930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Seth Hurwitz on June 15, 2003, 09:06:00 am
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some of you people spend more time worrying about the price per value ratio on a ticket than the music you might be enjoying.
you remind me of my father-in-law who writes his mileage down every time he fills his tank so he can figure out exactly what he's paying per gallon. and guess what? the next time he pulls into the gas station that info won't do him one tiny little bit of good.
what if the people that paid you for whatever it is that you do for a living agonized over every cent and questioned your every move as to if you were worth it?
OK, never mind all that, did anyone see any of the Cremaster films?
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
some of you people spend more time worrying about the price per value ratio on a ticket than the music you might be enjoying.
you remind me of my father-in-law who writes his mileage down every time he fills his tank so he can figure out exactly what he's paying per gallon. and guess what? the next time he pulls into the gas station that info won't do him one tiny little bit of good.
what if the people that paid you for whatever it is that you do for a living agonized over every cent and questioned your every move as to if you were worth it?
OK, never mind all that, did anyone see any of the Cremaster films?
Damn, do you know the owner of the company I work for?
I think a lot of it has to do with the core audience. If it's an older established act and their fanbase is older and has more money to blow on entertainment, it's not a problem. Look at what U2, McCartney, Springsteen, etc. can get for a ticket. But a band like Blur, Radiohead, etc. still has a young core audience and they don't have the capitol to pay out exorbitant prices.
And no, I haven't seen the Creamaster films. Are they good?
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
some of you people spend more time worrying about the price per value ratio on a ticket than the music you might be enjoying.
What's the difference between "the price per value ratio" and worrying if we might be enjoying the music?
All I understand the conversations to mean is is Dave Gahans music worth $40 (which is the exact same thing - right)? I think people may be worried that they might not enjoy Dave Gahan's music by himself and don't want to shell out the $40. But the Spree on the other hand we're less of a gamble at $10. With all of the great shows, you have to be selective this summer. That's a credit to you and the other clubs in DC, but if I can see 6 other shows at the same price of Blur and Gahan, it might make sense. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
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$25 is my psychological limit...Oh wait..$32.125 (yeah... a half cent) after the lovely surcharges. I don't know if this came up before.. but what would the feasibility and interest be in a "season ticket"?... you know, a jan. 1-dec. 31 attend any and every show you want ticket. They would of course be limited (500 or so) and this would entitle the season holder first serve (for tickets...no charge of course with a season ticket) at any show and of course "walk in" admission at a non-sold out show. I'm thinking $250 dollars would be fair. Just think... up front money....people attending shows they wouldn't normally attend and drinking lots of expensive beer!
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Originally posted by myuman:
$25 is my psychological limit...Oh wait..$32.125 (yeah... a half cent) after the lovely surcharges. I don't know if this came up before.. but what would the feasibility and interest be in a "season ticket"?... you know, a jan. 1-dec. 31 attend any and every show you want ticket. They would of course be limited (500 or so) and this would entitle the season holder first serve (for tickets...no charge of course with a season ticket) at any show and of course "walk in" admission at a non-sold out show. I'm thinking $250 dollars would be fair. Just think... up front money....people attending shows they wouldn't normally attend and drinking lots of expensive beer!
That sounds okay in theory (except 500 is a bit high considering there are only 365 days in a year) but I think it would cause a lot more problems than it's worth. The venue has limited space. They need to know almost exactly how many people will actually be in attendance for any given show. Too many people who want to attend shows would not be able to go because of assumed season ticket holders attendance while many of them won't attend denying the band, the club and everyone else who stands to profit the live body in attendance. Then you get pissed off fans who could and would have attended if everyone knew ahead of time that given seasoners would not be in attendance.
What Vansmack said....yeah. He has it down. Don't forget, the economy really sucks now and people aren't getting raises or jobs while they are still paying out for rising expenses. A whole lot of us don't have all that much disposable income, no matter what our ages are, and have to budget. That's just a fact of life.
As far as Dave Gahan is concerned, I don't know if I would even buy his album let alone pay top dollar for a concert. Not even sure if I'd bother if it were your average $15 show. Now $25 for the show that Sigur Rós put on was worth every single penny for the quality that those guys offered.
As someone else stated, it's not just the ticket cost that we have to budget for; it's any possible service charges, gas/cab/metro, drinks, tips, and our time. As much as some of us would love to be there almost every night, we just can't do it. There were times when I've forgone food in order to see a show, but my body will only allow that every so often.
Sorry, we love you, but we do have to balance our lives and budgets.
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One good way to keep 9:30 clubgoing costs down... tie one on before you leave home, then stay away from the bar except for the water jugs and plastic cups!
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Originally posted by Jaguär:
That sounds okay in theory (except 500 is a bit high considering there are only 365 days in a year) but I think it would cause a lot more problems than it's worth. The venue has limited space. They need to know almost exactly how many people will actually be in attendance for any given show. Too many people who want to attend shows would not be able to go because of assumed season ticket holders attendance while many of them won't attend denying the band, the club and everyone else who stands to profit the live body in attendance. Then you get pissed off fans who could and would have attended if everyone knew ahead of time that given seasoners would not be in attendance.
So that is why the site would have a registration page that would allow season holders to register lets say a day before the tickets go on public sale, then pick up hard tickets at the will call. This is key to prohibit scalping at certain shows (show ID of season ticket holder). The 500 number is the actual number of season tickets that would be sold for that season. So only 500 people at any one show can possibly be season ticket holders (and that is only if they register prior to tickets being sold out). This number is all supply and demand. If there is great interest, I don't see why the price and number of season tickets offered can't go up. But based on the "up front money theory" the price per show would be much lower for the people who actually attend often.... that is my point. It would put the "club" back in the club.
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Originally posted by Doctor Doom:
One good way to keep 9:30 clubgoing costs down... tie one on before you leave home, then stay away from the bar except for the water jugs and plastic cups!
Yeah, but if enough do that, the price will eventually trickle (I sound like Regan) into ticket prices. The club has to make money.
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If clubs/venues/promoters would simply add the service charge to each ticket and not advertise the increased fees as a "service charge", no one would complain.
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Originally posted by helicon1:
If clubs/venues/promoters would simply add the service charge to each ticket and not advertise the increased fees as a "service charge", no one would complain.
Yes they would.
It just hit me that this is probably a reaction to some people bitching about $25 for the Blur show. In that case, I can fully understand where Seth is coming from. First, everyone cried because Blur were not playing DC. Finally, he gets them booked in the club and people are whining about the cost. He only did what we inadvertantly asked him to do.
You have to remember, no matter what you think of Blur now or Damon's supposed prickiness, they have more than proven themselves to the record companies and have worked their way up the pay scale. It cost a bit more but it far surpasses affordability than the Dave Gahan show.
Another factor is that there is so much backlash on Blur now. Blur are another band that it's cool to not like anymore. :roll:
Bottom line, don't worry too much Seth. Most of these whiners will be there front and center. Just let them blow off a little wind for awhile.
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there's nothing wrong with having a budget and sticking to it, and therefore only being able to afford to go to a certain number of shows, and therefore being upset when high ticket prices reduce that amount of shows. and that's pretty much everybody - we all have limits. so, as a businessperson, it behooves me to keep the ticket prices down so that more people will go to more shows. so, nobody needs to motivate me to keep ticket prices down. the ticket price, by the way, is mostly set by the artists' representatives, with our input considered. it all comes down to how much money they want to make.
what bothers me is when people whine about as some sort of moral rights violation, or to dissect it like a broker's stock analysis. which, again, I ask those people, how would you like it if your employer constantly questioned your wage?
anyway, the reason I ended that with a question about Cremaster was because I always seem to be drawn into financial discussions and would love to make conversation about something else here. my own fault, yes, but...lovely weather we're having here lately, isn't it?
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perhaps i shouldn't haven't attached the dollar amount to my blur query... my interest was more in what material are they playing this tours. was it a greatest hits type tour? will it feature primarily material from think tank. an album which i feel no real compelling reason to buy and most people have seem to have the same reaction to. if it dosen't sellout and the reviews are positive and i'm in town that weekend i might end up going.
and in response to your query... yes it is worth doing it for my $25 or whatever i pay to get into the best club in the area. without the 9:30 club a whole lot of us could be trekking to philly for instance on a fairly regular basis. something that would wear thin for me quickly. then i'd really be moaning about the price of ticket....
thanks to the "lovely" weather of late the back 40 is so swampy that when branches fall of the tree that actually end up sticking straight up in the ground. quite the sight... but it's froggy courting season so there's lots of leaping and croaking going on in the pond.
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Seth, you remind me of the 50something guy in my office who still likes to go to rock and roll shows. When he asks me if I'm going to this show or that show, sometimes I tell him the price is too steep for me. He'll arrogantly reply "Oh price doesn't matter to me. Doesn't matter if it's $5 or $50, if I want to go, I'll go." Of course, he makes 2.5 times as much as I do, so I can see where he's coming from.
Yes, we live in a city where a lot of people of professionals, and a lot of those professionals make such good salaries that they don't even have to question their spending. But some do.
