930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: on February 22, 2007, 12:24:00 pm
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More Americans killed by illegal aliens than Iraq war, study says (http://www.gopusa.com/news/2007/february/0222_illegals_report.shtml)
Illegal aliens are killing more Americans than the Iraq war, says a new report from Family Security Matters that estimates some 2,158 murders are committed every year by illegal aliens in the U.S. The group says that number is more than 15 percent of all the murders reported by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the U.S. and about three times the representation of illegal aliens in the general population.
Mike Cutler, a former senior special agent with the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (the former INS), is a fellow at the Center for Immigration Studies and an advisor to Family Security Matters (FSM). He says the high number of Americans being killed by illegal aliens is just part of the collateral damage that comes with tolerating illegal immigration.
"The military actually called for the BORTAC team, ... the elite unit of the Border Patrol, to be detailed to Iraq to help to secure the Iraqi border," Cutler notes. "Now, if our military can understand that Iraq's security depends in measure on the ability to protect its border against insurgents and terrorists, then why isn't our country similarly protecting our own borders?" he asks.
"We are not five and a half years, nearly, after 9/11, and yet our borders remain open," the Center for Immigration Studies fellow observes. "We have National Guardsmen assigned on the border, but it turns out they are unarmed," he points out. "Their rules of engagement are very simple: if armed intruders head your way, run in the other direction."
This situation would "almost be comical if it wasn't so tragic," Cutler asserts. "If our borders are wide open, this means that drugs, criminals, and terrorists are entering our country just as easily as the dishwashers," he says.
The report from FSM estimates that the 267,000 illegal aliens currently incarcerated in the nation are responsible for nearly 1,300,000 crimes, ranging from drug arrests to rape and murder. Such statistics, Cutler contends, debunk the claim that illegal immigration is a victimless crime. "Then we even have another problem," he adds, "and that's the Visa Waiver Program."
The federal government's Visa Waiver Program enables nationals of certain countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa. According to the U.S. State Department website, the waiver program was established in 1986 with the objective of "eliminating unnecessary barriers to travel," stimulating America's tourism industry, and allowing the government to focus consular resources in other areas.
Cutler says the U.S. retains the Visa Waiver Program because the nation's travel, tourism, and hospitality industries want America's borders wide open. In other words, the former INS official contends, the nation's security is being compromised in the name of trade.
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and they say there is a LEFT-wing bias in the media... oh, wait, the URL explains it all.
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Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape
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long live facts!
an equally unbiased, scientific version of the truth available here (http://www.laldef.org/html/laldef_FactsMythsEnglish.htm). thank goodness someone eventually got it right.
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Originally posted by sweetcell:
and they say there is a LEFT-wing bias in the media... oh, wait, the URL explains it all.
An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or he is wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by him rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself.
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Originally posted by sweetcell:
long live facts!
an equally unbiased, scientific version of the truth available here (http://www.laldef.org/html/laldef_FactsMythsEnglish.htm). thank goodness someone eventually got it right.
I don't see any numbers or statistics on rates of immigrant crime v. Iraqi war KIAs in your link? Argumentum ad Invidiam.
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Hmmm....
~16,000 murders in the US every year.
50.0 percent are committed by blacks
47.6 percent are committed by whites
2.4 percent were committed by other races
90% of all illegal aliens in the US are from Latin America, a group that apparently only kills a portion of 2.4% of all murders in the US.
FBI Crime Stats (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html)
And this study claims that 13% are committed by illegal aliens?
Something doesn't add up my friend.
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Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Hmmm....
~16,000 murders in the US every year.
50.0 percent are committed by blacks
47.6 percent are committed by whites
2.4 percent were committed by other races
90% of all illegal aliens in the US are from Latin America, a group that apparently only kills a portion of 2.4% of all murders in the US.
FBI Crime Stats (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html)
And this study claims that 13% are committed by illegal aliens?
Something doesn't add up my friend.
That's 3 years old.
Btw, arguing with vansmack is more fun.
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When I first read this thread title, I though you were talking about aliens from outter space.
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i'm curious as to what percentage of those "americans" killed are other illegal aliens?
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I tried to get more info from that FAMILY MATTERS site, but got nothing. I guess that's a bad sign. Still, until I see the 2006 FBI uniform crime stats..?
Don't ever quote those missing black on white rape stats, because those have since been removed by the FBI because of political inconvenience.
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Take that (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52198), vansmack!
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Originally posted by kosmo:
i'm curious as to what percentage of those "americans" killed are other illegal aliens?
I'm glad you axed.
"illegal aliens are often silent on family violence and afraid to report crime within their communities"
source (http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=464611)
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Originally posted by vansmack:
FBI Crime Stats (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html)
And this study claims that 13% are committed by illegal aliens?
Something doesn't add up my friend.
That something is that the study doesn't specify murders for a one year period, but all illegal alien murders total. One year of FBI stats is meaningless. Argumentum ad Ignorantiam.
