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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Seth Hurwitz on March 28, 2009, 07:45:09 pm

Title: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on March 28, 2009, 07:45:09 pm
I think it sucks and they ought to make it illegal

in the meantime, they should find out how these people are getting the tickets
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: eros on March 28, 2009, 08:01:09 pm
I'm pretty sure sure this was posted in another thread, but Trent Reznor summed it up pretty well.

"As we approach on-sale dates for the upcoming tour, I've noticed lots of you are curious / concerned / outraged at the plethora of tickets that somehow appear on all these reseller sites at inflated prices - even before the pre-sale dates. I'll do my best to explain the situation as I see it, as well as clarify my organization's stance in the matter.

NIN decides to tour this summer. We arrive at the conclusion outdoor amphitheaters are the right venue for this outing, for a variety of reasons we've throughly considered*. In the past, NIN would sell the shows in each market to local promoters, who then "buy" the show from us to sell to you. Live Nation happens to own all the amphitheaters and bought most of the local promoters - so if you want to play those venues, you're being promoted by Live Nation. Live Nation has had an exclusive deal with TicketMaster that has just expired, so Live Nation launched their own ticketing service. Most of the dates on this tour are through Live Nation, some are through TicketMaster - this is determined by the promoter (Live Nation), not us.
Now we get into the issue of secondary markets for tickets, which is the hot issue here. The ticketing marketplace for rock concerts shows a real lack of sophistication, meaning this: the true market value of some tickets for some concerts is much higher than what the act wants to be perceived as charging. For example, there are some people who would be willing to pay $1,000 and up to be in the best seats for various shows, but MOST acts in the rock / pop world don't want to come off as greedy pricks asking that much, even though the market says its value is that high. The acts know this, the venue knows this, the promoters know this, the ticketing company knows this and the scalpers really know this. So...

The venue, the promoter, the ticketing agency and often the artist camp (artist, management and agent) take tickets from the pool of available seats and feed them directly to the re-seller (which from this point on will be referred to by their true name: SCALPER). I am not saying every one of the above entities all do this, nor am I saying they do it for all shows but this is a very common practice that happens more often than not. There is money to be made and they feel they should participate in it. There are a number of scams they employ to pull this off which is beyond the scope of this note.

StubHub.com is an example of a re-seller / scalper. So is TicketsNow.com.

Here's the rub: TicketMaster has essentially been a monopoly for many years - certainly up until Live Nation's exclusive deal ran out. They could have (and can right now) stop the secondary market dead in its tracks by doing the following: limit the amount of sales per customer, print names on the tickets and require ID / ticket matches at the venue. We know this works because we do it for our pre-sales. Why don't THEY do it? It's obvious - they make a lot of money fueling the secondary market. TicketMaster even bought a re-seller site and often bounces you over to that site to buy tickets (TicketsNow.com)!

NIN gets 10% of the available seats for our own pre-sale. We won a tough (and I mean TOUGH) battle to get the best seats. We require you to sign up at our site (for free) to get tickets. We limit the amount you can buy, we print your name on the tickets and we have our own person let you in a separate entrance where we check your ID to match the ticket. We charge you a surcharge that has been less than TicketMaster's or Live Nation's in all cases so far to pay for the costs of doing this - it's not a profit center for us. We have essentially stopped scalping by doing these things - because we want true fans to be able to get great seats and not get ripped off by these parasites.

I assure you nobody in the NIN camp supplies or supports the practice of supplying tickets to these re-sellers because it's not something we morally feel is the right thing to do. We are leaving money on the table here but it's not always about money.
Being completely honest, it IS something I've had to consider. If people are willing to pay a lot of money to sit up front AND ARE GOING TO ANYWAY thanks to the rigged system, why let that money go into the hands of the scalpers? I'm the one busting my ass up there every night. The conclusion really came down to it not feeling like the right thing to do - simple as that.

My guess as to what will eventually happen if / when Live Nation and TicketMaster merges is that they'll move to an auction or market-based pricing scheme - which will simply mean it will cost a lot more to get a good seat for a hot show. They will simply BECOME the scalper, eliminating them from the mix.

Nothing's going to change until the ticketing entity gets serious about stopping the problem - which of course they don't see as a problem. The ultimate way to hurt scalpers is to not support them. Leave them holding the merchandise. If this subject interests you, check out the following links. Don't buy from scalpers, and be suspect of artists singing the praises of the Live Nation / TicketMaster merger. What's in it for them?

* I fully realize by playing those venues we are getting into bed with all these guys. I've learned to choose my fights and at this point in time it would be logistically too difficult to attempt to circumvent the venues / promoter / ticketing infrastructure already in place for this type of tour. For those of you about to snipe "it's your fault for playing there, etc... " - I know it is."


What continues to amaze me is that people actually pay these prices.  I can't remember the last time I wasn't able to score a ticket to a show or sporting event I wanted to attend at a reasonable price (i.e., at or very close to face value).  If people could just get it through their heads that for "big ticket" events there is almost always a glut of inventory on the show date (check craigslist sometime) plus the fact that more tickets are always released prior to the show, then the scalpers would have a harder time doing business.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: betao on March 28, 2009, 08:22:53 pm
*paging all Phish fans to the thread, paging*
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on March 28, 2009, 08:42:34 pm
I'm completely fine with it. Honestly.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sweetcell on March 28, 2009, 09:33:23 pm
"As we approach on-sale dates for the upcoming tour, I've noticed lots of you are curious / concerned / outraged at the plethora of tickets that somehow appear on all these reseller sites at inflated prices - even before the pre-sale dates.

something to consider: just because someone lists a ticket for sale doesn't mean they have it in hand.  anyone can promise a front-row seat for $2000 - at that stupid price, they will find one for less and pocket the difference.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on March 28, 2009, 10:34:56 pm
This coming from the guy who buys a can of Guinness for $2 and resells it for $9.

That's rich, bro. Real fucking rich.  ;D


I think it sucks and they ought to make it illegal

in the meantime, they should find out how these people are getting the tickets
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: mrcid on March 28, 2009, 11:28:34 pm
I hate beer scalpers. They really suck the squirrels nuts.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on March 28, 2009, 11:32:55 pm
Speaking of scalping, when the hell is v fest seth??
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sweetcell on March 28, 2009, 11:47:58 pm
I'm completely fine with it. Honestly.

as a representative of the ferragamo & channel set (aka those who can & do pay $1000 for a seat), i wouldn't have expected anything less :D
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: profile14 on March 29, 2009, 12:08:36 am
Trent Reznor sums it up very well. But really, the fact is, it is up to us as consumers to stay ahead of the scalpers, be on the lists for presale info from your favoratie venues and bands. The best example I know of is Metallica: If you are a member of their fan club (which costs like $25 a year and includes a T-shirt, quarterly mag and other shit), you get pre-sale privileges that give you access to the best seats. But you cannot resell them. You must appear at will call to claim you tix day-of-show, with ID, then go directly into the venue. You cannot even walk into the street with the tix. This works great, because the best seats go to the real fans and resellers are completely out of the loop. Other premium (expensive, big venue) bands should do the same.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: mrcid on March 29, 2009, 01:26:19 am
That Metallica plan works perfectly. You should ask all of my buyers. They had the best seats in the house.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: profile14 on March 29, 2009, 08:06:58 am
well, seemed fool-proof to me. Guess there's always a way around.
The pre-sale for the fall U.S. tour starts April 1, but no DC show. But say I wanted to buy some fan club presale tix to give to a friend for the show at the NYC Garden. How would I do that, without me having to be there to claim them for him? Not being facetious, seriously would like to know.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on March 29, 2009, 08:13:55 am
Scalping is different from beer reselling -- Scalpers profit without adding value to the transaction, and are therefore essentially leeches on society (much like derivatives traders).   Bars profit because they add value to the beer they're selling -- an enjoyable atmosphere, for example.   

