930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: BoomBoom on October 21, 2005, 12:10:00 pm
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How on Earth does Tickets.com/9:30 Club justify its outrageous ticket fees? The last time I checked, a stamp cost 37 cents. But Tickets.com charges $3.25 to mail tickets -- or will call. And that's on top of another $4. That's a 50% markup if you're going to a $15 show. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
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who wants to take this one? and behave ok
:D
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Buy tickets at the box office. It costs $1.
What you pay at tickets.com or ticketmaster is a convenience fee. For 930 and Blackcat you do not have to pay it, but you have to go to the venue to get tickets.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
How on Earth does Tickets.com/9:30 Club justify its outrageous ticket fees? The last time I checked, a stamp cost 37 cents. But Tickets.com charges $3.25 to mail tickets -- or will call. And that's on top of another $4. That's a 50% markup if you're going to a $15 show. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
Do you like having that box office staffed and open during business hours? They have to pay those employees somehow.
Do you like not having to drive to the venue to get your ticket? Do you like not having to wait in line overnight for shows that will sell out immediately at venue box offices? Internet makes things awfully convenient, doesn't it? Hence you pay for the convenience. No one forces you to buy through tickets.com, as someone said you can go to the venue and pay no fees. You CHOOSE not to. Sort of like, you don't have to eat at a restaurant, but when you CHOOSE to, you can expect them to not sell you food at the price it cost them because you get the convenience of not cooking.
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Originally posted by MTB-Markie:
Buy tickets at the box office. It costs $1.
do they still charge the $1 at the box office? for some reason I have not noticed it the last couple of times I've bought tix
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<img src="http://www.dimpleandasmirk.com/forum/inconceivable.jpg" alt=" - " />
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Well done gold stars for each of you...
<img src="http://www.motosantigas.com.br/bsa/gold%20star%20dbd34%201956.jpg" alt=" - " />
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I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for ordering tickets online or over the phone. But more than $7 on a $15 ticket is NOT a reasonable fee. TicketMaster and Tickets.com are basically monopolies -- they don't compete to sell tickets for the same venues, shows. So they basically charge whatever they want. How much do you think it costs them to set up and maintain an automated Web site? Not much. And they get a huge break on bulk mail. Yet they charge you $3.25 to mail your ticket or hold it at will call. It's indefensible.
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Second Team take your places
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
But more than $7 on a $15 ticket is NOT a reasonable fee.
"Actions speak louder then words."
If it was "unreasonable" then you wouldn't have paid it - you would've gone to the venue and bought them without charges. What's that? Too far away? Don't have the time? Guess it was reasonable then, huh?
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I didn't pay it. How can you defend this? What is your rationale? Please explain how you find their fees reasonable.
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Because they are morons.
Originally posted by BoomBoom:
I didn't pay it. How can you defend this?
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Nobody is defending them, the fees are what they are... If they are too high for the convience then find some other way to get the tickets.
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And frankly, tickets.com is a business, they need to play their employees just like any other business, as well as benefits. This is a fact of life, either deal with it, or go to the box office.
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Is that why they charge me a 50% markup on my groceries at Giant when I go through the line with a cashier rather than the self checkout line?
Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
[/qb]
Do you like having that box office staffed and open during business hours? They have to pay those employees somehow.
[/QB][/QUOTE]
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So the bottom line is you're just apathetic; you don't mind being ripped off. I do. And I know a lot of other people who are really put off by this and have just not been going to shows any more or being very selective about the ones they do go to. And, yes, since D.C. is a sprawling metro area, some people (myself not included, fortunately) can't go down to the club during its very limited box office hours and buy tickets.
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Originally posted by Xavier Bush, Power Forward:
Is that why they charge me a 50% markup on my groceries at Giant when I go through the line with a cashier rather than the self checkout line?
Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
[/b]
Do you like having that box office staffed and open during business hours? They have to pay those employees somehow.
[/QB]
[/QB][/QUOTE]
not even a good analogy...
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
How can you defend this? What is your rationale? Please explain how you find their fees reasonable.
I defend it in this way: the tickets.com fee on a ticket is what $7? What is it going to cost me in gas to go to the venue to avoid the fee? How much time is it going to take out of my life?
If I have to ride the metro for 45 minutes each way to buy the ticket, I'm out probably $2 for the metro plus 1.5 hours of my life. 1.5 multiplied by what I make in an hour comes out far more then $7. Certainly if I was going to the 9:30 Club in the near future for another reason, I'd buy my tickets then if it wasn't going to sell out. But to make a special trip to avoid $7? Foolish. (Particularly for those of us - gasp! - who don't live in DC and it would be 2 hours each way plus gas! Think how much less our costs are compared to a tank of gas and 4 hours of our life times whatever quantifiable value you wish to attribute to our time).
Or, alternately, what if the show was a "sure sell out," the type that sells out in minutes? I would have to log my way to DC, get to the venue at 10am, if not sooner, and miss work, take a vacation day, possibly even camp overnight in DC in some cases to make sure I get a ticket. Or, I can pay $7. How can I justify not?
The tickets.com (or ticketmaster) convenience fee is not supposed to match up to what it costs tickets.com to sell you the ticket; it's supposed to match up to the massive inconvenience you'd face sans online ticket companies.
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And, yes, since D.C. is a sprawling metro area, some people (myself not included, fortunately) can't go down to the club during its very limited box office hours
the box office is open from noon till 11pm almost every day - doesn't strike me as limited at all
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Man, I would have thought their would have been fewer rah-rah capitalists in a rock club forum. What is the world coming to? Must be because it's D.C. -- conformist, conservative and comfortably smug. I'm sure that Tickets.com is lavishing huge salaries on its employees and paying them Cadillac benefits. C'mon -- these fees are lining the pockets of the execs and the club owners. Bottom line: they are not reasonable fees. They are a ripoff.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
So the bottom line is you're just apathetic; you don't mind being ripped off. I do. And I know a lot of other people who are really put off by this and have just not been going to shows any more or being very selective about the ones they do go to. And, yes, since D.C. is a sprawling metro area, some people (myself not included, fortunately) can't go down to the club during its very limited box office hours and buy tickets.
limited hours?
