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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: jardison on July 08, 2005, 01:31:00 pm

Title: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: jardison on July 08, 2005, 01:31:00 pm
Which band has had the most influence on music today and which one in your estimation is the best?  I know they are all completely different in their own right.  I believe, for me, that it is the Ramones.  However the other night I saw the Filth and Fury documentary about the Sex Pistols and it made me think for a moment that the Pistols may have been more important than the Clash.  That being said, I believe that the Clash to be a way more important and influential band than the Pistols.  Any thoughts?  Bored at work...
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on July 08, 2005, 01:34:00 pm
We saw this fat lady at the airport back in late 2001, and dubbed her "Osama Big Fattie". I wonder which band had more influence on her. Probably none of the above.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on July 08, 2005, 01:36:00 pm
Of the three, only the Ramones are worth owning so much as a single CD by. So, I guess them.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: jardison on July 08, 2005, 01:38:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
  Of the three, only the Ramones are worth owning so much as a single CD by. So, I guess them.
London Calling!!!???!!!
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: ggw on July 08, 2005, 01:44:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
  Of the three, only the Ramones are worth owning so much as a single CD by.
Apparently someone has taken "Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue" a little too literally.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 01:46:00 pm
yeah, never mind the bollocks.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 01:47:00 pm
All 3 are very different for very different reasons. My thoughts on each below:
 
 1) The Ramones -- Clearly the inventors of a style of music that was copied by many imitators. They essentially reinvented the wheel: they said what they had to say in as little time as possible, stripped out the filler and returned rock'n'roll to its proper beginnings as catchy, tuneful, and simple. But the world was SO not ready for them at that point in time, which is the case of most work from a creative genius.
 
 2) The Sex Pistols -- Mind you, I love the Pistols but they destroyed the hope of punk rock. No record label wanted to touch punk rock when it ended up on the front page of the newspaper. Strung out on dope, vomiting, cursing, bleeding, fighting, pierced with safety pins, etc. Seymour Stein wanted to quit classifying bands punk rock and instead embrace the term "new wave". The Sex Pistols essentially proved that if bands were just going to self destruct there was no point in investing in bands like the Ramones or the Damned. It just didn't make sense if you were a businessman.
 
 3) The Clash -- The most diverse of the the 3, the one that got the most attention and critical praise at the time of their existence. A brilliant band, but the ones who strayed most from the punk rock formula. They had starry eyes and pretty much peaked and then self-distructed rapidly. A hugely dynamic output, but I still have to say the Ramones understood rock'n'roll better. Not that the Clash are overrated by any means. It just got to a point where they did what they had to do to sell records and CBS took the ball and ran with it. The Ramones were just never in that position no matter how hard they tried. Instead, it took countless imitators to finally break through.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on July 08, 2005, 01:48:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jardison:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
  Of the three, only the Ramones are worth owning so much as a single CD by. So, I guess them.
London Calling!!!???!!! [/b]
London was probably calling to beg someone to put them out of their misery.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: godsshoeshine on July 08, 2005, 01:50:00 pm
i'd go: ramones, then the clash, then the pistols far behind. as far as who 15 year old me enjoyed the most, that is.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: HoyaSaxa03 on July 08, 2005, 02:02:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
 2) The Sex Pistols
it seems like every british band i read about that started in the late 70s got together because they went to a pistols show in '77
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:02:00 pm
If the question is which of the three had most influence, then it cannot be the clash.
 
 At the start clash and Bernie Rhodes their manager were copying whatever the pistols and Mclaren did.
 
 The pistols in turn were copying what the Americans did, torn t-shirts, Richard Hell was there first and on and on.
 
 So maybe The ramones were the most influential.
 
 
 Then again the clash have the best body of work and showed complete mastery of pop music.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on July 08, 2005, 02:06:00 pm
Did I ever tell you about the blue haired girl that gave me tickets and a backstage pass to the Pixies in London back in '89? Gets me all choked up just thinking about it.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 02:07:00 pm
Check back to July 4th weekend, 1976 when the Pistols, Clash, etc. all went to see the Ramones play at the Roundhouse. That's the one event that essentially kick-started punk in England. Though the Damned were technically the first British punk band to release a record (the New Rose 7"), the Ramones were still the ones who disrupted English sensibilities and that's when punk rock took off.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: chaz on July 08, 2005, 02:09:00 pm
Ramones for sheer poetry.
 