I'm rather surprised this obvious difference needs to be explained.   ::)

Finally, if MrCid is actually a scalper, I say off with his head (or off with his Forum account)

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Injun Joe on March 29, 2009, 08:23:13 am
Mr. Hurlwitz, I would ask that you do not use the term scalping.  It does an injustice to my people.  I have attened an event at your club and I have indeed paid $9 for a $2 beer.  I like my Guiness.  It's like a beer milkshake.  But I did not like paying such an extreme amount for my beer milkshake.  You Mr. Hurlwitz, you are like the pot calling the kettle black.  That being, both the pot and kettle are black.  You charge very very high prices for your alcohol (the beer milkshake that I had as well as a shot of whisky) and then complain about ticket prices.  You, my friend,  are an intoxicating liquor scalper, er broker. 
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on March 29, 2009, 09:34:51 am
Here's the difference...

I am not complaining about ticket prices

I am complaining about people buying up all the tickets and then jacking the price up from what was intended to be charged

This would be like someone entering the club, buying all the Guiness we had, and setting up shop selling them at twice the price
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: mrcid on March 29, 2009, 10:42:20 am
But this is where your explanations take a turn into fairy tale land. Never in the history of ticket brokering has one individual or group or even the entire collective of brokers ever bought ALL of the tickets for an event. By most standards, brokers may buy up to a maximum of 10% or less of the tickets for any given event. Even at this percentage, it becomes a huge gamble and prices are almost sure to plummet to well below face value before event time. If the brokers bought up ALL of the tickets for a given event, there would be ZERO value in the tickets.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on March 29, 2009, 10:58:22 am
OK let me revise that

this would be like someone buying the remaining guiness

anyway, point is, I am a capitalist and will charge you as much for a beer as I think I can get away with, before too many people get pissed off...same with tickets

but I would like to be the one setting those prices in my businesses, not someone else

and I have zero concern for people that categorically whine about prices going up, because those people have zero concern about my financial picture
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Injun Joe on March 29, 2009, 10:59:12 am
Here's the difference...

I am not complaining about ticket prices

I am complaining about people buying up all the tickets and then jacking the price up from what was intended to be charged

This would be like someone entering the club, buying all the Guiness we had, and setting up shop selling them at twice the price

Your 1st two sentences are an oxymoron.  You are indeed complaining about the prices.  I can buy Guiness for 1/5 of the price you charge.  Did Guiness intend for the beer to be sold at $9 a beer?  Not what they charge.  But you have overhead and intend to make a profit with your business, right?  It's all about capitalism, isn't it now?  Go sell some overpriced beer and stop whining.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on March 29, 2009, 11:00:31 am
someone call the wahbulance
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: set1914 on March 29, 2009, 11:08:26 am
I was never happy with ticket scalping, but I never had a real problem with it. At times, I had go this route to get to see a show or sporting event. I now have a problem with it, since some artist, sports teams and promoters and moving their tickets to ?ticket brokers? to sell at a higher prices. I can not blame them for doing this when the see what the scalpers are making. The only way this is going to stop is when people stop buying tickets via a ticket broker (a nice way to say  ticket scalper).
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on March 29, 2009, 11:12:28 am
My point of starting this topic was because it seemed to be assumed that, as a promoter, I participated in this sot of thing

not claiming sainthood, just wanted to set the record straight
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on March 29, 2009, 12:40:30 pm
This would be like someone entering the club, buying all the Guiness we had, and setting up shop selling them at twice the price
As long as they have the appropriate licensing from the District of Columbia's alcohol beverage control department, how could someone have a problem with that?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: walkonby on March 29, 2009, 12:44:48 pm
say what you will about that overpriced shite in a can, when you should be drinking abitha or 930 ale from the basement bar . . . . but this goes out to seth for posting this thread in the first place.

(http://imgsrv.923krock.com/image/wfny3/UserFiles/Image/news_images/hands_clapping.gif)

go tarheels.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on March 29, 2009, 12:45:44 pm
go tarheels.
ABC: Anyone But Carolina.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: bkrome on March 29, 2009, 12:50:22 pm
Its the big time companies and ebay power sellers who appear to make a living off of scalping that frustrate me.  Its a low way to make a living.  I don't mind as much buying a ticket for a little guy on ebay or craigslist selling a couple of tickets.

and yeah any info about vfest? please? hints?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: serpent boy on March 29, 2009, 12:55:26 pm
I'll avoid the beer topic because I don't drink, so therefore it doesn't affect me.

I'm glad Seth is clarifying his position in this thread, though I had never doubted him in the first place. As noted in the Reznor post above, a lot of promoters and club owners DO actively participate in the scalping. By not condoning scalping, Seth is at least making some of the process transparent for 9:30 Club shows. Though it'll still occur no matter what safeguards are put into place, it's good to know that one part of the equation is clear.

I've always felt like I've had more than a fair shot at 9:30 Club tickets for any show. The soft-sale almost never sells out instantly, so if I miss a show, it's my fault for not reading Just Announced or paying attention. The shows I do miss (Bloc Party, for example) often fall victim to the Craigslist scalpers, so if I want to go to a show, I know what I have to do.

I'm interested in seeing what bands have facilitated jacking up prices since Reznor claims they are a big part of it.

Couldn't 9:30 Club also require something like the name and last four digits of a credit card on all tickets (to big shows, at least) to prevent scalping? I realize this makes the staff's job a bit tougher, but it can also decrease scalping.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on March 29, 2009, 01:42:03 pm
say what you will about that overpriced shite in a can

(http://imgsrv.923krock.com/image/wfny3/UserFiles/Image/news_images/hands_clapping.gif)

go tarheels.

Yeah, Guiness is a whole additional level of ripoff... take mass-produced crap, add to it a lot of bogus "Irish" imagery, and distribute it for 10 times what it's actually worth.

I haven't been to Ireland for a long time, but I'm guessing Irish people with taste don't walk into a pub and order Guiness any more than self-respecting Australians order Foster's.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Chip Chanko on March 29, 2009, 05:01:33 pm
I haven't been to Ireland for a long time, but I'm guessing Irish people with taste don't walk into a pub and order Guiness any more than self-respecting Australians order Foster's.

I spent a year over there in 94/95 and from my memory most people drank either Budweiser or Guinness. I was pretty surprised about the Budweiser.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on March 29, 2009, 05:09:12 pm


http://www.bootsnall.com/articles/08-08/best-selling-beers-around-the-world.html


Ireland


 Some people don?t really consider stout a beer at all, but we do, and otherwise we couldn?t even mention the way Guinness dominates the market in Ireland. Domestic sales have actually been dropping a bit for the past few years, though they still account for nearly half of the total in the country. Fans of the stuff insist the lines have to be clean and the beer has to be fresh, so it always tastes better in Ireland than it does elsewhere. It's now brewed in almost 50 different countries worldwide, and even though the company insists it's all the same, this could help explain why it seems better in some places than in others. The best selling lager is Harp, which happens to be owned by Diageo, which is the same London-based company that owns Guinness.
say what you will about that overpriced shite in a can

(http://imgsrv.923krock.com/image/wfny3/UserFiles/Image/news_images/hands_clapping.gif)

go tarheels.