I totally agree with what Yank, Vansmack, and Jag had to say. To exemplify what Vansmack said, I'm going to 7 shows in the next two weeks, many of them by some of my favorite artists. This is more than I usually go to, but with so many good acts at affordable costs, I just had to do it. I've got" DRive By Truckers ($12), Pernice Brothers ($10), Bob Mould (free) Slobberbone ($10), Jayhawks ($25 ouch!...but of course it's at the 9:30, what do you expect?), Rhett Miller and Nickel Creek (free), and Steve Earle (free). All in all, seven shows for $57.
If I can get 7 great shows for $57 (which is still above my budget) why on earth would I pay $40 to see a show? You might argue that if I really liked the band, I'd be willing to pay...but not true. Wilco is my favorite band, and I refused to pony up $30+ to see a show.
And Myuman...interesting idea about the season tickets. But I don't think it's economically feasible. Seth will basger us about counting our dollars, but I'm sure he would do the same thing himself and see that season passes would not make sense. 500 passes at $250 would only generate $125,000 in guaranteed ticket revenue. The club could generate that much with 6 sold out $25 shows. It would be way too much of a hassle for the club, with no financial benefits. And that's the bottom line.
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You all need to quit bitching..
930 is one of the best small venues in the country and frankly the tickets are reasonably priced in my opinion. Sure there are occasionally 35.00-40.00 dollar shows. However, those are usually acts that you would almost never get to see this close and intimate as the 930 is and thus thats why the ticket price is more. I have seen so many great acts at 930 through the years and its always been a relatively safe enviroment with the best sound Ive heard in the area. The same acts you see come through 930 play similar venues in other cities, and I can tell, most of these venues are dumps with crappy sound, bad security, and they treat the bands like crap a lot of times.
That being said, ticket fees and handling charges are outrageous. Seth has no control over that however, he has to do business with one of the corporate evils to get tickets conveniently distributed. That is just the way it is. 930 makes little to no money off the artist Im guessing and everything off beer, food, and parking, its a business remember. I think the prices are very fair for the caliber of artists we get to see in such a great setting.
Just my two cents...
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I've never complained about ticket prices and i've always appreciated what 9:30 does/is. My only problem is that I like going to shows on a whim, but I can't do that too often when it always seems to be a $50 night.
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Ticket prices are very reasonable for the most part. $40 to see a great band is a bargain. You can't get a decent meal in a nice restaurant for that anymore. The unfortunate thing for the club is the more expensive the ticket, the less I spend on beer and food while at the show.
I think the opposite end of the spectrum is the problem, and were Seth and the bands lose out. If a ticket is $10 but the ticketbastard charges are another $7.32 or whatever it comes to. On principal I'm not going to go to that show. There's no question that I would go "check out" a lot more bands if a $10 ticket was actualy closer to $10 than $20.
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Yeah, it's beautiful today. Mid-70's, low humidity. Makes me want to play hookie.
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Hey Seth,
I think tickets for most shows are great value. $25 for blur is a steal.
I wanted to see Cremaster, but the reviews of it put me off some what. Non-narritive films that as a series last for what, 9 hours. It really does all sound a bit wanky doesnt it? I saw images from the films at the hirshorn about 3 years back and they were beautiful.
So did you go and see it? And if so would you recommend it?
I thought about asking the forum about it, but I knew someone would just put it into dictionary.com
what a great name.
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a number of good and interesting points have been made in this thread, and some crappy ones from crybabies too, but thats what a message board is good for sometimes, i've got one main point to make, i would usually pay whatever to see a band at 930, if i liked the band, and if i thought the price was way to high, I'd say to myself , boy that band sucks why are they ripping me when i already buy all the cd's and support them that way...because i know its not the club who is doing it, not when sometimes i see great bands for cheap....but really it comes down to the fact that 930 is a great venue! Anything to keep me from having to go see a band at NIssan pavilion, not only is it completely generic ambience, pain in the ass parking, the staff is HORRIBLE, and you can't even get in without paying $30+ and that means being in the lawn which in 930 terms puts you in the back parking lot
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I thought the 9:30 Club was a LARGE venue, not a small one.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Seth, you remind me of the 50something guy in my office who still likes to go to rock and roll shows. When he asks me if I'm going to this show or that show, sometimes I tell him the price is too steep for me. He'll arrogantly reply "Oh price doesn't matter to me. Doesn't matter if it's $5 or $50, if I want to go, I'll go." Of course, he makes 2.5 times as much as I do, so I can see where he's coming from.
And Myuman...interesting idea about the season tickets. But I don't think it's economically feasible. Seth will basger us about counting our dollars, but I'm sure he would do the same thing himself and see that season passes would not make sense. 500 passes at $250 would only generate $125,000 in guaranteed ticket revenue. The club could generate that much with 6 sold out $25 shows. It would be way too much of a hassle for the club, with no financial benefits. And that's the bottom line.
I think there's a huge difference between having a budget for shows, or anything else, and just bitching about prices. I think at some point, people lose sight of the fact there is a business involved, and take ticket prices as a personal affront. Like you mentioned, the bottom line is that the 930 is a business and has to run as such. While I guess I have a budget for shows, I'l always make exceptions for my favorite bands (like Wilco at $30) as concerts are a great value compared to other forms of entertainment (someone mentioned dining out already) and the 930 is a great venue. My two cents, anyway.
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I generally think that concerts, eating out, movies, etc are poor values for my entertainment dollar. I view these things as special treats that should be done once in awhile.
Good values include a walk or jog in the park, hanging out in Dupont Circle on a sunny day, watching a ballgame or race on tv, cooking a meal that is usually better than restaurant food myself, having sex with my wife, riding my bike, or driving out to the mountains and hiking.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I generally think that concerts, eating out, movies, etc are poor values for my entertainment dollar. I view these things as special treats that should be done once in awhile.
Good values include a walk or jog in the park, hanging out in Dupont Circle on a sunny day, watching a ballgame or race on tv, cooking a meal that is usually better than restaurant food myself, having sex with my wife, riding my bike, or driving out to the mountains and hiking.
To each their own.
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I could also add reading a book or going to the National Gallery as good entertainment values.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I could also add reading a book or going to the National Gallery as good entertainment values.
Baltimore hookers are a good value too. or the flask that i take to bars and just buy cokes and mix my own drinks ;)
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I too was put off by the reviews for Cremaster.
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I got no problem with the ticket prices. I've gotten to see icons like Lou Reed, Dolly Parton, Johnny Cash, and Patti Smith at a small club. I'll pay the extra dough to avoid the big venues.
My concern is my bar tabs but that's more of a "my liver issue" than a "Seth issue."
Sadly, I think DC concert goers take for granted the ability to see huge acts in an intimate environment.
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I thought I had two cents to offer this subject but I checked my pockets and I had a nickel.
On the season ticket idea, it's not half bad. The NORVA in Norfolk offers just that. For $4,000 (yes you read that correctly), you get two tickets for every single show in a calender year and access to a VIP lounge. If 9:30 offered something similar, I'd be all over it. But man, I'd hate to read the thread that would ensue. It's especially hypocritical when this area offers plenty of free music (Kennedy Center's Millenium Stage), Fort Reno, etc. Think a music fan in South Dakota wouldn't pay double the amount that you are complaining about to see a band they love just play their state, much less a cool club they can take public transportation to? If these young fans are being deprived of music because of high ticket prices, why do they all have cell phones?
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Good values include a walk or jog in the park, hanging out in Dupont Circle on a sunny day, watching a ballgame or race on tv, cooking a meal that is usually better than restaurant food myself, having sex with my wife, riding my bike, or driving out to the mountains and hiking.
I always found having sex with your wife good value too. ;)
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Originally posted by Lamb007:
I thought I had two cents to offer this subject but I checked my pockets and I had a nickel.
On the season ticket idea, it's not half bad. The NORVA in Norfolk offers just that. For $4,000 (yes you read that correctly),
4000, divided by 2 people.....
2000 at say $20 a show , that would mean you would have to see a hundred shows for it to be worthwhile. I wonder if that makes for a lot of ticket scalping?
50 shows at $20 X2 people.... making $2000 would be great though.
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
Originally posted by Lamb007:
I thought I had two cents to offer this subject but I checked my pockets and I had a nickel.
On the season ticket idea, it's not half bad. The NORVA in Norfolk offers just that. For $4,000 (yes you read that correctly),
4000, divided by 2 people.....
2000 at say $20 a show , that would mean you would have to see a hundred shows for it to be worthwhile. I wonder if that makes for a lot of ticket scalping?
50 shows at $20 X2 people.... making $2000 would be great though. [/b]
I don't think that most real concert goers would or could go for this plan. Besides, too many corporate types would end up going for it. Bands usually hate shows that are full of Industry people because they are so unenthusiastic. This would be even worse. You think it's bad now with this <img src="http://www.svenreck.claranet.de/smileys/traurig/traurig050.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://www.svenreck.claranet.de/smileys/traurig/traurig050.gif" alt=" - " />. It would be even worse.
