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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: sweetcell on October 01, 2008, 07:43:00 pm
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no, not the on-going sweetcell vs. julian diatribes... i'm talking about volume maximization on CDs. seems like metallica's latest is the worse offender yet.
from the WSJ: Even Heavy-Metal Fans Complain That Today's Music Is Too Loud!!! (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122228767729272339.html). But the critics have inadvertently recruited a key witness: Ted Jensen, the album's "mastering engineer," the person responsible for the sonic tweaks that translate music made in a studio into a product for mass duplication and playback by consumers. Responding to a Metallica fan's email about loudness, Mr. Jensen sent a sympathetic reply that concluded: "Believe me, I'm not proud to be associated with this one."
the accompanying graph of the soundwave is very telling (click the "Interactive Graphics" link at top of article).
lars reacts: Metallica Drummer Speaks Out On Sound Quality Controversy (http://www.kbsradio.ca/news/music/87/800384). Ulrich told Blender, "Listen, there's nothing up with the audio quality. It's 2008, and that's how we make records. Rick Rubin's whole thing is to try and get it to sound lively, to get it to sound loud, to get it to sound exciting, to get it to jump out of the speakers. Of course, I've heard that there are a few people complaining. But I've been listening to it the last couple of days in my car, and it sounds f***in'smokin.'"
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Gross.
Just when I thought Lars couldn't suck any more...
And Rick Rubin hasn't produced anything that's sounded good in decades.
On a related note, the new Deerhunter is pretty loud and ugly-sounding.
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if you want to point blame games, look down no one else's doorstep but mister joseph mascis for keeping up the standards of loudness acceptness. smoke that lars.
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Speaking of loudness, I want to bring up something about the sound system I've noticed recently at 9:30. I mentioned this re: the built to spill show but noticed it again at stereolab...either the kick drum or the tom is hitting some sort of resonant frequency with the room or the stage and creating a muffled hollow sound that detracts from anything else. Sir HC...any thoughts? Is this due to the new PA? If so, it's really annoying.
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Originally posted by walkonby:
if you want to point blame games, look down no one else's doorstep but mister joseph mascis for keeping up the standards of loudness acceptness. smoke that lars.
I have no problem with live loudness if it doesn't sacrifice the clarity of the music. Mr. Mascis and Mr. Shields can play as loud live as they want. And I don't know of any Dino Jr. albums that suffer from this problem (the one this thread is about; it has nothing to do with playing loud live) production-wise.
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Originally posted by Chip Chanko:
Speaking of loudness, I want to bring up something about the sound system I've noticed recently at 9:30. I mentioned this re: the built to spill show but noticed it again at stereolab...either the kick drum or the tom is hitting some sort of resonant frequency with the room or the stage and creating a muffled hollow sound that detracts from anything else. Sir HC...any thoughts? Is this due to the new PA? If so, it's really annoying.
I know exactly what you're talking about! I made pretty much the same comment in the Mogwai rollcall thread. The kick is definitely causing some sort of clipping sound.
And yes, it is very annoying. Other than that however, the PA sounds great.
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I'm more intrigued with Rick Rubin being 'WSJ-fied'.
It looks like he's a missing Mt. Rushmore face.
<img src="http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-CK157_Rubin__NS_20080924233308.jpg" alt=" - " />
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For those inclined, the best way to hear Death Magnetic is to download the Guitar Hero version. The levels aren't as high, and the separation between instruments is better.
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That interactive graphic wasnt that bad. Drum and bass and other types of dance music can hit at that level. If you compare anything from the 70's and 80's to almost anything today, the waveform is going to be a lot bigger. The only problem i can see is the bass. Looks like it needs a bit of a cut. It looks like the track was hard limited to give it that boost, which turns everything up and cuts a bit off the top. Not the way i would have done it, but isnt metal supposed to be loud? Not that it matters, who listens to Metallica anyway.
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New PA in the club from around Memorial Day. Sounds much better, flatter, the resonant notes are from several things, one poorly tuned toms, still tuning in the new system, and people getting used to the new sounds in new parts of the room. I have to admit, I was there for the stereolab show and cringed when he hit those toms, they just had a crappy sound, but then I saw Dandys, Delerium and Rocket Summer and didn't hear the same toms issues.