 Staring at my goldfish bowl
 Popping Phenobarbital
 Life is so beautful
 I've gone mental
 
 When I was in my teens I would have said the pistols.  In my 20s, the clash.  But now the ramones by far.  I still listen to them all the time.  They seem way less gonzo and bubblegum to me now than they did way back when, but that's probably just me.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:10:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  Though the Damned were technically the first British punk band to release a record (the New Rose 7")
Yeah it is a technicality as the pistols were pissed off as they saw the damned as pretenders who were copying them.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:12:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
   kick-started punk in England.
But kick-starting punk in England made punk famous. Without the English punks the whole scene might never have acheived  infamy.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 08, 2005, 02:14:00 pm
The Buzzcocks can lay claim to being infleuntial on the "punk" of today.... Less political than The Clash, Less image oriented than the Sex Pistols, more personal angst,  however exceedingly more clever than most thats followed them.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on July 08, 2005, 02:15:00 pm
I'll bet you were barely alive that weekend.
 
 I was with my mom that weekend. She had entered a painting contest at the Fort Edward Art Center for paintings with a bicentennial theme. My mom had done a painting of an old covered bridge, choosing to go subtle in her theme, and was beaten by a bunch of overly patriotic-themed crap paintings. Still brings a tear to my eye.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  Check back to July 4th weekend, 1976 when the Pistols, Clash, etc. all went to see the Ramones play at the Roundhouse. That's the one event that essentially kick-started punk in England. Though the Damned were technically the first British punk band to release a record (the New Rose 7"), the Ramones were still the ones who disrupted English sensibilities and that's when punk rock took off.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 02:15:00 pm
The Sex Pistols were totally about fashion ultimately. They were Malcolm Mclaren's little fantasy since he didn't know how to manage the NY Dolls in their patent red leather phase. He just lucked out that they actually wrote some good songs but ultimately it was a lot of scandal. I can see why Johnny Rotten quit when they did.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: chaz on July 08, 2005, 02:16:00 pm
Punk is as American as baseball and apple pie.  
 
 'Nuff said.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 02:16:00 pm
And the Buzzcocks are still my personal favorite punk band of all time  :)  The Damned would be up there too. But it's hard not to love the Ramones.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:19:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  The Sex Pistols were totally about fashion ultimately. They were Malcolm Mclaren's little fantasy since he didn't know how to manage the NY Dolls in their patent red leather phase. He just lucked out that they actually wrote some good songs but ultimately it was a lot of scandal. I can see why Johnny Rotten quit when they did.
But McLaren put the dolls into their red patent leather phase. It was his idea.
 
  The scandal sold records which mad money and Mclaren rich and famous. Mission Accomplished.
 
 In the mean time the pistols made one great album and made punk famous, giving a leg up to so many other punk and then new-wave bands.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on July 08, 2005, 02:20:00 pm
But Beyonce has told a whole lot more records.
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  Punk is as American as baseball and apple pie.  
 
 'Nuff said.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: you be betty on July 08, 2005, 02:21:00 pm
ramones are my favorite of the three, in addition to who i feel were most influential.
 
 they really kickstarted the whole movement.  plain and simple.  you don't even have to like them to acknowledge that.
 
 
 plus, look at how many bands today were influenced bare bones by the ramones!  it's a much longer list than any started by the clash or pistols...
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:21:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  Punk is as American as baseball and apple pie.  
 
 'Nuff said.
Yeah that is right. Do a google image search for punk, you'll never see a union jack.
 
   :roll:
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Bags on July 08, 2005, 02:22:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by canker-blossom:
  Then again the clash have the best body of work and showed complete mastery of pop music.
I agree...I think the Clash has the best output, but in terms of influence Pistols and Ramones were more singularly important to starting a new scene/genre/mode of playing, appreciating and positioning music and live shows.
 
