930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: bellenseb on October 27, 2005, 03:09:00 pm
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DCist has an interesting round-table chat (http://www.dcist.com/archives/2005/10/27/music_roundtable_high_fidelity_edition.php) going.
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Interesting concept: Ask musicians why record stores in DC aren't working out.
I think I'd rather hear from the record store owners and other folks familiar with the business landscape in the area.
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If the record store owners had the right answers, wouldn't they be applying them?
Originally posted by vansmack:
Interesting concept: Ask musicians why record stores in DC aren't working out.
I think I'd rather hear from the record store owners and other folks familiar with the business landscape in the area.
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
If the record store owners had the right answers, wouldn't they be applying them?
That is assuming that the problems have a solution.
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
If the record store owners had the right answers, wouldn't they be applying them?
They don't have to be local record store owners.
Why not ask the guys at Amoeba why Amoeba can/cannot be recreated in DC? Now that I would read.(c)
I just copyrighted my idea so you lurkers at DCist must come up with your own idea. And try to make it a good one.
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Look at Soundgarden. It is thriving in Baltimore so why not DC?
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To rent commercial space the size of the Soundgarden in a DC neighborhood the equivalent of Fells Point (Adams-Morgan?) would be much more costly.
Originally posted by Sir HC:
Look at Soundgarden. It is thriving in Baltimore so why not DC?
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
To rent commercial space the size of the Soundgarden in a DC neighborhood the equivalent of Fells Point (Adams-Morgan?) would be much more costly.
Right, because real estate in the Haight is so cheap. Have you seen the size of the Amoeba in SF?
It's doable if you can sell enough volume.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
If the record store owners had the right answers, wouldn't they be applying them?
They don't have to be local record store owners.
Why not ask the guys at Amoeba why Amoeba can/cannot be recreated in DC? Now that I would read.(c)
>>For Gods sake! Please quit mentioning Amoeba! It's gonna be till next spring or summer till I make it out to Cali and I get to spend countless hours in the Haight location! I'm chomping at the bit,man......
I just copyrighted my idea so you lurkers at DCist must come up with your own idea. And try to make it a good one. [/b]
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Do they own the store or do the rent the property?
I wonder how much of Amoeba's sales are from out of towners? Hip, music loving types visit San Francisco for vacation and make a pilgrimage to Amoeba. Hip, music loving people generally don't vacation in DC; we get the fat flag wavers from Nebraska. For that matter, hip people in general don't move to DC.
Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
To rent commercial space the size of the Soundgarden in a DC neighborhood the equivalent of Fells Point (Adams-Morgan?) would be much more costly.
Right, because real estate in the Haight is so cheap. Have you seen the size of the Amoeba in SF?
It's doable if you can sell enough volume. [/b]
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
Do they own the store or do the rent the property?
I wonder how much of Amoeba's sales are from out of towners?
I don't know, why don't we ask them? But it goes back to my original point in this thread.
Why is DCist asking local musicians about a problem they likely know little about when they should be asking people who may have solutions to the problem?
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Why do we have to go to SF to see a viable indie store to model? Plan 9 in Richmond and Charlottesville have succeeded in much less "hip" locales then DC.
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Originally posted by Jonas Grumby:
For Gods sake! Please quit mentioning Amoeba! It's gonna be till next spring or summer till I make it out to Cali and I get to spend countless hours in the Haight location! I'm chomping at the bit,man......
Sorry Jonas.
Reminds me of my next idea. Amoeba orders delivered to DC by yours truly....I'm not there yet, but I'm thinking about a way to make it work.
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Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Why do we have to go to SF to see a viable indie store to model? Plan 9 in Richmond and Charlottesville have succeeded in much less "hip" locales then DC.
Because, as Rhett pointed out, the rent is comparable, and I'm guessing that's the biggest expense for any indie store in DC.
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Well Charlottesville, with its student population, no doubt has a more voracious music buying public. I think that many people typically buy most of their cd's by the time that they are 25, and gradually lose interest in music and buying cd's.
Richmond? Again, I'm willing to wager they need not do a huge volume, ala Amoeba, because of low rents.