Yeah, Guiness is a whole additional level of ripoff... take mass-produced crap, add to it a lot of bogus "Irish" imagery, and distribute it for 10 times what it's actually worth.

I haven't been to Ireland for a long time, but I'm guessing Irish people with taste don't walk into a pub and order Guiness any more than self-respecting Australians order Foster's.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: RatBastard on March 29, 2009, 06:21:24 pm
I'm interested in seeing what bands have facilitated jacking up prices since Reznor claims they are a big part of it.

Aerosmith does.  They scalp tickets to their own fan club members.  They try very hard to disguise it as a promotional package, but what you get at face value costs several hundred dollars less than what they charge you.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on March 29, 2009, 07:00:21 pm
Anyway, to get back to the economics of scalping... what scalpers do is take advantage of the difference between the price a club is willing to charge without alienating its customers, and the maximum price the market will bear.

Seth could put an end to scalping by raising his prices so high that only the most monied would be able or willing to pay for shows.  Tickets would not sell out as quickly, but by effectively charging scalpers' rates, he would then collect the profit that scalpers currently gain.

Unfortunately, this would alienate a huge portion of the 930 Club's base, and shut out many ardent music fans.   Those people would eventually turn to other things than seeing bands at the club.  Seth might grow wealthy in the short run, but the Club would become something other than what it is now, and would eventually fail.

It's actually a pretty good demonstration of the fact that free market capitalism will only get you so far.

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: walkonby on March 29, 2009, 08:23:43 pm
go tarheels.
ABC: Anyone But Carolina.

tarheels =  abc: a basketball classic

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on March 29, 2009, 08:57:15 pm
If the final is UNC v. Michigan State, I might pray for Ford Field to collapse in on itself. Heck, the Lions don't need it.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: SPARX on March 29, 2009, 09:08:15 pm
If the final is UNC v. Michigan State

That ain't happenin. Mark my words, I have just 2: Big East
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: walkonby on March 29, 2009, 09:18:24 pm
If the final is UNC v. Michigan State, I might pray for Ford Field to collapse in on itself. Heck, the Lions don't need it.

actually i would love to see that . . . just to put those silly "we know everything about sports" michigan fans in their place after unc is snipping down the net in victory frenzy.

replace guiness with hofbrau.  on draft and in bottle.  the new maibock for spring is as awesome as u2's "unforgetable fire."  word.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on March 29, 2009, 09:32:19 pm
If the final is UNC v. Michigan State

That ain't happenin. Mark my words, I have just 2: Big East
Here's hoping.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: kosmo vinyl on March 29, 2009, 09:44:34 pm
thinking about using the split topic function at this moment..
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on March 29, 2009, 09:47:51 pm
go tarheels.
ABC: Anyone But Carolina.

tarheels =  abc: a basketball classic




the games are on CBS anyway.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: walkonby on March 29, 2009, 09:55:07 pm
cbs: carolina brings satisfaction
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on March 29, 2009, 10:18:57 pm
CBS: Carolina's Bull Shit

Tyler Hansborough: Eric Montross v2.0
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: HoyaSaxa03 on March 29, 2009, 10:41:37 pm
I haven't been to Ireland for a long time, but I'm guessing Irish people with taste don't walk into a pub and order Guiness any more than self-respecting Australians order Foster's.

I spent a year over there in 94/95 and from my memory most people drank either Budweiser or Guinness. I was pretty surprised about the Budweiser.

when i lived there in '02 i saw as many budweiser and heineken taps as guinness ... and the budweiser tasted a lot better in ireland ;)

btw, going back to dublin for a long weekend in may... anyone been there recently and can recommend any hot spots?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on March 30, 2009, 12:48:07 am
thinking about using the split topic function at this moment..

yes, well, we've gone from scalping to guiness & Tyler Hansbrough
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on March 30, 2009, 07:32:34 am
Let's say a stamp collector buys a postage stamp, and a month later, for whatever reason, he finds that there are people willing to give him five times the amount of money he paid for the stamp. He decides to sell the stamp to the highest bidder.

Should he be thrown in jail?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on March 30, 2009, 08:03:06 am
Not sure why I'm bothering to waste my time explaining this, as I'm sure you fully understand the difference, but one last post and then I will assume that you just like saying you gave me shit:

this would be like someone buying up all the remaining stamps, and then standing outside the post office and offering to sell all of the people that couldn't mail a letter stamps at twice the price

I think that if they limited the resale value of tickets, if not to zero increase, it would end this whole problem

and I do think it's a problem
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on March 30, 2009, 08:22:25 am
I think the real point is that its hard for the concert goer to take sympathy here.

You pay Band X $10,000 to play at the club and then charge 1000 people $25 to get in to see them.

you are charging a premium to make a profit because you have the resources to have a band play at your club.  So when someone else has the resources to buy 100 tickets and sell them for his own profit, I dont see the difference. 

I realize that you do, because you're in that business whereas, despite working at clubs, I am not really in that business.

Sometimes it doesnt matter who's ripping us off! 

As for the stamps analogy, or any other one, it never works. You are thinking like the seller and we are thinking like the buyer.  Why should the post office be the only one to profit frmo stamps.  that doesnt sound capitalist!

Besides, you own venues, therefore, you stand in a position to do something about scalping. It may cut into your profit, and it may not be much, but its more than we can do out here!
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on March 30, 2009, 08:39:38 am
More importantly than all of this scalper talk...are we going to get an area Wilco appearance this summer?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: eltee on March 30, 2009, 09:45:15 am
I haven't been to Ireland for a long time, but I'm guessing Irish people with taste don't walk into a pub and order Guiness any more than self-respecting Australians order Foster's.

I spent a year over there in 94/95 and from my memory most people drank either Budweiser or Guinness. I was pretty surprised about the Budweiser.

when i lived there in '02 i saw as many budweiser and heineken taps as guinness ... and the budweiser tasted a lot better in ireland ;)

btw, going back to dublin for a long weekend in may... anyone been there recently and can recommend any hot spots?
I was there last year, they definitely still drink Guinness. I think the number they stated was 4 million gallons made - 2 mil are sold (consumed) in Ireland.
(don't know what this info is worth, but there is a large Bud sign in the city centre).
Hoya, I'm not sure what is new since you lived there, but I can drum up a list of venues (I saved many papers) to visit. Although, Pollstar / TM list clubs...You are lucky, summer is a great time there. Other cities get a lot of music these days too. (wish I could go to Oxegen Festival). Enjoy!
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface on March 30, 2009, 10:02:25 am
Yeah, this whole "you're buying ALL the stamps" argument is so weak it's embarrassing. The outrage this board has towards scalping would be applause if the exact same principle is applied to anything else.

And the whole "I have the right to decide the prices as it relates to my business" is the most myopic thing in the entire thread. Hey guy, you do, and you know what, if scalpers buy up "all the tickets" (which is an absurd misnomer) then the price YOU set for YOUR business was met. You should be thrilled. But then someone else is going to decide the price for THEIR resale business.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: DeathFromAbove1979 on March 30, 2009, 11:23:37 am
This coming from the guy who buys a can of Guinness for $2 and resells it for $9.

