930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Sage 703 on August 22, 2005, 05:37:00 pm
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http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm (http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm)
Watch the video and read the accounts of those that were there. This seems pretty awful to me, and people should know about it.
SWAT and National Guard to shut down a concert? Regardless of whether or not they had a permit/insurance policy/drug issues, this is rather absurd.
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i like how RAVE is capitalized every time
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Yeah. Well, I also looked for this on more legitimate news sites (run a Google News search for "Utah Rave"). Police claim that they didn't have an appropriate permit. But really, watch the video. Its rather sickening.
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couldn't get the link on the video to work....
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try this one:
http://fatbaron.com/videos.html (http://fatbaron.com/videos.html)
i imagine that a lot of sites are getting overloaded.
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those worked thanks.
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I've seen worse.
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Weird to see guys in commando outfits to do police work. Just doesn't seem right.
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Originally posted by Sir HC:
Weird to see guys in commando outfits to do police work. Just doesn't seem right.
agreed.
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Originally posted by Sir HC:
Weird to see guys in commando outfits to do police work. Just doesn't seem right.
National Guard most likely...
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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National guard forces are notoriously bad at civilian crowd control. They're the ones who shot a bunch of kids at Kent State back in the 70s, after all. Calling them in for a rave is pretty stupid.
On the other hand... what do you expect in UTAH?
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More to the point, with most states National Guard troops overtaxed having to go to Iraq and Afghanistan, using them for something like this is a waste. State emergencies (Floods, tornados, and fires) are a good use, but as cops no way.
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Originally posted by Sir HC:
State emergencies (Floods, tornados, and fires) are a good use,
It was a RAVE, man, a RAVE! How much bigger of an emergency is there? No matter how motherfucking a flood is, you don't see it labeled FLOOD.
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So what exactly was wrong with that video? Looked like they did everything by the book to me. I didn't see any baton swinging or excessive force.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
So what exactly was wrong with that video? Looked like they did everything by the book to me. I didn't see any baton swinging or excessive force.
i didnt see the video but anytime a police officer kicks someone while they are on the ground, thats excessive force.
of course, Rob Gee is the militant guntoting republican on the board!
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Actually, I didn't see anyone get kicked, but the images were pretty dark so maybe I missed it. Otherwise, everything looked fine.
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how about the principle of using the national guard for this purpose?
i mean, could you imagine the national guard raiding the 9:30 Club or Nation?
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Originally posted by callat703:
how about the principle of using the national guard for this purpose?
i mean, could you imagine the national guard raiding the 9:30 Club or Nation?
which one raided nation a few years ago? d.c. police? in short, yes, i can see them raiding nation, but not 930, since it's a law-abiding establishment that wants to stay in business.
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I was at Nation the night the cops came in and shut the place down (the big one, i think they did it more than once)
they were very calm and orderly, no one freaked out and people just kinda left. we were more confused than anything.
either way, rave parties have this thing with them...anyone that used to go is mad as hell whenever one gets busted or something. Everyone who never went, doesnt get it and seems to think somehow the club or party promoters or attendees have dont this to themselves.
always has been this way, always will.
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I've never been to a rave. But I have been to plenty of rock festivals, and really, there isn't all that much difference. The same drugs, the same alcohol, and the same behavior for the most part. So I really don't have a hard time understanding the event.
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I believe back in the day at Nation, anyone who was a regular knew it was a matter of time before something like that happened. No, I never went there back then but I did hear what went on there from a few people. I think also why it happened was because it was military people who were involved in illegal activity. Military Personal + Illegal activity = Easy busts.
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Originally posted by callat703:
I've never been to a rave. But I have been to plenty of rock festivals, and really, there isn't all that much difference. The same drugs, the same alcohol, and the same behavior for the most part. So I really don't have a hard time understanding the event.
if you've never been to a rave, then how do you know what goes on at a rave is/isn't worthy of a police crackdown? i can assure you that your generalizations listed above are wrong.
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Originally posted by callat703:
I've never been to a rave. But I have been to plenty of rock festivals, and really, there isn't all that much difference. The same drugs, the same alcohol, and the same behavior for the most part. So I really don't have a hard time understanding the event.
Except rock festivals hire security, secure the proper permits, and make the area safe.
Most rave's are done ad hoc, under the radar, without proper permits and attention to security (like proper lighting and crowd control).
All I saw on the video was a dog going after a kid that prompted an arrest. What do you want to bet the dog sniffed out drugs?
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Originally posted by Sir HC:
Weird to see guys in commando outfits to do police work. Just doesn't seem right.