 Ditto that the Buzzcocks are my fave, though.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: chaz on July 08, 2005, 02:22:00 pm
Drive By Truckers dude!!  Yee fuckin' ha!!
 
Quote
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer:
  But Beyonce has told a whole lot more records.
 
 
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  Punk is as American as baseball and apple pie.  
 
 'Nuff said.
[/b]
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on July 08, 2005, 02:23:00 pm
The Dead Kennedys are my favorite.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  And the Buzzcocks are still my personal favorite punk band of all time   :)   The Damned would be up there too. But it's hard not to love the Ramones.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:26:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by you be betty:
  ramones are my favorite of the three, in addition to who i feel were most influential.
 
 they really kickstarted the whole movement.  plain and simple.  you don't even have to like them to acknowledge that.
 
 
 plus, look at how many bands today were influenced bare bones by the ramones!  it's a much longer list than any started by the clash or pistols...
Sure the ramones, were before the velvet underground and MC5 and Iggy Pop.
   :roll:
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: ratioci nation on July 08, 2005, 02:27:00 pm
clearly the biggest influence on today's punk bands is Green Day!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: chaz on July 08, 2005, 02:28:00 pm
Sorry pal, Punk Rock is an American export.  Sure the Brits put a safety pin in it, gave it a mowhawk, whatever. There were some truly great great punk bands from the UK, but that doesn't change where it came from.
 
Quote
Originally posted by canker-blossom:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  Punk is as American as baseball and apple pie.  
 
 'Nuff said.
Yeah that is right. Do a google image search for punk, you'll never see a union jack.
 
    :roll:  [/b]
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on July 08, 2005, 02:28:00 pm
The answer is simple: Jack White.   :D
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: godsshoeshine on July 08, 2005, 02:30:00 pm
<img src="http://www.wenderholm.de/steffi/images/slcpunk43.jpg" alt=" - " />
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: ratioci nation on July 08, 2005, 02:31:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
  The answer is simple: Jack White.    :D  
I think you mean Jack Black
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:32:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  but that doesn't change where it came from.
   
Quote
Originally posted by canker-blossom:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  Punk is as American as baseball and apple pie.  
 
 'Nuff said.
Yeah that is right. Do a google image search for punk, you'll never see a union jack.
 
     :roll:   [/b]
[/b]
Yeah it came from here when you all broke down what the beatles and stones were doing.
 
 But punk would have not acheived a fraction of the notoriety without the pistols. And so is no longer like fat men with no talent in tight clothes or dessert.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: ggw on July 08, 2005, 02:34:00 pm
Quote
"The first ongoing music scene that was assigned the "punk" label appeared in New York in 1974-1976 with a handful of bands that played regularly at the club CBGB's in New York's Bowery district, including The Ramones, Television, Blondie, Richard Hell and the Voidoids, and Talking Heads. The "punk" title was applied to these groups by early 1976, when Punk Magazine first appeared, featuring these bands alongside articles on some of the immediate role models for the new groups, such as Lou Reed, who was on the cover of the first issue of Punk, and Patti Smith, cover subject on the second issue.
 
 During this same period, punk bands were forming independently in other locations as well, such as The Saints in Brisbane, Australia, and The Stranglers and the Sex Pistols in London.
 
 An oft-cited moment in the history of punk rock is the July 4, 1976 concert by the Ramones at the Roundhouse in London (the Stranglers were also on the bill). Many of the future leaders of the UK punk rock scene were inspired by the show, and almost immediately after that show, UK punk rock was in full swing, defined by the radical fashions and rowdy behavior of the punk fans as much as by the bands, who included the Sex Pistols, The Damned (the first band to market an album as "punk"), The Clash, The Slits, and Siouxsie and the Banshees. Early punk bands were operating within small "scenes" that included other bands and solo performers as well as enthusiastic impresarios who operated small nightclubs that provided a showcase and meeting place for the emerging musicians (the 100 Club in London, CBGB in New York, and The Masque in Hollywood are among the best known early punk clubs). The UK punks quickly exceeded the boundaries of their local scenes to produce major hit records in the UK, and to grab sensationalistic headlines worldwide. The UK scene has largely come to define "punk rock" in the popular imagination."
So says wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock) and so shall it be.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on July 08, 2005, 02:34:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by general grievous:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, faux celeb-porn CONNOISSEUR:
  The answer is simple: Jack White.      :D    
I think you mean Jack Black [/b]
Look, as long as it's NOT Loretta Lynn, I can live with it.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: chaz on July 08, 2005, 02:38:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by canker-blossom:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  but that doesn't change where it came from.
   
