930 Forums

=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Justin Tonation on November 23, 2015, 07:15:16 pm

Title: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Justin Tonation on November 23, 2015, 07:15:16 pm
Donald Trump is a fascist.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: killsaly on November 23, 2015, 07:21:56 pm
Relevant further listening...

America's Next Top Dictator
https://soundcloud.com/unpopularopinion/unp-103

The Last Trump Show
https://soundcloud.com/unpopularopinion/unp-105

Reading:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/why-comparing-donald-trump-to-hitler-makes-perfect-sense/
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Space Freely on November 23, 2015, 07:46:39 pm
This seems like an odd place to post this as it's highly doubtful there are any Trump voters who post or even lurk here...am I wrong?
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: hutch on November 23, 2015, 10:20:20 pm
I will resist urge to point out that James Ford and Donald Trump seem like two peas in a pod...

but sometimes wonder if people know what terms like "socialism", "fascism", "communism"  or "capitalism" even mean anymore..

have heard President Obama called a fascist and a socialist...
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ye-ole-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on November 23, 2015, 11:37:24 pm
This seems like an odd place to post this as it's highly doubtful there are any Trump voters who post or even lurk here...am I wrong?
always pegged GGW as a supporter, but probably voted for Gary Johnson in 2012

Rat B (who's been quiet for a long time)..sure he loves the Donald

other than a few closet republicans...a indie rock club board doesn't typically attract anything but liberals (god love em)
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ggw on November 24, 2015, 12:25:45 am
GGW doesn't vote (except in the occasional local election).  To be honest, I really don't see much of a difference between Trump and Clinton.  Or Sanders and Carson.  Or any of them.  The American two-party system is exclusively about each party maintaining and expanding their own collective wealth and power.  If you think any of these people really give a shit about me, you, or the average Joe, you're an idiot.  In theory, their self-interest should overlap with the common good somewhat.  But I find it less a Venn diagram than a couple of random boobs floating in their own orbit.   
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: killsaly on November 24, 2015, 02:56:26 am
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12240129_10153704067386054_3555688817429595463_n.jpg?oh=acbd61228192d6f30ee2b39817b4d8a3&oe=56E13E27)
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Relaxer on November 24, 2015, 10:17:11 am
GGW doesn't vote (except in the occasional local election).  To be honest, I really don't see much of a difference between Trump and Clinton.  Or Sanders and Carson.  Or any of them.  The American two-party system is exclusively about each party maintaining and expanding their own collective wealth and power.  If you think any of these people really give a shit about me, you, or the average Joe, you're an idiot.  In theory, their self-interest should overlap with the common good somewhat.  But I find it less a Venn diagram than a couple of random boobs floating in their own orbit.   

Personally I think it's quite idiotic to think that the governance of, say, Cruz or Sanders would be similar. Just consider how very very different this country would be if Gore had beaten Bush in 2000. I mean, it's staggering to consider, and I'm not saying it would've been better or worse. But with Gore, it's very likely we have no Iraq war, no Patriot Act, no Roberts or Alito on the Supreme Court, we don't have the 2008 financial crisis at nearly the level that we did, and Obama does not become president in 2008.

The differences are staggering, and I can't understand anyone who thinks this way. It's basically the attitude of most Trump supporters who have no idea what's going on, are mad for no real reason, are wrong or misinformed about everything, and aren't interested in learning anything.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ggw on November 24, 2015, 10:24:36 am
The idea that there would have been no Iraq war in a Gore administration is laughable.  It probably would have been better executed, but it still would have happened.  Gore was always a hawk.  See Iraq 1991 and 1998; see Kosovo; and he and Clinton made use of similarly exaggerated intelligence to justify Kosovo to others.  Read Kenneth Pollack to get a sense of just how huge a threat the Clinton team considered Iraq and how certain they also were of Saddam's WMDs.  Not to mention the general thirst for blood after 9/11.  All the main Dems voted for the Iraq Resolution.

And if you are looking for people to pin the 2008 crisis on - try Bob Rubin and Larry Summers championing the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the Clinton Administration's push to expand homeownership through mandating that Fannie and Freddie dedicate a substantial portion of their federal guarantees to "lesser qualified" borrowers and "underserved communities" (aka sub-prime).

