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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: hutch on June 01, 2020, 01:54:18 pm

Title: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 01, 2020, 01:54:18 pm
I am all ears


Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 01, 2020, 02:00:36 pm
I think economic and educational opportunity is a part of it

I don’t see this country enacting the necessary changes or investment
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 01, 2020, 02:21:44 pm
The only organization I support financially


I attend their annual event every year


This is run on a shoestring budget and helps DC black kids graduate high school, apply to college and finish college

We are talking about kids who are usually the first in their families to graduate high school and/or go to college


The guy who runs it and does most of the work is a modern day Jesus Christ in my opinion: Paul Pennimann

Got tired of tutoring rich kids and moved to Anacostia to really get involved helping kids..

He gets results



https://risedc.org/
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Yada on June 01, 2020, 02:36:13 pm
The same way you end Covid 19. You can't.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 01, 2020, 02:42:40 pm
You have to minimize it just as you would with Covid


You don’t ignore it and say hey life goes on (obviously not saying you are)


I have ideas for things government could do but the organization I cited above is addressing the impact of systemic racism one kid at a time

People are doing a ton of virtue signaling right now but I am telling you we can do stuff and person by person over decades we can make change

Unfortunately as a wise man once said change is hard

For an example we all know: Baltimore


Think we can’t address it? Unfortunately it costs time and money...I think we need a Marshall Plan for it
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: rich_WDC on June 01, 2020, 05:33:53 pm
Here's a slow, incremental step:

Quit teaching Black History month in kindergarten and early grades.

Doing so just calls out to kids that there must be something different about people who have certain degrees of melanin for skin color.

MLK?  George Washington Carver?  Frederick Douglass?    Teach about them as great Americans; not great black Americans.

Kids don't need to learn to categorize racially. 

Perhaps around Grade 4 the history of slavery and resulting badness etc etc is appropriate to fold in to a curriculum.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 01, 2020, 05:53:37 pm
^interesting take and not one I've heard
But my feeling that is not really a big factor in the racist actions of others?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on June 01, 2020, 06:13:04 pm
End homeschooling. Mandate all students attend public school. MASSIVE busing.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 01, 2020, 06:22:55 pm
End homeschooling. Mandate all students attend public school. MASSIVE busing.
not 100% homeschooling is the problem

but all kids that go to private schools now have to go to public schools...yeah that'll go over well

bussing...I do think there are some benefits and have heard it was good for a lot of people involved
but there is the 1 hour each way commute to kids
I think the whole property tax->funds for schools is a bad system and makes it so the kids in rich communities get "Private-school-lite' style public education, where kids in poor communities barely get an education


Maybe they should do something like foreign exchange students and everyone has to do a lottery-style placement for a year?

I have always felt a year of mandatory service should be for all 18yr olds
but that service can be all sorts of things.  As long as they have to leave home and live/work with others outside of their community
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Yada on June 01, 2020, 06:27:26 pm
Here's a slow, incremental step:

Quit teaching Black History month in kindergarten and early grades.

Doing so just calls out to kids that there must be something different about people who have certain degrees of melanin for skin color.

MLK?  George Washington Carver?  Frederick Douglass?    Teach about them as great Americans; not great black Americans.

Kids don't need to learn to categorize racially. 

Perhaps around Grade 4 the history of slavery and resulting badness etc etc is appropriate to fold in to a curriculum.

I'll tell you what Rich, I've thought about this a lot and to myself have considered this a good idea but have never brought it up in fear of being labeled a racist.

I have a kindergarten aged child who has been around children and adults of color since the day she was born. Not once in her short life had she EVER mentioned skin color until this year and it all stemmed from learning about MLK and black history month. She now consistently questions people and being mean to black people, "why did Martin Luther King get his head blown off" (said by other kids on her bus), etc.

