930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: HoyaSaxa03 on February 19, 2007, 01:38:00 pm
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Regulation at D.C. Clubs a Sobering Failure (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR2007021701332.html)
By Marc Fisher
Sunday, February 18, 2007; C01
Washington's unusual practice of allowing music fans of all ages to join the fun at nightclubs that serve alcohol is one of this city's distinctive assets, an attraction that's known all over the world and cherished in the annals of punk history.
Washington's lax policy of letting unsupervised adolescents mix with drunk night crawlers lends itself to underage drinking and occasional tragedy, such as last month's shooting death of a 17-year-old girl.
If those contrasting realities aren't confusing enough, try a third:
The District has two distinctly different underage scenes -- one centered on rock clubs that attract a primarily suburban crowd of white kids, sometimes accompanied by their parents and generally well-supervised by club managers and security personnel, and the other focused on go-gos that attract an inner-city audience of black kids, with almost no parents on hand and a checkered record of effective supervision.
Now, you're a politician trying to figure out how to regulate all-ages clubs. But the code of conversation about race forbids you from acknowledging publicly that the same easygoing regulations play out very differently in these two separate night cultures.
If you talk about scrapping the all-ages policy, you get big-time blowback from owners of clubs such as the Black Cat and the 9:30 Club, from the music lovers who frequent those spots and even from many parents.
If you talk about keeping the all-ages policy but cracking down hard on any clubs where violence or underage drinking incidents occur regularly, you hear it from owners of go-go clubs and from people who've grown up loving that uniquely Washingtonian experience, a communal gathering that at its best transcends the neighborhood turf battles that senselessly divide so many young people.
"Closing a club here or there is just a Band-Aid," says Charles Stephenson, co-author of "The Beat," a book about the District's go-go scene, and a longtime aide to former congressman Ron Dellums. "As long as we keep dealing with this one club at a time, we're going to continue to go to Johnson & Johnson's to buy a lot of Band-Aids. The venue is not the issue; it's the larger problem of violence in the black community."
Stephenson argues that politicians should focus not on isolated incidents outside some club's front door but on developing alternatives to the street corner for teens. He points to New Roc City in New Rochelle, N.Y. -- an entertainment complex with a skating rink, bowling alley, movie complex, go-kart track and games arcade, and a police substation prominently placed at the entrance -- as the kind of development that provides a safe environment for people not old enough to drink.
"Let's do some creative things to show young people that we really love them and want them to learn and to have a good time," Stephenson says. "All they hear is that go-gos are bad and their schools are bad and whatever they're interested in is bad and they are bad. The kids who go to the Black Cat get very different messages. They hear that the 9:30 is a nice place to go to, the schools in Fairfax are excellent, and all those messages are internalized."
D.C. Council member Jim Graham, who has become the central figure in this debate because some of the most prominent venues are in his Ward 1, initially was so outraged by the shooting death of Taleshia Ford outside the Smarta/Broadway club on Ninth Street NW that he thought about trying to end the all-ages policy. But he's come to agree with those who say the problem is not the existence of the clubs but the security provided by club owners.
So Graham is seeking a Solomonic solution that uses tougher a licensing regimen to make club owners keep underage customers away from the alcohol and provide a safe environment for all ages. "I'm no longer willing to react to every single case as tragedies occur," he says. "I want to fix this."
The Smarta club stayed open even after 34 calls to police about assaults or disorderly conduct in little more than two years, police records show. D.C. police saw drunk teens leaving the club, smelled marijuana and observed that no ID checks were being performed. The existing regs just aren't working.
In a society riddled with contradictions over underage drinking, the all-ages policy both adds to the confusion and provides a good outlet for kids.
"Making music available to young people is part of the reason I do the club," says Dante Ferrando, owner of the Black Cat, on 14th Street NW. "This is not the greatest business in the world; you don't make that much money off live music. To try to do it without the 20-and-under crowd would be devastating. And for better or worse, the alcohol is what subsidizes concerts. Without selling drinks, you couldn't afford to have good security."
The real issue here, Ferrando says, is making club owners take responsibility for creating a safe place.
"You have to have experience to know which bands draw a bad crowd and which draw a good crowd," he says. "Some hip-hop draws an intellectual, inner-city crowd that's into the poetry of the music and isn't going to bring any trouble, and other hip-hop shows draw a younger, suburban crowd that brings fights and graffiti. I try not to have those groups back.