Or just keep bleating the tired old "Bush is bad!" shibboleth.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Relaxer on November 24, 2015, 10:39:34 am
The idea that there would have been no Iraq war in a Gore administration is laughable.  It probably would have been better executed, but it still would have happened.  Gore was always a hawk.  See Iraq 1991 and 1998; see Kosovo; and he and Clinton made use of similarly exaggerated intelligence to justify Kosovo to others.  Read Kenneth Pollack to get a sense of just how huge a threat the Clinton team considered Iraq and how certain they also were of Saddam's WMDs.  Not to mention the general thirst for blood after 9/11.  All the main Dems voted for the Iraq Resolution.

Nah, there's no way Gore goes into Iraq the same way or even at all. Iraq was not a top-of-mind threat, and Gore would've been perfectly satisfied with an Afghan war. He would not have tried to fight two wars in two parts of the world. The whole WMD thing was born and raised by Cheney, Bush and co. Read "Days of Fire" by Peter Baker (who is a far more objective observer than Kenneth Pollack, who wrote a book on why the US should go to war with Iraq). Invading Iraq was not an agenda item that any president would've gotten around to. It was created, developed and executed by the Bush administration, period. Saying otherwise is just making up history.

And you're old enough that you shouldn't conveniently forget that after 9/11, anyone who even remotely tried to introduce nuance or thoughtfulness into the national security discussion was totally pilloried. Max Cleland, a war hero paraplegic, was called a traitor for questioning the homeland security movement and got voted out of office.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Relaxer on November 24, 2015, 10:42:24 am
Yeah, you're right. Deregulation and the fact that the 2008 meltdown occurred in year 7 of the Bush administration are totally irrelevant. "It was Clinton's fault!" say right wing boobs who pick and choose their facts like Sunday morning outfits.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: sweetcell on November 24, 2015, 11:38:30 am
not only is trump a fascist, but he has superhuman vision too!  not only did he see, with his own eyes, people jumping from the twin towers on 9/11 despite living 4 miles away; he also saw muslims celebrating the terrorist attacks in NJ!  amazing!  also, he's good at real estate and knows that boilers are put in the basement.  how can people possibly NOT vote for him?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/politics/donald-trump-september-11-muslims-celebrating/index.html
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: hutch on November 24, 2015, 09:32:59 pm
totally agree with Relaxer.. the reductionist "argument" that all politicians are the same and there is no difference between them doesn't hold water... I'm surprised someone would say this in light of the Bush years debacle...... First of all a Gore administration would have taken the threat seriously and 9-11 might never have happened.. second of all a Gore administration would not have been hijacked by a bunch of neocon wackjobs...

Even if you think the only thing different between Gore and Bush would have been the Supreme Court justices- and I think one has to accept that- the difference between them would have been staggering..and the impact of those appointments lasts for DECADES...
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ye-ole-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on November 24, 2015, 11:20:28 pm
...... First of all a Gore ...and 9-11 might never have happened..
I think the probability is much more likely, but OBL fermented his anger under Clinton lest we not forget
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: azaghal1981 on November 25, 2015, 08:08:28 am
I won't.
They are.
Remember that one time he posted here that Sam Harris would make for a good president?
Here's this. (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/new-atheism-old-empire/)

The "New Atheists" have been preaching the rhetoric you've been hearing from Trump for the last couple weeks since the Iraq war if not longer.
 
I will resist urge to point out that James Ford and Donald Trump seem like two peas in a pod...
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Space Freely on November 25, 2015, 09:48:24 am
I won't.
They are.
Remember that one time he posted here that Sam Harris would make for a good president?
Here's this. (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/new-atheism-old-empire/)

The "New Atheists" have been preaching the rhetoric you've been hearing from Trump for the last couple weeks since the Iraq war if not longer.
 
I will resist urge to point out that James Ford and Donald Trump seem like two peas in a pod...

I'm sorry if you're too blind to see the difference between Sam Harris and Donald Trump.

 That's kind of like saying Glen Greenwald is part of ISIS just because he's an Islamic apologist.