There is a possibilty that the rave was held on Federal or State land and the National Guard had the jurisdiction for that land.
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if you keep clicking links, you find out that its private land, the national guard has raided nonRAVE parties on this land before, they had a permit, and $2 million insurance policy. also they had security that searched everyone and confiscated illegal stuff. but really, they promoters deserve a beat down for trying to have fun in utah. move to california, ya hippies
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two things:
you don't have to attend something to have an understanding of what goes on. i'm acknowledging that raves have all of the problems that are associated with them - I don't have to go to one to know that there is a lot of ecstasy, coke, alcohol, other drugs, whatever. but again, I ask you, how is this any different from a rock festival? or how about all of the jam band scene? You mean to tell me that there are more drugs at an event like this than at Bonnaroo? That's just ignorant.
i can assure you that your generalizations listed above are wrong.
why? how? where?
point two:
i'm speaking with the understanding that this event: a) hired security, b) had the necessary permits and was held on private land, and c) had an insurance policy, sold tickets, and otherwise operated as a legit, planned event (unlike most raves that are held underground and announced last minute). My understanding of the event is that is was more "event" than "rave" - perhaps the problem is the language that we're using.
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oh, and I never said that it wasn't worthy of police crackdown - any time you've got that kind of event, it sort of begs for police sting. But I definitely question the means and methods that were used in this instance.
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Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
if you keep clicking links, you find out that its private land, the national guard has raided nonRAVE parties on this land before, they had a permit, and $2 million insurance policy. also they had security that searched everyone and confiscated illegal stuff. but really, they promoters deserve a beat down for trying to have fun in utah. move to california, ya hippies
You're point on Utah is well taken - that was their first mistake.
Still not sure about the land issue, but no major news outlet has changed it's story about the insurance bond and the permit. I'm sure the news outlets would love to pump a lie up, but it the story doesn't seem to be changing.
In addition, most of the 60 arrests were for illegal activity that the "security" must have missed.
Article Last Updated: 8/23/2005 10:59 AM
Police raid rave party in Spanish Fork Canyon
Party's over: 90 officers from several agencies cite 60 at the event, which had more than 400 people in attendance
By Michael N. Westley
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune
About 60 people were arrested Saturday night when police officers busted an illegal rave in Spanish Fork Canyon.
Those arrested were cited on a variety of charges including the possession of illegal narcotics, weapons violations, DUI, illegal consumption of alcohol by a minor, disorderly conduct, assaulting a police officer and drug distribution.
The youngest of those cited was 15 years old, said Utah County Sheriff's Sgt. Dan Gilbert.
Police in Utah County have monitored several raves this summer and have grown increasingly concerned about their legality and safety, Gilbert said. When detectives got word that another party was planned for Saturday, they set to work to make sure they got their point across that such activity was not welcome in their area.
"The Sheriff's Office will investigate and look into and find an illegal mass gathering going on, we will take the appropriate action to stop the party at that time," Gilbert said.
Investigators learned that no permit had been requested for a mass gathering which requires a bond and Utah County Commission approval for groups larger than 250, said Gilbert. Police learned around noon Saturday that the rave would be held in the Diamond Fork area of Spanish Fork Canyon and assembled about 90 officers from several agencies to enforce crowd control.
Undercover officers filtered into the party when the doors opened about 9 p.m. By 11:30 p.m. police confirmed that more than 250 people were in attendance and stormed the party. During their two hours at the DJ-driven dance party, undercover officers had observed a multitude of illegal activities including the sale and consumption of drugs such as cocaine, ecstacy, alcohol, methamphetamine and marijuana.
"The sale of drugs at these parties is so prevalent that at this particular rave party, drugs were offered to local off-duty emergency medical service personnel who were contracted to be there," Gilbert said.
A 17-year-old West Jordan girl overdosed on ecstasy, police said. Most of the participants were between 15 and 30 years old and were from Spanish Fork, Springville, Provo, Payson, as well as Davis and Salt Lake counties, Gilbert said. Two security guards hired by the promotor were arrested for the possession of cocaine and ecstasy and Spanish Fork police made two DUI arrests as partyers drove out of the canyon, he said.
Most of the 400 or so ravers left peacefully.
But others were detained if they had been seen doing something illegal or showed visible signs of impairment, said Gilbert.
In a sweep of the area after the crowd had been controlled, which one raver said was executed with unnecessary force, police found a plethora of drugs and drug paraphernalia scattered on the ground, Gilbert said.
Brett George told Fox News 13 that officers stormed the party and treated attendees unfairly, including beating one man that was trying to film the bust with a video camera.