The 9:30 Club Box Office Hours (815 V St. N.W.)
12-7pm M-F
12-11pm M-F during show nights only
6-11pm SAT. during show nights only
6-10:30pm SUN. during show nights only
I wont say people are apathetic... Who would you rather pay the convience fee to? The ticketing service or a ticket broker for a sold out show.
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Ticket broker. It's a supply-demand issue with them. Here it's just a ripoff. No matter how many tickets are left, you have to pay $3.25 for postage/will-call on top of the other $4 fee.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Man, I would have thought their would have been fewer rah-rah capitalists in a rock club forum. What is the world coming to? Must be because it's D.C. -- conformist, conservative and comfortably smug. I'm sure that Tickets.com is lavishing huge salaries on its employees and paying them Cadillac benefits. C'mon -- these fees are lining the pockets of the execs and the club owners. Bottom line: they are not reasonable fees. They are a ripoff.
We were being nice about this... Those ticket fees also line the pockets of artists, keep clubs open, etc.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
So the bottom line is you're just apathetic; you don't mind being ripped off. I do. And, yes, since D.C. is a sprawling metro area, some people (myself not included, fortunately) can't go down to the club during its very limited box office hours and buy tickets.
sounds like you're the apathetic one - you state its not a problem for you to get to the box office yet you choose not to?
Do you expect these companies to act as charities - its called the free market for a reason - if you don't like the charges don't go or buy em at the box office
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Man, I would have thought their would have been fewer rah-rah capitalists in a rock club forum.
It's not about capitalism, it's about my (the consumer's best interest). There is absolutely no way someone like myself who travels up and down the coast seeing shows can do so without ticketmaster/tickets.com. If I had to be at every venue when tickets went on sale to buy tickets, I'd be out innumerable thousands of dollars in travel costs and time off work as compared to the relatively minute sum of $7/show.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Ticket broker. It's a supply-demand issue with them. Here it's just a ripoff.
You're not even responding to points people are making, nor are you being logical. People didn't "demand" someway to buy tickets without massive interruption to their life?
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Ticket broker. It's a supply-demand issue with them. Here it's just a ripoff.
You're not even responding to points people are making, nor are you being logical. People didn't "demand" someway to buy tickets without massive interruption to their life? [/b]
they did actually respond to my query...
it has also been pointed out by the club management that even if they brought the online ticketing in house, that people would still complain about the service charges.
if it's such a big issue then start your own competing firm and good luck with it...
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
How much do you think it costs them to set up and maintain an automated Web site? Not much.
Think so? Want to throw out a dollar figure there?
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No, I don't expect them to act as charities and I don't expect them to go out of business, forcing you to go to the club every time you need a ticket. But I do expect them to charge reasonable fees, and they would if there were competition in this field, which is what true capitalism is. Otherwise, it's a monopoly. Again, I go back to my first point: a stamp costs 37 cents, a lot less for bulk mailers. Tickets.com is charging $3.25 for mailing or will call. That is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. It is a ripoff. They wouldn't do that if they competed against TicketMaster or someone else for venues/shows. It's a distorted market.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
So the bottom line is you're just apathetic; you don't mind being ripped off. I do. And I know a lot of other people who are really put off by this and have just not been going to shows any more or being very selective about the ones they do go to. And, yes, since D.C. is a sprawling metro area, some people (myself not included, fortunately) can't go down to the club during its very limited box office hours and buy tickets.
did you just start buying concert ticktes or something?
they've been charging ridiculous fees for a long time. and the fees only go up as the cost of the tickets go up as well.
the convenience charge isn't really a factor in my buying or not buying tickets. what pisses me off is having to shell out 2x the $$ for the same artists that i saw in similar sized venues (or the same venues) in previous years.
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Cat's Cardle uses etix.com which costs $1/ticket, but there aren't really tickets, just massive will call lists/print outs.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Ticket broker. It's a supply-demand issue with them. Here it's just a ripoff. No matter how many tickets are left, you have to pay $3.25 for postage/will-call on top of the other $4 fee.
i would never give money to a ticket broker.
if you really want to avoid having to pay fees or ridiculous prices, make yourself friend with the band and get guestlisted. then you could complain about something like drink prices.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Cat's Cardle uses etix.com which costs $1/ticket, but there aren't really tickets, just massive will call lists/print outs.
and the line takes forever to move there sometimes too.
i like having actual ticket stubs also.
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I've been going to concerts for a long time. And I remember a time when supposed "alernative" clubs like the 9:30 cared about their customers and did everything they could to save them a few bucks. I'm just fed up. $3.25 for postage? C'mon.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
If I have to ride the metro for 45 minutes each way to buy the ticket, I'm out probably $2 for the metro plus 1.5 hours of my life. 1.5 multiplied by what I make in an hour comes out far more then $7. Certainly if I was going to the 9:30 Club in the near future for another reason, I'd buy my tickets then if it wasn't going to sell out. But to make a special trip to avoid $7? Foolish. (Particularly for those of us - gasp! - who don't live in DC and it would be 2 hours each way plus gas! Think how much less our costs are compared to a tank of gas and 4 hours of our life times whatever quantifiable value you wish to attribute to our time).
[/QB]
if i only had to ride the metro for 45 minutes to get tickets at the box office, i would be pretty happy. i do have to drive 2 hours each way to get tickets so i only am able to buy tickets at the box office when i'm already up there for something.
i go ahead and pay the fees. it's not really an option for me if i want to go to certain shows.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Again, I go back to my first point: a stamp costs 37 cents, a lot less for bulk mailers. Tickets.com is charging $3.25 for mailing or will call.