I bet Richmond Plan 9 does significantly less business than Soundgarden.
Originally posted by [username edited by p.c. moderator]:
Why do we have to go to SF to see a viable indie store to model? Plan 9 in Richmond and Charlottesville have succeeded in much less "hip" locales then DC.
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Judging by all the underprivileged punk kids sitting on Haight hassling me for spare change last week, I'm not sure the Haight is such a high-rent district.
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there was a half a dozen good used/independant record stores in pittsburgh. severly less hip than dc, and no one visits there unless they were from there.
i don't buy the rent issue either. other expensive cities have nice record stores. i was really disappointed by the stores when i moved here
edit: there are alot of college kids in the area here too. no good record store in (for example) tenleytown. i'd go there every now and again
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Hipster city slickers love shit like that. Makes them feel like their living the real gritty city life. Having those kids around won't hurt rent prices at all.
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Judging by all the underprivileged punk kids sitting on Haight hassling me for spare change last week, I'm not sure the Haight is such a high-rent district.
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Basically, what I'm saying is you either need:
1. Low Rents
2. Hip Population
You need not have both. You must have one. DC has neither.
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
there was a half a dozen good used/independant record stores in pittsburgh. severly less hip than dc, and no one visits there unless they were from there.
i don't buy the rent issue either. other expensive cities have nice record stores. i was really disappointed by the stores when i moved here
edit: there are alot of college kids in the area here too. no good record store in (for example) tenleytown. i'd go there every now and again
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boston has a comparable population and better record stores. quite high rent too
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
I bet Richmond Plan 9 does significantly less business than Soundgarden.
I cannot speak on the topic knowledgably. They do what appears to be a phenomenal business, always a line to get to a register, and they've been in business for quite some time.
They do probably have relatively low rent, however.
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I can't speak knowledgably on this. I haven't been to Boston in 10 years. Ten years ago, their cd stores didn't impress me. Does Boston have an equivalent to Soundgarden or Amoeba or Everyday Music in Seattle?
I guess it really depends on what type of stores you're into. Personally, I'm into used cd's and bargain bin cd's. Soundgarden satisfies the former, CD Cellar and CD Game Exchange satisfy the latter. Amoeba would satisfy both. The stores in NYC would satisfy neither. I don't really have much use for niche oriented indie stores with new releases, so I don't really have that many complaints about local cd stores.
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
boston has a comparable population and better record stores. quite high rent too
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
I can't speak knowledgably
We've noticed.
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
Hipster city slickers love shit like that. Makes them feel like their living the real gritty city life.
Absolutely true...I'm loving the current crime spree in Logan Circle. Armed robberies on the street in the light of day as well as at night...now I know I'm living the real city life. I'm so cool!!!!!
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Much like gutter punks to city hipsters, Rhett's lawn makes him feel like he's living the country life.
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Underprivileged punk kids in Logan Circle?
Originally posted by Bags:
Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
Hipster city slickers love shit like that. Makes them feel like their living the real gritty city life.
Absolutely true...I'm loving the current crime spree in Logan Circle. Armed robberies on the street in the light of day as well as at night...now I know I'm living the real city life. I'm so cool!!!!! [/b]
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
I can't speak knowledgably on this. I haven't been to Boston in 10 years. Ten years ago, their cd stores didn't impress me. Does Boston have an equivalent to Soundgarden or Amoeba or Everyday Music in Seattle?
I guess it really depends on what type of stores you're into. Personally, I'm into used cd's and bargain bin cd's. Soundgarden satisfies the former, CD Cellar and CD Game Exchange satisfy the latter. Amoeba would satisfy both. The stores in NYC would satisfy neither. I don't really have much use for niche oriented indie stores with new releases, so I don't really have that many complaints about local cd stores.
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
boston has a comparable population and better record stores. quite high rent too
[/b]
didn't you mention newbury comics in this post originally?
i haven't been to boston in awhile either, but i've hear people from there that live in this area complain about how much better the cd stores are up there
if your happy with the status quo, i'm not sure what you're really driving at, though
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Does Newbury Comics have a good used cd selection? If not, what's the point. Might as well buy online.