Police want parents of teenagers to know the dangers of illegal, clandestine rave parties. Gilbert said that in addition to heavy drug use, raves attract sexual assaults, violence, theft and promote unsafe driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
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Originally posted by callat703:
two things:
you don't have to attend something to have an understanding of what goes on. i'm acknowledging that raves have all of the problems that are associated with them - I don't have to go to one to know that there is a lot of ecstasy, coke, alcohol, other drugs, whatever. but again, I ask you, how is this any different from a rock festival? or how about all of the jam band scene? You mean to tell me that there are more drugs at an event like this than at Bonnaroo? That's just ignorant.
i can assure you that your generalizations listed above are wrong.
why? how? where?
[/b]
well, i can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that a) rock festivals are held at places designed for such events, be it an ampitheatre and such. therefore, in order to play at said venue, you go through a promoter and use their legal team to make sure that what you want to promote fits within a legal regulatory framework; b) ok. . .just because both are events are where drugs are used, does not mean that you are using the same drugs for the same purposes. this is the 'oughts, where every drug serves a purpose. for raves, x is used so that you can go all trippy, feel the pulsating beats and dance and enjoy the community and people around you- rock festivals, you either drink a lot of beer, try to mosh with the other drunks or get into fights. plus, the music industry and business have too much to lose for a large event (like a rock festival) to be shut down by the local authorities. the point is- yes, both places are where drugs are used, but rock festivals are done in locations that are used for said events, are done in concert with the local authorities, have large amount of money from record labels and execs., and generally have the means to pull such an event off.
as for jam bands, i don't think many people here would lose any sleep if the govt. wanted to shut that scene down. :)
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"In a sweep of the area after the crowd had been controlled, which one raver said was executed with unnecessary force"
Of course they did, take another pill buddy :roll:
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haha, yeah. I suppose this is my hippie background coming out - all of those festivals are done in locations that aren't designed for music either.
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Originally posted by callat703:
I've never been to a rave. But I have been to plenty of rock festivals, and really, there isn't all that much difference. The same drugs, the same alcohol, and the same behavior for the most part. So I really don't have a hard time understanding the event.
so then why do you suppose raves get busted much more often than rock concerts?
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Most rave's are done ad hoc, under the radar, without proper permits and attention to security (like proper lighting and crowd control).
correction: most raves that get busted are done ad hoc, under the radar, without proper permits and attention to security (like proper lighting and crowd control).
when i was going to these things, until 1995 or so , none of them were legal, but after that, the ones with permits rarely ever got shut down.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee:
Of course they did, take another pill buddy :roll:
dont be so closed minded, rob. it makes you look stupid.
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Originally posted by callat703:
you don't have to attend something to have an understanding of what goes on.
as long as you dont mind having a not very good understanding of what goes on.
besides, theres just as much weed and speed at your local high school as there is at the RAVE.
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as long as you dont mind having a not very good understanding of what goes on.
again, I think you're missing my point. I'm defending raves as being just another music event. Ones operated illicitly are going to get busted, just like a house party with a band that is too loud or any other event that is operated illicitly. Ones with the right permit and license should be allowed to continue just as any other event would, with the same kind of security and police presence that would be warranted at any other event of comparable size.
And again, I'm waiting for somebody to tell me where my understanding is flawed. I've been to plenty of music events that aren't raves - primarily in the jam band scene - that have a lot of people taking drugs or alcohol for the same reason that they take them at a rave - to further enjoy the music, to become physically involved in the music that is happening, to heighten sensitivity to light, etc. What is so significantly different that is causing me to have a mistaken understanding?
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They were wearing their ballcaps backwards and askew. It wasn't the National Guard...it was the fashion police.
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
as for jam bands, i don't think many people here would lose any sleep if the govt. wanted to shut that scene down. :)
thats the reason RAVEs get busted!!! you hit the nail on the head.
because even though the promoters and everyone involved made all the proper arrangements for lighting, security, insurance etc... these promoters were basically loners and not paying greasing anyones palms. they werent active members in the community, didnt donate to charity, they probably didnt know people in city council, so therefore, shutting them down didnt piss anyone off but the people attending the party!!! it made the cops look good and the people there look bad. perfect situation.
now if some big company sponsers a RAVE, do you think it gets shut down???? nada. cause said company doesnt need that bad publicity and the cops know damn well they would get some kind of crazy lawsuit and be dragged through the dirt if they tried to raid the Sony Playstation Rave.
its not about music, or drugs or permits or anything else. its about politics and power and if the RAVERS werent listening to weird music and doing crazy drugs, the police would just find some other reason to bust down the door.