There's plenty of space in between a nutjob like Donald Trump and a nutjob like Glen Greenwald, and I think Sam Harris (and I) inhabit that space.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/vicious-and-misleading-atheist-bashing/

http://www.gspellchecker.com/2015/02/luke-savage-doubles-down-on-dishonest-hackery-lukewsavage/
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: hutch on November 25, 2015, 11:17:16 am
I won't.
They are.
Remember that one time he posted here that Sam Harris would make for a good president?
Here's this. (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/new-atheism-old-empire/)

The "New Atheists" have been preaching the rhetoric you've been hearing from Trump for the last couple weeks since the Iraq war if not longer.
 
I will resist urge to point out that James Ford and Donald Trump seem like two peas in a pod...

I'm sorry if you're too blind to see the difference between Sam Harris and Donald Trump.

 That's kind of like saying Glen Greenwald is part of ISIS just because he's an Islamic apologist.

There's plenty of space in between a nutjob like Donald Trump and a nutjob like Glen Greenwald, and I think Sam Harris (and I) inhabit that space.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/vicious-and-misleading-atheist-bashing/

http://www.gspellchecker.com/2015/02/luke-savage-doubles-down-on-dishonest-hackery-lukewsavage/

ok then speaking honestly and beyond the jokes I don't get your position... is it that there is a disproportionate amount of violent people or ass backwards people in the muslim world? if so, do you have position on what to do about it?
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Space Freely on November 25, 2015, 11:36:58 am
I won't.
They are.
Remember that one time he posted here that Sam Harris would make for a good president?
Here's this. (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/new-atheism-old-empire/)

The "New Atheists" have been preaching the rhetoric you've been hearing from Trump for the last couple weeks since the Iraq war if not longer.
 
I will resist urge to point out that James Ford and Donald Trump seem like two peas in a pod...

I'm sorry if you're too blind to see the difference between Sam Harris and Donald Trump.

 That's kind of like saying Glen Greenwald is part of ISIS just because he's an Islamic apologist.

There's plenty of space in between a nutjob like Donald Trump and a nutjob like Glen Greenwald, and I think Sam Harris (and I) inhabit that space.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/vicious-and-misleading-atheist-bashing/

http://www.gspellchecker.com/2015/02/luke-savage-doubles-down-on-dishonest-hackery-lukewsavage/

ok then speaking honestly and beyond the jokes I don't get your position... is it that there is a disproportionate amount of violent people or ass backwards people in the muslim world? if so, do you have position on what to do about it?


I'm sure I could find articles and quotes that better summarize my view than I can. Admittedly, I'm not the best writer, and I'm on a short schedule today with little time for long political discussion...but in a nutshell:

My position is that there are a disproportionate number of conservative, anti-progressive people in the Muslim world...wiith views much more conservative and dangerous than the integrated, more secular Muslims who live her in the US (see http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/) This is due to people with power and money pushing a hardline version of the Koran that is antithetical to life in the Western World.

What is the solution? Working with secular and liberal Muslims and "ex-Muslims" who are still connected to the culture to push Islam toward a more progressive direction, a direction Christianity has already been pushed in Europe and the United States.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ye-ole-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on November 25, 2015, 12:10:25 pm
Working with secular and liberal Muslims and "ex-Muslims" who are still connected to the culture to push Islam toward a more progressive direction

I know I'm being very foolish to put my foot in this...but...

I think that Sam Harris, Bill M and even Space have a point that keeps getting shrugged off as being a racist or a bigot.  People tend to quickly respond, but don't really address the issue they are trying to bring up and discuss seriously. (unlike Donald who is not trying to talk seriously about the issue)


I'm extremely liberal and Human Rights, Women's Rights and Freedom to practice your own religion are important to me.

These are things I really stand for and vehemently defend...might even don a army uniform to defend them (total pacifist though...so don't think they'd have me)


But there is a hard line of the Muslim world that believe these things are totally acceptable:
Genital Mutilation
Honor Killings
Forced marriage
Apostasy
People of Religion running courts and making decisions on someone's life on a book that is centauries old
Death penalties for Art or Sexual preference


I don't think you can have it both ways
I don't believe in freedom in religion if the religion holds those things as tenants

That we can happily look at those serious offenses and shrug them off...is being ignorant
and the Politically Correct crowd will not even let us have the converstaion

Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Space Freely on November 25, 2015, 02:47:24 pm
Trump talkers please forgive me for veering off thread slightly. In regard to Sam Harris, I think this piece sums it up pretty well. It also addresses much more eloquently and longwindedly, the question Hutch asked me.