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Originally posted by Dudek Chakra:
]That's 3 years old.
If they're using any actual numbers at all, I'd be shocked if they were from 2006. There is a small possiblilty that they're using 2005 crime numbers, but I doubt that as well.
Even if they are using 2006 numbers, it would seem that the proposed increase from 2000-2004 numbers seems quite high to be believable.
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Table 2.3
Murder Victims
by Race and Sex, 2004
Sex
Race Total Male Female Unknown
White 6,929 5,031 1,896 2
Black 6,632 5,562 1,067 3
Other 365 269 95 1
Unknown 195 128 41 26
Total 14,121 10,990 3,099 32
Acorrding to the FBI numbers, hispanics, whether legal or not, don't commit ANY murder!
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Something doesn't add up my friend.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Hmmm....
~16,000 murders in the US every year.
50.0 percent are committed by blacks
47.6 percent are committed by whites
2.4 percent were committed by other races
90% of all illegal aliens in the US are from Latin America, a group that apparently only kills a portion of 2.4% of all murders in the US.
FBI Crime Stats (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html)
And this study claims that 13% are committed by illegal aliens?
Something doesn't add up my friend.
Table 2.3
Murder Victims
by Race and Sex, 2004
Sex
Race Total Male Female Unknown
White 6,929 5,031 1,896 2
Black 6,632 5,562 1,067 3
Other 365 269 95 1
Unknown 195 128 41 26
Total 14,121 10,990 3,099 32
Acorrding to the FBI numbers you provided vansmack, hispanics, whether legal or not, don't seem to commit ANY murders at all!
Something doesn't add up my friend.
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I wanted this all in one poast, but some genius trimmed the edit feature...go figure!?!
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Illegal aliens? Time to call Fox Mulder!!
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There is nothing sound about this article but ya know ya could use this article as a way to instill fear in the minds of Americans who are still unsure about illegal immigration.
An intelligent person wouldn't trust an "organization" like Family Security Matters.
Do ya know that they comprise of FIVE right-wing moms??!
(you should also know that their office is on L Street...)
yawn
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I used to be an illegal alien...then I became a legal alien, now I'm just a boring old 'murrkan'
It was more fun being an illegal alien, I felt all extra-terrestrial and stuff.
I have to say though, I didn't feel like killing anyone more as an illegal than I do as a doodle.
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How many murders do hispanics commit per year? If the FBI doesn't know, then who does?
</font>- <font size="2" face="Arial, Veranda">White 6,929</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Arial, Veranda">Black 6,632</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Arial, Veranda">Other 365</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Arial, Veranda">Unknown 195</font></li>
<font size="2" face="Arial, Veranda"> Source: FBI
But I'd bet hispanics commit more than the 550 combined nationwide total for other/unknown.
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Originally posted by joey joe:
There is nothing sound about this article but ya know ya could use this article as a way to instill fear in the minds of Americans who are still unsure about illegal immigration.
An intelligent person wouldn't trust an "organization" like Family Security Matters.
Do ya know that they comprise of FIVE right-wing moms??!
(you should also know that their office is on L Street...)
yawn
Joey, I deal in numbers and facts. You deal in ad hominem arguments. Please go away.
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<img src="http://www.bold-claim.com/includes/uploadedimages/040123_223905-1232_who-fuckin-cares.jpg" alt=" - " />
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the truth hurts you have to resort to distored truths and numbers :)
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i think more people fuck wit illegal alliens then iraqs'. (howeva u spell dat shyt)
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Originally posted by joey joe:
the truth hurts you have to resort to distored truths and numbers :)
look, if your sole purpose for disparaging the report is because you think the organization putting out the source is wrong, no matter what the report says, that's ad hominen (attacking the source as being untrustworthy, instead of attacking the report). a much more constructive criticism of the report would be to read it, provide "facts" and "numbers" of your own to dispute it.
just because you disagree with the source does not mean they are "wrong," and because you agree with another source does not means they're "right."
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Simple-minded loaded headlines RULE.
Yes, the facts are there; however this is a pure, loaded propaganda piece.
By this logic, why don't they put one out that says "Six Times More Americans Killed by Americans Than Iraq War" or "Three Times More Americans Killed by Blacks/Whites Than Iraq War?"
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Because there are a lot more white and black Americans relative to the number of illegal aliens, thus the headline wouldn't be nearly as revelatory?
Originally posted by Alex:
Simple-minded loaded headlines RULE.
Yes, the facts are there; however this is a pure, loaded propaganda piece.
By this logic, why don't they put one out that says "Six Times More Americans Killed by Americans Than Iraq War" or "Three Times More Americans Killed by Blacks/Whites Than Iraq War?"
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â?¢ In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
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The unspeakable human costs aside...
Could we also factor in the number of people who died from lack of health care coverage? How about those that died in urban centers that aren't getting government renewal funds? How about those that will die because they are receiving a substandard education and will resort to violence to sustain themselves in the future? How about seniors who die because they can't afford prescription drugs? Or how about those who may die in future terrorist attacks because we've failed to secure our ports and enact effective security measures at airports? Shouldn't your point also address that the money spent in Iraq could have been spent securing borders to ensure that fewer illegal aliens pass into this country?
