt=" - " />
It's okay, you don't have to be defensive.