"The thing is to manage the club properly. If a manager isn't doing that, use the regulations on the books to make the club take the law seriously. Because where else are kids going to learn music? It's already been taken out of the schools. Don't take music out of the lives of young people and put them onto street corners."
E-mail:marcfisher@washpost.com
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No, the real issue is: It's an African American problem only, and not that socialist flapdoodle you posted. Are you this dumb in real life?
A što vi bijete crnce?
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<img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/team_dupek/ea072f7f.jpg" alt=" - " />
Please to be coming (http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Bombay) on baby, lighting my fire
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give it up for suburban white rocker kids!!!!
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This debate is based on a false premise. The issue is guns at clubs, not minors at clubs. If the victim were 22 would her being shot be ok? What did age have to do with the problem? Should certain "at risk" clubs (based on factors such as a history of violence) be forced to comply w/ restrictions to prevent guns from entering the club? Sure, why not. What does this have to do with minors going to see live music in clubs with liquor licenses. Absolutely nothing.
If minors were getting drunk at clubs and getting into car accidents on their way home, this debate would make sense.
I think the DC Council figured this out during the hearings. If not it would be absolutely infuriating.
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to the last poster, there weren't guns IN the club, the guy who came back to the club had a gun on him and wasnt even trying to get intio the club, he just went to pick a fight with the bouncer.
whatevz, im glad this failed. i read this article in the post on sunday, pwned.
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give it up for suburban white rocker kids!!!!
get your head out of your ass!
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African American problem only
As usual, always kick the black man. It can happen to any race.
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"As usual, always kick the black man. It can happen to any race"
А вие защо биете негрите?
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If minors were getting drunk at clubs and getting into car accidents on their way home, this debate would make sense.
You'd think, but then a club like LOVE (formerly Dream) wouldn't be still open after an underager drove completely wasted onto the BW Parkway and killed a MD State Trooper.
DC and their "laws" in place. Money talks.
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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^^^^Real talk^^^^^^
Furthermore, what's with this Bombay cat and all these racist undertone comments???? Am I simply missing your sense of humor or are you here to get your "Grand Wizard" on????
A što vi bijete crnce?
Oh, I'm sorry. Cause a subliminal Russian/Croatian quote about lynching negroes is fuckin' hilarious. Maybe I'm just uptight as hell . . . .
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Obviously your brains are too small to understand the meaning of the quote. Subliminal? It's not about race at all, you moron.
BTW, are you a Boy Who Cried Wolf or a Chicken Little?
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"Don't go to parties with metal detectors
Sure it feels safe inside; but what about
all those niggaz waitin outside with guns?
They know you ain't got one.." - Chris Rock.
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^^^^^If you see a girl with a tongue ring, she'll probably suck your dick, (Gerald Levert in the background: I like that yeah)
If you see a guy with a tongue ring, he'll probably suck your dick (Gerald Levert: I don't want that, naw . . . . )
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I know more white people who walk into clubs like DC9 with guns, knives and those knucklethings than do black folks.
but bombay doesn't know anyone like this, nor does he go out really. Bc the negroes oogle his wife and try to touch her bottom. this makes him mad and he starts looking clever shit up on the web. the strength of his vengance is befuckinyond awesome, almost immesurable. you better not be black, dog. bombay chutney meatflaps can chant you down to the earth's core with a retort and a call-out on ytmnd.com. whoa. look out.
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Yet another ad hominem attacker. Can't you think up something more clever than this?
BTW...you said negroes, when the correct term is 'colored'.
<small>[ 02-20-2007, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: The Bombay Doors ]</small>
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a-a-a-d
a-a-a-ad hom-in -n-n
aw forget it
*snooooooooooooooore
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Go ahead, let the hate flow.
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The District has two distinctly different underage scenes -- one centered on rock clubs that attract a primarily suburban crowd of white kids, sometimes accompanied by their parents and generally well-supervised by club managers and security personnel, and the other focused on go-gos that attract an inner-city audience of black kids, with almost no parents on hand and a checkered record of effective supervision.
Hoya, why are 75% of your posts race -related?
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i like to hide a saturday night special in my scarf when i go out. pumas hide extra bullets well
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dear Dudek Chakra/Bombay Doors/dupek:
could you please explain where you're coming from, with your racist banter? maybe if we knew you, we'd "get" your comments. but without that interpersonal context, you come across as a racist bigot. i'm not saying you are one, just that it's the way you sound. how are we supposed to interpret comments to the effect of beating and lynching negros? (yes, i can read russian). are these jokes? are they ment to highlight how retarded racism is? if so, you're not couching it that way. you come across bitter and hate-obsessed... and i don't want to believe that's who you are. please tell me otherwise!