I do find the status quo acceptable for my own needs. The arguments I were previously making were prefaced on displeasure with the DC cd store situation. Not saying that I share that displeasure, just pointing out potential causes of the problem if one were to see it as a problem.
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
I can't speak knowledgably on this. I haven't been to Boston in 10 years. Ten years ago, their cd stores didn't impress me. Does Boston have an equivalent to Soundgarden or Amoeba or Everyday Music in Seattle?
I guess it really depends on what type of stores you're into. Personally, I'm into used cd's and bargain bin cd's. Soundgarden satisfies the former, CD Cellar and CD Game Exchange satisfy the latter. Amoeba would satisfy both. The stores in NYC would satisfy neither. I don't really have much use for niche oriented indie stores with new releases, so I don't really have that many complaints about local cd stores.
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
boston has a comparable population and better record stores. quite high rent too
[/b]
didn't you mention newbury comics in this post originally?
i haven't been to boston in awhile either, but i've hear people from there that live in this area complain about how much better the cd stores are up there
if your happy with the status quo, i'm not sure what you're really driving at, though [/b]
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by Jonas Grumby:
[qb]
Reminds me of my next idea. Amoeba orders delivered to DC by yours truly....I'm not there yet, but I'm thinking about a way to make it work. [/b]
will you show up in a g-string?
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Originally posted by Celeste:
will you show up in a g-string?
Only for you, and it will cost extra.
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Originally posted by Earl Blanton Jr., Late Model Champ:
Basically, what I'm saying is you either need:
1. Low Rents
2. Hip Population
You need not have both. You must have one. DC has neither.
The Detroit area certainly has Low Rents and the Hip Population is debatable, but they certainly do know how to rock in that city. It has better record stores than the DC area, nothing on the scale of Amobea.
Tower Records has a inventory of new stuff that can rival the LA Amobea, it's a shame thier prices are so high in comparsion and they don't deal in used.
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Massachussetts has Newbury Comics which they have franchised throughout the state. The flagship store in Boston isn't really that cool. The stores all remind me of a hastily assembled, overly-corporate combination of the modern Commander Salamander and SMASH. They took all of the annoying elements and combined them into one shop. They sell lots Doc Martens, Manic Panic, overpriced comics/dvd's, and Operation Ivy t-shirts to the overprivileged, wannabee punks. That's the closest thing that I could find in Boston resembling a cool record store.
As for the Amoeba situation, there's absolutely no such thing as low rent in SF, which rivals only NYC as the most expensive city in the country. I bet they got a long term lease or bought their turf in the Haight and Berkeley years before the Bay Area went through the tech boom. The kids who live outside the store begging for change and burritos are all rich and hate their parents. They make great coin from passersby on that corner doing their thing.
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Originally posted by frenchpiece:
Massachussetts has Newbury Comics which they have franchised throughout the state. The flagship store in Boston isn't really that cool. The stores all remind me of a hastily assembled, overly-corporate combination of the modern Commander Salamander and SMASH. They took all of the annoying elements and combined them into one shop. They sell lots Doc Martens, Manic Panic, overpriced comics/dvd's, and Operation Ivy t-shirts to the overprivileged, wannabee punks. That's the closest thing that I could find in Boston resembling a cool record store.
Yea, but back in the day, Newbury Comics was THE place in Boston to hang out and find music. It was a little hole in the wall and every time I went in there I saw musicians flipping through the bins or talking to the clerks or just being in the scene. Newbury Comics WAS the scene in Boston. We went there to find good music, new music, hard-to-find stuff.
And then they expanded, into what you described above. Sigh. I'm becomng my parents, clearly, reminiscing about the good 'ole days WAY too often.
Anyway, I used to see Aimee Mann in Newbury Comics all the time. Remember the Voices Carry video? That is how she dressed regularly.
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I have good luck at Orpheus.
The only problem is that it isn't really a browsing store. You often have to know what you're looking for because it's invariably in a box in the back, at the bottom of a giant stack in the corner, or in that one section on the top shelf that you can't read without binoculars.
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I know how much you guys like my stories, so here's one.