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Originally posted by callat703:
the jam band scene -
no one i know that has participated in both raves and jam bands has ever likened them to one another.
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Originally posted by callat703:
What is so significantly different that is causing me to have a mistaken understanding?
Perhaps the greater number of minors at raves.
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
correction: most raves that get busted are done ad hoc, under the radar, without proper permits and attention to security (like proper lighting and crowd control).
when i was going to these things, until 1995 or so , none of them were legal, but after that, the ones with permits rarely ever got shut down.
True, but they are still ad hoc, in a business sense. Even the legal raves couldn't sustain the business model that supports the 9:30, for example, because they don't go the extra mile to build a reputation in the community.
But then again, that was never the point of a rave to begin with.
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by callat703:
What is so significantly different that is causing me to have a mistaken understanding?
Perhaps the greater number of minors at raves. [/b]
than at a rock concert?
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Originally posted by callat703:
What is so significantly different that is causing me to have a mistaken understanding?
Perhaps the greater number of minors at raves. [/b]
than at a rock concert? [/b]
Than at a jam band festival.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
because they don't go the extra mile to build a reputation in the community.
But then again, that was never the point of a rave to begin with.
correct. thats what i said in my more later post. its the frustration one has when you try to break the mold of society and get kicked in the head for it.
as far as i am concerned, its cool. I was at the right age to begin going to raves when they were tiny little 50 person gatherings and watched them turn into huge parties.....we were waving our middle fingers in the air of authority the whole time and sooner or later they came and stopped us. we all knew it was going to happen and i dont think anyone that was going to these things for 5-10 years was shocked OR mad so much when shit started hitting the fan.
i certainly didnt.
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Ravers are nothing more than a bunch of adolescents looking for an excuse to get fucked up on some drugs and get laid. Ravers are no different than the new age "Deadheads" (or pardon me, "Phish-heads") that wander around America for the exact same things...sex and drugs! But instead of nasty hippie chicks putting out for weed, it's now nasty-assed rave girls (or guys, I-Mockery should be should be fair) putting out for ecstasy and K! (http://www.i-mockery.com/antirave/faq.php)
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
correct. thats what i said in my more later post. its the frustration one has when you try to break the mold of society and get kicked in the head for it.
Sorry, you posted like 6 in a row and I have a two in a row read limit unless a day has passed.
Venerable and I had a similar conversation off line comparing our rave experiences from the early 90's (since you're Canadian, you can use your late 90's experiences). His were from SF and mine were LA and we noted the feel good/charitable aspect of the rave seen in SF as opposed to the ridiculous pure party aspect of the LA rave scene. Both had their time and their place for some folks, and now I guess those rowdy white kids in Utah are having their say.
But to argue that there was use of excessive force here is a bit ridiculous in this instance. Perhaps an excessive show of force by calling the fully dressed National Guard in, but showing and acting are two different things. That's all we were getting at.
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Originally posted by callat703:
And again, I'm waiting for somebody to tell me where my understanding is flawed. I've been to plenty of music events that aren't raves - primarily in the jam band scene - that have a lot of people taking drugs or alcohol for the same reason that they take them at a rave - to further enjoy the music, to become physically involved in the music that is happening, to heighten sensitivity to light, etc. What is so significantly different that is causing me to have a mistaken understanding?
The difference is most of the people at Jam Band festivals are trustfund babies, with lots of money and keep things low-key under the radar. Raves are primarily younger kids and not the brightest to keep their mouth shut about a good thing. Instead they're all about bragging about the drugs they've got, etc.
Look at the big "rave" that Ultraworld put on just a year ago at the DC Armory. That had a bust that made the news but the event didn't get shutdown and that was on Fed. gov't property. People who do legit "raves" are smart enough to make sure everything else is to a T when it comes to keeping the event properly legal to their fullest extent. Can't expect them to do a full body search of everyone walking in the door looking for where they've stuck drugs in any open orifice.
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
than at a rock concert?
Warped Tour isn't a rock concert. It's attack of the clones and dudes in chick pants confused about life.
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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Originally posted by MindCage:
People who do legit "raves" are smart enough to make sure everything else is to a T when it comes to keeping the event properly legal to their fullest extent. Can't expect them to do a full body search of everyone walking in the door looking for where they've stuck drugs in any open orifice.
Can we expect legit raves to hire security staff that do not possess drugs?
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Can we expect legit raves to hire security staff that do not possess drugs?
Not saying right or wrong, but what the media is printing as "posessing" drugs by security could very well have been confiscated and just not thrown out yet so it was "in their possession" to make the situation look worse.
