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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on October 13, 2004, 09:35:00 am
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<img src="http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I28471-2004Oct12L" alt=" - " />
Punk Rock's New Colors: True Blue
Beneath the Tattoos Beats A Conservative's Heart
By David Segal
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 13, 2004; Page C01
NEW YORK
Over lunch at a restaurant in midtown Manhattan, Nick Rizzuto is giving a tour of his tattoos.
"I have them all over," he says, dropping his fork to gesture with his right hand. "One bird -- a swallow -- on each shoulder, an old sailor, a piece on my arm, a nautical star on my back. I have a cop and a gangster on each shoulder, one on my stomach, one on each leg."
There's also a work in progress on a biceps. "I have to get it colored in," he says of his most elaborate bit of body art: a pair of bombs, surrounded by a flame and emblazoned with a sacred heart. The significance?
"It looks cool."
The tattoos are typical of a devotee of punk rock, which is what Rizzuto has been since the day he heard the Dead Kennedys back in high school. Only when the 23-year-old starts talking politics does the guy sound . . . different. On any issue you can think of, Rizzuto and all his subcutaneous ink side squarely with the Republicans, and come November he is going to vote for President Bush.
This is news he'd like you, and the rest of the world, to hear loud and clear. In December, Rizzuto -- fed up with the widespread assumption that all punks are liberals, and with the help of a few friends -- launched a Web site called Conservative Punk. On it, Rizzuto rants against the Democrats in general and John Kerry in particular, focusing largely on foreign policy matters. The gist is that Kerry and other liberals aren't fit to fight the war on terrorism.
"I have a complete lack of trust for the left wing in this country," Rizzuto says, a little sneeringly.
Last week, Rizzuto trashed Kerry's approach to the "Islamo-Fascist Mullahocracy" in Iran, comparing it to the appeasement strategy of British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain in dealings with Nazi Germany.
"Such fraternization with Fascist apologists," Rizzuto huffs on the site, "by an American political party should not, and cannot, be tolerated, especially within today's global parameters."
In the months since ConservativePunk.com was unveiled, the site has been visited more than a million times, and what Rizzuto calls the "freak factor" of his political leanings in tandem with his musical tastes has assured plenty of media attention, including television appearances on Fox News. Rizzuto has received thousands of e-mails, about half of them supportive, he says, the rest hostile.
"A lot of people were saying, 'I can't believe there are people who feel the way I do.' And a lot of people wrote to say this is a travesty. I also got some death threats. People take this stuff seriously," he says.
Embracing the right is pretty much a no-no in the punk realm. Since the late '70s, behind standard bearers like the Clash and the Dead Kennedys, punk has been linked with a left-leaning critique of government that sees politicians as tools of major corporations, indifferent to the working class and poor, and often corrupt. Punk bands were at the forefront of the Rock Against Reagan tour back in the early '80s and more recently a group called Punk Voter has organized a series of Rock Against Bush shows. It's also released a pair of Rock Against Bush CDs, featuring bands like the Foo Fighters and Green Day. More than a half-million copies of the discs have been sold, says spokesman Toby Jeg.
"Punk has always been music for misfits, for pimply-faced kids who feel like they're not in the mainstream," Jeg says. "And people like that tend to have progressive politics. They know what it's like to feel like a member of a minority. They look at Bush and see the guy who beat them up in high school, or the guy with the fancy car who just skates through life because his dad is rich."
Everyone agrees that liberals still outnumber conservatives in the punk world by a wide margin, but there's anecdotal evidence that the number of dyed-in-the-skin Republicans is growing. While there are no definitive surveys on the subject, Dan Jacobs, the owner of American Streak Records, a Republican-oriented punk label, has been conducting his own informal exit polls at punk shows in the last few months.
"About 35 to 40 percent of people who identify themselves as likely voters say they are going to vote for Bush," says Jacobs, who has a day job working for a research company when he isn't releasing anti-Kerry compilation CDs. "That's true even at Rock Against Bush shows. We hear over and over again that fans love the bands but hate their politics."