Quote
Originally posted by canker-blossom:
     
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  Punk is as American as baseball and apple pie.  
 
 'Nuff said.
Yeah that is right. Do a google image search for punk, you'll never see a union jack.
 
      :roll:    [/b]
[/b]
Yeah it came from here when you all broke down what the beatles and stones were doing.
 
 But punk would have not acheived a fraction of the notoriety without the pistols. And so is no longer like fat men with no talent in tight clothes or dessert. [/b]
OK if you wanna take this down that super lame road then Little Richard, Jerry Lee, Buddy Holly started punk rock.
 
 No one would argue that pistols brought notoriety to punk rock, but any sane person that knows shit about music knows that punk rock originated in the states, and not the UK.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 02:42:00 pm
Iggy may be the godfather of punk, but if it weren't for the Ramones, it would have never have influenced England the way it did.
 
 And the MC5 and the Velvet Underground have NOTHING to do with punk. Sorry, but the MC5 have more in common with CCR than they do with the Ramones. They just weren't really breaking THAT much new ground. They were on the right track, but they just didn't quite do it. Now the Stooges on the other hand are a different story.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:43:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  punk rock originated in the states, and not the UK.
Yes. I know. It originated in the US of A. But it is no longer apple pie and baseball. As GGW's wikipedia article summarises in its last sentence.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: chaz on July 08, 2005, 02:45:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by canker-blossom:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  punk rock originated in the states, and not the UK.
Yes. I know. It originated in the US of A. But it is no longer apple pie and baseball. As GGW's wikipedia article summarises in its last sentence. [/b]
The key word in that last sentance being "imagination".
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 08, 2005, 02:45:00 pm
well you cant count out how infleuntial Jonathan Richman and Modern Lovers  and T. Rex were on punk...
 
 I've mentioned this record before but it bears repeating in this thread.  Glitterbest collects 20 Pre Punk and Glam songs released by obscure bands between 1971 to 1976.  It's an interesting collection in that you can hear the roots of the sound that became "punk".  And for Canker it has a early version of The Only Ones on it.
 
  Glitterbest @ Allmusic (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=ADFEAEE4781DD94BAC7620CD9C394BC4B57DFB08DD63F28753264345D3A57F4B82006AF553E58198F3FA76F87EB0F731A65A0FD686EC5CFEDB6C3D359D8EDB&sql=10:8bjxlfheacqw)
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:47:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  Iggy may be the godfather of punk, but if it weren't for the Ramones, it would have never have influenced England the way it did.
 
 And the MC5 and the Velvet Underground have NOTHING to do with punk. Sorry, but the MC5 have more in common with CCR than they do with the Ramones. They just weren't really breaking THAT much new ground. They were on the right track, but they just didn't quite do it. Now the Stooges on the other hand are a different story.
Yeah, but If it were not for Malcolm Mclaren the pistols and the clash would not have gone to that roundhouse gig.
 
 But the stories of iggy pop and the MC5 are intertwined. The velvet underground and nico sounds an awful lot like the beginnings of punk to me. It influenced plenty of people in its own right.
 