In the real world, any security person working at any bar, nightclub, concert venue, makes the decision to either keep or throw out drugs that they confiscate. Unless you're hiring full blown security on a military level with security clearance that will have to take a drug and lie detector test before and after, you'll never know what to expect out of hired help, even if it's the local police force.
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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Originally posted by MindCage:
In the real world, any security person working at any bar, nightclub, concert venue, makes the decision to either keep or throw out drugs that they confiscate.
This statement is so utterly ridiculous that I'll let Staph respond. I don't want to mis-state club policy, but I'll put money that there is a policy at the 9:30 about what to do with confiscated drugs. At legit venues, the decision is already made for you by terms of your employment.
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That is terrible!
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Venerable and I had a similar conversation off line comparing our rave experiences from the early 90's (since you're Canadian, you can use your late 90's experiences).
whats that supposed to mean???? the first rave-party i went to was in 1992. and some of the biggest east coast parties happened in Montreal and Boston back then. Plus, we were a day trip from Detroit. and i drove to a party there the day i got my drivers license :)
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
the first rave-party i went to was in 1992. and some of the biggest east coast parties happened in Montreal and Boston back then. Plus, we were a day trip from Detroit. and i drove to a party there the day i got my drivers license :)
Here's a picture of Sonickteam4 to prove it:
<img src="http://www.edge-inc.net/images/humor/priceless/pricerave.jpg" alt=" - " />
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now now
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by MindCage:
In the real world, any security person working at any bar, nightclub, concert venue, makes the decision to either keep or throw out drugs that they confiscate.
This statement is so utterly ridiculous that I'll let Staph respond. I don't want to mis-state club policy, but I'll put money that there is a policy at the 9:30 about what to do with confiscated drugs. At legit venues, the decision is already made for you by terms of your employment. [/b]
Not really, it's call a conscience. Even at legit venues you can't fully control people based off what they've agreed to or policies in place. Same can be said for a law officer who has sworn under oath.
MindCage
Mindless Faith (http://www.mindlessfaith.com)
Deep6 Productions (http://www.deep6.com)
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Originally posted by MindCage:
Not really, it's call a conscience. Even at legit venues you can't fully control people based off what they've agreed to or policies in place. Same can be said for a law officer who has sworn under oath.
This goes back to the legitimacy vs. ad hoc approach of the rave scene. They don't hire established security companies, they hire their buddies or "companies" with less integrity. There's no rigorous checks and because who knows when the next rave is going be, these security guys have nothing to lose by keeping confiscated drugs.
While I agree that it's nearly impossible to be 100% certain that the people you hire will abide by the rules the owner or principal has mandated, there are many checks and processes that can be put into place to minimize the risks - and I'm certain more established businesses go that extra step to make certain the risks that security has to minimize, including their own. And some places, like 9:30, do a fantastic job of this. Others do not and you don't see their establishments/ventures last as long.
My biggest problem with the rave scene was not the illicit use of drugs, it was the lack of protection of the women at these events. That's why I stopped going. And to read that security are being arrested for possession of cocaine only furthers my concern.
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
whats that supposed to mean????
Just picking on your mullet. That's all.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by sonickteam4:
whats that supposed to mean????
Just picking on your mullet. That's all. [/b]
just for that, I am routing for the Orioles at the game tonight. and i was even going to let my GF bring her rally monkey.......
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
just for that, I am routing for the Orioles at the game tonight.
routing? is that a canadian phonetic spelling? in which case, i too will be routing for the o's against the angels.
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by sonickteam4:
just for that, I am routing for the Orioles at the game tonight.
routing? is that a canadian phonetic spelling? in which case, i too will be routing for the o's against the angels. [/b]
:mad: and i will be for the O's this weekend too!!!
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
just for that, I am routing for the Orioles at the game tonight. and i was even going to let my GF bring her rally monkey.......
Great ball park - wish I could be there. I remember when I lived there that the Halo's almost never lost, but the exact day I moved out West, the Halo's started a four game series at Camdem and were swept. I still feel a little guilty about that.
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Originally posted by sonickteam4:
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by sonickteam4:
just for that, I am routing for the Orioles at the game tonight.
routing? is that a canadian phonetic spelling? in which case, i too will be routing for the o's against the angels. [/b]
:mad: and i will be for the O's this weekend too!!! [/b]
sounds like a perfect opportunity to break out my new harden t-shirt. plus, need to check out byrnes' ride.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
I don't want to mis-state club policy, but I'll put money that there is a policy at the 9:30 about what to do with confiscated drugs.
all confiscated drugs or paraphernalia are turned over to the crew chief or manager on duty. they are then destroyed or turned over to the police. it's really not worth the risk to do anything else.