The data, while hardly scientific, actually mirror national polls about young voters. A survey released last week by Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates found that 39 percent of likely voters between 18 and 24 describe themselves as conservatives, a few points higher than the 35 percent who call themselves liberal. The rest are independents.
"There's a common misperception that Kerry has a lock on the youth vote," says Adam Alexander of the New Voters Project, a nonpartisan group that has been registering young voters in a handful of swing states. "That's just not true."
Traditionally, none of this would matter because the Spring Break age bracket has a dreadful track record when it comes to showing up on Election Day. This year looks different. The number of voters who identify themselves on one or the other side of the political spectrum is at an all-time high, says pollster Mark Penn, and that presages a good turnout. If the kids actually vote there's no telling what could happen, given how evenly divided the country is today.
"Look at how narrow the margins were in 2000, and not just in Florida," says Alexander. " . . . It's not hyperbole to say that the candidate who wins this age group will win the election."
Within punk, a conservative movement, if it can be called that, was probably inevitable. The genre has always been a haven for the marginalized, but it was easier to nurture a sense of outsiderdom when there was something startling about the music and nobody had ever seen a Mohawk. Back in the '70s, most of the Sex Pistols' singles were banned from the BBC. Now punk is a steady business for a group of major labels and the nominally independent subsidiaries they own. There's nothing particularly menacing about super-selling pop-punk bands like Good Charlotte, Sum 41 and Green Day.
So if you still nurture the punk impulse to be vilified or if you just love to buck the orthodoxy, declaring yourself a Republican punk is a good shortcut to infamy. As a side benefit, Republican punks are unpopular and therefore broke, which hands them the classic punk role of underdog.
"When is Sum 41 doing research about the issues?" Rizzutto snorts, more than a little skeptically. "On the way to their photo shoot at Tiger Beat magazine?
"The central core of punk is all about being an individual and thinking for yourself. Liberalism is trendy right now. Liberalism is pop culture. I'm not saying it's not punk to be liberal. By the same token there's nothing unpunk about being a conservative."
With his shirt on and his tattoos hidden, Rizzuto looks like a slightly nerdy bike messenger. There are plumber's chains around each wrist -- again, "looks cool" -- and a hoop earring in each lobe. His bosses at the radio station where he answers phones for the sales staff asked him to take off the wrist chains, but he didn't and they haven't brought up the subject again.
"Check this out," he says when he sits down for lunch, handing over a printout. It's a story about young protesters in Iran who'd set fire to an Islamic propaganda office in the northern city of Rasht.
"They are on the verge of overthrowing the government there," he says. "It's amazing. But I don't see any stories about this in any of the media."
Rizzuto is slight and intense but hardly humorless. Asked about his long-term ambitions he says he wants to make money and get drunk on the weekends. And he isn't the sort of conservative who can say nothing positive about a Democrat. But he's traveled a long way from his mind-set in 2000, when he voted for Ralph Nader.
"I was as liberal as anyone back then," he says.
The attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, rewired his worldview. He supported the Bush administration's invasion of Iraq and has no patience for naysayers. His attitudes hardened watching his college classmates at the New Paltz campus of SUNY, which he describes as the most liberal in the New York college system. The protests against globalization seem to have left Rizzuto, a public communications major, particularly frazzled.
"Being on a college campus and seeing the disinformation passed around from one person to another, seeing these protesters who don't even know what they're protesting," he says, shaking his head, "it really disheartens you."
After graduating, Rizzuto went from disheartened to peeved by regularly reading PunkVoter.org. Last December he decided to start his own site. His mom and dad, with whom he lives in their home in Rockland County, a nearby suburb, liked the idea. Both vote Republican, too.
"I immediately began thinking that this would be a great merchandising thing," says Dennis Rizzuto, who owns his own media-technology company. "You know, all of a sudden you're getting sponsored, you're getting advertising. And he just rejected all of that. I think it actually bugged him that I suggested it. That's when I realized how sincere he was."