With this new system, there are lows hitting all the way up to the VIP bar, something new to deal with. I think that the engineers coming through will have to get used to the new system and as it gets dialed in it is going to be even more amazing. The old system had been tweaked and the house eq tweaked over the last 11 years to get a good sound from it, but this new system came in and immediately got some great sounds, no more comb filter sounds as you walk around, but it will take some time to work out what resonates where (for Delerium I was up by VIP bar and was about 12 feet from the back wall and the 25 Hz standing wave there was drastic and something you really can't get rid of). Step a few feet back, no excessive lows.
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The thread on the Electrical Audio (Steve Albini's recording studio) board about this topic is a funny read.
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There's a good article about the engineering techniques here:
http://www.eqmag.com/article/brickwall-limiting/Feb-07/25512 (http://www.eqmag.com/article/brickwall-limiting/Feb-07/25512)
If you want it loud turn up the volume and if it's still not loud enough buy a better stereo, for heavens sake don't sacrifice my dynamic range!!!
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Analysis: Metallica's Death Magnetic Sounds Better in Guitar Hero (http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/09/does-metallicas.html) (with waveform graph comparison)
this ProRec article is a classic in explaining the loudness wars: Over the Limit (http://www.prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/247/Over-the-Limit.aspx).
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"Alex Vanderlay
unregistered"
Holy shit we have a haunted board!
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not to hijack this thread - but perhaps this would be a good place to ask about it. Does anybody here know some good, cost-effective techniques to soundproof a room? I'm looking to convert part of my garage into a studio/practice space, but I need to ensure that I'm not bothering the neighbors as I live in the heart of the city. For the most part, the room is pretty quiet from the exterior - but I have at least one wall that is allowing substantial amounts of sound out. The wall is old brick, with a window and door; any tips?
Thanks!
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Originally posted by callat703:
not to hijack this thread - but perhaps this would be a good place to ask about it. Does anybody here know some good, cost-effective techniques to soundproof a room? I'm looking to convert part of my garage into a studio/practice space, but I need to ensure that I'm not bothering the neighbors as I live in the heart of the city. For the most part, the room is pretty quiet from the exterior - but I have at least one wall that is allowing substantial amounts of sound out. The wall is old brick, with a window and door; any tips?
Thanks!
Often used are heavy hung carpets, that eggcrate like foam, and just insulation. In general layers that are thick help. What frequencies, low or high are getting out as they are best handled different ways.
Or get a bunch of old AmVets mattresses and line them up against the wall, stains to the wall.
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The back wall is pretty much leaking the full range of frequency - it just isn't an effective block to the sound as it is just one layer of brick. Any suggestions on where to find those kinds of materials around DC? Mattresses are a great idea; any other tips?
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only weight stops sound from leaking. egg crates are useful for breaking up reflection, but don't do much to stop leaking. heavy carpets (as many layers as you can get up there) and heavy mattresses are the way to go. don't bother with regular spring mattresses, they won't do much :)
Originally posted by Sir HC:
With this new system, there are lows hitting all the way up to the VIP bar, something new to deal with.
huh, funny you should mention both stereolab and the lack of bass upstairs in the past. when i last saw them two (?) years ago, i was upstairs and the lack of bass ruined the show for me.
more reading: The Death of High Fidelity (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17777619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print). lots of links at the end to even more reading.
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The Loudness Wars: Why Music Sounds Worse (NPR article & show segment stream)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122114058
the article references the first youtube vid that smakawhat posted:
Or is this just a way for me to subject you to McCartney...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
discuss..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQyPF3TwNT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEFyNdB13vg&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTBoMlsw-0I&feature=related
the ever present DM Metallica debate...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I&feature=related
the most convincing argument winner gets a biscuit...
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The Loudness Wars: Why Music Sounds Worse (NPR article & show segment stream)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122114058
From the article linked above:
Dr. Andrew Oxenham is a professor in the psychology department at the University of Minnesota. His specialty is auditory perception ? how our brains and ears interact. He also started out as a recording engineer.
Robert Siegel asked him to explain digital compression.
"Really, the challenge is to maintain the quality of a CD, but to stuff it into a much smaller space," Oxenham says. "Let's think about how digital recording works. You start out with a very smooth sound wave and we're trying to store that in digital form. So we're really trying to reproduce a smooth curve [with] these square blocks, which are the digital numbers [the 1s and 0s that are used to encode sound digitally].
"Now, the only way you can make square blocks look like a smooth curve is by using very, very small blocks so it ends up looking as if it's smooth. Now using lots and lots of blocks means lots of storage, so we end up using [fewer] bigger blocks. Which means we end up not representing that curve very smoothly at all."
Lost? Go back and re-read it ? you'll get it.
That is the worst description of digital audio I've ever read.