NO! This is where you're mistaken. Tickets.com DOES NOT charge $3.25 for mailing you the tickets or for holding them at will call. That 3.25 is part of the "CONVENIENCE fee". That's $3.25 is the cost for the CONVENIENCE of you not having to come to the venue like I've outlined. This is why it's called the "CONVENIENCE fee" not the "COST OF MAILING IT TO YOU fee."
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Originally posted by distance:
and the line takes forever to move there sometimes too.
i like having actual ticket stubs also.
Oh, I agree on both points, just adding that to the conversation.
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monopoly: NOUN: 1. Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service
If Seth thought tickets.com was charging excessive fees and it was hurting his business he would switch back to ticketmaster (which I believe has happened before).
Now, if tickets.com and ticketmaster got together and agreed to keep their prices high then you have illegal price fixing. Call your congressman! Call 60 Minutes!
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It also should be pointed out there are alternatives to tickets.com & the box office. bands often presell tickets via their own ticketing agency with fees sometimes, lower, equal or higher than tickets.com. The amount of the handling fee can be argued to death...
there are also tickets.com outlets one can go to... don't think the additional handling fee is applied there.
http://www.tickets.com/b2b/maryland_virginia_outlets.html (http://www.tickets.com/b2b/maryland_virginia_outlets.html)
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I'm not aware of artists getting a cut of those ticket fees, but I may be mistaken. Here's an anecdote: A few years back Billy Bragg played a show at the Smithsonian and the fees charged by TicketMaster doubled the face value of the ticket -- and it was a show honoring Woody Guthrie, no less. I sent a query to Bragg's Web site, not expecting a reply. But I did get one and it claimed they have no control over those fees and don't see a dime from them. The predatory mentality that drives this is the same one that causes record companies to charge twice as much for CDs as they did for vinyl when it's actually cheaper to make a CD. Then they wonder why people pirate like crazy.
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Distance hit the nail on the head. Why should I spend ridiculous money to see bands that I saw a while back in smaller venues for far less money? I'm convinced that as long as there are people on a limited budget who enjoy good music, there will always be "alternative" rock. How can one justify spending hundreds of dollars for a 2-hour show, when you can go to a small club with fewer people to enjoy a band playing for 15 bucks? There are plenty of decent bands that play for even less dough, you just have to find the ones that suit your taste. It's not like going to see U2, but at least it's a way to still enjoy concerts without breaking the bank.
I will also stick up for the 9:30 and say their $1 ticket charge is quite reasonable...compared to $3.50 that the Birchmere charges.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Again, I go back to my first point: a stamp costs 37 cents, a lot less for bulk mailers. Tickets.com is charging $3.25 for mailing or will call.
NO! This is where you're mistaken. Tickets.com DOES NOT charge $3.25 for mailing you the tickets or for holding them at will call. That 3.25 is part of the "CONVENIENCE fee". That's $3.25 is the cost for the CONVENIENCE of you not having to come to the venue like I've outlined. This is why it's called the "CONVENIENCE fee" not the "COST OF MAILING IT TO YOU fee." [/b]
You are a moron. They charge a convenience fee, then they add a $3.25 mailing fee which they charge you even if you Will Call tickets.
Very Bright YOu ARe NOT.
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Originally posted by MTB-Markie:
They charge a convenience fee, then they add a $3.25 mailing fee which they charge you even if you Will Call tickets.
It's all part of the same blanket as far as I'm concerned. If you get it mailed, it's part of the convenience of not having to be at the box office. If you get it at the venue via willcall, same thing plus the costs of them running a box office. Would it make you feel better if they just called all $7.50 a convenience fee?
Anyway you want to slice it, the buyer has a choice, and for those of us who take advantage of the service provided by ticketing agents, it's almost always cheaper then the alternative, all things considered.
To complain about ticket fees is sort of like going into a restaurant and complaining they aren't selling food at cost. No shit.
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Besides tickets.com now has a shopping cart feature for 9:30 shows. I've got tickets for Thrice and SFA in my cart with a single handling fee of $3.25 for the entire order, plus individual shows fee of course. In the past you had to pay the handling fee for each show.
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How do you know they're not colluding? Congress did hold "hearings" on this once, and they were a charade -- basically a lot of excuse making for TicketMaster, a major campaign contributor. As for "convenience" charges vs. mailing, I just went through the steps for buying a ticket to Super Furry Animals. Base price: $15. "Service charge": $4.50. "Your tickets will be mailed to you": $3.25. In plain English, that's $3.25 for something that costs them 37 cents or less. Otherwise, they need to find a different way to say it. If they want to have a markup for mailing, fine; that's the way it works. But $3.25?
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Otherwise, they need to find a different way to say it. If they want to have a markup for mailing, fine; that's the way it works. But $3.25?
Oh, so is it your contention that if all $7.50 in fees were just called convenience fee you'd be better with it?
You do realize the fact they break it down as such saves you money if you buy a second ticket, right?
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
In plain English, that's $3.25 for something that costs them 37 cents or less. Otherwise, they need to find a different way to say it.
Just think of the charge as a little over half of a Yeungling at the club, you'll feel much better that way.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
How do you know they're not colluding? Congress did hold "hearings" on this once,
So Congress is on the collusion? Better watch out of the FBI will make you disappear!
How do you know the weather man and umbrella manufacturers aren't in collusion? Demanding proof of innocence isn't very American.
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did you look into seeing if there is tickets.com outlet near you?
another nifty feature of this forum is you can go ask in the F.A.Q. section about how well a show is selling so you can guage whether or not you need to buy them in advance or if they'll be at the door sans service charge fees. Obviously it's a risk for any show and I don't see SFA selling out... But eddie can give the party line on that one. He's cool that eddie...
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Here's what I don't get: someone comes here and complains about ticket fees. OK, people are entitled to their own feelings on things, I get that. But it's not as though he/she is forced to pay it; this poster even said he/she doesn't, and they are aware of the alternative. So, why are you here starting the thread about it? Whining just for the sake of whining? People cannot honestly be stupid enough to think we've never had this discussion before. What's the point? Letting off steam over the moral outrage of $7 you didn't even pay. How very trite. Thinking it's going to change anything? How naive.