Building the site cost nothing. Rizzuto recruited friends, all of whom worked for free, one handling graphics, another coding and another who gave him free server space. As soon as ConservativePunk.com launched, Rizzuto was fending off charges that he was a walking oxymoron.
The reality is that the GOP has had a handful of punk fans over the years, most notably the recently deceased Johnny Ramone, founding father of the three-chord buzz-saw sound. He was an outspoken Republican who tried, and failed, to keep drug references out of Ramones tunes and played an anti-Reagan song called "Bonzo Goes to Bitburg" only because he was outvoted by the other members of his band.
Today, there is a minuscule subcategory of conservative punk bands in the clubs. Generally, like Rizzuto, these are the children of Republicans who believe that national security issues now trump any social issues on the table. They're not bothered by gay marriage and they're likely to be pro-choice on abortion, but they'll back the man they think will provide the best offense against terrorists.
For Janet Hoyler, bass player for a band called Smart Bombs and Applepie, that's Bush.
"We've never had a confrontation at a show or anything like that," says Hoyler, who is based in Kerry's home state of Massachusetts. "Typically, we play our political songs in the second half of the show and once we start I see a lot of people heading outside to smoke a cigarette. That's their choice."
Like Hoyler, Rizzuto sounds a lot more tolerant than the state-of-the-art conservative these days. He's essentially a hawk with an abiding hunch that government can't be trusted to do anything but keep the country safe.
On Friday night, he watched the second presidential debate and was especially riled whenever Kerry sounded like he was going to spend the taxpayers' money.
"That was a never-ending promise!" he shouted as the senator said he'd make sure everyone had health care coverage. "There's no way he'll be able to keep that. No way!"
When Kerry criticized the size of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, Rizzuto was writhing. "He should always mention the allies we do have," he fumed.
Not that he was blown away by Bush's performance. Rizzuto rubbed his head in dismay at a few of the president's answers, more because of style than content. In the end, he thought Bush had improved on his first debate performance, but, he concluded reluctantly, "I'll still say it's victory for Kerry."
By the time the candidates shook hands and were joined by their wives onstage, Rizzuto seemed exhausted. Yes, being a conservative punk is an excellent way to become notorious, but that doesn't mean it's easy.
"Wow," he sighed, as the pundits began their post-debate chatter. "I'm in the mood for a cigarette."
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I love how the so-called "liberal media" bends over backwards to give equal time and coverage to the conservative "punks," as if they're equally represented in the punk subculture ... even though they're ridiculously outnumbered. The Punkvoter effort, which is far larger and more representative, gets a paragraph or two and some schmuck with a soapbox gets a whole article. this election is the best thing that will ever happen to that guy.
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I think it's great. Someone actually willing to make up thier own mind and not letting the entertainers of the world do that for them. Being Anti-Bush and anyone but Bush (still no real support for Kerry) is the in thing these days. Most young (18 - 21) voters aren't really looking into the matters at hand and just going with who Billie Joe or Mos Def or whoever tells them. More power to the man!
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Originally posted by LRHippo:
I think it's great. Someone actually willing to make up thier own mind and not letting the entertainers of the world do that for them. Being Anti-Bush and anyone but Bush (still no real support for Kerry) is the in thing these days. Most young (18 - 21) voters aren't really looking into the matters at hand and just going with who Billie Joe or Mos Def or whoever tells them. More power to the man!
I think the article says most of the republican punks are children of republicans
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Pollard beat me to it. I'm too wordy. :D
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And your point is...?
Originally posted by pollard:
I think the article says most of the republican punks are children of republicans
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
[QB] And your point is...?
Many articles have been written before on young voters' choice to follow in their parents' footsteps when it comes to political parties. Obviously, a good portion change their minds over time and may swing conservative or liberal (or in my case, independent because I vote both).
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
And your point is...?
that they haven't necessarily thought for themselves
not saying that all people who are republicans and have republican parents have not thought for themselves, but I think the article is trying to show that alot of them are republican for that reason, not because they dont want to listen to the hollywood elite
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Just checking.