That's rich, bro. Real fucking rich.  ;D


I think it sucks and they ought to make it illegal

in the meantime, they should find out how these people are getting the tickets
Ha
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sweetcell on March 30, 2009, 11:38:33 am
Yeah, this whole "you're buying ALL the stamps" argument is so weak it's embarrassing.

absolutely correct - equating concert tickets with stamps is ridiculous and incorrect.

some ways in which beer (or a postage stamp) isn't like a concert ticket:
- there is a virtually unlimited supply of beer (and postage stamps).  bars can order more if they start to run out, any shortage is temporary.  concert tickets are in limited supply.  once they're gone, that's it.
- beer is a physical good that you enjoy immediately - it's value is intrinsic.  a concert ticket has no intrinsic value, it's a piece of paper.  the value that it represents is a license to attend an event.  you can dictate the terms of a license - for example, you're not allowed re-selling cable no matter what price the cable company charges you for it.
 
I think the real point is that its hard for the concert goer to take sympathy here.

You pay Band X $10,000 to play at the club and then charge 1000 people $25 to get in to see them.

you are charging a premium to make a profit because you have the resources to have a band play at your club.  So when someone else has the resources to buy 100 tickets and sell them for his own profit, I dont see the difference. 

there are many differences: seth & the artists have a contract and have leverage over each other.  if a band doesn't like how seth sells his tickets, they can choose not to do business with him.  if either party has a problem with the other, they have recourse to courts.  the scalper is outside all this.  from a strategic point of view, the band and the club are also trying to establish a long-term relationship with their client base.  the scalper is interested in a one-time sale.

BTW, sonick, are you implying that capitalism is bad?  that as soon as anyone charges more than what they pay, it's scalping?!?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on March 30, 2009, 11:51:36 am
I am saying that scalping is capitalism.  and for someone who champions capitalism on a regular basis (Seth) its odd that scalping would be such an issue.

 I did not say what my opinion on capitalism was, though ;)
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: godsshoeshine on March 30, 2009, 11:54:08 am
i was in ireland last summer. guinness is plentiful, but of course in the west murphy's rules the world
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on March 30, 2009, 12:00:10 pm

there are many differences: seth & the artists have a contract and have leverage over each other.  if a band doesn't like how seth sells his tickets, they can choose not to do business with him.  if either party has a problem with the other, they have recourse to courts.  the scalper is outside all this.  from a strategic point of view, the band and the club are also trying to establish a long-term relationship with their client base.  the scalper is interested in a one-time sale.

when i said "i dont see the difference" i was referring to the difference regarding the consumer. i'm spending my money for the same purpose either way.  

the point is , some shows are over priced and dont sell out, some shows are underpriced and result in scalpers.

If wal-mart started selling Wii's for $50, people would buy them up and wait til they were sold out....then sell them for $100.  is that scalping or capitalism?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: vansmack on March 30, 2009, 12:35:08 pm
in the meantime, they should find out how these people are getting the tickets

This is the crux of the problem.  People are gaming the system and either the original ticket distributors are unable, unwilling or working in conjunction with the scalpers to enable this behavior.

I can assure you people are not showing up at the 9:30 Club box office and buying 80 pairs of tickets to redistribute.

So we've heard from the fans that they're angry about it, though the voice is muted.  Some artists have tried different ploys to get around it.  What are the promoters doing about it?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on March 30, 2009, 03:05:55 pm
What are the promoters doing about it?

or the ticket agencies! ticketmaster and tickets.com use the captcha stuff but they've been using that for like 10 years, plenty of time for someone to figure a way around it.

artists can try to foil scalpers but run the risk of alienating fanbase
promoters can try to foil scalpers but run the risk of losing customers
ticketing companies can try to foil scalpers but run the risk of higher overhead
ticket consumers can try to foil scalpers but run the risk of missing a show they wanted to see

sounds like the prisoner's dilemma to me.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: vansmack on March 30, 2009, 03:09:34 pm
or the ticket agencies!

They're joining the scalpers because they'll be damned if somebody makes money on their product and they're not part of it.  That's why Ticketmaster bought ticketsnow.com - a very popular ticket scalping site.

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: walkonby on March 30, 2009, 03:19:56 pm
and if people just wake up and realize that these things are merely concerts, which mean little to nothing in the grand scheme of things called surviving on this planet, the artists suffer as their shows become less and less attended by a generation attempting to make a statement against scalpers by boycotting shows altogether.  perhaps virtual reality concerts will become the rage.  you can be in you undies in your living room, no beer or pee pee lines, scratching your belly and belching as much as you want, listening and experiencing your favorite band where there are no idiots talking and taking non stop pictures the entire show.

and damn these band names are getting out of hand . . . mount saint helens vietnam band . . . come on now.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on March 30, 2009, 03:22:40 pm
"pee pee lines" classic
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Venerable Bede on March 30, 2009, 03:52:11 pm
darn, i thought this was going to be about the white house (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/26/AR2009032602263.html) easter egg roll (http://www.enlightenedredneck.com/2009/03/28/how-obama-ruined-the-easter-egg-roll/)
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: brennser on March 30, 2009, 03:55:40 pm
i was in ireland last summer. guinness is plentiful, but of course in the west murphy's rules the world

I was there last week and can assure you there is plenty of guinness still being drunk!
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on March 31, 2009, 07:18:59 am
when it used to really be scalpers that paid people to get in line first, and make the effort to beat the system in the same manner that anyone else could, then that was speculation & entrepreneurialism and I didn't have a problem with it

what I don't think is fair is when it's an inside job, and they get loads of tickets that everyone else couldn't

point of all this was simply that, for the record, I don't participate in it...I don't care if someone else is making money off my concerts, I just choose not to be part of that process...my job is to sell the ticket once
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on March 31, 2009, 07:20:51 am
all in all good, so when the hell do we hear about v fest?????
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on March 31, 2009, 08:15:36 am
when it used to really be scalpers that paid people to get in line first, and make the effort to beat the system in the same manner that anyone else could, then that was speculation & entrepreneurialism and I didn't have a problem with it

what I don't think is fair is when it's an inside job, and they get loads of tickets that everyone else couldn't

point of all this was simply that, for the record, I don't participate in it...I don't care if someone else is making money off my concerts, I just choose not to be part of that process...my job is to sell the ticket once


and thats why you're so successful!

now about that Vfest....
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Got Haggis? on March 31, 2009, 08:54:06 am
well at least it seems it isn't possible to scalp vfest tickets since I don't think it ever sells out.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on March 31, 2009, 11:28:44 am
well at least it seems it isn't possible to scalp vfest tickets since I don't think it ever sells out.

ouch.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on March 31, 2009, 11:34:18 am
well at least it seems it isn't possible to scalp vfest tickets since I don't think it ever sells out.

ouch.

This is very true in fact you can even get cheaper tickets on the day of the show since scalpers can't get rid of them.  Thats one good thing about scalping if you run into some who sell them for a loss.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Herr Professor Doktor Doom on April 01, 2009, 06:47:03 pm
Heh... I've been in the situation at a few big shows where there are way more scalpers than buyers...  you don't make your move until after the band goes into its first song, at which point the scalpers panic...  you can entice these human scum to enter into bidding battles with each other -- they'll fight it out right in front of you, and you end up with a ticket for way below face.   