And just think of all the stadiums that often have empty unused corporate seats. The venue is too small to play those games. You're only going to end up losing a lot of drink sales and leave out a lot of the true fans who aren't in a position for such luxuries.
The only thing that might be a win/win deal that might work out would be some sort of an Insider's Club with a very minimal fee that would allow access to presale tickets for several days. That way, the members get first crack at high profile shows but the club and bands lose nothing once they go on sale to the public. Maybe throw in a quartly mini magazine of past and upcoming shows with pictures, articles, etc so that they feel like they are getting something for their fee besides dibbs on tickets. Maybe even a free drink coupon for each member when they sign up. Depending on the cost, maybe one free $15 or under show for non-sold out shows.
All in all, I just don't think Rock N Rollers would go for something like that. Excluding sports, it's usually the corporations who keep those things going for tax write-offs, benies to clients and employees or used as a status association. Your average Rock N Roller can't come up with that kind of money all at once or would choose to hang loose and see what the year brings them.
And then there would be all the extra accounting, ticketing and other related work on the Club's part. Would it really be worth all the extra bother?
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I agree with you mostly Jag, but it would be cool to be able to get into some non-sold out shows for free, espeially if they were shows you only had a passing interest in. I guess the ticket giveaway is a reasonable solution..... They should give away more tickets to non sold out shows.
The club lub idea is great, but that is kind of like what volume is already......
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Corporate types? I'm not so sure... If the club hosts a slate like in past years, why would a corporate type be interested in no name bands like spiritualized, Super Furry Animals, Interpol, Sigur ros, or even Blur for that matter. The corporate glitz is down at the big arena to catch Brittany, Christina, and Justin... so they can impress their grandchildren. I still think the season pass is workable to a win win scenario.
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how many shows actually sell out the day of, and in a matter of hours, or minutes in that case? in the last 2 years, the only one i can think of is coldplay last august that sold out entirely via presale. that was a major rarity. other shows sold out in a day, but that was between buying at the club (like me, hell no to service charges) and people that went thru tickets.com. are there really that many shows (kosmo, eddie, thatguy, correct me if i'm wrong) that sell out that quick that would warrant some sort of special deal for regular concert goers not to get shut out of tickets? a regular concert goer would probably make sure they were on a T1 line at 10 am when tickets go on sale or hightail it at lunch to the 930 box office. so is some sort of deal needed?
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All of these are very good points which is why I don't believe that any of the proposed ideas are worth pursuing. Myuman, your point about the corporate types not going for 9:30 shows is one of the points that I failed to make in my previous threads...which is one of the reasons that I believe that it would never work.
Like I said, way too many 9:30 types can't afford that sort of deal or just won't bother to commit themselves that much.
Lily, if memory serves me correctly, there were a number of shows that sold out way before the date of the show but it seems they were usually the ones that most of us boarders scoffed at. A lot of MTV hyped shows as oppossed to NME hyped shows. Maybe a couple cult following bands too.
Also, one of the problems with pre-release internet sales is that not everyone has access to the internet at 10AM in the morning. There are lots and lots of jobs that would not allow someone that luxury. And then you have the 'traffic' problems. It's a great idea but not perfect. Sure beats camping out at some ticket box which is something I won't do. Also, not all of us live or work close enough to the club to make it worth making a trek over. But then, that's what ticket agencies are for.
Kind of ironic how an album called Think Tank would turn us all into some sort of 9:30 Think Tank. :D
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Damn! Wrong button. :o
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the only thing a yearly ticket would really accopmplish is to force people to commit to going to a certain number of shows per year. but people that have that kind of money and inclination would probably go to that many shows anyway. and cashflow is not really an issue for us.
we've actually discussed the idea of selling a "VIP" area where people who have bought tickets can hang unobstructed (like the coat check area maybe). but I find the whole "VIP" concept offensive. I want the 930 to be "equal access entertainment" (except, of course, for me and my friends).
but what does everyone else think of that?
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if you're going to make a vip area, make it the are where the guests of the opening band are allowed to watch the show. that little deck area right across the stage from the area where the headlining artists' guests get to watch the show. i'd be all over that.
but then again, i rather like the democratic/darwinian method of getting there early to secure your spot right up front. its a general admission club, which is one of its biggest assets. you can get as close or far from the artist as you like.
Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
we've actually discussed the idea of selling a "VIP" area where people who have bought tickets can hang unobstructed (like the coat check area maybe). but I find the whole "VIP" concept offensive. I want the 930 to be "equal access entertainment" (except, of course, for me and my friends).
but what does everyone else think of that?
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Totally agree with you, Seth. You're running a rock and roll nightclub, not a country club.
Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
the only thing a yearly ticket would really accopmplish is to force people to commit to going to a certain number of shows per year. but people that have that kind of money and inclination would probably go to that many shows anyway. and cashflow is not really an issue for us.
we've actually discussed the idea of selling a "VIP" area where people who have bought tickets can hang unobstructed (like the coat check area maybe). but I find the whole "VIP" concept offensive. I want the 930 to be "equal access entertainment" (except, of course, for me and my friends).
but what does everyone else think of that?
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can i be your friend?
don't think the VIP area would really be hit with many of the regulars here, seeing as most of them like to hang out in front of the stage. and isn't that what the backbar is for anyway.
my thoughts on the subscription plan is that i wouldn't want to commit to certain number of show a year. i would however be willing to pony up a membership fee for the privledge of being able to buy presale tickets direct from the club throughout the year without having to pay the tickets.com fees. obviously the number of tickets available this way would have to be limited, but then again not everyone in the 9:30 fan club would be getting tickets to every show. rules would have to be in place to prevent ticket brokers from taking advantage. it would be nice if older members would have priority in requests for tickets over newcomers. then again all of this sounds like similar clear channel tatics. but it could save fanclub members time and money.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
Totally agree with you, Seth. You're running a rock and roll nightclub, not a country club.
LOL. Reminds me of someone that I use to know.
Yeah, I don't think most of us would find being set up back in upper rafters as being all that desirable. Now, if you had Woods in his white jacket waiting on them, GGW might go for it.
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I don't think there should be any vip section, fan clubs or any advantages for anybody (unless of course you are friends with the owner). I think the current way it works is pretty damn good. Buying tickets at 9:30 and the variety of ways you can do it is very convenient compared to a lot of other places.
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yeah, that's true jadetree. the box office hours are far more accessible at the 930 clubthan say the black cat, where you have to wait until 8.30pm when they open up for the night, or iota, which does no early ticket sales.
i love that i can just hop over there after work, get my tickets, and continue on my merry way. whatever you do seth, don't change the box office hours.
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Yeah. Really the 930 works just fine for me. The longer you leave it alone, the happier I will be.
Although I would love to watch a show from Seths balcony sometime, just to see what it is like.....
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The concept of a VIP section is offensive and decidedly un rock and roll. But if you asked me if I'd pay $$ to have a guaranteed excellent vantage point without lining up an hour before the doors open, I'd probably be one of the losers who'd shell out for it. I'm no "corporate type," but I go to at least a half dozen shows at 9:30 every month. I tend to be not only a late arriver, but a short (as in undersized) late arriver. Not a good combo. So knowing I'd have a perch awaiting me would be cool. And I don't care if the kids in Dropkick Murphys shirts give me the finger or fire spitballs at me up there in my ivory tower. I'm old but I still like a rock show. Just can't "ROCK" like I did in my 20's. Seth could just rent me a stool on his balcony.
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there's no point in me adding anymore to this thread because the boxseat at the muppet theatre appears to be full of dc living elistists who never need to sit down after a hard day
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<img src="http://www.muppets.com/profiles/graphics/StatlerWaldorf_s.jpg" alt=" - " />
So, we've got Rhett on one side complaining about the lack of country music fans, and Mankie on the other complaining about new music.
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Originally posted by kosmo:
there's no point in me adding anymore to this thread because the boxseat at the muppet theatre appears to be full of dc living elistists who never need to sit down after a hard day
So wanting a VIP section or ticket buying for people who have been in a club longer is not elitist?
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since when is wanting to have a little more convience and less bother in one's life being an eltist. i belong the the pearl jam club for the ablitity to get tickets without having to deal with ticketmaster.
it would be more convient if i could simply send an email to the 9:30 boxoffice to get tickets without the tickets.com fees, verses having to metro or drive into the city. if i were working or living in dc it would be easier, but at the moment i don't. and there are plenty of suburban 9:30 patrons how might be willing to pay for the same convience.
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A VIP section would subsidize lower prices for the less fortunate. It's a win-win situation. We...I mean 'those'...elitists would shell out a few more clams for a guaranteed vantage point, while the groundlings would benefit from a slightly reduced ticket price.
It's the American Way.
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Those who say paying extra for convenience is elitist are those who can't afford to pay for the conveniences themselves.