I think there tends to be a double standard. Republican kids of Republican parents are generally considered to be blindly following their parents while Democrat kids of Democrat parents are not.
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I think that's partly because most Democrats encourage people to think for themselves, while most Republicans are expected to "do what you're told."
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Just checking.
I think there tends to be a double standard. Republican kids of Republican parents are generally considered to be blindly following their parents while Democrat kids of Democrat parents are not.
This is something that I don't personally hear a lot about. I think if you blindly follow your parents' position without investigating for yourself, no matter if it is politics, relgion, whatever, then you are a tool. Before you start to create a perspective, do some research first.
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I think that's partly because most Democrats encourage people to think for themselves, while most Republicans are expected to "do what you're told."
[insert]rolly-eyes[/insert]
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As a future parent, I don't have a problem with my kids blindly following my way. The way that has been learned through (by then) 55-60 years of life experiences compared to their 15-20.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
As a future parent, I don't have a problem with my kids blindly following my way. The way that has been learned through (by then) 55-60 years of life experiences compared to their 15-20.
That's part of learning. Researching why parents feel a certain way, and deciding whether you agree or not. I know I differ from my parents on certain things, based on my own experiences, as well as considering theirs, and reading up along the way.
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I would hope that by the time someone is 20 years old, they're not blindly following anything.
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I would hope that at 20, you realize you don't know shit, and your parents probably know a hell of a lot more than you.
This, however, is rarely the case.
Originally posted by Bombay Chutney:
I would hope that by the time someone is 20 years old, they're not blindly following anything.
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My father remains a moderate republican which of course is why I voted for a moderate independent candidate in my first election.
<img src="http://www.4president.org/images/1980/johnanderson1980gop.gif" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I would hope that at 20, you realize you don't know shit, and your parents probably know a hell of a lot more than you.
If you're 20 and still think your parents know everything, then you are correct - you don't know shit.
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I'm not sure that using Sum 41 as your punk example makes your point any stronger. Though, for comedic value, I did laugh out loud.
And secondly, I'm not sure that saying you've gone from "from as liberal as anyone" to a Republican because of the Bush Administrations Foreign Policy decisions, truly makes you a conservative. The vast majority of conservative rhetoric has its roots in domestic agendas, not foreign policy. I think he should probably call his web site punks for the invasion of Iraq rather than conservative punk. Or, he should post more thoughts on the conservatives doemstic agenda that he agrees with or wants others to be aware of. This election is about more than the invasion of Iraq. Single issue politics is bad for the nation.
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Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
I would hope that at 20, you realize you don't know shit, and your parents probably know a hell of a lot more than you.
especially those kids with racist parents and alcoholics.
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I have several friends under 30 who are Republicans. they all had thier college tuition paid for them, and were probably the kids in high school that got the new Dr. Martens bought for them at the beginning of every school year.
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My first thought on seeing this article this morning was that this dude isn't very bright. I think Mr. Segal is using the article to slyly poke fun at Mr. Rizzuto (and conservative punks) more than anything else.
Originally posted by vansmack:
I'm not sure that using Sum 41 as your punk makes your point any stronger. Though, for comedic value, I did laugh out loud.
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I think I've seen that guy at the Black Cat
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being 21 and with the heightened importance of this election among kids my age, i must say that all those i know who are republicans are simply just reiterating the opinions of their ignorant parents...its true democrats have to for their own opinions....republicans are so fucking bullheaded too, nothing can change their minds, and in the cases of people my age, of course they think their parents are right, thus, the republicans know best and blablablahhhh.
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But what seperates republicans who are "reiterating the opinions of their ignorant parents" from Democrats that are thinking for themselves? Seems to me, as relatively independant, that both sides spew their respective propaganda at any chance they get. I mean, what makes you know more than a Republican? I have yet to see any Democrats change their minds. Why is that not just as pigheaded?