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No. $7.50 is a ripoff no matter what it's called. It's monopolistic and it's dishonest. The only reason they get away with it is because so many people willingly argue against their own interests, sticking up for them while they're gouging you. I don't get it. Why doesn't the 9:30 Club just say, "We want to sell the most tickets to the most people possible. So we'll sell them through TicketMaster and Tickets.com. Then they can compete with each other through their fee structure." Answer: they'd make less money if there were competition. TicketMaster and Tickets.com would never stand for it. They'd both blacklist the 9:30 Club.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
So, why are you here starting the thread about it? Whining just for the sake of whining? How very trite. Thinking it's going to change anything? How naive.
Yep,that never happens here. For shame!
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BoomBoom: This is not the place to argue against the policies of the 9:30 Club or anything affilated with it. There are a number of people who post here that will complain about the unfairness of just about anything, but they will never, ever question their beloved 9:30 Club. They will defend it, no matter how irrational their arguments are, or how incorrect the 9:30 Club might be. Some of them will even defend $15 for a cup of Yuengling.
Now, welcome to the community. As long as you say positive things about the 9:30 Club, and like all the cool new indie bands that everyone else likes, you'll get on just fine. ;)
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
In plain English, that's $3.25 for something that costs them 37 cents or less.
Do the tickets magically get put in the envelope and addressed by themselves? A stamp may only cost $0.37, but what it costs them isn't quite the same, now is it?
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
No. $7.50 is a ripoff no matter what it's called.
I'm slow, so you'll have to bear with me, as I ask for one last clarification. I live in Richmond. Richmond is two hours away from the 9:30 Club. It takes me ~4 hours of my life, plus a tank of gas to get to the 9:30 club. Are you saying that somehow it's a ripoff for me to pay $7 to avoid driving for 4 hours and spending $30 on gas? How in doing so, am I "willingly arguing against my own interests"?
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What's naive is to just sit back, let people rip you off and think that's the way it always has to be.
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Originally posted by Xavier Bush, Power Forward:
There are a number of people who post here that will complain about the unfairness of just about anything, but they will never, ever question their beloved 9:30 Club. They will defend it, no matter how irrational their arguments are, or how incorrect the 9:30 Club might be.
Considering I'm leading the pro-tickets.com argument, I don't see how this applies. I disagree with club employees on lots of things, as I'm sure you're observant enough to notice. So, try for once sticking to the issue and not going off on ad hominem.
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No, Richmond. What I'm saying is that the fee is way too high, no matter how far you're coming. It costs them the same to mail a ticket to Richmond as it does to the apartment across the street from the 9:30 Club. But you're paying $3.25 for it. If that's OK with you, OK by me. But it's not OK with me.
Again, I'm not arguing that they have to mail at cost. But $3.25 is outrageous.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
What's naive is to just sit back, let people rip you off and think that's the way it always has to be.
what is also naive is not exploring other ticket purchasing options, such as outlets, ordering tickets with friends, have someone buy you a ticket when they are at the club or in the area.
there was a classic seth quote about how no one is questioning the price of milk in the store..
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
What's naive is to just sit back, let people rip you off and think that's the way it always has to be.
You're right, it could be different. Tickets.com and ticketmaster could shut their doors, all venues could do their own ticketing, and I could be stuck spending $30 on gas and half a vacation day to get tickets to an event.
If you have any sort of constructive criticism, like, "here's the link to an online ticketing company that charges signifigantly less in ticket fees, perhaps Seth should consider using them" then by all means. I'm all for things being better. But complaining on 930.com about another entities fees under the guise of "not taking it, and thinking that's the way it always has to be"? Ridiculous.
As I said, you're just blowing off steam over the "moral outrage" over $7 you didn't even pay. If you want to change things, be constructive, or vote with your dollars, don't be a whiner.
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So how many Confederate Flags and lawn jockeys do you own? And did you stomp on anybody to get your pc?
Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by BoomBoom:
No. $7.50 is a ripoff no matter what it's called.
I'm slow, so you'll have to bear with me, as I ask for one last clarification. I live in Richmond. Richmond is two hours away from the 9:30 Club. It takes me ~4 hours of my life, plus a tank of gas to get to the 9:30 club. Are you saying that somehow it's a ripoff for me to pay $7 to avoid driving for 4 hours and spending $30 on gas? How in doing so, am I "willingly arguing against my own interests"? [/b]
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
If that's OK with you, OK by me. But it's not OK with me.
Great, we understand each other, thread over.
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Unless theres something new from USPS stamps do not affix themselves.
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Originally posted by Xavier Bush, Power Forward:
So how many Confederate Flags and lawn jockeys do you own? And did you stomp on anybody to get your pc?
Tickets.com mailing fee- $3.25
Rhett Miller's attempts at changing the fight- Priceless.
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What's also naive is to make conclusions about the way a business is run when obviously you have no idea.
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I have offered constructive criticism: competition. Why does 9:30 have exclusive agreements with Tickets.com and IMP with TicketMaster? No one has answered that question. Why shouldn't they compete with each other so consumers get the benefit of lower fees? These guys are making out like bandits, that's why.
And to reply to the "stamps don't affix themselves" argument, do you really think somebody at Tickets.com is sitting in a room putting stamps on these things? They order prepaid mailers in bulk, and get a bulk postage discount. So even if they charged 37 cents to mail out a ticket, they'd probably still be making money.
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and SFA's giving tickets away for people you signup on thier mailing list.
is there a DCist expose on this yet?
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
And to reply to the "stamps don't affix themselves" argument, do you really think somebody at Tickets.com is sitting in a room putting stamps on these things? They order prepaid mailers in bulk, and get a bulk postage discount. So even if they charged 37 cents to mail out a ticket, they'd probably still be making money.
My main point is that in the wicked world we live in there is a cost for everything, everything is not as simple as "a stamp is 37 cents and thats all i should pay." Someone or some machine somewhere is doing some work. Sure, it's a rip-off but its not as transparent as you're making it out to be.