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so poker night at my place :cool:
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I find the elitist arugument to be silly as well. Look at the diversity of acts booked here. They appeal to a huge range of ages. There are little tykes and old farts like me, often times at the exact same show. Ok, going back to the F street days, I use to be one of those kids who lined up in the hallway two hours before shows so I could get pressed right up against the stage. Been there done that. Kids can still do that at the new digs with or without a VIP section. It's not like anyone's access is being altered. If the VIP section was a roped off section directly in front of the stage, that would suck. But to designate coat check or some out of the way section for older fans who, yes happen to have a bit more disposable income than the young 'uns, wouldn't hurt a thing. I like to see the show but I don't need to be down with the masses at this point in my life. Besides, I'm certain I personally have covered a few of Mr. Hurwitz's mortgage payments over the years. If I wanna be an ELITIST snob, so be it. I've paid my dues. Put me at the top of the mailing list if this ever becomes a possibility.
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Originally posted by mankie:
Those who say paying extra for convenience is elitist are those who can't afford to pay for the conveniences themselves.
you are full of sayings that are complete bullshit arent you
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Originally posted by kosmo:
wanting to have a little more convience and less bother in one's life
exactly why I live in dc, which is the original reason the elitist word was used wasn't it?
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Originally posted by Lamb007:
I find the elitist arugument to be silly as well. Look at the diversity of acts booked here. They appeal to a huge range of ages. There are little tykes and old farts like me, often times at the exact same show. Ok, going back to the F street days, I use to be one of those kids who lined up in the hallway two hours before shows so I could get pressed right up against the stage. Been there done that. Kids can still do that at the new digs with or without a VIP section. It's not like anyone's access is being altered. If the VIP section was a roped off section directly in front of the stage, that would suck. But to designate coat check or some out of the way section for older fans who, yes happen to have a bit more disposable income than the young 'uns, wouldn't hurt a thing. I like to see the show but I don't need to be down with the masses at this point in my life. Besides, I'm certain I personally have covered a few of Mr. Hurwitz's mortgage payments over the years. If I wanna be an ELITIST snob, so be it. I've paid my dues. Put me at the top of the mailing list if this ever becomes a possibility.
You make it sound like the old folks home at the 9:30 Club. <img src="http://66.227.101.70/contrib/blackeye/hihi.gif" alt=" - " />
Personally, I don't care whether there is one up there or not. I just don't think that I would enjoy myself that far away.
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Originally posted by eertedaj:
you are full of sayings that are complete bullshit arent you
[/b]
those who critisize other peoples quotes have nothing constructive to add to the discussion themselves.
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Sounds good. Don't call it the VIP section. Call it the 9:30 Club Retirement Section for former rawkers. Or give it a nice warm and fuzzy moniker...Tranquility Oaks or something.
It's not that I don't like the new music (and I am under 40 so I guess old isn't an accurate term). But where I use to long to be right up against the stage and in the middle of the mayhem, I prefer now to hang back a bit (usually up on the balcony stairs) and just appreciate the tunes. If there was a section for like minded folks, I'd pony up some bucks. That's all. And don't get me started on how much I'd just like to be able to sit the hell down sometimes.
So Seth...what dya say. Can you put me on the list for the "assisted living" section?
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Originally posted by eertedaj:
Originally posted by kosmo:
wanting to have a little more convience and less bother in one's life
exactly why I live in dc, which is the original reason the elitist word was used wasn't it? [/b]
guilty of making a snide remark... i happen to prefer the quiet and green of where i live. plus i can't afford nice property in dc, because of a bunch of elistists have gentrified most of the city.
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Exactly one of our reasons for moving to the burbs in a year or two....assuming we stay in the area.
I tend to think most of the areas elitists are people within the DC City limits anyway.
Originally posted by kosmo:
Originally posted by eertedaj:
Originally posted by kosmo:
wanting to have a little more convience and less bother in one's life
exactly why I live in dc, which is the original reason the elitist word was used wasn't it? [/b]
guilty of making a snide remark... i happen to prefer the quiet and green of where i live. plus i can't afford nice property in dc, because of a bunch of elistists have gentrified most of the city. [/b]
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Originally posted by Metal Meltdown:
You all need to quit bitching..
930 is one of the best small venues in the country and frankly the tickets are reasonably priced in my opinion. Sure there are occasionally 35.00-40.00 dollar shows. However, those are usually acts that you would almost never get to see this close and intimate as the 930 is and thus thats why the ticket price is more. I have seen so many great acts at 930 through the years and its always been a relatively safe enviroment with the best sound Ive heard in the area. The same acts you see come through 930 play similar venues in other cities, and I can tell, most of these venues are dumps with crappy sound, bad security, and they treat the bands like crap a lot of times.
That being said, ticket fees and handling charges are outrageous. Seth has no control over that however, he has to do business with one of the corporate evils to get tickets conveniently distributed. That is just the way it is. 930 makes little to no money off the artist Im guessing and everything off beer, food, and parking, its a business remember. I think the prices are very fair for the caliber of artists we get to see in such a great setting.
Just my two cents...
I couldn't agree more (I haven't gotten all the way through the thread, but since Seth is reading it, I want to second the plus side). In fact, I'm amazed at how many shows are $10 - 15 bucks. Lots. When a Dave Gahan comes through for $40 (I might spend $5 to see him, but that's about it), you just know that's the artist setting that price. And Blur is a band that has absolutely ravenous fans. And y'all didn't even think they'd come through.
There's a reason it's usually the retro acts coming through that cost upwards of $25. In their own minds, they have an audience already, and they're worth it.
I'm spoiled, I admit -- I live in DC so I *always* buy my tickets at the box office; I never pay ticketbastard charges (except for shows like the White Stripes at yucky venues I have to put up with). The charges suck ass, but it has nothing to do with the club (imagine how infuriating it is to pay $5 in service charges on a $10 ticket -- if *only* the 9:30 club got some of that!).
My two cents...
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I tend to think most of the areas elitists are people within the DC City limits anyway.
ever been to the Mercedes garage in Bethesda or Porsche in arlington....
last year, near where I work, on the edge of Bethesda were "affordable starter homes from the mid 400s"
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Originally posted by bags:
There's a reason it's usually the retro acts coming through that cost upwards of $25. In their own minds, they have an audience already, and they're worth it.
My two cents...
I thought the retro acts charged that much because they were trying to make money from touring.... They are no longer selling or even making new material in a lot of cases (Pistols are an example)
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Leather armchairs. It should have big leather armchairs and big green-glass ashtrays so I can suck down a couple of Romeo y Julieta Churchills while I'm rocking out.
And waitresses -- scantily clad waitresses. Maybe in little French Maid outfits.
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I didn't mean that the richest people live in DC, I meant that the snobbiest people live in DC. The type of people who look down on suburbanites and think of them only as culturally illiterate breeders. The type of people who think that living in a city somehow makes them superior to others. Often they are people who DON'T have money.
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I tend to think most of the areas elitists are people within the DC City limits anyway.
ever been to the Mercedes garage in Bethesda or Porsche in arlington....
last year, near where I work, on the edge of Bethesda were "affordable starter homes from the mid 400s" [/b]
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Originally posted by ggw:
Leather armchairs. It should have big leather armchairs and big green-glass ashtrays so I can suck down a couple of Romeo y Julieta Churchills while I'm rocking out.
And waitresses -- scantily clad waitresses. Maybe in little French Maid outfits.
I like the leather armchairs, but there should be a non-smoking section...and there should be 13 year old Thai girls to come massage my feet...
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Oh...Leather Rocking Chairs. "Rockers for Former Rawkers."
And how about a TV monitor that's captioned. That would be especially helpful during Shane McGowan, The Vines, and other shows featuring marble-mouthed singers.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I didn't mean that the richest people live in DC, I meant that the snobbiest people live in DC. The type of people who look down on suburbanites and think of them only as culturally illiterate breeders. The type of people who think that living in a city somehow makes them superior to others. Often they are people who DON'T have money.
Sounds kind of like you.....
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I didn't mean that the richest people live in DC, I meant that the snobbiest people live in DC. The type of people who look down on suburbanites and think of them only as culturally illiterate breeders. The type of people who think that living in a city somehow makes them superior to others. Often they are people who DON'T have money.
I have never noticed that. America is a plutocracy. The richer the people the more likely to be a complete fucker. I have spotted no difference either side of the MD/DC line. If anything the MDers look down on DCs poorer neighbours and their higher crime rate and crappier schools.
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
...America is a plutocracy...
<img src="http://www.gaffney-sc.com/images/pluto2.jpg" alt=" - " />
huh?
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Originally posted by ggw:
And waitresses -- scantily clad waitresses. Maybe in little French Maid outfits.
That's the best thing that has been said on this thread.
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Originally posted by Jaguär:
Also, one of the problems with pre-release internet sales is that not everyone has access to the internet at 10AM in the morning. There are lots and lots of jobs that would not allow someone that luxury. And then you have the 'traffic' problems. It's a great idea but not perfect. Sure beats camping out at some ticket box which is something I won't do. Also, not all of us live or work close enough to the club to make it worth making a trek over. But then, that's what ticket agencies are for.
The White Stripes pre-sale was an annoying and insipid exercise. In my opinion, it was a way to ensure you had to pay ticketmaster surcharges. There were three passwords, and everyone I know got a ticket that way. If you have access to online purchases.