...or any of the other possible scenarios where the billions upon billions of dollars spent in Iraq could have been better spent in the United States...
To simplify this argument down to a simple comparison between "killed by illegal aliens" and "killed by the Iraq war" is reductionist and stupid. It doesn't prove or really say anything, and simply serves to incite arguments.
Try THINKING about the issues - and their complexities - before taking a stance.
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I think this thread talks more about the stupidity of war than the ethnicity of assassinations...
but then again, I guess that I really dont know...
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I guess the bottom line is that we should draft illegal aliens and send them to fight the war in Iraq, since they are so succcessful at killing?
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Dupek: You haven't posted this yet. It seems to be right up your alley (flawed statistics, political agendas, and pathetic organizations).
Let's move to Iraq!
http://www.gunowners.org/op0622.htm (http://www.gunowners.org/op0622.htm)
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Originally posted by callat703:
The unspeakable human costs aside...
Could we also factor in the number of people who died from lack of health care coverage? How about those that died in urban centers that aren't getting government renewal funds? How about those that will die because they are receiving a substandard education and will resort to violence to sustain themselves in the future? How about seniors who die because they can't afford prescription drugs? Or how about those who may die in future terrorist attacks because we've failed to secure our ports and enact effective security measures at airports? Shouldn't your point also address that the money spent in Iraq could have been spent securing borders to ensure that fewer illegal aliens pass into this country?
...or any of the other possible scenarios where the billions upon billions of dollars spent in Iraq could have been better spent in the United States...
To simplify this argument down to a simple comparison between "killed by illegal aliens" and "killed by the Iraq war" is reductionist and stupid. It doesn't prove or really say anything, and simply serves to incite arguments.
Try THINKING about the issues - and their complexities - before taking a stance.
Argumentum ad Logicam. Argumentum ad Hominem. Go start your own topic.
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What month is illegal alien history month, and what channel is IAET? (and don't say sci-fi coz I already thought of it)
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Originally posted by allmy$to930:
Dupek: You haven't posted this yet. It seems to be right up your alley (flawed statistics, political agendas, and pathetic organizations).
Let's move to Iraq!
http://www.gunowners.org/op0622.htm (http://www.gunowners.org/op0622.htm)
Changing the subject because one's Kung-Fu is weak, are we?
Bede says it best:
look, if your sole purpose for disparaging the report is because you think the organization putting out the source is wrong, no matter what the report says, that's ad hominen (attacking the source as being untrustworthy, instead of attacking the report). a much more constructive criticism of the report would be to read it, provide "facts" and "numbers" of your own to dispute it.
just because you disagree with the source does not mean they are "wrong," and because you agree with another source does not means they're "right."
<img src="http://marknicodemo.mu.nu/archives/duh_Garfield.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
â?¢ In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.
Which is out of how many hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens in Los Angeles? Of course there is going to be a high number, considering they are either undocumented or have documentation that is out of date, making them harder to find.
How about we talk about why and how illegal aliens continue to come through our borders, rather than post baiting statistics that tend to have racial undertones, whether done purposely or not.
Oh wait, that would be "Argumentum ad Logicam," correct?
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Depek replied: Changing the subject because one's Kung-Fu is weak, are we?
Bede says it best:
look, if your sole purpose for disparaging the report is because you think the organization putting out the source is wrong, no matter what the report says, that's ad hominen (attacking the source as being untrustworthy, instead of attacking the report). a much more constructive criticism of the report would be to read it, provide "facts" and "numbers" of your own to dispute it.
just because you disagree with the source does not mean they are "wrong," and because you agree with another source does not means they're "right."
I am not just dismissing it because of the group that published it. Actually, if you read my post, you will see that I claim you have the "trifecta" of flawed statistics, political agendas, and patethic organizations. I posted the link, not to display my kung fu skills, but because it has so many parallels to your original "study" that it fits right in this thread.
Would you deny that that the two studies are similar in their conclusions, methods, and/or agendas?
If something looks like shit, and smells like shit...chances are it is shit. The study you posted is most definately shit.
Finally, can you please retire the phrases "chicken little", "ad hominem", and "the boy who cried wolf"? They are not clever or adding to your posts.
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Originally posted by allmy$to930:
Finally, can you please retire the phrases "chicken little", "ad hominem", and "the boy who cried wolf"? They are not clever or adding to your posts. [/b]
since when has cleverness or quality of contribution been deciding factors in what this dude posts? besides, using latin automatically makes your argument stronger. just ask lawyers.
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chicken little is latin?
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no, but "the boy who cried wolf" is.
just occurred to me: mr. "ad hominem" himself recently dismissed a person's point because it contained typos. talk about addressing the substance! argumentum ad idiotum.
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rectum?
damn near killed em!!!