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Originally posted by eros:
What's also naive is to make conclusions about the way a business is run when obviously you have no idea.
Exactly. Both Ticketing companies are not small operations and they have mouths to feed too. I can't imagine people who work the phone banks live in the lap of luxury.
Having worked with Ticketmaster on sports events, the service fees don't make them an extraordinary amount of money. Their costs are very high... Also remember that Ticketmasters are franchised by indivdual owners (In DC's case, Abe Pollin and Wash Sport & Ent. own the franchise)
My solution was to move near the 930 club. Like Metrorail, ticket fees higher than a dollar there is a thing of the past for me :cool:
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
Besides tickets.com now has a shopping cart feature for 9:30 shows. I've got tickets for Thrice and SFA in my cart with a single handling fee of $3.25 for the entire order, plus individual shows fee of course. In the past you had to pay the handling fee for each show.
nice. i'll have to take advantage of that next time a band is playing back-to-back nights or something. i havent bought any 930 tickets in a while so i hadn't noticed.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
I have offered constructive criticism: competition. Why does 9:30 have exclusive agreements with Tickets.com and IMP with TicketMaster?
I don't know exactly, since I'm not in the business. I'd presume (and this is pure specualtion) that tickets.com and ticketmaster make venues sign exclusive contracts for this sort of thing, kinda like Pepsi and CocaCola did with restaurants for the longest time. Also, I'd think with ticketing, you need some sort of central database or something to know how many tickets are sold and if there's any left. For sit down venues, you have to know which particular seats are sold. So, if two ticketing agents sold together, where would this central database be? Would each company get a block of tickets? There's alot of issues that would make this difficult.
Also, there is competition in that every few years, ticketmaster and tickets.com negotiate rates with the venues, I'd imagine.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
I have offered constructive criticism: competition. Why does 9:30 have exclusive agreements with Tickets.com and IMP with TicketMaster? No one has answered that question. Why shouldn't they compete with each other so consumers get the benefit of lower fees? These guys are making out like bandits, that's why.
Because it's no different than going into a restaurant that only serves Coke or Pepsi.
Your "logic" makes no sense.
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Precisely: It's NOT transparent. That's part of the problem. On their Web site, it suggests the $3.25 if for mailing. But when you call them up and ask them about it, they give you another story completely. And if you go back through this thread, you will see that I have never said that they shouldn't be making money or marking up. What I've said is that their fees are way unreasonable and people are getting ripped off because these are monopoly setups.
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because tickets.com and ticketmaster sign exclusive agreements with venues to be the seller... I.M.P. shows are done at venues other than the 9:30 club which fallen under ticketmaster. The 9:30 club can choose who to deal with. Once upon a time it was Protix (which became tickets.com),then Ticketmaster, then back to tickets.com.
Can you imagine the mass confusion there would be if two companies were selling tickets to events at the same time? Besides what interest would those companies have in competing over price...
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
And to reply to the "stamps don't affix themselves" argument, do you really think somebody at Tickets.com is sitting in a room putting stamps on these things?
In college i spent my summers doing that...yeah, it didn't give me any real world experience, but i got first dibs on tickets.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
and SFA's giving tickets away for people you signup on thier mailing list.
Woah, what is this?
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Precisely: It's NOT transparent. That's part of the problem. On their Web site, it suggests the $3.25 if for mailing. But when you call them up and ask them about it, they give you another story completely. And if you go back through this thread, you will see that I have never said that they shouldn't be making money or marking up. What I've said is that their fees are way unreasonable and people are getting ripped off because these are monopoly setups.
As I've said about 10 times, you need to consider the cost you're charged not versus the cost to tickets.com, but versus the cost it would cost you otherwise.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
On their Web site, it suggests the $3.25 if for mailing. But when you call them up and ask them about it, they give you another story completely.
When you call them, what do they claim the Delivery Fee is for, other than the cost of mailing tickets?
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<img src="http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/onion_news922.article.jpg" alt=" - " />
Take it up with this guy
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
No, Richmond. What I'm saying is that the fee is way too high, no matter how far you're coming. It costs them the same to mail a ticket to Richmond as it does to the apartment across the street from the 9:30 Club. But you're paying $3.25 for it. If that's OK with you, OK by me. But it's not OK with me.
Again, I'm not arguing that they have to mail at cost. But $3.25 is outrageous.
What I'm hearing you say, and correct me if I'm wrong, is as follows. If a show is base price $15, then $7.50 in charges is out of line because it's half the ticket price. However, you would be okay with paying $7.50 if the ticket was $30 or $50 or higher since the fee is less than %50 of the base ticket price?
I can see your point when the base price of a show is low and the fees are half of this low baseline. It doesn't make a show very cheap when the 'total' dollars are charged.
One resolution would be to lobby the organization that you feel is in the wrong for a system that charges a progressive service charge. That way, when you see a show that's 15 bucks, the service charge is low, say 2 bucks. Then when Good Charlotte rolls through or you want to attend or Gwen Stefani/Black Eyed Peas and ticket prices are $55 the service fee increases at a corresponding rate.
The underlying idea here is that we would of course avoid this trap because all the bands we like are too indie to charge a high baseline ticket price.
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Originally posted by This Is My Name:
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
and SFA's giving tickets away for people you signup on thier mailing list.
Woah, what is this? [/b]
check their official website...
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Coke and Pepsi? I really don't think that's an apt comparison. TicketMaster is hugely, hugely dominant in this field and Tickets.com would like to follow its monopolistic business model. TicketMaster has used its deep pockets to scare away most competitors, shutting down potential competition on the Internet, suing potential rivals, etc. The more apt comparison would be Coke vs. Vess Cola.
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That's it...
<img src="http://www.orlandoweekly.com/sb/26752/1107_comedy.jpg" alt=" - " />
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You must work for Tickets.com. If you don't want to participate, why are you here, idiot?