By the by, no slight on 9:30 for sending out a password. If it's going on, you may as well tell us about it. It's just so inane.
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
last year, near where I work, on the edge of Bethesda were "affordable starter homes from the mid 400s"
[/b]
That would get you a nice starter condo in NW DC.
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
I have never noticed that. America is a plutocracy. The richer the people the more likely to be a complete fucker. I have spotted no difference either side of the MD/DC line. If anything the MDers look down on DCs poorer neighbours and their higher crime rate and crappier schools. [/b]
HA! Apparently you still haven't seen the worst of Baltimore yet. Not that I would wish that on you.
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Originally posted by ggw:
And waitresses -- scantily clad waitresses. Maybe in little French Maid outfits.
And get rid of the miserable bastard that works the back bar and turn it into a place were these scantily clad waitresses give lap dances.
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Yes -- all that is nice -- but it needs something more. Something that seperates the 930 from the rest of the pack.
And that is where HAND SANITIZING LOTION comes in. Sure, the 930 has promotional matchbooks, but what bar doesn't?
Originally posted by ggw:
Leather armchairs. It should have big leather armchairs and big green-glass ashtrays so I can suck down a couple of Romeo y Julieta Churchills while I'm rocking out.
And waitresses -- scantily clad waitresses. Maybe in little French Maid outfits.
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
last year, near where I work, on the edge of Bethesda were "affordable starter homes from the mid 400s"
[/b]
That would get you a nice starter condo in NW DC. [/b]
Not all of DC is the NW I am sure you can buy a house in DC for less, just not somewhere very nice to live.
condos are starting around $150 to $200 these days.....
Oh and the Bethesda houses were terraced and just like a two storey condo.
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Originally posted by kosmo:
9:30 fan club
I like that. very succinct.
yes, that would be the goal - to reward our regular patrons without it turning into any kind of elitism.
suggestions?
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Originally posted by Celeste:
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
...America is a plutocracy...
<img src="http://www.gaffney-sc.com/images/pluto2.jpg" alt=" - " />
[/b]
errrr
3 entries found for plutocracy.
plu·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-tkr-s)
n. pl. plu·toc·ra·cies
1. Government by the wealthy.
2. A wealthy class that controls a government.
3. A government or state in which the wealthy rule
sound familiar Minnie <img src="http://iquebec.ifrance.com/tresors-catherine/minnie-mouse-heart.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by kosmo:
can i be your friend?
don't think the VIP area would really be hit with many of the regulars here, seeing as most of them like to hang out in front of the stage. and isn't that what the backbar is for anyway.
my thoughts on the subscription plan is that i wouldn't want to commit to certain number of show a year. i would however be willing to pony up a membership fee for the privledge of being able to buy presale tickets direct from the club throughout the year without having to pay the tickets.com fees. obviously the number of tickets available this way would have to be limited, but then again not everyone in the 9:30 fan club would be getting tickets to every show. rules would have to be in place to prevent ticket brokers from taking advantage. it would be nice if older members would have priority in requests for tickets over newcomers. then again all of this sounds like similar clear channel tatics. but it could save fanclub members time and money.
Actually, a few times I've gotten quite close to calling the club and asking, heyl what can I pay for access to the VIP area in front of the upstairs bar? I think it's a great idea. While I love love love to see bands at 9:30, I'm not going down front anymore. I'd love to have a great view from upstairs, close to a bar and with room to dance! I've never wanted to mention it because I assume then everyone will want to do it. But hey, it's not like I have access now!
As for the subscription, someone already made an excellent point. Someone willing to pay for something like that is already going to go to every show he/she wants to see. Obviously, money isn't an issue. I could afford a subscription, but wouldn't bother because I always see what I want to see anyway. Don't think I've ever not gotten tickets to a show (graned, I'm not seeing Michele Branch....)
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
Originally posted by kosmo:
9:30 fan club
I like that. very succinct.
yes, that would be the goal - to reward our regular patrons without it turning into any kind of elitism.
suggestions? [/b]
free passes to non sold out shows for people who go to more than 24 930 club shows a year.
Get people to non sold out shows and if they get in for free will probably buy a few beers to a show they probably would not have otherwise gone to.
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by ggw:
And waitresses -- scantily clad waitresses. Maybe in little French Maid outfits.
And get rid of the miserable bastard that works the back bar and turn it into a place were these scantily clad waitresses give lap dances. [/b]
No way! He's my favorite! And that's coming from a bartender's point of view. ;)
Forget the scantily clad waitresses. The club is already outnumbered by attractive women. We need more sexy guys waiting on us hand and foot. Sexy guys in tight pants. I'm not sticking around for any women. I want some male action.
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"3 entries found for plutocracy.
plu·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-tkr-s)
n. pl. plu·toc·ra·cies
1. Government by the wealthy.
2. A wealthy class that controls a government.
3. A government or state in which the wealthy rule
sound familiar Minnie"
That's exactly what America is.
Oh uh! Mankie and Mark...Sorry, Andrew, have agreed with each other twice in the same day! :eek:
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Yes, we should be ruled by the poor. They're not bright or resourceful enough to get a decent job, but let's put them in charge of leading the country.
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
Originally posted by kosmo:
9:30 fan club
I like that. very succinct.
yes, that would be the goal - to reward our regular patrons without it turning into any kind of elitism.
suggestions? [/b]
Free tickets for Forum Members with 3,000 posts or more.
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Originally posted by ggw:
Yes, we should be ruled by the poor. They're not bright or resourceful enough to get a decent job, but let's put them in charge of leading the country.
GGW makes a bit of a point with this snide comment, though, don't y'all think?
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Originally posted by ggw:
Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
Originally posted by kosmo:
9:30 fan club
I like that. very succinct.
yes, that would be the goal - to reward our regular patrons without it turning into any kind of elitism.
suggestions? [/b]
Free tickets for Forum Members with 3,000 posts or more. [/b]
I second that motion. ;)
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Originally posted by Celeste:
Originally posted by ggw:
Yes, we should be ruled by the poor. They're not bright or resourceful enough to get a decent job, but let's put them in charge of leading the country.
GGW makes a bit of a point with this snide comment, though, don't y'all think? [/b]
There's a little bit of elitism in all of us....
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Originally posted by ggw:
Yes, we should be ruled by the poor. They're not bright or resourceful enough to get a decent job, but let's put them in charge of leading the country.
Wealth does not make you intelligent. It does however buy you the publicity that it takes to win an election. (how much did the current NY mayor spend on his campaign)
Personally I would like to live in a meritocracy.
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Hey, I never said the "plutocracy" was a bad thing, but with all the soft money and special interest money it is definately a government controlled by the wealthy.
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Originally posted by Celeste:
Originally posted by ggw:
Yes, we should be ruled by the poor. They're not bright or resourceful enough to get a decent job, but let's put them in charge of leading the country.
GGW makes a bit of a point with this snide comment, though, don't y'all think? [/b]
No, not all. How easily smoke screened you are.
Just because you are poor does not stop you being intelligent or having good ideas. Celeste, what kind of a fucker are you?
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My suggestion:
Simply do away with the VIP section in its current incarnation (i.e. A&R losers who chat on their cells through the whole show) and make access available on a per show basis, sold the same way you do access to the parking lot. First Come First Served.
Or offer an annual subscription package that provides access but does not include tickets.
The current "VIP area" in front of the balcony bar is a primo location that is currently squandered on people who don't care diddly poo about what's happening on stage.
I don't know how to properly institute a "reward" system because some people (like me) will pay to see acts I have only a casual interest in while some other loyal patrons have to pick and choose when they come.
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mer·i·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mr-tkr-s)
n. pl. mer·i·toc·ra·cies
1. A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement.
2.
a. A group of leaders or officeholders selected on the basis of individual ability or achievement.
b. Leadership by such a group.
meritocracy
n 1: a form of social system in which power goes to those with superior intellects 2: the belief that rulers should be chosen for their superior abilities and not because of their wealth or birth
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
Celeste, what kind of a fucker are you?
[/b]
She's the kind of fucker who's bad-ass husband will spit in your face if you call her names.
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Uh oh......
not spit, I bet it will have (tobacco) 'baccie in it too...... ick.
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i like the idea of a VIP membership to access tickets early as well as some other special features, but having been a former ticket agent i know that every ticket broker would also take advantage of this. Even if it was only to buy four or five premium shows a year it would still be worth it for them to sign up.
this quote...
"but I find the whole "VIP" concept offensive. I want the 930 to be "equal access entertainment""
...blew me away
this is a club owner looking out for the everyday guy. I had to give some props for that.
Really as much as some of the new ideas intrique me and i am a fan of change, for the sake of good. The thing that makes 930 the best is that, it is first come first serve, best live music venue in North America. I think they might have even have gotten an award for that before.
So don't change
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
mer·i·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mr-tkr-s)
n. pl. mer·i·toc·ra·cies
1. A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement.
2.
a. A group of leaders or officeholders selected on the basis of individual ability or achievement.
b. Leadership by such a group.
meritocracy
n 1: a form of social system in which power goes to those with superior intellects 2: the belief that rulers should be chosen for their superior abilities and not because of their wealth or birth
The problem with meritocracy is the wallies with superior intellect are usually unable to tie their own shoelaces....just because you can calculate the square route of 84759837549257 in your head doesn't mean you have the common sense to govern a country.