I was in Newbury Comics one time and Ric Ocasek was right in front of me in line. He bought about $120 worth of swag, including albums by Madonna, Social Disortion, Sonic Youth, and others I don't remember. I was close enough to him to see that the name on his credit card was Richard Otcasek. (He dropped the "t" and Benjamin Orzechowski changed his name to Orr.)
Oddly enough, that was the second run-in I'd had with Ocasek; I once saw him walking down the street in NYC.
You just don't have sightings like that here in DC...though I once saw a bloated Jerry Lewis getting out of a limo on Connecticut Ave.
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Originally posted by Etan de Balzac, Footie Ball Player:
You just don't have sightings like that here in DC...though I once saw a bloated Jerry Lewis getting out of a limo on Connecticut Ave.
i saw mario lemieux on a dc street corner once, and he asked me for directions to the men's wearhouse.
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Originally posted by frenchpiece:
As for the Amoeba situation, there's absolutely no such thing as low rent in SF, which rivals only NYC as the most expensive city in the country. I bet they got a long term lease or bought their turf in the Haight and Berkeley years before the Bay Area went through the tech boom.
if i remember correctly, amoeba's s.f. location didn't open until the late 90s or even 2000-2001 (heck, their berkeley store didn't open until 1990). i'm sure smackie or xneverwherex should be able to confirm or deny that. all i know is that when i go home i used to only go to streetlight records, now i drive to san francisco to go to amoeba. course, streetlight is still a good store, but it's stuck having it's largest and best store in san jose.
edited to add- amoeba in s.f. was opened in 1998.
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http://www.amoebamusic.com/html/modules.php?name=Amoeba_About&op=amoeba-who (http://www.amoebamusic.com/html/modules.php?name=Amoeba_About&op=amoeba-who)
Amoeba SF opened in November 1997. My first visit was in the summer of 1998.
Click on the "The World's Greatest Record Store?" link at the bottom of the page for more details from the RS article.
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
i saw mario lemieux on a dc street corner once, and he asked me for directions to the men's wearhouse.
You'd think mario could afford better quality clothes..?
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
Originally posted by Etan de Balzac, Footie Ball Player:
You just don't have sightings like that here in DC...though I once saw a bloated Jerry Lewis getting out of a limo on Connecticut Ave.
i saw mario lemieux on a dc street corner once, and he asked me for directions to the men's wearhouse. [/b]
i once saw mario in a swanky suburban restraunt. he had about 20 people (family most likely) at his table. my brother was 8, mario waved, everyone was happy
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I met JC Chasez at Coachella 2005. He had a huge bodyguard with him to protect him from the throngs of humans who were dying to get his autograph. He walked through the crowd like the Hollywood whore that he is because he needed the attention, so I talked to him because I wanted a picture for my B-List Celebrity Hall of Fame.
The only other celebrity that I have seen who was sadder was Florence Henderson (Mrs. Brady), who set up a table and sat facing the door with her five friends in the entrance of an empty memorablia shop at Universal Studios in the middle of March 1998, praying for people to notice her.
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Gwyneth Paltrow sat at the table next to mine at the Grange in Greenwich Village once.
She kept looking over at me, biting her lower lip, and twirling her hair around her finger. She wanted me.
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Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Gwyneth Paltrow sat at the table next to mine at the Grange in Greenwich Village once.
She kept looking over at me, biting her lower lip, and twirling her hair around her finger. She wanted me.
maybe she has a thing for famous tennis players
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Originally posted by pdx pollard:
Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
Gwyneth Paltrow sat at the table next to mine at the Grange in Greenwich Village once.
She kept looking over at me, biting her lower lip, and twirling her hair around her finger. She wanted me.
maybe she has a thing for famous tennis players [/b]
does he look like Richie Tennenbaum?
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<img src="http://www.ken.ch/so/alt/schuelerInnen/h3b2000/www.tennis.ch/bilder/john%20mcenroe.jpg" alt=" - " />
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One time I saw Macy Gray at Morton's in Georgetown. She and her entourage showed up late and were REALLY pissed that they couldn't be seated right away, in a private area. Not like anyone there cared who she was.
I run into Carole King on Capitol Hill all the time. I think I've met her about 6 or 7 times.