Note: This is the full version of this interview, not the censored one that appeared in Salon.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/sam-harris-the-salon-interview

Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ggw on November 25, 2015, 04:56:10 pm
First of all a Gore administration would have taken the threat seriously and 9-11 might never have happened

Apparently you started your Thanksgiving heavy drinking and drug use a couple of days early.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: hutch on November 25, 2015, 06:28:34 pm
First of all a Gore administration would have taken the threat seriously and 9-11 might never have happened

Apparently you started your Thanksgiving heavy drinking and drug use a couple of days early.


you can't prove it would have happened  but I can say it might not have happened.

why are you so sure??

personally I don't think it would have happened... I think a Gore administration would have taken the threat seriously..something that we know the Bush administration did not do.

Always amusing what a pass Bush gets on that... Trump has it 100% right.. He did not keep us safe.. 9-11 happened on his watch.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ggw on November 25, 2015, 06:42:55 pm
That shits crazier than anything Jaguar ever posted.  Are you seriously saying that if Al Gore was elected that 9-11 would not have happened?
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Relaxer on November 25, 2015, 06:49:22 pm
You're making some powerful arguments here ggw
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ggw on November 25, 2015, 07:47:34 pm
Why am I so sure? Because both Jamie Rubin and Ken Bacon told me so. 
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: hutch on November 25, 2015, 09:38:27 pm
That shits crazier than anything Jaguar ever posted.  Are you seriously saying that if Al Gore was elected that 9-11 would not have happened?

Lets try a third time: I'm saying it MIGHT not have happened... which is a fact.. it MIGHT not have happened..

As far as if you want to know my personal opinion- unfounded.. more gut instinct etc..- yes I think 9-11 would not have happened under an Al Gore presidency.. for starters the national security briefing provided during the transition would have bee taken seriously and not dismissed by the Bush folk....Moreover, the insane overreaction by Bush and his administration- hijacked by neocons- would not have happened either..no pointless war in Iraq.. no ISIS.. I could go on but I'm sure you have enough...

The public's failure to take into account that Bush failed us on 9-11 (and the days after where he disappeared, you know after the goat story and deer in headlights look.. you may not remember - perhaps you are too young- but Giuliani was virtual President for those critical days after 9-11 where everyone was freaking out.. the celebrated Bush bullhorn "moment" happened a few days after 9-11) AND to consider that the Iraq war is the direct cause of Daesh strains credulity but then again the American people have never been known for their brilliance and the number of wars they've been led into under false pretenses is astonishing (Vietnam, WWII, Spanish American War, etc etc.).. 

Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: azaghal1981 on November 28, 2015, 08:36:27 am
Rhett James Charlie Ford Freely is a racist who mocks the disabled and...wait for it... so is trump. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34930042)

Here's someone who can see making the (very valid) Harris/Trump comparison: http://youtu.be/IPMSwKbY5ms
And here's Noam Chomsky dismissing Sam Harris the way racists like him deserve to be dismissed. (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-limits-of-discourse)
OK I'm done derailing this thread.


I won't.
They are.
Remember that one time he posted here that Sam Harris would make for a good president?
Here's this. (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/new-atheism-old-empire/)

The "New Atheists" have been preaching the rhetoric you've been hearing from Trump for the last couple weeks since the Iraq war if not longer.
 
I will resist urge to point out that James Ford and Donald Trump seem like two peas in a pod...

I'm sorry if you're too blind to see the difference between Sam Harris and Donald Trump.

 That's kind of like saying Glen Greenwald is part of ISIS just because he's an Islamic apologist.

There's plenty of space in between a nutjob like Donald Trump and a nutjob like Glen Greenwald, and I think Sam Harris (and I) inhabit that space.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/vicious-and-misleading-atheist-bashing/