Not only that.... "A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement"....would normally mean the college pukes, and you need lorry loads of money to go to college, so aren't we back to a plutocraty?
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Originally posted by Lamb007:
Simply do away with the VIP section in its current incarnation (i.e. A&R losers who chat on their cells through the whole show) and make access available on a per show basis, sold the same way you do access to the parking lot. First Come First Served.
The current "VIP area" in front of the balcony bar is a primo location that is currently squandered on people who don't care diddly poo about what's happening on stage.
Sorry man, but that's the business. If Seth takes care of them, they'll take care of him when the next big "thing" is in town. But it is a good model to work with.
Seth's point about a 9:30 Fan Club sort of begs the question and I appreciate him thinking of taking care of us nonetheless: We all love the club, we are constant visitors and he still wants to take care of us (as opposed to most club owners who would rather try to figure out how to bring in more people to the club).
Just him thinking about us makes me think that there is more to this club than just seeing live bands. Perhaps a model like the upstairs bar for regulars is something to consider, but he surely isn't going to alienate his record execs. Is there room for two sections up there? The VIP for the Vines (off to the side) wasn't a bad gig either - although letting the radio stations grant access does nothing for us regulars. Interesting dillema.
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
mer·i·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mr-tkr-s)
n. pl. mer·i·toc·ra·cies
1. A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement.
2.
a. A group of leaders or officeholders selected on the basis of individual ability or achievement.
b. Leadership by such a group.
meritocracy
n 1: a form of social system in which power goes to those with superior intellects 2: the belief that rulers should be chosen for their superior abilities and not because of their wealth or birth
Like it or not, wealth is a pretty good indicator of superior intellect, ability and achievement. Not perfect, but pretty good.
The current mayor of New York made his billions by seeing a need for an advanced fixed income analytics system, designing and building that system and gradually transforming it into an advanced analytical system for all financial instruments.
Read his biography. He gained his wealth by being the first guy in the office each morning, working harder than the other guys, and by being resourceful. More power to him.
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
mer·i·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mr-tkr-s)
n. pl. mer·i·toc·ra·cies
1. A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement.
2.
a. A group of leaders or officeholders selected on the basis of individual ability or achievement.
b. Leadership by such a group.
meritocracy
n 1: a form of social system in which power goes to those with superior intellects 2: the belief that rulers should be chosen for their superior abilities and not because of their wealth or birth
The problem with meritocracy is the wallies with superior intellect are usually unable to tie their own shoelaces....just because you can calculate the square route of 84759837549257 in your head doesn't mean you have the common sense to govern a country.
Not only that.... "A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement"....would normally mean the college pukes, and you need lorry loads of money to go to college, so aren't we back to a plutocraty? [/b]
You don't need THAT much money to go to college in the U.S. There are plenty of community colleges and state universities, and you can always get loans to go wherever the hell you can get into (I did) and, don't they let you into college for free in Europe if you keep up your grades?
That being said, I don't think college grads have the corner on intelligence, necessarily...nor do I think that poor people cannot have intelligent thoughts or ideas, I only was saying that GGW's point is valid to an extent.
I think that, for the most part, in America, if one is willing to work hard and play by the rules (yes, of capitalism), they can do OK, except for a few bad-luck cases. These bad-luck cases (and even the just too lazy or bad to do anything useful for society cases) are usually provided for by social programs.
So, what's the problem again?
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Originally posted by mankie:
The problem with meritocracy is the wallies with superior intellect are usually unable to tie their own shoelaces....just because you can calculate the square route of 84759837549257 in your head doesn't mean you have the common sense to govern a country.
Have you ever noticed that you only see Mensa stickers on '74 Gremlins, '71 Pintos, or '79 Chevettes?
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so mankie, you bring up two points. the first is a fallacy in my opinion, but then I have a couple of degrees, but I have common sense too.
The second of your points is more valid. But still almost all american kids get to college. So I guess that makes it a much less exclusive club than oil barrons or media giants.
Free education would be the best step.... I guess thats why I come from a working class background, yet have an education.
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What about the richest bloke in the world...clever as shit too! Do you vote for Gates because he's a bright spark, or not vote for him because he's rich....a mark...er, Andrew dilema for sure.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by Lamb007:
[qb]
The VIP for the Vines (off to the side) wasn't a bad gig either - although letting the radio stations grant access does nothing for us regulars. Interesting dillema. [/b]
Oh man, ain't that the truth. As an avid 9:30 club goer, I don't listen to any of the local radio stations. They don't play my music, so why would I? Blech, what a thought.
I'm more and more skeptical of what could be done to make the club better.....
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
so mankie, you bring up two points. the first is a fallacy in my opinion, but then I have a couple of degrees, but I have common sense too.
you didn't demonstrate very much common sense when you went out in public in that body hugging lurex Ferrari little number! :D
I see Michael did the job on Sunday by the way...most of the lads from here went up to Montreal for it. I'd like to see Ralph replace Barichello on the team personally.
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Originally posted by da'niceguys:
i like the idea of a VIP membership to access tickets early as well as some other special features, but having been a former ticket agent i know that every ticket broker would also take advantage of this. Even if it was only to buy four or five premium shows a year it would still be worth it for them to sign up.
Yes, I too have been considering that brokers and scalpers would be scamming a lot of tickets and how to get around that. Also, ways of working with rewarding after show attendance without some counterfiter faking proof of attendance. So far, the closest I can come up with aligning it to the actual fan in attendace is to:
1. Receive a registered membership card through the club that contains specific ID info. May take a week or so to process.
2. Use some sort of scanning device like they have in grocery stores for club cards to check off attendance.
3. Show ID in order to have it scanned so friends aren't racking up false points for members.
I have no idea how expensive this sort of system would cost making it even worth the expense or how much maintaince is needed to keep it going.
Whether the card is free and rewarded afterwards or purchased with benifits is a whole other issue but it could have it's advantages. Or it could just turn out to be just one big pain in the ass.
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So GGW, Bloomberg is a bad example then because he is self made....
But he still bought that election which is still egregious. If he was so smart and clever he wouldnt have needed to have spent so much more money than his competitor? Probably not.
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
so mankie, you bring up two points. the first is a fallacy in my opinion, but then I have a couple of degrees, but I have common sense too.
The second of your points is more valid. But still almost all american kids get to college. So I guess that makes it a much less exclusive club than oil barrons or media giants.
Free education would be the best step.... I guess thats why I come from a working class background, yet have an education.
hold up! almost ALL kids get to college? Thats the silliest thing I have heard in a while. Even if it IS more than 50% (which i am not even sure about), its certainly not almost all. And one college certainly isnt the same as the next. (compare MIT to UMBC) and are we counting Comm. College and Tech Schools?
I may be from Canada , but America sure seems to define elitism to me.
and what about Bovacracy...rule by cows.
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Originally posted by mankie:
you didn't demonstrate very much common sense when you went out in public in that body hugging lurex Ferrari little number! :D
I see Michael did the job on Sunday by the way...most of the lads from here went up to Montreal for it. I'd like to see Ralph replace Barichello on the team personally.
I like my Ferrari T, thankyou very much.
Michael was superb on Sunday..... He has won 4 races this year. He is the master.
Ralf is too good to waste his time as his brothers lackie. I used to think the same about Reubens, but these days he is really shit. He should be shown the door.
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[/qb][/QUOTE]Wealth does not make you intelligent. It does however buy you the publicity that it takes to win an election. (how much did the current NY mayor spend on his campaign)
Personally I would like to live in a meritocracy. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Bad example. Bloomberg (a JHU graudate) built his wealth by creating a product that people in his old industry couldn't live without, and providing great customer service. He built it all himself.
Oops - should read entire thread before posting. carry on.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
[qb] hold up! almost ALL kids get to college? Thats the silliest thing I have heard in a while. Even if it IS more than 50% (which i am not even sure about), its certainly not almost all. [/b]
I was told it was near 80%, sorry if I am so far wrong. The smartest kids can get scholarships too, can they not?
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Originally posted by keithstg:
Bad example. Bloomberg (a JHU graudate) built his wealth by creating a product that people in his old industry couldn't live without, and providing great customer service. He built it all himself.
yeah I already admitted that...... GGW got me good already. I didnt know that he was self made.
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
[qb] hold up! almost ALL kids get to college? Thats the silliest thing I have heard in a while. Even if it IS more than 50% (which i am not even sure about), its certainly not almost all. [/b]
I was told it was near 80%, sorry if I am so far wrong. The smartest kids can get scholarships too, can they not? [/b]
Can , perhaps, but I dont know if you went to an inner city school, but they dont normally teach well enough to prepare anyone for college. But maybe those are just those 20% we can forget about!
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
So GGW, Bloomberg is a bad example then because he is self made....