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Originally posted by The Bombay Doors:
Obviously your brains are too small to understand the meaning of the quote. Subliminal? It's not about race at all, you moron.
great! so please educate us, oh big-brained non-racist one.
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A što vi bijete crnce?
Oh, I'm sorry. Cause a subliminal Russian/Croatian quote about lynching negroes is fuckin' hilarious. Maybe I'm just uptight as hell . . . .
You need alot of mental help....nothing about lynching is hilarious.
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dear Dudek Chakra/Bombay Doors/dupek:
could you please explain where you're coming from, with your racist banter? maybe if we knew you, we'd "get" your comments. but without that interpersonal context, you come across as a racist bigot. i'm not saying you are one, just that it's the way you sound. how are we supposed to interpret comments to the effect of beating and lynching negros? (yes, i can read russian). are these jokes? are they ment to highlight how retarded racism is? if so, you're not couching it that way. you come across bitter and hate-obsessed... and i don't want to believe that's who you are. please tell me otherwise!
This is the first intellectual post you have ever made! Congrats!
<small>[ 02-21-2007, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: bull930 ]</small>
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Google quote...I'm feeling lucky.
And quit calling me a racist. Are you the boy who cried wolf? You can Google that too, if you are unfamiliar with the genius called Aesop.
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nobody wants to be nice to each other, unless they download the love into an ipod.
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this thread should be deleted like the other one.
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Dupek, I know you can't give up your white priviledge but I don't think you are entitled to bring other people down by letting us read your race-related rants.
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he's not racist. he's just a cheeky monkey who likes riding that line. he don't play it safe, man. he's for real.
Actually when I take the small amount of time that this crap deserves to think it all through, I find his shit to be heroic actually, sort of like the Lenny Bruce of our week ... I mean ... time. he speaks for the speakless and suffers for the sufferin suckotash. he's the man now and forever, dog.
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I thought this article had valid points--and it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I hate the walk from the Metro (I'm a female in my early 20's) and I won't go alone, but once inside the club I've always felt relatively safe. Perhaps this is naive... They don't have metal detectors; they don't search your purse/bag; and they don't scan your ID so they don't even know who's there.
On the other hand, I have to admit that in the few incidents I've witnessed, their security team handled it right away. I think that as far as clubs go, 9:30 is definitely among the safest--but, unfortunately, that may not being saying much.
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Originally posted by joey joe:
Dupek, I know you can't give up your white priviledge
Well, first of all...I should note that you have difficulty spelling a 6th grade word like 'privilege'. To me this bespeaks of your intelligence, or rather the lack of. White Privilege? That's a far left buzzword. It's really doublespeak for 'Black Disadvantage'.
Bill Cosby would say the black community needs to shed the victim tag and start to take on more responsibility for what it currently blames on The Man.
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You are acting like a troll.
Why are you trying to engage in a conversation in such indirect ways (posting in Russian, picking on grammar, calling people names)? I think the only way to read your posts is that you are trying to provoke the type of responses that you have been receiving, which, in turn, allow you to claim that you are a victim.
Your viewpoint is legitimate; all you need to do is state it. If you do so, people will be able to respond (or not respond) accordingly.
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Well, first of all...I should note that you have difficulty spelling a 6th grade word like 'privilege'. To me this bespeaks of your intelligence, or rather the lack of. White Privilege? That's a far left buzzword. It's really doublespeak for 'Black Disadvantage'.
Bill Cosby would say the black community needs to shed the victim tag and start to take on more responsibility for what it currently blames on The Man.
people misspell shit all the time. let it go.
you're totally right about the Cosby/victim tag point. I think there's been plenty of bootstrapping done by black folks for generations and generations. that said, look at the Katrina coverage. white people find, black people loot. all jokes aside, how do you answer to that?
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wikipedia will give you a definition of 'white privilege'.
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see, i'm not buying the lenny bruce angle (AKA "holding up a mirror"). it's too easy to hide behind, and dupek has done nothing to set it up - or, more importantly, follow it up (the "A-HA! GOTCHA!" that comes after the wool has been pulled over the crowd).
dupek's defense (usually = offense) has, thus far, consisted of:
- insulting the intelligence of his accuser (stooping so low as to critique spelling... way to stick to the ideas)
- changing the topic
- posting in another language
- hiding behind other people's quotes
- adding more offense (RE: "BTW...you said negroes, when the correct term is 'colored'")
that's kinda weak for someone who has a point (at least i think you do, if only you'd clarify). instead of hiding and deflecting, why not let us know what's on your mind? i'm happy to dissagree with your ideas, but i can't respect your dishonesty. i'll be most pleased to stop calling you a racist, per your request, as soon as you stop playing the racist card without context.