http://www.gspellchecker.com/2015/02/luke-savage-doubles-down-on-dishonest-hackery-lukewsavage/
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: walk,on,by on November 28, 2015, 10:03:39 am
im not going to lie . . . I thought sam harris was one of those god awful crooners, like sam smith or ed sheeran.  so I looked him up, an lookie there, hes . . . aw, who cares who he is.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ye-ole-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on November 28, 2015, 09:03:21 pm
OK I'm done derailing this thread.
not even close,
the thread was looking for derailment
I think it's important to get ALL the opinions out there, like em or not
I'm not defending Spaett Ford-frelly, but don't recall disabled being on his shit-list
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: ye-ole-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on November 28, 2015, 09:18:01 pm
And here's Noam Chomsky dismissing Sam Harris the way racists like him deserve to be dismissed. (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-limits-of-discourse)
btw that's f'n long and not sure it's as damning to SH considering he posted it on his site
It is actually a very interesting exchange
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Space Freely on November 28, 2015, 09:45:50 pm
Rhett James Charlie Ford Freely is a racist who mocks the disabled and...wait for it... so is trump. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34930042)

Here's someone who can see making the (very valid) Harris/Trump comparison: http://youtu.be/IPMSwKbY5ms
And here's Noam Chomsky dismissing Sam Harris the way racists like him deserve to be dismissed. (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-limits-of-discourse)
OK I'm done derailing this thread.


I won't.
They are.
Remember that one time he posted here that Sam Harris would make for a good president?
Here's this. (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/new-atheism-old-empire/)

The "New Atheists" have been preaching the rhetoric you've been hearing from Trump for the last couple weeks since the Iraq war if not longer.
 
I will resist urge to point out that James Ford and Donald Trump seem like two peas in a pod...

I'm sorry if you're too blind to see the difference between Sam Harris and Donald Trump.

 That's kind of like saying Glen Greenwald is part of ISIS just because he's an Islamic apologist.

There's plenty of space in between a nutjob like Donald Trump and a nutjob like Glen Greenwald, and I think Sam Harris (and I) inhabit that space.

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/vicious-and-misleading-atheist-bashing/

http://www.gspellchecker.com/2015/02/luke-savage-doubles-down-on-dishonest-hackery-lukewsavage/

And you're a bigot for lumping everyone together as a "racist" who doesn't fit your narrow vision of the world. See Sidehatch's spirited rant above, which very well synthesizes and states everything I feel.

Instead of simply shrugging off anyone who doesn't agree with your views as a "racist" why don't you share with us your reaction to Sidehatch's comments??? Do you find the results of the Pew Forum study at all troubling?
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Space Freely on November 28, 2015, 10:00:10 pm
OK I'm done derailing this thread.
not even close,
the thread was looking for derailment
I think it's important to get ALL the opinions out there, like em or not
I'm not defending Spaett Ford-frelly, but don't recall disabled being on his shit-list

Yeah, not sure where he's coming from with that one. Hard to understand his personal animosity toward me.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: stevewizzle on November 28, 2015, 10:17:54 pm
i know exactly what azag is referring to and it's unquestionably mocking a very specific disability.

and to top it off, SF is now pretending he has "no idea where he's coming from with that one".

and pointing this out just depresses me.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: Space Freely on November 28, 2015, 10:42:51 pm
i know exactly what azag is referring to and it's unquestionably mocking a very specific disability.

and to top it off, SF is now pretending he has "no idea where he's coming from with that one".

and pointing this out just depresses me.

Wow, talking about attempting to derail a thread.

I meant exactly what I said. Anybody who had read anything by Sam Harris (and I mean actually read what SAm Harris wrote, not just read what REza or Greenwald or Chomsky or some young politically correct idiot in Salon or whatever wrote), and would conflate what SAm says with what the Trump says, must be pretty blind in their narrow vision of how they see the world.

I haven't listened to Sam's thoughts yet on Trump, but read an interview where he refers to Carson as a "moron". Given that Trump spouts much of the same nonsense as Carson, I can't imagine Harris has a high view of Trump. So again, I think this is a case of azag blindly sweeping anybody he doesn't agree with into his little "racist" dustpan.
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: walk,on,by on November 29, 2015, 12:33:55 am
I'm on my phone, or I would post a drag queen gif, going, "gurrl."
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: killsaly on November 29, 2015, 12:51:14 am
/
Title: Re: Donald Trump is a fascist
Post by: kosmo vinyl on November 29, 2015, 07:09:24 am
And this concludes this years forum production of a thanksgiving fest gone awry.  Please return your seats to their upright positions and continue  discussing beer, noise shows and now much fun Twangirl's English Beat DJ set was...  and don't forget to tip your bartenders...