But he still bought that election which is still egregious. If he was so smart and clever he wouldnt have needed to have spent so much more money than his competitor? Probably not.
Alternatively, he obviated the need for taking money from interest groups and was willing to commit his own resources to the campaign. Better to be indebted to yourself than to the interests of others.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
...one college certainly isnt the same as the next. (compare MIT to UMBC) and are we counting Comm. College and Tech Schools?
one thing that over-educated, guilt-ridden DC liberals forget is that there's nothing wrong with someone going to a community college or tech school and that such educations provide many folk with solid middle-class lifestyles...do we really need more academics? we need people who know how to DO things
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Originally posted by Celeste:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
...one college certainly isnt the same as the next. (compare MIT to UMBC) and are we counting Comm. College and Tech Schools?
one thing that over-educated, guilt-ridden DC liberals forget is that there's nothing wrong with someone going to a community college or tech school and that such educations provide many folk with solid middle-class lifestyles...do we really need more academics? we need people who know how to DO things [/b]
thanks!!! I am a tech school grad myself, but i wouldnt say "i went to college" to anyone :)
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
and what about Bovacracy...rule by cows.
i see someone watches the daily show.
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Originally posted by Celeste:
one thing that over-educated, guilt-ridden DC liberals forget is that there's nothing wrong with someone going to a community college or tech school and that such educations provide many folk with solid middle-class lifestyles...do we really need more academics? we need people who know how to DO things
why do people who live in dc have to be guilt-ridden liberals? i have no guilt, course, i have no heart either. :)
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by Celeste:
one thing that over-educated, guilt-ridden DC liberals forget is that there's nothing wrong with someone going to a community college or tech school and that such educations provide many folk with solid middle-class lifestyles...do we really need more academics? we need people who know how to DO things
why do people who live in dc have to be guilt-ridden liberals? i have no guilt, course, i have no heart either. :) [/b]
It's only the liberals who are guilt-ridden. If I recall correctly, you are not a liberal.
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
why do people who live in dc have to be guilt-ridden liberals? i have no guilt, course, i have no heart either. :)
maybe you're not over-educated...and I seem to remember you not being very liberal either ;)
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Originally posted by mankie:
"3 entries found for plutocracy.
plu·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-tkr-s)
n. pl. plu·toc·ra·cies
1. Government by the wealthy.
2. A wealthy class that controls a government.
3. A government or state in which the wealthy rule
sound familiar Minnie"
That's exactly what America is.
Oh uh! Mankie and Mark...Sorry, Andrew, have agreed with each other twice in the same day! :eek:
I think you two have been away from home for too long!
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Originally posted by mankie:
Hey, I never said the "plutocracy" was a bad thing, but with all the soft money and special interest money it is definately a government controlled by the wealthy.
Hey Mankie, since you, Rhett and I are such good mates who like to correct each others spelling..... it's definitely, not definately. Look it up!!!!!!! :)
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
[qb] hold up! almost ALL kids get to college? Thats the silliest thing I have heard in a while. Even if it IS more than 50% (which i am not even sure about), its certainly not almost all. [/b]
I was told it was near 80%, sorry if I am so far wrong. The smartest kids can get scholarships too, can they not? [/b]
not to be a jerk, but i had to look it up, because 80% was too high for me to believe!
from USAtoday from last June and according to census...granted, its the census so its not perfect, but its as good as any other source, and i dont see the fact that the people are over 25 only would make that big of a difference in the percentage....
The Census data, based on estimates from the long form sent to one in six households, showed that among people 25 and older:
21% of Americans had taken some college courses but had not earned a degree in 2000, compared with 18.7% 10 years earlier.
15.5% had earned a bachelor's degree but no higher, compared with 13.1% in 1990.
8.9% earned graduate or professional degrees, compared with 7.2% earlier.
at least we are improving!!!
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Originally posted by Yank:
Originally posted by mankie:
"3 entries found for plutocracy.
plu·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-tkr-s)
n. pl. plu·toc·ra·cies
1. Government by the wealthy.
2. A wealthy class that controls a government.
3. A government or state in which the wealthy rule
sound familiar Minnie"
That's exactly what America is.
Oh uh! Mankie and Mark...Sorry, Andrew, have agreed with each other twice in the same day! :eek:
I think you two have been away from home for too long! [/b]
I just pulled out the Webster Dictionary. It comes from the Greek ploutokratia which means 'arrogant English bastards'. No shit!!!!
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Originally posted by Yank:
Originally posted by Yank:
Originally posted by mankie:
"3 entries found for plutocracy.
plu·toc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-tkr-s)
n. pl. plu·toc·ra·cies
1. Government by the wealthy.
2. A wealthy class that controls a government.
3. A government or state in which the wealthy rule
sound familiar Minnie"
That's exactly what America is.
Oh uh! Mankie and Mark...Sorry, Andrew, have agreed with each other twice in the same day! :eek:
I think you two have been away from home for too long! [/b]
I just pulled out the Webster Dictionary. It comes from the Greek ploutokratia which means 'arrogant English bastards'. No shit!!!! [/b]
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I bet the working poor don't sit around and talk on internet chatboards all day whilst at work...
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Andrew WK:
[qb] hold up! almost ALL kids get to college? Thats the silliest thing I have heard in a while. Even if it IS more than 50% (which i am not even sure about), its certainly not almost all. [/b]
I was told it was near 80%, sorry if I am so far wrong. The smartest kids can get scholarships too, can they not? [/b]
Can , perhaps, but I dont know if you went to an inner city school, but they dont normally teach well enough to prepare anyone for college. But maybe those are just those 20% we can forget about! [/b]
You obviously have no clue as to the real reason, I'm sorry, reasons why the inner shitty schools are failing. I won't go off in this thread with some of them and I don't really feel like discussing it anymore right now.
Another point, since American society has been lowered to a service oriented society, sometime around the Reagan administration, we now have way too many college educated adults. Too many of these institutions are now nothing but paper mills generating business for their own sake while many of the degreed can't use their degrees because of the job market and the over-saturation of those with the 'right' papers. Though this does not take into account all of the highly specified jobs that will rarely allow those to cross-over their skills or credentials or won't train newer employees. Sure we have lots of degreed people but it doesn't mean what it use to mean years ago. An undergraduate degree has now replaced the high school diploma. When it comes down to it, a degree doesn't mean shit for a lot of the jobs that keep our country going. College is often over-sold and often students are misdirected as to what would be their best options for their own personal futures.
Concerning meritocracies, they sound perfect on paper and would be great if run fairly and honestly but in my last job I've witnessed some of the biggest and most unfair scams pulled on very hard working and deserving employees. One year, all of the principals were told that they were not allowed to give anyone a satisfactory or above on some evaluation. This was system wide. (Don't even ask about the fucking Union! Those corrupt bastards are tied in with the shit who made these decisions.) This was told without any concern for the abilities and qualities of anyone involved. I have no idea whether this was a scam to hold back on pay roll, a psychological game or what. I've also seen very inferior or mediocre 'friends' receive the goods while others who were much more deserving went without. There are so many games played and ways around and my last employer are masters at the game of deceit. Would be great if it worked without the shit that floats at the top.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I bet the working poor don't sit around and talk on internet chatboards all day whilst at work...
Very true...I didn't when I was waitressing and none of the folks in that book "Nickeled and Dimed" did either...
Good points on your part, too, Jag
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Originally posted by Yank:
[QB]
I just pulled out the Webster Dictionary. It comes from the Greek ploutokratia which means 'arrogant English bastards'. No shit!!!!
[QUOTE}
...are there any other kind ?
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QUOTE]You obviously have no clue as to the real reason, I'm sorry, reasons why the inner shitty schools are failing. I won't go off in this thread with some of them and I don't really feel like discussing it anymore right now.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
no clue? I have enough of one i think since i was IN ONE! and i wasnt really even saying that they were failing. My point was just that there are a wide range of schools and preparation for college. Not everyone goes to the "same school". Hell, I dont know what the hell goes on in private schools? maybe they spend all of thier time breaking up fights and talking about why so and so isnt here anymore, and maybe they have one teacher all year long instead of 4.
My point was, some of us may have gone to schools where %80 went to college, but not all of us did. Therefore it may seem to some that many many people go to college, when that may not be true.
and yeah, lets NOT talk about the reasons city schools fail, its kind of a sad story.
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Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by Yank:
[QB]
I just pulled out the Webster Dictionary. It comes from the Greek ploutokratia which means 'arrogant English bastards'. No shit!!!!
[QUOTE}
...are there any other kind ? [/b]
Nice one Mankie. ;)
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They call their teachers by their first names in private schools.
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
QUOTE]You obviously have no clue as to the real reason, I'm sorry, reasons why the inner shitty schools are failing. I won't go off in this thread with some of them and I don't really feel like discussing it anymore right now.
no clue? I have enough of one i think since i was IN ONE! and i wasnt really even saying that they were failing. My point was just that there are a wide range of schools and preparation for college. Not everyone goes to the "same school". Hell, I dont know what the hell goes on in private schools? maybe they spend all of thier time breaking up fights and talking about why so and so isnt here anymore, and maybe they have one teacher all year long instead of 4.