 The clash oft cited MC5.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: ratioci nation on July 08, 2005, 02:48:00 pm
who the fuck cares, everybody knows america rules
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:51:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
   "imagination".
You need a dictionary to understand English.
 
 i·mag·i·na·tion     P   Pronunciation Key  (-mj-nshn)
 n.
 The formation of a mental image of something that is neither perceived as real nor present to the senses.
 The mental image so formed.
 The ability or tendency to form such images.
 The ability to confront and deal with reality by using the creative power of the mind; resourcefulness: handled the problems with great imagination.
 A traditional or widely held belief or opinion.
 Archaic.
 An unrealistic idea or notion; a fancy.
 A plan or scheme.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:53:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by general grievous:
  who the fuck cares, everybody knows america rules
http://umerica.ld.infoseek.co.jp/ (http://umerica.ld.infoseek.co.jp/)
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: chaz on July 08, 2005, 02:53:00 pm
Punk Rock is for the whole world!  <img src="http://www.hot.ee/ramonestribute/f_39g9.jpg" alt=" - " />
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 08, 2005, 02:53:00 pm
the thing is alot of bands in thier early stages could be "punk"... there are some early stones songs which have that "punk" attitude, mixed with a fury and primitive sound.  early garage bands were the "punks" of their time.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 02:54:00 pm
Malcolm Mclaren is a twat who ruined punk rock. I wouldn't give him credit for anything. He saw a chance to grab some cash and make a stir, he has no soul and I respect Johnny Rotten for doing the right thing and ending the band when he did.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:54:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  well you cant count out how infleuntial Jonathan Richman and Modern Lovers  and T. Rex were on punk...
 
 [/URL]
but most glam people disappeared during punk. It reflects the only non-record releasing time for Bowie for instance....
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: ggw on July 08, 2005, 02:55:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by general grievous:
  who the fuck cares, everybody knows america rules
There was nothing punk about Sister Golden Hair or Horse with No Name
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 02:57:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  Malcolm Mclaren is a twat who ruined punk rock. I wouldn't give him credit for anything. He saw a chance to grab some cash and make a stir, he has no soul and I respect Johnny Rotten for doing the right thing and ending the band when he did.
That is all as maybe. But if it were not for Mclaren there might not have ever been any British punk at all. His trip to N.Y. is probably the most influential act for British music in the entire period.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 02:58:00 pm
Ha! Or how about "Ventura Highway"?
 
 What about Seals and Crofts?
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on July 08, 2005, 02:58:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
   
Quote
Originally posted by general grievous:
  who the fuck cares, everybody knows america rules
There was nothing punk about Sister Golden Hair or Horse with No Name [/b]
Muskrat Love and Tin Man were punk as punk could be though.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: godsshoeshine on July 08, 2005, 02:59:00 pm
I don't know who started it and I don't give a fuck. The one thing I do know is that we did it harder, we did it faster, and we definitely did it with more love, baby. You can't take that away from us.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 08, 2005, 03:00:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by canker-blossom:
   
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  well you cant count out how infleuntial Jonathan Richman and Modern Lovers  and T. Rex were on punk...
 
 [/URL]
but most glam people disappeared during punk. It reflects the only non-record releasing time for Bowie for instance.... [/b]
Don't you think if Marc Bolan had lived he would have kept in one form or another the Glam flame going?  
 
 But glam was also considered the disposable pop of it's time... never expected to have much of a shelf life.  the thing is it stands the test of time better than say pub-rock or hairmetal
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 03:01:00 pm
You think that Mclaren was the one who told 2,000 kids to go see the Ramones at the Roundhouse? Everyone thought he was an idiot. Read "England's Dreaming" and you'll see plenty of folks from that time period only went into his store so they could steal from him. He destroyed everything he touched, he didn't give a crap about the music...it was about fashion, trends, and making money. That's just the truth.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 03:04:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  You think that Mclaren was the one who told 2,000 kids to go see the Ramones at the Roundhouse?  
Did it sell out? I really have no idea how full that show was. But what would have been the draw of the other band(s)?
 
 I do know that the pistols and the clash would not have been there if it were not for Mclaren.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 03:04:00 pm
True about the Pistols because he managed them, but not the Clash.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 08, 2005, 03:06:00 pm
as if  malcolm was any different from any other person wanting to make money from the music industry...
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 03:08:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  [Don't you think if Marc Bolan had lived he would have kept in one form or another the Glam flame going?  
 
 
I think I remember a quote from Marc and to paraphrase, The beatles ruined us because we could no longer get away with all our songs sounding the same.....
 