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
You must work for Tickets.com. If you don't want to participate, why are you here, idiot?
Yep, you found me out. Now aren't you jealous because I get all my tickets without added convenience fees? Mwhahahahahaha! <img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/19.gif" alt=" - " />
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Coke and Pepsi? I really don't think that's an apt comparison.
It's apt for the limited comparison we're making: they're rivals that make people sign exclusive contracts.
Oh, and tickets.com is pretty big in it's own right. MLB bought it/financial backs it.
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Well, thanks for the repartee everyone. I have to run. I'm off to the Nightclub 9:30 ticket window. The roundtrip Metro fare will be $2.70, plus $1 at the window. Hey, I'm saving nearly $4 off the Tickets.com price, and my dignity is intact -- at least until I get to the bar at club tonight. But that's a thread for another day.
Defending rock 'n' roll consumers everywhere, this is BoomBoom -- signing out.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Defending rock 'n' roll consumers everywhere, this is BoomBoom -- signing out.
Good night, and good luck.
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Your Son Volt show is $20, so why did you use $15 in your example? Hell, the average ticket price at 9:30 is well above $15, making it less of a ripoff.
Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Well, thanks for the repartee everyone. I have to run. I'm off to the Nightclub 9:30 ticket window. The roundtrip Metro fare will be $2.70, plus $1 at the window. Hey, I'm saving nearly $4 off the Tickets.com price, and my dignity is intact -- at least until I get to the bar at club tonight. But that's a thread for another day.
Defending rock 'n' roll consumers everywhere, this is BoomBoom -- signing out.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Good night, and good luck.
Seeing that movie tomorrow. :D
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for ordering tickets online or over the phone. But more than $7 on a $15 ticket is NOT a reasonable fee.
The one question I have is how the fees are set for each show. I just bought Ambulance Ltd tickets through Ticketmaster, and the fees were only $3.50 on a $10 ticket. I know, percentage-wise that's a big chunk, but sometimes a $12 ticket will come with $7 or more of fees. It's all so odd. I go to the clubs most of the time, but sometimes I just can't get by. So I PAY for the convenience of online shopping.
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
some people (myself not included, fortunately) can't go down to the club during its very limited box office hours and buy tickets.
Noon to 11:00 p.m. is limited? Dude, you're a busy guy (if you are a guy...).
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Originally posted by Bags:
So I PAY for the convenience of online shopping.
NO! You are paying for a stamp! Forget convenience! 32 cents! Focus only on that!!
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
Man, I would have thought their would have been fewer rah-rah capitalists in a rock club forum. What is the world coming to? Must be because it's D.C. -- conformist, conservative and comfortably smug. I'm sure that Tickets.com is lavishing huge salaries on its employees and paying them Cadillac benefits. C'mon -- these fees are lining the pockets of the execs and the club owners. Bottom line: they are not reasonable fees. They are a ripoff.
Now I think you're just trying to be an ass. Yeah, like telemarketers are always reaping in the cash hand over fist.
As to the lack of 'rah rah', we've been over this argument a hundred times on here. We've heard it all before, debated it all before, and realize that either it's important to us to go to shows so we get tickets whichever way we can, or we boycott. Some folks on here definitely buy fewer tickets and have said so. So far, no cause-and-effect surcharge price drops.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Cat's Cardle uses etix.com which costs $1/ticket, but there aren't really tickets, just massive will call lists/print outs.
Ugh, and how annoying is that. Bowery Ballroom does that, and you can't sell tickets you can't use. While it's good for scalping, a PAIN in the ASS if you just can't go to a show, but can only 'sell' your ticket if you show up.
See, no fee, no convenience.
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Some folks on here definitely buy fewer tickets and have said so.
shit, Mankie moved to Ireland rather than pay tickets.com convenuience fees....now THATS sticking to your principles :p
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Originally posted by Bags:
Originally posted by BoomBoom:
I don't mind paying a reasonable fee for ordering tickets online or over the phone. But more than $7 on a $15 ticket is NOT a reasonable fee.
The one question I have is how the fees are set for each show. I just bought Ambulance Ltd tickets through Ticketmaster, and the fees were only $3.50 on a $10 ticket. I know, percentage-wise that's a big chunk, but sometimes a $12 ticket will come with $7 or more of fees. It's all so odd. I go to the clubs most of the time, but sometimes I just can't get by. So I PAY for the convenience of online shopping. [/b]
I just want the Black cat to build a proper box office. Everytime I try and buy tickets, they act as if I'm asking them to complete a calculus test.
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Originally posted by MTB-Markie:
they add a $3.25 mailing fee which they charge you even if you Will Call tickets.
That I've never understood. It's just work for the CLUB to handle Will Call tix, not tickets.com or ticketbastard.
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Originally posted by Bags:
Originally posted by MTB-Markie:
they add a $3.25 mailing fee which they charge you even if you Will Call tickets.
That I've never understood. It's just work for the CLUB to handle Will Call tix, not tickets.com or ticketbastard. [/b]
Admittedly that sounds funny, but I'm sure the intended purpose is to have a certain fee per ticket, and a certain fee that's per order. It's all convenience, though.
I'll never understand people cutting off their own nose over disliking how things are labeled on an invoice, which is really what this is.
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Originally posted by Glass Arm Shattering:
I just want the Black cat to build a proper box office. Everytime I try and buy tickets, they act as if I'm asking them to complete a calculus test.
Yeah - That's annoying as hell. If I'm just buying one ticket, I'll just go to an outlet and pick it up. It's worth the $3.50 to not stand there for 10 minutes waiting for the guy to show up, or hoping they even remember to go get him.
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Originally posted by Xavier Bush, Power Forward:
they will never, ever question their beloved 9:30 Club. They will defend it, no matter how irrational their arguments are, or how incorrect the 9:30 Club might be. Some of them will even defend $15 for a cup of Yuengling.