I used to do this for sport, these days I don't care enough, and I prefer not to deal with such people even if it's to my gain.  So it's only direct for me.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on April 01, 2009, 06:56:09 pm
yeah i always wait till the show is at the second encore then buy the ticket at 10 times the value.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Got Haggis? on April 02, 2009, 09:41:49 am
well at least it seems it isn't possible to scalp vfest tickets since I don't think it ever sells out.

ouch.

wasn't meant as a dig....the capacity for vfest is quite large, i wouldn't expect it to sell out.  It was meant to continue the discussion about vfest to see if seth will cough up some info about it ;)
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: walkonby on April 02, 2009, 09:50:04 am
well at least it seems it isn't possible to scalp vfest tickets since I don't think it ever sells out.

ouch.

wasn't meant as a dig....the capacity for vfest is quite large, i wouldn't expect it to sell out.  It was meant to continue the discussion about vfest to see if seth will cough up some info about it ;)

perhaps seth is too busy buying up all the stamps.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Bags on April 02, 2009, 06:49:08 pm
Thanks, Seth.  I think you cleared up a lot (for me), though I never believed IMP was an offender in this arena.  My big problem these days is the official unofficial resale sites like TicketsNow.  I was one of many thrown over to TicketsNow seconds after 10:00 a.m. for Springsteen.  That is insane.  If I have to deal with a scalper because I wasn't on the ball, etc., that's simply what I have to deal with.  But if the system is rigged ex ante, that is wrong.  If all have equal access to tickets on a level playing field, that is capitalism.  However, if there is an undue exertion of market power, that is not.  I believe that's the case here.

For the folks who are using beer as an example, you CAN get $2 Guinness anytime you want.  It means you drink it at home.  Now getting U2 to your house, or some other less expensive way to see them, that's another thing.  Or finding another night spot where you can get a $2 Guinness...that will be a challenge as well.

Wonder how some of the lot of you would respond if, in response to your cogent arguments here, Seth raised his prices by 50%.  You know, the increase in per ticket price could make up for the decrease in ticket sale volume.  Maybe he should try it?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on April 03, 2009, 01:46:49 pm

For the folks who are using beer as an example, you CAN get $2 Guinness anytime you want.  It means you drink it at home.  Now getting U2 to your house, or some other less expensive way to see them, that's another thing.  Or finding another night spot where you can get a $2 Guinness...that will be a challenge as well.

i think a few Guinnesses is a good bet to get any Irishmen to come over to your house
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on April 03, 2009, 01:49:18 pm
Not the one's with taste, according to Doctor Doom.


For the folks who are using beer as an example, you CAN get $2 Guinness anytime you want.  It means you drink it at home.  Now getting U2 to your house, or some other less expensive way to see them, that's another thing.  Or finding another night spot where you can get a $2 Guinness...that will be a challenge as well.

i think a few Guinnesses is a good bet to get any Irishmen to come over to your house
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: godsshoeshine on April 03, 2009, 01:54:55 pm
would work in jamaica apparently
Quote
THE story goes that once, when rock band U2 was in Jamaica, a lift attendant overheard them talking about beer. Unaware of who the band was, the attendant proceeded to tell Bono and gang that the best Guinness stout was not in Dublin but right there in Jamaica. The band, of course, laughed it off, but he made a bet with them, and that night, took them to a local pub he frequented. Legend has it that Bono took one sip of Jamaican Guinness, and the attendant won his bet.

 http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2008/5/20/lifeliving/21059079&sec=lifeliving
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Jaguar on April 04, 2009, 07:30:11 pm
Some of you people really scare me with how delighted you seem to bend so far over backwards to protect the shady business of insider scalping. I won't even address the standard consumer based scalping since you can actually break that out to be a separate issue. Gesh!

Seth, consider me very appreciative of your stand and your very active fight on this corruption. Some people just don't get that that's racketeering.

You know, with so many who just love to pay extra to be screwed over and submissive to those who are taking them for an extra ride, I think I've found a new career path. Dominatrix! Bend over assholes so I can take you for all you're worth...and you'll love every extra dollar you'll have to pay me for it.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: chaz on April 05, 2009, 12:31:37 am
I'm pretty sure I'll buy some tix to see the last reg season Caps homegame tomorrow from some scalper...game's at 3:00 i'll buy around noon or 1:00 and get face.  So I'll even this thing out for all the outraged masses.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on April 05, 2009, 10:25:52 am
Bend over assholes so I can take you for all you're worth...and you'll love every extra dollar you'll have to pay me for it.

now we're talkin

sign me up
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on April 05, 2009, 11:18:25 am
Bend over assholes so I can take you for all you're worth...and you'll love every extra dollar you'll have to pay me for it.


now we're talkin
sign me up

Well, before you sign up what the hell is the lineup for vfest???

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Rknrldr on April 06, 2009, 09:26:24 am
My head hurts from reading this.. ???
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: xneverwherex on April 06, 2009, 11:25:49 am
this just was in the news today. good news - aside for those trying to buy U2 tix.

Crackdown on ticket resellers

NEW YORK. Sen. Charles Schumer wants to crack down on sky-high ticket prices: Proposed legislation would impose a two-day waiting period before resellers snatch up face-value tickets and jack up prices.


The new rule wouldn?t be enacted before fans buy tickets this morning for U2?s fall concert, Schumer said yesterday, but he hopes to see it pass before Major League Baseball playoffs.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sonickteam2 on April 06, 2009, 11:31:41 am
why would a New York senator care about the MLB playoffs?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sweetcell on April 06, 2009, 01:08:34 pm
why would a New York senator care about the MLB playoffs?

ouch/potw.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: RatBastard on April 06, 2009, 01:56:18 pm
this just was in the news today. good news - aside for those trying to buy U2 tix.

Crackdown on ticket resellers

NEW YORK. Sen. Charles Schumer wants to crack down on sky-high ticket prices: Proposed legislation would impose a two-day waiting period before resellers snatch up face-value tickets and jack up prices.


The new rule wouldn?t be enacted before fans buy tickets this morning for U2?s fall concert, Schumer said yesterday, but he hopes to see it pass before Major League Baseball playoffs.



So TM el al will just hold the scalp pool for two days before channeling them to the 'brokers'.  The law is useless.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Venerable Bede on April 06, 2009, 02:11:05 pm
this just was in the news today. good news - aside for those trying to buy U2 tix.

Crackdown on ticket resellers

NEW YORK. Sen. Charles Schumer wants to crack down on sky-high ticket prices: Proposed legislation would impose a two-day waiting period before resellers snatch up face-value tickets and jack up prices.


The new rule wouldn?t be enacted before fans buy tickets this morning for U2?s fall concert, Schumer said yesterday, but he hopes to see it pass before Major League Baseball playoffs.



So TM el al will just hold the scalp pool for two days before channeling them to the 'brokers'.  The law is useless.
agreed. . .i would love to see how this is enforced. . .what's ebay and craigslist to do?  a number of states already have laws on their books about the resale of tickets, but that doesn't seem to stop people.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: xneverwherex on April 06, 2009, 02:40:19 pm
this just was in the news today. good news - aside for those trying to buy U2 tix.

Crackdown on ticket resellers

NEW YORK. Sen. Charles Schumer wants to crack down on sky-high ticket prices: Proposed legislation would impose a two-day waiting period before resellers snatch up face-value tickets and jack up prices.


The new rule wouldn?t be enacted before fans buy tickets this morning for U2?s fall concert, Schumer said yesterday, but he hopes to see it pass before Major League Baseball playoffs.



So TM el al will just hold the scalp pool for two days before channeling them to the 'brokers'.  The law is useless.

it might be useless - but at least someone is _trying_ to do something. perhaps it will work in some ways, perhaps it wont. but after the springsteen fiasco, something had to do be done.