Originally posted by tinygee:
being 21 and with the heightened importance of this election among kids my age, i must say that all those i know who are republicans are simply just reiterating the opinions of their ignorant parents...its true democrats have to for their own opinions....republicans are so fucking bullheaded too, nothing can change their minds, and in the cases of people my age, of course they think their parents are right, thus, the republicans know best and blablablahhhh.
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thats true, but at this stage in the race, it has to be like that, i mean we are in the middle of an election...as far as the four years in between, it seems a lot more a possiblity of democrats willing to accept other opinions and perhaps even change their own, rather than republicans....if kerry wins, most republicans will hate it and sulk, rather than just simply support our president...and dont get me wrong i myself am an independent.
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Apparently NKOTBIE didn't get the memo:
Republicans = Bad; Fascist; Censorship; Automatons; Cross-burning; Goose-stepping; bullheaded.
Democrats = Good; Free-thinkers; Puppy dogs; Sun-filled fields of waving amber grains.
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So let me get this straight. If Kerry wins, then Republicans will moan and sulk. If Bush wins, then Democrats will dance in the streets and change their morals.
Originally posted by tinygee:
it seems a lot more a possiblity of democrats willing to accept other opinions and perhaps even change their own, rather than republicans....if kerry wins, most republicans will hate it and sulk, rather than just simply support our president...and dont get me wrong i myself am an independent.
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hahahahaha.......good one, no thats not what i mean, but the whole point is just that democrats seem more open minded thats all. hey im not saying at all i know what im talking about, ive only been paying attention to the presidency the past 4 years so what the fuck should i know.
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So let me get this straight. If Kerry wins, then Republicans will moan and sulk. If Bush wins, then Democrats will dance in the streets and change their morals.
sorry just trying to get this right.
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man i am that stupid if i cant get the quote deal right, disregard all of my opinion in this thread please.
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Originally posted by tinygee:
hahahahaha.......good one, no thats not what i mean, but the whole point is just that democrats seem more open minded thats all. hey im not saying at all i know what im talking about, ive only been paying attention to the presidency the past 4 years so what the fuck should i know.
Democrats were protesting Bush before he even took office. Is that your definition of "open-minded"?
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See this graphic :)
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Democrats were protesting Bush before he even took office. Is that your definition of "open-minded"?
you may remember his election was a bit different than most
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Originally posted by Random Citizen:
See this graphic :)
thanks. yes pollard, exactly what i was going to say, they were protesting because of a ridiculously unfair election.
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Originally posted by tinygee:
thanks. yes pollard, exactly what i was going to say, they were protesting because of a ridiculously unfair election.
well i left out the commentary, so not quite exactly what I said
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crap Social Distortion soldout and I have no ticket :confused:
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Originally posted by pollard:
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Democrats were protesting Bush before he even took office. Is that your definition of "open-minded"?
you may remember his election was a bit different than most [/b]
A. Protests were not all about the elections.
B. The assertion was that Democrats accept election results and support the President, whereas Republicans get mad and sulk. Close election or not, the results were the results.
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In a breakfast gathering in Davenport, Iowa, Cheney spoke to about 60 local Republicans. He took four questions from the audience that turned out to be testimonials praising the work of Bush. "Next to Jesus Christ, he probably took the greatest load on his shoulder of any individual," one attendee said.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
crap Social Distortion soldout and I have no ticket :confused:
Wait one second...Social D is playing???? I completly missed that one!
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
B. The assertion was that Democrats accept election results and support the President, whereas Republicans get mad and sulk. Close election or not, the results were the results.
unless you thought they were not the results, I don't agree with tinygee but I don't think the fact that people protested counters the assertion
there is a big difference between not liking the incoming president but knowing that he won, and not liking the incoming president and feeling that he was not elected
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Originally posted by LRHippo:
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
crap Social Distortion soldout and I have no ticket :confused:
Wait one second...Social D is playing???? I completly missed that one! [/b]
yeah they are playing at nation next monday, i was dragging my feet due to basically having to buy tickets via ticketmaster and the fact that it was at nation...