That's because IT'S THE GREATEST CLUB IN THE WORLD. And y'all know I'm not being facetious. ;)
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Originally posted by Xavier Bush, Power Forward:
So how many Confederate Flags and lawn jockeys do you own? And did you stomp on anybody to get your pc?
Tickets.com mailing fee- $3.25
Rhett Miller's attempts at changing the fight- Priceless. [/b]
Shit that made me laugh...
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Originally posted by BoomBoom:
I have offered constructive criticism: competition. Why does 9:30 have exclusive agreements with Tickets.com and IMP with TicketMaster?
9:30 is the one that stepped up to support competition. It went with tickets.com, the ONLY entity posing competition to ticketmaster. You argue for EXACTLY what 9:30 did. It did it's best in trying to foster competition, which in the end didn't do much to change the fees, but there was an attempt.
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I'm clearly the only one still in my office on my computer on a Friday. I gotta get the hell out of here..... xo
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I think all of the complainers here just need to work harder to make more money so that you won't feel compelled to bitch about the small dollar stuff.
Also, I bought tickets from Strathmore Hall for the Ben Folds and Elvis Costello shows. There were no service charges at all and they have their own ticketing system. It was very efficient. The tickets, however, are ungodly expensive even without the service charges. So, back to the first point...make more $$$.
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So someone who became a teacher or social worker should have worked just a little harder and become a lawyer?
Originally posted by challenged:
I think all of the complainers here just need to work harder to make more money so that you won't feel compelled to bitch about the small dollar stuff.
Also, I bought tickets from Strathmore Hall for the Ben Folds and Elvis Costello shows. There were no service charges at all and they have their own ticketing system. It was very efficient. The tickets, however, are ungodly expensive even without the service charges. So, back to the first point...make more $$$.
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Not necessarily a lawyer, probably you could make more money in internetting, rock club owning, car selling, real estate investing, investment banking, software sales, and the like, but if you want to be able to afford to go to shows without complaining about the prices of services charges and such, it sounds like you need to find a way to make more money.
All that being said, I only sporadically pay service charges for 9:30/IMP shows by buying tickets at the venue or making other arrangements. Of the 3 shows I am attending/have attended this week (Vanderslice, U2, Death Cab), I only paid for U2 service charges, and those were reduced because I paid bono a fanclub fee of some sort.
Enjoy. Flame on Rhett.
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Some informational points:
1. Bands do participate in the ticket/convenience fees, most of them get a small kickback. It depends on the negotiating skills and relative industry power of the artist.
2. Ditto the venue. The 9:30 Club almost certainly gets a kickback on the fees from tickets.com. This all started a few years ago when tickets.com and Musictoday entered the business. New competition made it more difficult for Ticketmaster to retain accounts, so dealmaking with venues began (on the club level. It started much earlier with sheds, stadiums and amphitheaters).
3. Most service charges and convenience fees are a percentage of the ticket cost. It's not always rational.....does it cost more to ticket a $20 show than a $40 show? Not necessarily. But it's a business.....people who are willing to pay for $40 shows are willing to spend more money on many things. (generally speaking)
As everyone else said, there's a lot more to these fees than a stamp. There's the price of the enveleope, the labor involved in stuffing the envelope, the call center staff who have to take the calls from morons who "lost" their tickets or entered the wrong address when buying the tickets, and...on and on and on.
Are the fees too high in spite of all of the above? Yes. But the whole business model of the music industry is out of whack. It's a greedy, sexy business run by mostly idiots who just want to do blow and get laid. And if they can get rich while doing it, all the better. Steve Jobs is turning the business upside down, let's see if it has an overall effect to get pricing more in line with the value of the product.
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It's interesting that venues and promoters get the complaints ticket service fees, but not the artists themselves. Artists can take responsibility for such matters, for instance Eddie Izzard did an entire tour where the tickets sold through Ticketmaster didn't have service charges associated with them. So agreements can be reached...
As mentioned above bands have used other methods of selling tickets, bands could take the financial risk of handling all ticket sales.
The 9:30 club could also put a velvet rope out front and admit only those on the guestlist. Or thatguy could decide who he feels is worth of entering the club. Of course vansmack would not like that scenario one bit...
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
It's interesting that venues and promoters get the complaints ticket service fees, but not the artists themselves.
Exactly. I have so much more to say....but you it the nail on the head.
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Hey- I have 4 tickets that I posted on Ebay - turns out my husband is going to be out of town and my friends wimped out. Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6572501161... (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6572501161...)
Did I mention that my husband is going to be out of town?
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well, I wanted to see how this would run its' course without me, and it was fun, but here's my usual response to this stuff:
the bottom line is the bottom line - that is, add it all up and there's the price of your ticket...the only question left at that point is whether you want to pay that much to see that show
the problem we run into is that because the fees etc are broken down, people are able to pinpoint where some of that money goes and somehow feel they can make an argument for it
if the base ticket price were broken down into security/stagehands/band catering/insurance/band busses/band attorneys and the 50 other places that money goes, we'd have a topic thread for each, I guarantee you
total cost of ticket...that's all you need to think about, the same way you think about buying anything else
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Originally posted by The Walrus:
Did I mention that my husband is going to be out of town?
...I'll be right over! ;)
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
the bottom line is the bottom line - that is, add it all up and there's the price of your ticket...the only question left at that point is whether you want to pay that much to see that show
I don't disagree with you Seth, with one exception...the service charges should at least be relative to the actualy price of the ticket. If it's $6.50 service charge for a $30 ticket then is that concert worth $36.50? (plus the other bs charges of course but I'm just trying to make a point) But if an up and coming band are playing and it's a $10 ticket, then $6.50 makes a $16.50 ticket to check out a new band out of the question....that was the beginning of the end of me being a 3 night a week regular at the club.
That's my only beef with the whole ticket rip off discussion....oh, and the 'convenience' charge should be per transaction, not per ticket...you've not been 'convenienced' any more buying a single ticket or buying four, so why pay four times as much for the same 'convenience'?