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Venerable Bede on April 06, 2009, 02:44:33 pm
something had to do be done.
ahhhh yes. . .the "something has to be done" rule of lawmaking. . .it's second only to the "there oughta be a law" rule.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: xneverwherex on April 06, 2009, 02:47:49 pm
something had to do be done.
ahhhh yes. . .the "something has to be done" rule of lawmaking. . .it's second only to the "there oughta be a law" rule.

im not implying a law needed to be made regarding this - but its nice to see _something_ being done (or at least attempting to be done).
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sweetcell on September 01, 2009, 02:22:47 pm
Pssst! Want a Ticket? Hey, I?m Legit. Really. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/30/arts/music/30sisa.html)

interesting read.  selected quotes:

In contrast to the popular image of the ticket trader as a shadowy hustler, the life of the rank-and-file online broker can be surprisingly humdrum. In interviews several small resellers described a job not unlike that of a low-margin day trader. Each morning they scour the Web for passwords to use for special promotions on Ticketmaster, and all day they keep close watch on their secondary-exchange listings, making numerous competitive price adjustments. One New England broker, who also sells office supplies and didn?t want his name used to protect both jobs, said that for this high-maintenance side gig he hopes to make $40,000 a year.

(...)

To reach the widest potential market most brokers list their tickets on exchanges like StubHub, TicketsNow and TicketNetwork. Special software is needed to do that efficiently, and Mr. Vaccaro?s is particularly attractive to the little guys because of one ingenious feature: it allows them to borrow one another?s listings for their own Web sites, advertising what appear to be huge pools of tickets. As a result hundreds of sites are all essentially offering the same seats.

When brokers use the TicketNetwork software, whoever makes the sale gets a commission, even if another party fills the order. This can be great for brokers adept at drawing Web traffic. But it can confuse consumers, who don?t always know whom they are buying from until their transaction has been completed.

(...)

Then, with a wheezy chuckle, Mr. Vaccaro remembered the speech he gave at the first Ticket Summit.

?I know that you?ve all heard stories,? he recalled saying, ?about box-office managers getting cash payoffs, primary ticket outlets selling their tickets directly to brokers, managers selling their tickets to brokers. And I just want to dispel those rumors right now by confirming that they?re all true. This is the way that it was.

?But I think it?s getting better.?

</quotes>
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Reod Dai on September 01, 2009, 06:50:36 pm
Scalping is different from beer reselling -- Scalpers profit without adding value to the transaction, and are therefore essentially leeches on society (much like derivatives traders).   Bars profit because they add value to the beer they're selling -- an enjoyable atmosphere, for example.   

I'm rather surprised this obvious difference needs to be explained.   ::)
Yes, BARS do that.  But when I go to a concert venue, I have already paid for the atmosphere with my ticket.  I'm not even suggesting that concert venues should charge less for alcohol than bars; however, I don't believe that it's too much to ask that they charge the SAME.  After all, I pay to go to a concert venue, but I almost never pay to go to a bar.

I institued a simple policy long ago that I will simply not drink at a venue that charges too much (and as much as I love the 9:30, it's a prime example).  The way I see it, lower alcohol prices would be greatly offset by greater volume sold.  When I can go to a venue like Spaceland and buy a draft pint (of GOOD beer) for $5.50, I'll probably have at least one or two.  And venues like that make me see venues like the 9:30 who charge $6 for a bottle (the price of a six-pack, in some cases, such as with Woodchuck Cider) in a very poor light.  If the price for a bottle of Woodchuck were even $4 (still about four times its store price), I'd probably have one or two.  Most smaller venues aren't that bad, though.  It's the really large venues I can't stand, with their $9 and up plastic cups of crappy beer (thanks to their horrible selection).

I hold a passionate hatred for scalping, and long ago resolved not to buy tickets from scalpers no matter how much I want to see a show.  I'd rather miss a show I really want to see than pay $60 for a $20 ticket and support some lowlife out to ruin it for true fans who just want to see a band play.  However, I will say that I very often buy tickets the night of a show, but only from people who just want to get rid of an extra ticket or two.  I've gotten into many, many sold out shows that way.  I don't know about anyone else, but I really don't know what'll be going on one, two, three months down the road, and will very rarely commit to a show more than a week or two in advance.  That means that I very often have to find tickets for sold-out shows.  I'm all for instituting methods to limit and prevent scalping, but printing names on tickets and checking IDs would completely ruin that option for people like me, and for people who do commit months in advance and end up not being able to make the show.  Ticket selling between fans is completely different from scalping, and any attempt to curb scalping needs to take that into account.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: runwhiteyrun06 on September 01, 2009, 07:06:09 pm
6 dollars for a pack of Woodchuck!? I've never paid less than 8.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: slappy on September 01, 2009, 11:42:40 pm
6 dollars for a pack of Woodchuck!? I've never paid less than 8.

$6.50 at Total Wines stores in VA
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: slappy on September 01, 2009, 11:53:39 pm
Redskins Fans Waited While Brokers Got Tickets
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/01/AR2009090103984.html?hpid=topnews (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/01/AR2009090103984.html?hpid=topnews)

So the Skins Ticket Sales Team is responsible for a small portion of the scalping problem in DC.
I would guess they got their hot little hands on some U2 and McCartney tickets as well.
Danny not knowing about it and being 'livid' is as true as Fox News being 'fair and balanced'.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: RatBastard on September 02, 2009, 07:27:09 am
News does not have the properties of being fair and balanced. Opining does but not news reporting.  Which is exactly what is wrong with 99.999% of the so called news media these days.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Seth Hurwitz on September 02, 2009, 07:45:34 am
Scalping is different from beer reselling -- Scalpers profit without adding value to the transaction, and are therefore essentially leeches on society (much like derivatives traders).   Bars profit because they add value to the beer they're selling -- an enjoyable atmosphere, for example.   

I'm rather surprised this obvious difference needs to be explained.   ::)
Yes, BARS do that.  But when I go to a concert venue, I have already paid for the atmosphere with my ticket.  I'm not even suggesting that concert venues should charge less for alcohol than bars; however, I don't believe that it's too much to ask that they charge the SAME.  After all, I pay to go to a concert venue, but I almost never pay to go to a bar.

I institued a simple policy long ago that I will simply not drink at a venue that charges too much (and as much as I love the 9:30, it's a prime example).  The way I see it, lower alcohol prices would be greatly offset by greater volume sold.  When I can go to a venue like Spaceland and buy a draft pint (of GOOD beer) for $5.50, I'll probably have at least one or two.  And venues like that make me see venues like the 9:30 who charge $6 for a bottle (the price of a six-pack, in some cases, such as with Woodchuck Cider) in a very poor light.  If the price for a bottle of Woodchuck were even $4 (still about four times its store price), I'd probably have one or two.  Most smaller venues aren't that bad, though.  It's the really large venues I can't stand, with their $9 and up plastic cups of crappy beer (thanks to their horrible selection).