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Originally posted by pollard:
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
B. The assertion was that Democrats accept election results and support the President, whereas Republicans get mad and sulk. Close election or not, the results were the results.
unless you thought they were not the results, I don't agree with tinygee but I don't think the fact that people protested counters the assertion
there is a big difference between not liking the incoming president but knowing that he won, and not liking the incoming president and feeling that he was not elected [/b]
so you agree with me pollard if he did think in fact those were the results? you're double negatives are confusing.
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Originally posted by tinygee:
so you agree with me pollard if he did think in fact those were the results? you're double negatives are confusing.
there are not no double negative in what I said
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That guy is on the front page of the Post's website now. Slow news day, I 'spose.
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YOUR improper contractions are confusing.
Originally posted by tinygee:
Originally posted by pollard:
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
B. The assertion was that Democrats accept election results and support the President, whereas Republicans get mad and sulk. Close election or not, the results were the results.
unless you thought they were not the results, I don't agree with tinygee but I don't think the fact that people protested counters the assertion
there is a big difference between not liking the incoming president but knowing that he won, and not liking the incoming president and feeling that he was not elected [/b]
so you agree with me pollard if he did think in fact those were the results? you're double negatives are confusing. [/b]
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Originally posted by Random Citizen:
That guy is on the front page of the Post's website now. Slow news day, I 'spose.
Must be a slow book year as well:
ST. PAUL, Minn. - The final report of the 9/11 Commission led the list of finalists for the National Book Awards announced Wednesday. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29376-2004Oct13.html)
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by Random Citizen:
That guy is on the front page of the Post's website now. Slow news day, I 'spose.
Must be a slow book year as well:
ST. PAUL, Minn. - The final report of the 9/11 Commission led the list of finalists for the National Book Awards announced Wednesday. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29376-2004Oct13.html) [/b]
nothing different from when Kenneth Starr's report book came out...
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Originally posted by vansmack:
The vast majority of conservative rhetoric has its roots in domestic agendas, not foreign policy.
And, amazingly, that agenda was for LESS government and LESS government involvement in your life. Today, they only mean 'less' when they're talking about taxes. For a few. The Reps in power today are not traditional conservatives, they're Christian neo-cons. Very different.
Originally posted by vansmack:
This election is about more than the invasion of Iraq. Single issue politics is bad for the nation.
Although this does buy in to the long-lived knee jerk assumption that only Republicans (1) care about defense, (2) will protect our nation, and (3) are tough enough to take on [insert enemy here].
After 9/11, no sitting president is going to scrimp on defense or take defense lightly -- not for the next 20-30 years, certainly.
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i'm so tempeted to remove the picture at the start of this thread :p
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PS, I agree that Dems can be as knee jerk as Reps. While Dems would like to think so, I'm not sure they're more open to conservative ideas than vice versa. However, I do believe they are more open to other ways of life, other priorities, etc. Except for libertarian Republicans, who really shouldn't be Republican at all.
I just happen to agree with the liberal jerks....
Did I really say that? :p
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why?
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
i'm so tempeted to remove the picture at the start of this thread :p
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it annoys me everytime i see his face...
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
it annoys me everytime i see his face...
They had rotating pictures of the guy on the Post's web site yesterday, and this was the most manly looking of all the pictures. There was another one where I thought it was a girl everytime I saw it, even after I had read the article.
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Originally posted by Bags:
Except for libertarian Republicans, who really shouldn't be Republican at all.
I just happen to agree with the liberal jerks....
Did I really say that? :D :D :D
You are opening up, Bags!
Congratulations!
For the most part, most of those type are only registered as Republicans because they still want the privelege of voting in the primaries. In fact, many of them were Dems at one time and got disgusted and that was their means of trying to balance things out as they know how important the primary elections are in the end.
Just to be bi-partisan here, I think GGW has also shown a lot of open mindedness lately too about both of the major candidates. Yes Barcelona, he has lately cited Bush on some negatives and tried to present a fair arguement without being so one-sided.