 I think glam, love it as I do, might be somewhat of a dead end. Just like reggae (was for the clash).
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 08, 2005, 03:10:00 pm
July 4th, 1976 - Sunday
 The Ramones make their UK debut in a triple bill with the Stranglers and the Flaming Groovies at the London Roundhouse.They're in the second slot, behind the Groovies. They had originally been booked for a European tour but their label on the continent backed out at the last minute, almost cancelling even the UK dates. The Flaming Groovies are now on the road to support their last album "Shake Some Action." The Ramones will have their first UK single out later this week, with tracks from their debut album, Tomorrow night the band headline their own concert at Dingwalls. The two concerts were vastly different. The first, in front of 2,000 people was their largest concert ever, the other is a crammed, tiny club, just like back home. Their concert tonight at the Roundhouse is reviewed for the NME by Max Bell. "Closer to a comedy routine than a band... the guys on the mixer hated them and they hate the guys on the mixer back. I laughed solidly for half an hour.... The appeal is purely negative, based on their not being able to play a shit of give a shit .... imbecilic adolescent ditties but still oodles more exciting than the majority of bands...."
 
 Ramones/Stranglers/ Flaming Groovies : London, The Roundhouse
 
 
  linkage (http://ramones.ru/eng/histories/diary.html)
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 03:10:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  True about the Pistols because he managed them, but not the Clash.
And Bernie Rhodes, the Clash manger was going over to the pistols house all the time to find out what they were doing so he could get his band to copy them.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 03:13:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  July 4th, 1976 - Sunday
 The Ramones make their UK debut in a triple bill....   .....oodles more exciting than the majority of bands...."
 
 Ramones/Stranglers/ Flaming Groovies : London, The Roundhouse
 
 
  linkage (http://ramones.ru/eng/histories/diary.html)
Thankyou.
 
 So I dont think they would have sold out the roundhouse by themselves. second on the bill and no UK single yet.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 03:17:00 pm
Ultimately everyone copied the Ramones and not the Flaming Groovies. Check out the Clash's "White Riot" single.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 03:19:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
  Ultimately everyone copied the Ramones and not the Flaming Groovies. Check out the Clash's "White Riot" single.
Yeah the flaming groovies only ever played Durbin after that.  :roll:
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 08, 2005, 03:20:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by canker-blossom:
   
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  [Don't you think if Marc Bolan had lived he would have kept in one form or another the Glam flame going?  
 
 
I think I remember a quote from Marc and to paraphrase, The beatles ruined us because we could no longer get away with all our songs sounding the same.....
 
 I think glam, love it as I do, might be somewhat of a dead end. Just like reggae (was for the clash). [/b]
No glam was definitely dead prior to the arrival of punk.  It's attitude and simple song structure was adopted by the prepunkers onward.  When Bolan died in the spring of 77 he was already moving in a different direction.  He would have most likely fed off the punk vibe more than so than Bowie did.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 08, 2005, 03:24:00 pm
From Allmusic....
 
 One of America's greatest, most influential, and legendary cult bands, the Flamin' Groovies came out of the San Francisco area in 1965 playing greasy, bluesy, rock & roll dashed with a liberal sprinkling of British Invasion panache, in an era soon to be dominated by hippie culture and hyperextended raga-rock freakouts. Caught in a double bind of playing the wrong kind of music at the wrong time (as well as not looking the part), the Groovies were almost completely forgotten as the Fillmore/Avalon Ballroom scenes, dominated by the Dead, the Jefferson Airplane, et al., rendered them anachronistic. The plain truth, however, was that despite not being in tune with the zeitgeist, the Groovies made great music, and managed to sustain a career that lasted for over two decades.
 