I hold a passionate hatred for scalping, and long ago resolved not to buy tickets from scalpers no matter how much I want to see a show.  I'd rather miss a show I really want to see than pay $60 for a $20 ticket and support some lowlife out to ruin it for true fans who just want to see a band play.  However, I will say that I very often buy tickets the night of a show, but only from people who just want to get rid of an extra ticket or two.  I've gotten into many, many sold out shows that way.  I don't know about anyone else, but I really don't know what'll be going on one, two, three months down the road, and will very rarely commit to a show more than a week or two in advance.  That means that I very often have to find tickets for sold-out shows.  I'm all for instituting methods to limit and prevent scalping, but printing names on tickets and checking IDs would completely ruin that option for people like me, and for people who do commit months in advance and end up not being able to make the show.  Ticket selling between fans is completely different from scalping, and any attempt to curb scalping needs to take that into account.

whew...I'm not sure happiness is in your future no matter how all this is handled
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: RatBastard on September 02, 2009, 07:57:05 am
I am not making any statements for what I think prices should be on a damn thing, but it is indeed the buyer who sets the market price.  A seller can ask what the heck he wants.  You have the buyer has the dollars in your hand.  You determine if something is worth the price being asked.  If something is being offered at a price you think it is worth, buy it, if not, don't.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Sir HC on September 02, 2009, 09:56:04 am
If you don't like the beer prices, you can go down the street, grab a beer, and run back for the show.  And why do you assume your ticket price did more than pay for the band and security and all the other workers and that the club makes its money off bar sales.  I know some of the smaller venues where the bands get the door and so what does the venue make?  Beer sales, that is all.  So don't think that your ticket is necessarily paying for the venue, because it might not be, just for a greedy band.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: slappy on September 02, 2009, 10:08:42 am
Add Van Halen and Ticketmaster to the pile.
http://beatcrave.com/2009-09-01/van-halen-caught-up-in-scalping-scheme/ (http://beatcrave.com/2009-09-01/van-halen-caught-up-in-scalping-scheme/)

Van Halen Caught Up In Scalping Scheme
By Jeffrey Hyatt

The Van Halen classic ?Runnin? With the Devil? might very well be changed to ?Runnin? With the Scalpers? now that the rock band has been alleged to have conspired with ticket scalpers during a fall 2007 tour in order to reap an extra $1 million, according to a report by the Wall Street Journal.

The plan, part of a Ticketmaster initiative named ?Project Showtime,? was devised to grab a piece of the exorbitant prices charged by scalpers, which sometimes surpass a general ticket?s face value by hundreds (often thousands) of dollars.

Van Halen?s part, according to the paper, was involved in farming out up to 500 of the best seats from about 20 of its concerts with original frontman David Lee Roth to secondary ticket brokers.

Irving Azoff, Van Halen?s manager and Ticketmaster?s chief executive, is said to have spearheaded the scheme in the summer of 2007.

Under the proposed plan, the scalpers (who prefer the term ?brokers?) would keep 30% of the marked-up ticket sale price for themselves, and the remaining 70% was divided among Ticketmaster, the band and its handlers, the paper reported. Van Halen?s involvement in ?07 was actually part of a test run.

Ticketmaster, which is now pursuing a merger with Live Nation, was negotiating with ticket brokers such as Ace Ticket, a Boston-based broker, Barry?s Tickets Service in Los Angeles and Elite Ticket Service in New York to launch the above-mentioned ?Project Showtime.?

The project also included negotiations with concert-promoter AEG Live, and Madison Square Garden-parent MSG Entertainment.

One of the main reasons ?Project Showtime? fell apart was because Ticketmaster execs were gun-shy about going into business with the leaders of an industry they had long opposed, which makes sense. From a purely illegal standpoint, the deal makes sense. But clearly the trust meter in the room between the brokers and Ticketmaster was registering a 1 out of a possible 10, so everyone just walks away thinking about ?what if??

Of course, before the deal was completely shelved for good the ticket brokers had already been given tickets to scalp, and rock stars Van Halen pocketed an extra $1 million.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 10:10:00 am
I am not making any statements for what I think prices should be on a damn thing, but it is indeed the buyer who sets the market price.  A seller can ask what the heck he wants.  You have the buyer has the dollars in your hand.  You determine if something is worth the price being asked.  If something is being offered at a price you think it is worth, buy it, if not, don't.

WHat market? One seller is not a market!

It is the SELLER in a monopoly environment that determines the price. Or you think the 930 does not determine the price of the beer they sell? Since there is no possible competitor its a "take it or leave it" situation.

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: chaz on September 02, 2009, 10:20:32 am
Jesus how long does this debate have to go on.  Beer prices will continue to rise and scalpers are not going anywhere.  If it bothers you that much, stay home.  Otherwise quit yer bitchin.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 10:25:28 am
Jesus how long does this debate have to go on.  Beer prices will continue to rise and scalpers are not going anywhere.  If it bothers you that much, stay home.  Otherwise quit yer bitchin.

Talk about bitchin! I count four five different bitches in 30 words! Good stuff Chaz!
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: chaz on September 02, 2009, 10:36:50 am
Jesus how long does this debate have to go on.  Beer prices will continue to rise and scalpers are not going anywhere.  If it bothers you that much, stay home.  Otherwise quit yer bitchin.

Talk about bitchin! I count four five different bitches in 30 words! Good stuff Chaz!
Don't you have a milk bottle to suck on somewhere?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 10:43:50 am
Jesus how long does this debate have to go on.  Beer prices will continue to rise and scalpers are not going anywhere.  If it bothers you that much, stay home.  Otherwise quit yer bitchin.

Talk about bitchin! I count four five different bitches in 30 words! Good stuff Chaz!
Don't you have a milk bottle to suck on somewhere?

More bitching.

WHy don't you ram the milk bottle up your ass nice and hard?

YOU know asshole if you don't like the topic don't open the thread, ok? 

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 10:52:03 am
Anyways the topic was started by Seth who is against ticket scalping. I think comparing ticket scalping to gouging people on beer sales is not a very good comparison.

With all these things coming out about promoters etc acting in concert with scalpers there may emerge some concensus on the need to do something.. I thought I saw a paper today with a cover about the Redskins now scalping tickets.. now you got the Van Halen story..add that to the Springsteen, the ticketmaster-Live Nation proposed merger and maybe there will be some sort of reaction to finally do something..

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: chaz on September 02, 2009, 10:52:24 am
OK hutch...you can go back to your delusions of adequacy and pointless ramplings on the politics and injust practices the 9:30 has perpetrated upon you.

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on September 02, 2009, 10:53:36 am
wow  :o
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 10:55:55 am
OK hutch...you can go back to your delusions of adequacy and pointless ramplings on the politics and injust practices the 9:30 has perpetrated upon you.



Listen this thread was started by Seth and its about scalping.

WHy don't you go back to school and learn how to spell?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: sweetcell on September 02, 2009, 10:58:03 am
beer: virtually limitless supply, can be consumed at almost any time, and is sold by many vendors.

tickets to a show: none of the above.

next.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Jaguar on September 02, 2009, 10:59:55 am
(http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2009/09/rothwell_w_cottontop08_0399.jpg)

Oh, dear!

Welcome to the Monkey House! (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/09/monkeymusic/)
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: chaz on September 02, 2009, 11:00:50 am
Now that the old spelling trump card has been pulled I know I am truly backed into a corner.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 11:03:02 am
Now that the old spelling trump card has been pulled I know I am truly backed into a corner.
;D ok thats funny.

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: RatBastard on September 02, 2009, 11:03:38 am
I am not making any statements for what I think prices should be on a damn thing, but it is indeed the buyer who sets the market price.  A seller can ask what the heck he wants.  You have the buyer has the dollars in your hand.  You determine if something is worth the price being asked.  If something is being offered at a price you think it is worth, buy it, if not, don't.

WHat market? One seller is not a market!

It is the SELLER in a monopoly environment that determines the price. Or you think the 930 does not determine the price of the beer they sell? Since there is no possible competitor its a "take it or leave it" situation.



You are WAY too angry to have an intelligent discussion on this topic.  The fallacies in your argument are numerous, starting perhaps with invalid premise and continuing to irrelevant conclusion and straw man.  Others as well exist.  It really boils down to one simple thing.  If you think someone is charging too much, keep your money in your pocket.  If enough people agree with you, prices will change.  End of story.  I'm out.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: James Ford on September 02, 2009, 11:06:28 am
Anyways the topic was started by Seth who is against ticket scalping. I think comparing ticket scalping to gouging people on beer sales is not a very good comparison.