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The 4P's used to bring in a good amount of celebs for a local Irish Bar.
I served beers to among other non DC sports/polticos: Mariah Carey, Shannen Doherty (I still love that story), and the only time I ever had my picture taken with a celeb in the bar - Dominik Hasek.
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Originally posted by frenchpiece:
I bet they got a long term lease or bought their turf in the Haight and Berkeley years before the Bay Area went through the tech boom.
It was right in the middle of the tech boom, and they bought an old run down bowling alley that, if I remember correctly, sat vacant for a while before they turned into the Mecca of music stores.
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Why is DCist asking local musicians about a problem they likely know little about when they should be asking people who may have solutions to the problem?
That's obvious. Because I'm sexy.
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Originally posted by the Pharmacist:
That's obvious. Because I'm sexy.
I was hoping it was you....and that you wouldn't take offense. To me it appeared like they were asking the manufacturing dept a question that should be asked of the marketing and sales department. That's all I was getting at.
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Not a whit of offense taken at all. Quite the opposite really. Anytime someone is talking about me, even tangetially, I am giddy with great joy and ego.
It was kinda interesting to write about though as I have NO clue about how retail works. I DO know a lot about Hanoi Rocks though and have the t-shirts to prove it!!!
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you worked at the 4 Ps??
Originally posted by vansmack:
The 4P's used to bring in a good amount of celebs for a local Irish Bar.
I served beers to among other non DC sports/polticos: Mariah Carey, Shannen Doherty (I still love that story), and the only time I ever had my picture taken with a celeb in the bar - Dominik Hasek.
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Originally posted by brennser:
you worked at the 4 Ps??
Why do I get the feeling we're about to know each other outside of this board?
Yes, I worked at the 4P's. And when I wasn't working there, I was drinking and throwing darts there.
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As one of the owners of the defunct Now! Music and Fashion I'll give you a couple reasons why its so hard to operate an indie show in DC.
1. Start up costs are very high because you need a lot of inventory to have a good selection. We never had quite enough cash to carry everything we wanted. And if you miss sales cos you dont have the inventory thats a problem.
2. Rent is really high in this area. Our first location in Clarendon was terrific, but the rent was 6k a month. We never broke even in that locale.
3. Downloads. In my personal opinion you'd be crazy to open an indie store at this point due to music downloads. Even Newbury comics is having problems at this point. The future is not in CDs and indie stores all over are having problems due to it.
4. DC has a small group of indie music lovers but you have to do volume to make money and we never did.
I wish DC could support a great record store and although we never reached 100% of our potential we gave it our best shot. We had a lot of breaks go against us though and never quite made it. Its a very tough business. Good luck to anyone giving it a go.
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i used to frequent aron's records in LA quite a bit. now that was a cool indie record store. saw ringo starr there once, and again at some trendy shoe shop on melrose. spotted janeane garafolo quite a bit.
as for berkeley stores, i always preferred rasputins. in high school we used to always scour the bins at rasputins. but amoeba's was pretty popular when it opened.
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Golden State
Record Chain Bets on the Past, Future
No industry has been as thoroughly eviscerated by new technologies and changing cultural norms as the music business.
The record companies are consolidating, laying people off, wondering whither their audience has fled.
Record chains like Tower Records and Wherehouse Music have spent long stretches under bankruptcy protection. Makers of portable devices and purveyors of online music are all searching for the right formula to serve a mass market.
Through all this upheaval, Amoeba Music survives. The independent record chain was founded in 1990 in a Berkeley storefront and subsequently expanded to three stores â?? one on San Francisco's Haight Street and another, launched in November 2001 near Sunset and Vine, that instantly became a Hollywood landmark.
Up to now Amoeba's success has been based on looking backward. It relies for as much as half its unit volume on used, vintage, and collectible LPs ("vinyl" in used-record parlance), CDs, and DVDs on which high profit margins make up for the razor-thin margins on new CDs. Amoeba's used-record buyers are masters at assessing with a glance material that comes across its trade-in counters by the thousands per day â?? more than 200,000 items a month at the Hollywood location alone, not including items acquired from established collections or at estate sales.