 I'm sure the same could be said for the Stranglers...
  linkage (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=ADFEAEE4781DD94BAC7620CD9C394BC4B57DFB08DD63F28753264345D3A57F4B82006AF553E58198F3FA76F87EB0F731A65A0FD686ED5CFEDD6C3C3D9D8EDB&sql=11:4e841vajzz9a~T1)
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: bearman🐻 on July 08, 2005, 03:29:00 pm
Quote
Yeah the flaming groovies only ever played Durbin after that.
Didn't the Flaming Groovies break up in 1979? It's not like many folks even know who they are. They wrote some good songs but were just trying to copy the Beatles and Badfinger.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: ggw on July 08, 2005, 03:36:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bearman:
   
Quote
Yeah the flaming groovies only ever played Durbin after that.
Didn't the Flaming Groovies break up in 1979? It's not like many folks even know who they are. They wrote some good songs but were just trying to copy the Beatles and Badfinger. [/b]
Shake Some Action is one of the 100 greatest songs ever written.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: markie on July 08, 2005, 03:40:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
  Shake Some Action[/i] is one of the 100 greatest songs ever written.
They concur:
 
 http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/S680.htm (http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/S680.htm)
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: HoyaSaxa03 on July 08, 2005, 04:24:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  OK if you wanna take this down that super lame road then Little Richard, Jerry Lee, Buddy Holly started punk rock.
 
if you listen to nuggets and nuggets 2, along with a bunch of other 60s garage comps, you can see that people were making punk music long before the mid 70s ... it just wasn't labeled as such and promoted as a scene
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: twangirl on July 08, 2005, 04:34:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
 [ [/qb]
Shake Some Action is one of the 100 greatest songs ever written. [/QB][/QUOTE]
 
 You bet it is!
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 11, 2005, 08:22:00 am
The Flaming Groovies are like Love, Velvet Underground, and Television.  Embraced by music critics, record store clerks and musicians.  Over looked by the rest but still able to stand the test of time.  
 
 While all these bands were highly influential for future punk bands, etc, ultimately The Ramones were the catalyst that sparked elements that were already in place to become punk.  It's not like Joe Strummer went out and picked up a guitar after that show.  He was already working with the 101ers.  Same with Steve Jones and Paul Cook who were listening to the NY Dolls, Faces, Stooges.
 
 The early Punk scene was like the Mod and Glam movements, groups formed and disbanded quickly. The shelf life of most bands of was intended to be six months to a year.  Take a look at those family trees of the early punk bands and who played with who at one point or another.  It was about getting that all important first single out, hopefully followed by the second and possibly a UK tour. Some of those singles have stood the test of time, many other not so much.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: chaz on July 11, 2005, 09:07:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by HoyaParanoia:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fine French Chaz:
  OK if you wanna take this down that super lame road then Little Richard, Jerry Lee, Buddy Holly started punk rock.
 
if you listen to nuggets and nuggets 2, along with a bunch of other 60s garage comps, you can see that people were making punk music long before the mid 70s ... it just wasn't labeled as such and promoted as a scene [/b]
Wow...is this actually true?
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: mike9182 on July 11, 2005, 09:21:00 am
The Clash for their eclecticism and for the fact that they piss off punk purists who can't stand the fact that they branched out into other styles that they enjoyed exploring.
Title: Re: Clash vs. Ramones vs. Sex Pistols
Post by: kosmo vinyl on July 13, 2005, 09:37:00 am
So when the infamous show place happened at the Roundhouse, it's a good chance most of the people were there to see the Flaming Groovies.  At that time the band was located in Europe and playing soldout shows to rave reviews.  It's possible given what Strummer was doing at the time with 101ers he was there to check them out.  
 
 There are two major phases of Flaming Groovies career.  The early years up until 71 when Roy Loney was in the group and groups sound more blues rock oriented.  After Roy left orginial member Cyril Jordan took the band sounds to a more polished British Invasion sound.  In 1976 the band released "Shake Some Action" at a time when corporate 70s rock ruled the charts.  The Flaming Grooves stood out with their rock n' roll minimalism, much like the punks that followed them.
 
 Listening to "Teenage Head" and "Slow Death" from the early years, one can't help but think that NYC Bands like the Dolls, The Dictators, and Television were checking them out.  The latter more pop stuff sets the blueprint for future power pop records.
 
 "Groovies Greatest Grooves" does a good god of compling the bands output on Sire Records between 76 to 80.  It emphasises the bands orginial over the bands covers.  It only includes a couple of the legendary pre 71 cuts.
 
 One point to remember "Never Mind The Bollocks" was in part a collection of early singles with some new tracks.