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my biggest beef with the pricing has been the HUGE jump in base tix pricing this year; $40 min. to see the black crowes, pixies, kraftwerk, coldplay, etc....shows i saw at 4 different venues (3 in NC, kraftwerk at 930), where last year the cheapies for these shows seemed like it would have been $25-30. and those shows were all before gas prices (read: higher travel costs for bands) went towards the roof.
the extra surcharges were just adding insult to injury, and i have to agree with posters that say a surcharge/handling fee that's 25-50% of the tix price is out of hand. a $7.50 fee for a $15 show? -no thanks; those $40 shows i saw didn't even have fees that high!!
it's just the reality of the high costs of touring and biznesh that we're going to have to get used to. and, as many have noted, you just pick your battles one by one. i just go to less shows and try to find tix with a minimum surcharge. if i have to get tix online, i choose e-tix all the time now: it's usually the cheapest option, i can print them out right away, and i can reprint them should i 'lose' them, or e-mail a buddy's tix to them if we're going to meetup at a show.
re: "the cat's cardle", i'm assuming that this is Frank Heath's Chapel Hill club Cat's Cradle and not some local place (newbie here, still learning all the local spots). that was my local place to see shows for the last decade, and their e-tix are great. you don't wait in line for willcall and then again to get in; you just show up in the main line and you're in. frank also would have tix to their shows at indie record stores like CD Alley or Poindexters where there would be real tix (for the "i want my tix stub" crowd) and NO service charge that i recall.
i am sure that this discussion will continue to evolve as touring costs skyrocket, wages remain flat, and the economy worsens. alternatives to Ticketbastard will continue to emerge and many of the new models will adapt and incorporate user feedback to try to bring things in line for the lower/middle class show-goers. until then, we can just pick and choose which shows we can afford, continue to support the clubs and bands, and continue to voice concerns and alternatives to practices which can be seen as annoying/gouging. business models/practices will keep evolving, and so will the needed discussions about them.
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Originally posted by jeffnar:
frank also would have tix to their shows at indie record stores like CD Alley or Poindexters where there would be real tix (for the "i want my tix stub" crowd) and NO service charge that i recall.
Well to be fair though, the two members of the "we collect ticket stubs" club who were discussing Cat's Cradle live over 2 hours away, so this isn't really a viable option.
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Originally posted by jeffnar:
if i have to get tix online, i choose e-tix all the time now: it's usually the cheapest option,
If you're talking about TicketMaster's TicketFast option, that's not usually the cheapest way to go. They charge a few bucks for the .pdf tickets, but they'll snail-mail hard tickets at no extra cost.
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username edited wrote:
Well to be fair though, the two members of the "we collect ticket stubs" club who were discussing Cat's Cradle live over 2 hours away, so this isn't really a viable option.
i should have been more specific about where those cd stores were: chapel hill club having tix available at a Durham and Raleigh and Chapel Hill cd store, is like a DC club having tix available 15-30 miles away from the venue; definitely doable for the outlying fans. for someone living 2 hrs.+ away?!, ....uh, move!
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Originally posted by jeffnar:
i should have been more specific about where those cd stores were: chapel hill club having tix available at a Durham and Raleigh and Chapel Hill cd store, is like a DC club having tix available 15-30 miles away from the venue; definitely doable for the outlying fans. for someone living 2 hrs.+ away?!, ....uh, move!
i live approximately 2.5-3hrs from chapel hill and 1.5-2 hours from dc (depending on traffic). it makes it moderately 'easy' to go to shows at either place if i so choose (or both).
though i do plan on moving, living in between allows me basically equal opportunity to see shows at either/both places, something that living very close to one or the other wouldn't allow.
of course, if i lived in dc, philly/baltimore wouldn't be very far away for catching a second/other show.. but if i lived in chapel hill, what the hell is really "close" to there? atlanta is almost as far away from there as dc.
also, re: the ticket stubs. i said i like to have ticket stubs, but i wouldn't skip a show i wanted to go to just because i couldn't get a ticket stub. i've gone to a good number of shows where there weren't advance ticket sales and i've been to a few shows where i was guestlisted and never got stubs. i never said it was a requirement -- it's just nice to have, especially when buying the tickets in advance.
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Originally posted by Roadbike Mankie:
If it's $6.50 service charge for a $30 ticket then is that concert worth $36.50? (plus the other bs charges of course but I'm just trying to make a point)
and that's simply the question you need to answer for yourself...is that concert worth the total price per ticket?
deciphering which part goes to who doesn't change the answer to that question
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
Originally posted by Roadbike Mankie:
If it's $6.50 service charge for a $30 ticket then is that concert worth $36.50? (plus the other bs charges of course but I'm just trying to make a point)
and that's simply the question you need to answer for yourself...is that concert worth the total price per ticket?
deciphering which part goes to who doesn't change the answer to that question [/b]
Right....but my point is a band that can demand a $30 face value, will most probably be able to demand 21% more up to $36.50....but a band that can only demand a $10 face value will certainly not be able to draw in people to 'check them out' with a 65% service charge up to $16.50...so it's the up and coming bands, and the clubs who try to promote them that lose out in the long run, because people like myself, and quite a number of other board members going by the comments, have given up on going to the club to see what these new bands are all about.
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Originally posted by Roadbike Mankie:
because people like myself, and quite a number of other board members going by the comments, have given up on going to the club to see what these new bands are all about.
yeah, it really seems like 9:30 club is struggl-ING ... it's been just completely dead there the last few times i've been :roll:
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Originally posted by HoyaParanoia:
Originally posted by Roadbike Mankie:
because people like myself, and quite a number of other board members going by the comments, have given up on going to the club to see what these new bands are all about.
yeah, it really seems like 9:30 club is struggl-ING ... it's been just completely dead there the last few times i've been :roll: [/b]
That's not what I meant...but I don't see as many "blah blah blah is now sold out" as I used to...and I would guess the alcohol sales have declined in recent years.
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Five of the next seven shows are sold out. Including last night's and Sunday's shows, it would be seven of nine.