But Amoeba is about to take a couple of big leaps into the future, with plans to start its own record label and to create an online site for downloadable music.
"We're starting the 21st century now," Dave Prinz, 52, one of the company's co-founders, told me last week in Berkeley. "The Internet is changing everything. We were ignoring it."
As a chain that has stayed in private hands, remained manageably compact, and built a devoted (not to say fanatical) clientele, Amoeba has long seemed immune from the changes roiling the rest of the industry. Only this year has it detected any flattening of sales that might arguably be traced to free peer-to-peer music trading and commercial downloading sites.
Part of its appeal to customers is the stores' unique atmosphere. Amoeba shuns industry promotions that make customers at Tower Records or Best Buy feel as if they're trapped in a "living commercial," in the words of Marc Weinstein, 48, who was working in a Bay Area record store when he co-founded Amoeba with Prinz and two other friends. (One, Karen Pearson, now oversees the L.A. store; the other is retired.)
Amoeba takes great pride in the uncanny erudition of its staff â?? its test for applicants for a buyer's position is so tough that, according to company legend, only one person, a buyer at the Haight store, has ever notched a perfect grade.
Indeed, armed with a list of hard-to-find CDs from several genres, I was able to stump the Berkeley floor staff on only one, an obscure Hungarian recording of the ensemble piece "Coming Together/Attica" by composer Frederic Rzewski that I've been trying to replace for years.
Amoeba is the rare chain where the inventory encompasses items including the Guarneri Quartet's 30-year-old recording of Mozart's Six Quartets Dedicated to Haydn, Ellington's "Great Paris Concert" and a huge selection of the avant-garde saxophonist John Zorn â?? not to mention black metal, electronica, world music and much more. The very breadth of the inventory creates its own sense of community among the customers â?? especially within the diversity of L.A.
"Amoeba is this little distillation machine," Weinstein says. "I can't tell you how many people thank me just for creating a place you can go and be proud of the L.A. scene."
Weinstein and his partners have consistently resisted pressure to expand the chain beyond what they could embrace with their own arms, turning down feelers from New York and Chicago. Los Angeles was harder to rebuff, in part because customers visiting the Bay Area from Southern California kept pleading for a local outlet.
"L.A. was the biggest chance we took," Weinstein says. "It was the chance of losing control."
The owners focused their energies by making the L.A. store big enough to serve as a destination for the entire region. They spent roughly $2.5 million to acquire used vinyl and CDs over a period of months before the grand opening of their 30,000-square-foot store, seeding it with an inventory that exceeded that of the two Bay Area stores combined.
The new store soon exceeded the owners' projections, and not merely in sales volume.
"The sheer number of hard-core music lovers and collectors in L.A. was far beyond what we expected," Weinstein says. "Then there's the ethnic and economic diversity. It's a deep and rich tapestry, and after 25 years up here in the Bay Area, it's refreshing to have that alternative reality in my life."
Still, opening a major bricks-and-mortar location doesn't sound like an experience the partners are eager to repeat. Instead, they're contemplating alternative ways of distributing music.
That has led to plans, still in development, for an Internet download site, perhaps to absorb the technological challenges they know are coming. "The next store we build will be virtual," Prinz says.
More advanced are plans for an Amoeba record label. Prinz, an enthusiast who wears his passions on his sleeve, says the first CD, scheduled for January, will be a previously unreleased 1969 concert recording by one of his artistic heroes, the country-rock pioneer Gram Parsons. Prinz hopes to follow the CD with other archival material from Parsons, only a fraction of which appeared before the musician's death in 1973 at the age of 26.
Amoeba will also release an album featuring the Robin Nolan Trio, a Gypsy jazz group inspired by Django Reinhardt, and Brandi Shearer, a local singer who happened to join the Nolan group for a promotional appearance at the Haight Street store and knocked Prinz over with her smoky voice.
The label's business model will thus reflect that of the stores â?? a little looking back, and a little looking forward. Says Weinstein, "this business has always been about the cool stuff we could bring to people."
From: The LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/business/custom/cotown/la-fi-golden17nov17,0,640783.column?coll=la-home-headlines)