With all these things coming out about promoters etc acting in concert with scalpers there may emerge some concensus on the need to do something.. I thought I saw a paper today with a cover about the Redskins now scalping tickets.. now you got the Van Halen story..add that to the Springsteen, the ticketmaster-Live Nation proposed merger and maybe there will be some sort of reaction to finally do something..



consensus
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 11:19:54 am
I am not making any statements for what I think prices should be on a damn thing, but it is indeed the buyer who sets the market price.  A seller can ask what the heck he wants.  You have the buyer has the dollars in your hand.  You determine if something is worth the price being asked.  If something is being offered at a price you think it is worth, buy it, if not, don't.

WHat market? One seller is not a market!

It is the SELLER in a monopoly environment that determines the price. Or you think the 930 does not determine the price of the beer they sell? Since there is no possible competitor its a "take it or leave it" situation.



You are WAY too angry to have an intelligent discussion on this topic.  The fallacies in your argument are numerous, starting perhaps with invalid premise and continuing to irrelevant conclusion and straw man.  Others as well exist.  It really boils down to one simple thing.  If you think someone is charging too much, keep your money in your pocket.  If enough people agree with you, prices will change.  End of story.  I'm out.



People are going to buy beer at rock shows regardless of price. People will often buy something even if they think they are being charged too much.

The fallacies are on your side my friend: 1) there is no market for beer at the 930, 2) Just because people buy something doesn't mean they don' think they are being charged too much. Or you've never overpaid for any item in your life?

The fact that people buy something doesn't make gouging right.

Anyways, to me this thread is about scalping and I said as much that beer prices are not really relevant to that discussion.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: RatBastard on September 02, 2009, 11:21:53 am
I am not making any statements for what I think prices should be on a damn thing, but it is indeed the buyer who sets the market price.  A seller can ask what the heck he wants.  You have the buyer has the dollars in your hand.  You determine if something is worth the price being asked.  If something is being offered at a price you think it is worth, buy it, if not, don't.

WHat market? One seller is not a market!

It is the SELLER in a monopoly environment that determines the price. Or you think the 930 does not determine the price of the beer they sell? Since there is no possible competitor its a "take it or leave it" situation.



You are WAY too angry to have an intelligent discussion on this topic.  The fallacies in your argument are numerous, starting perhaps with invalid premise and continuing to irrelevant conclusion and straw man.  Others as well exist.  It really boils down to one simple thing.  If you think someone is charging too much, keep your money in your pocket.  If enough people agree with you, prices will change.  End of story.  I'm out.



People are going to buy beer at rock shows regardless of price. People will often buy something even if they think they are being charged too much.

The fallacies are on your side my friend: 1) there is no market for beer at the 930, 2) Just because people buy something doesn't mean they dont't hink they are being charged too much.

The fact that people buy something doesn't make gouging right.

Anyways, to me this thread is about scalping and I said as much that beer prices are not really relevant to that discussion.

Hasty Generalization, Fallacy of Equivocation
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 11:26:50 am
Ayways ticket scalping is bad.

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: wml7 on September 02, 2009, 12:06:30 pm
yes it's very very bad anyone want to buy a yeah yeah yeahs ticket for 100 dollars?  ;D
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: chaz on September 02, 2009, 12:16:05 pm
Ayways ticket scalping is bad.


Go back to school and learn how to spell.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: gaaaaaaaaah on September 02, 2009, 12:20:33 pm
Ayways ticket scalping is bad.


Go back to school and learn how to spell.
It's even funnier because he edited the post, and still missed the typo.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: chaz on September 02, 2009, 12:29:04 pm
Ayways ticket scalping is bad.


Go back to school and learn how to spell.
It's even funnier because he edited the post, and still missed the typo.
Normally I don't nitpick over spelling...but shit if he's gonna get pissy with me on spelling I'd expect him live up to the standards he expects from us.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: hutch on September 02, 2009, 12:32:25 pm
Ayways ticket scalping is bad.


Go back to school and learn how to spell.
It's even funnier because he edited the post, and still missed the typo.
Normally I don't nitpick over spelling...but shit if he's gonna get pissy with me on spelling I'd expect him live up to the standards he expects from us.

You go boy!

Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: chaz on September 02, 2009, 01:56:50 pm
Shocker...The Post reports on the Skins ticket office's many unscrupulous activities.

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/01/AR2009090103984.html?hpid=topnews (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/01/AR2009090103984.html?hpid=topnews)

This one is a double fuck you...lining the pockets of the brokers AND The Danny's pockets at the same time.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: ggw on March 02, 2010, 12:59:14 am
4 Charged in Concert Ticket Resale Scheme (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/technology/02ticket.html?hpw)
By JOSEPH PLAMBECK

Federal prosecutors in New Jersey said on Monday that four men operating under the name Wiseguy Tickets had broken into online sites, buying more than one million tickets to some of the country?s most popular musical and sporting events and then reselling them for more than $25 million in profit.

In its 43-count indictment, the prosecutors say the men built a computer network that created thousands of fake accounts and built a program that could outsmart the ticketing software that creates oddly shaped letters intended to require human verification.

The events affected by the scheme cut across a wide swath of the entertainment business, from Hannah Montana concerts to Broadway shows and New York Yankees playoff games. The verification systems of many major online ticket vendors, including Ticketmaster, Telecharge and Major League Baseball, were breached.

The company would search only for those seats that they believed could be sold for a premium, sometimes at more than $1,000 over face value.

?At a time when the Internet has brought convenience and fairness to the ticket marketplace, these defendants gamed the system with a sophisticated fraud operation that generated over $25 million in illicit profits,? Paul J. Fishman, a United States attorney, said in a statement.

Three of the indicted men, Kenneth Lowson, 40, Kristofer Kirsch, 37, and Joel Stevenson, 37, surrendered on Monday. Mr. Lowson is being held until his lawyers can present a bail package to the court, while Mr. Stevenson and Mr. Kirsch were released on bail.

The fourth man, Faisal Nahdi, 36, is out of the country and arrangements are being made for his surrender, according to the United States attorney?s office.

As early as 2005, Ticketmaster, now part of Live Nation Entertainment, contacted Wiseguy about improper ticket buying. In 2008, Ticketmaster contacted the companies hosting Wiseguy?s computers in an effort to stop the use of the automated programs.


Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: vansmack on March 02, 2010, 01:10:20 am
Which one of them is ChokeyChicken?
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: vansmack on January 25, 2021, 05:02:29 pm
I thought about resuscitating the chokey chicken thread, but opted for this instead:

3 Scalpers Fined for using bots to scoop up tickets on Ticketmaster (https://www.pcmag.com/news/3-scalpers-fined-for-using-bots-to-scoop-up-tickets-on-ticketmaster)
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI on January 25, 2021, 05:12:11 pm
I thought about resuscitating the chokey chicken thread,
I still have a DUI-committer to out, IIRC.
Title: Re: My position on scalping...
Post by: methylene blue-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on January 25, 2021, 05:16:09 pm
I thought about resuscitating the chokey chicken thread,
I still have a DUI-committer to out, IIRC.
I have no idea what any of this means...but found some classic hutch

WHy don't you ram the milk bottle up your ass nice and hard?

This was a funny line
The FTC originally planned on fining the defendants more than $31 million. But none of them could pay the amount. So for now, the regulator has suspended demanding the full fine.