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Originally posted by allmy$to930:
You are acting like a troll.
Why are you trying to engage in a conversation in such indirect ways (posting in Russian, picking on grammar, calling people names)? I think the only way to read your posts is that you are trying to provoke the type of responses that you have been receiving, which, in turn, allow you to claim that you are a victim.
Your viewpoint is legitimate; all you need to do is state it. If you do so, people will be able to respond (or not respond) accordingly.
agreed. you start shit and then cry about people not getting it.
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Originally posted by sweetcell:
- insulting the intelligence of his accuser (stooping so low as to critique spelling...
adding more offense (RE: "BTW...you said negroes, when the correct term is 'colored'
Stooping low??? If you want to be understood, you should learn to spell. Very basic stuff.
NAACP = National Association of COLORED People
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dupek isn't racist, he's just a troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll), nothing more nothing less
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Taking a contrary stance is trolling? BTW, why do you get most of your facts from wikipedia?
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Do we really have time to educate anyone regarding the use of colored?
"Its name (NAACP), retained in accord with tradition, is one of the last surviving uses of the term "colored people". This is now generally viewed as dated and derogatory. In the historical context of the NAACP, however, the term is not considered offensive."
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Did you get that from Wikipedia, too? Did you know the CIA was once called the OSS? Should we still refer to it as such?
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Taking a contrary stance is trolling?
Please answer these two questions directly.
1) What is your stance?
2) Why have you resorted to using such bizarre methods in this thread?
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is this better (http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp), dupek?
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wikipedia is so good it makes an internet troll's blood boil.
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you're right, dupek, this is a much better description of trolling than wikipedia has:
http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp (http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp)
# An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.
A classic CureZone troll is trying to make us believe that he is a skeptic. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. Troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.
While he tries to present himself as a skeptic looking for truth ... his messages usually sound as if it is the responsibility of other forum members to provide evidence that what forum is all about is legitimate science.
I will give you few examples of classic troll messages & discussion threads:
* Example 1
* Example 2
* Example 3
He (and in 90% of cases it is he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
Sometimes, he is skeptical, trying to scare people, trying to plant fear in their hearts. Many curezone trolls are people trying to promote Quackwatch / ratbags agenda.
Sometimes, Internet troll is trying to spin conflicting information, is questioning in an insincere manner, flaming discussion, insulting people, turning people against each other, harassing forum members, ignoring warnings from forum moderators.
Trolling is a form of harassment that can take over a discussion. Well meaning defenders can create chaos by responding to trolls. The best response is to ignore it, or to report a message to a forum moderator. CureZone moderators usually delete troll messages or block trolls. Negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison previously friendly interactions between long-time users.
Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.
When trolls are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post ever more of them. Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free speech is being curtailed. Perhaps the most difficult challenge for a webmaster is deciding whether to take steps against a troll that a few people find entertaining. Some trolls do have a creative spark and have chosen to squander it on being disruptive. There is a certain perverse pleasure in watching some of them. Ultimately, though, the webmaster has to decide if the troll actually cares about putting on a good show for the regular participants, or is simply playing to an audience of one -- himself.
Next time you are on a message board and you see a post by somebody whom you think is a troll, and you feel you must reply, simply write a follow-up message entitled "Troll Alert" and type only this:
The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction and not to respond to rolling messages. It is well known that most people don't read messages that nobody responds to, while 99% of forum visitors first read the longest and the largest threads with the most answers.
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Originally posted by HoyaSaxa08:
The venue is not the issue; it's the larger problem of violence in the black community.
I agree. Originally posted by HoyaSaxa08:
[A] police substation prominently placed at the entrance
Why do they need a police substation?
I replied to the post in a coherent matter. I disagreed with other users opinions. I gave examples to back up my argument, while other users hurled slurs at me. Therefore I am a troll. You've got me pegged there, sport.
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It looks like you had to use the edit function to correct your spelling of "pegged", chief.
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Now you are trying to defame my character. Does anyone have any evidence to back up their specious arguments?
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Originally posted by Dudek:
Well, first of all...I should note that you have difficulty spelling a 6th grade word like 'privilege'.
Yes, hypocrisy is a character flaw that is fun to point out.
This is my last post in this thread. Thanks for banter.