My point was, some of us may have gone to schools where %80 went to college, but not all of us did. Therefore it may seem to some that many many people go to college, when that may not be true.
and yeah, lets NOT talk about the reasons city schools fail, its kind of a sad story. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
They call their teachers by their first names in private schools.
wow, thats pretty interesting. i bet most public schools dont do that.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
They call their teachers by their first names in private schools.
wow, thats pretty interesting. i bet most public schools dont do that. [/b]
In what private schools do they call their teachers by their first names?
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Homeschooled children call their teachers "mom" or "dad".
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There was this one ginger kid that lived up the street from me that was homeschooled. His parents were from Vermont. He called his parents by their first names.
Originally posted by mankie:
Homeschooled children call their teachers "mom" or "dad".
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We had a police officer teach our class one year and we called him Officer Henderson.
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Originally posted by thirsty moore:
[QB]
There was this one ginger kid that lived up the street from me that was homeschooled. His parents were from Vermont. He called his parents by their first names.
When my daughter was three years old she asked me if she could call me by my first name. I said no, so she told me I must call her "daughter" from now on!
Bloody kids!
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When in the midst of searching for a job years ago, I interviewed at both the Capitol Hill Day School and Sidwell Friends (the middle school). I seem to remember both of those places having the students call the teachers by their first names.
Originally posted by ggw:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
They call their teachers by their first names in private schools.
wow, thats pretty interesting. i bet most public schools dont do that. [/b]
In what private schools do they call their teachers by their first names? [/b]
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
When in the midst of searching for a job years ago, I interviewed at both the Capitol Hill Day School and Sidwell Friends (the middle school). I seem to remember both of those places having the students call the teachers by their first names.
Originally posted by ggw:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
They call their teachers by their first names in private schools.
wow, thats pretty interesting. i bet most public schools dont do that. [/b]
In what private schools do they call their teachers by their first names? [/b]
[/b]
DC Liberalism run amok.
Back when I was in boarding school, we would have called you "Master Miller"
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Originally posted by Jaguär:
Originally posted by mankie:
Originally posted by ggw:
And waitresses -- scantily clad waitresses. Maybe in little French Maid outfits.
And get rid of the miserable bastard that works the back bar and turn it into a place were these scantily clad waitresses give lap dances. [/b]
No way! He's my favorite! And that's coming from a bartender's point of view. :) heh
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I'll be brief......
Most schools, both public and private, still call their teachers by Mr./Miss/Mrs.(Surname). A few teachers now and then will have a school-wide accepted nickname. (Of course a lot have nicknames not mentioned formally. LOL. In fact, I've come up with a few myself, and that was while I was teaching!)
Not all private schools are equal. It's a fallacy that all private schools are better than any public school. There are some good public schools and there are some horrendous private schools.
Sonic, I know those schools intimately from both sides. I know you innocently spoke (or typed) but you fell for a very common misconception as to what is so wrong with them. Not that all teachers try to or can teach. It's just like any other job. Some can do it and some can't. There is just so much else fucking up the system that most people have no clue is even going on.
Personally, I think we need more apprenticeships that train and lead to real jobs, and a little less college herding that often invests a lot of money and time but leaves the students lost and bewildered. Real training, not mass marketing training. Don't get me wrong, I love learning, I'm just disillusioned with the business of higher learning.
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Originally posted by ggw:
Back when I was in boarding school, we would have called you "Master Miller" [/QB]
thats nothing, in my school we would of had to have called him sir.
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Originally posted by ggw:
DC Liberalism run amok.
Back when I was in boarding school, we would have called you "Master Miller"
[/b]
Here's Harry fucking Potter again!
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Originally posted by Andrew WK:
Originally posted by ggw:
Back when I was in boarding school, we would have called you "Master Miller" [/b]
thats nothing, in my school we would of had to have called him sir. [/QB]
We use to get called "fucking bitch" or "fucking White bitch" all the time to our faces. Then they would laugh and say, "What you gonna do about it? Send us to the principal? S/he ain't gonna do anything!" The really sick part is that they were so right. Only the teacher would end up getting disciplined or written up, not the student. This is just one of millions of examples of how the students were passively taught by the system, not the teachers. The kind of learning they shouldn't be receiving.
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Originally posted by Jaguär:
I'll be brief......
Most schools, both public and private, still call their teachers by Mr./Miss/Mrs.(Surname). A few teachers now and then will have a school-wide accepted nickname. (Of course a lot have nicknames not mentioned formally. LOL. In fact, I've come up with a few myself, and that was while I was teaching!)
Not all private schools are equal. It's a fallacy that all private schools are better than any public school. There are some good public schools and there are some horrendous private schools.
Sonic, I know those schools intimately from both sides. I know you innocently spoke (or typed) but you fell for a very common misconception as to what is so wrong with them. Not that all teachers try to or can teach. It's just like any other job. Some can do it and some can't. There is just so much else fucking up the system that most people have no clue is even going on.
Personally, I think we need more apprenticeships that train and lead to real jobs, and a little less college herding that often invests a lot of money and time but leaves the students lost and bewildered. Real training, not mass marketing training. Don't get me wrong, I love learning, I'm just disillusioned with the business of higher learning.
jag..you are correct, and i had not meant to come across as i was blaming the teachers for anything. in fact, the school i personally went to was so bad that i dont know any teacher that could've helped some of these kids by 10th grade.
in fact, teachers may sometimes be the only good thing in a school. and by the time its high school, any teacher in a corrupt school system, trying to teach classes of 55 high school kids who havent had a motivational point in thier entire lives, is going to generally lose. and get blamed more than they should.
i definitely dont blame the teachers, in fact, i like the teachers, until they got beat up and left....
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Originally posted by Metal Meltdown:
next time I am at the club ill wear my leather pants ok???? :) heh
Sounds like a deal to me. ;)
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maybe teachers should wear leather pants (and be armed with whips), too, hell, nothing else seems to be working
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Originally posted by Jaguär:
Originally posted by Metal Meltdown:
next time I am at the club ill wear my leather pants ok???? :) heh
Sounds like a deal to me. ;) [/b]
hmm..what shows might I be at here soon..Dwight Yoakam probably...the Pistols just to say Ive seen them..
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
jag..you are correct, and i had not meant to come across as i was blaming the teachers for anything. in fact, the school i personally went to was so bad that i dont know any teacher that could've helped some of these kids by 10th grade.
in fact, teachers may sometimes be the only good thing in a school. and by the time its high school, any teacher in a corrupt school system, trying to teach classes of 55 high school kids who havent had a motivational point in thier entire lives, is going to generally lose. and get blamed more than they should.
i definitely dont blame the teachers, in fact, i like the teachers, until they got beat up and left....
Oh, yes! I myself have been physically assaulted a number of times. Once I eventually found out that I had replaced a female teacher who had been beaten up. The same year that I was in that particular school the female Gym teacher was beaten up. You know those little bastards were tough to go after the Gym teacher! Found out that a well respected (by the students!) male Science teacher had been beaten up the previous year. One day, another teacher showed me some hallway that was closed off and told me that some student had murdered some other student there. (Oh, that never made the papers or news reports. I've learned that inner shitty school violence is very often hidden and suburban violence is sometimes sensationalised. None of the elementary kids-including kindergarten!- I've had who brought knives and guns to school were ever reported in the news.)
If I wanted that kind of action, I'd have joined the police force or the military. At least they have more laws, rights and equipment to defend themselves. A teacher has even less of any of the above than your average Joe on the streets.
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Originally posted by Celeste:
maybe teachers should wear leather pants (and be armed with whips), too, hell, nothing else seems to be working
:D Then maybe I'll go back to teaching.
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My two cents...
I've been in DC for the past two years attending school and not able to go to as many shows, or get my head into as many new bands, as I would've liked. The 930 club has been there for me, though, and I've been surprised how many people showed up to what. Puffy Ami Yumi was awesome, I got to see South up real close when they opened for Cornelius, who I watched from the second floor pretty much front and center - perfect for his AV show, Starsailor somehow packing the place, and now hoping to buy some Blur tickets.
25 bucks for Blur minus their guitarist is what I'd expect. I shelled out around that to see them with Pulp way back in 98? on the Parklife tour, but in a much larger GA venue - the Palace in LA. Then I saw them at the Wiltern, that had seats, and though everyone almost stood, you could only boogie about a foot in front of you while banging your knees on the back of the seat.
I judge the money-factor after I leave the show rather than before, though I'm betting that I won't be thinking about the ticket price after Blur burns through their set list. 930 is such a snug size and great sound, we are blessed. These are the shows that make you miss other shows and save up for. Can't wait to pogo.
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Originally posted by Jaguär:
Personally, I think we need more apprenticeships that train and lead to real jobs, and a little less college herding that often invests a lot of money and time but leaves the students lost and bewildered. Real training, not mass marketing training. Don't get me wrong, I love learning, I'm just disillusioned with the business of higher learning.
i concur with that. i worked in higher education and saw both sides of things. jag is spot on.
jag, you should write a book about your experiences.