We also have some friends that legitimately talk to their kids about intense racial shit at incredibly young ages. I just don't know what to do.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 01, 2020, 07:54:53 pm
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/01/bets-robert-johnson-calls-for-14-trillion-of-reparations-for-slavery.html
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: lily1 on June 01, 2020, 08:32:09 pm
First and foremost, recognize that right off the bat if you are born white, you will always be one step ahead, even if born into poverty.

You'd be surprised how few white people truly reflect on that fact.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Space Freely on June 01, 2020, 09:15:29 pm
First and foremost, recognize that right off the bat if you are born white, you will always be one step ahead, even if born into poverty.

You'd be surprised how few white people truly reflect on that fact.

Do the children of coalminers in Appalachia have a leg up on Jay-Z and Beyonce's kids?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Space Freely on June 01, 2020, 09:17:18 pm
Here's a slow, incremental step:

Quit teaching Black History month in kindergarten and early grades.

Doing so just calls out to kids that there must be something different about people who have certain degrees of melanin for skin color.

MLK?  George Washington Carver?  Frederick Douglass?    Teach about them as great Americans; not great black Americans.

Kids don't need to learn to categorize racially. 

Perhaps around Grade 4 the history of slavery and resulting badness etc etc is appropriate to fold in to a curriculum.

this is kind of a tip of the iceberg thing that acts like we're post-racism
cops routinely kill black people now, it seems
this is a micro detail
like a band aid on a bullet wound
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on June 01, 2020, 09:41:47 pm
Richmond is kinda a mess right now. Cops without warning tear gased a large, totally peaceful group of protestors 30 minutes before curfew. Also cops are spitting on arrested people. All on video.  Mayor has issued a blanket invitation for people to come to city hall so he can apologize tomorrow at noon which is going to get WILD.

Crazy anger on social media even from old people who haven’t posted about this at all.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 02, 2020, 03:33:12 am
First and foremost, recognize that right off the bat if you are born white, you will always be one step ahead, even if born into poverty.

You'd be surprised how few white people truly reflect on that fact.

Do the children of coalminers in Appalachia have a leg up on Jay-Z and Beyonce's kids?

the french have a wonderful expressions that goes l'exception confirme la règle - "the exception confirms the rule".  in other words, if you have to reach for an extreme to "prove" your point, you haven't proven your point at all. the fact that there is an exception proves there is a rule.

v2: "recognize that right off the bat for 99% of those born white, you will always be one step ahead of 99.9% of african-american, even if born into poverty."  there, ya happy?  has the argument changed?  nah.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Space Freely on June 02, 2020, 09:10:32 am
First and foremost, recognize that right off the bat if you are born white, you will always be one step ahead, even if born into poverty.

You'd be surprised how few white people truly reflect on that fact.

Do the children of coalminers in Appalachia have a leg up on Jay-Z and Beyonce's kids?

the french have a wonderful expressions that goes l'exception confirme la règle - "the exception confirms the rule".  in other words, if you have to reach for an extreme to "prove" your point, you haven't proven your point at all. the fact that there is an exception proves there is a rule.

v2: "recognize that right off the bat for 99% of those born white, you will always be one step ahead of 99.9% of african-american, even if born into poverty."  there, ya happy?  has the argument changed?  nah.

I don't know that 99.9% is the exact correct percentage, but I understand and agree with your logic, as well as Lily's general sentiment. I just object when people express things as an absolute when absolute isn't the case. ;)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Heilung4eva on June 02, 2020, 10:22:54 am
Pedanticism always wins, Space.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 02, 2020, 10:43:02 am
Pedanticism always wins, Space.
As adjectives, the difference between didactic and pedantic is that didactic is instructive or intended to teach or demonstrate, especially with regard to morality while pedantic is like a pedant, overly concerned with formal rules and trivial points of learning.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Justin Tonation on June 02, 2020, 12:33:11 pm
Pedanticism always wins, Space.
As adjectives, the difference between didactic and pedantic is that didactic is instructive or intended to teach or demonstrate, especially with regard to morality while pedantic is like a pedant, overly concerned with formal rules and trivial points of learning.

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-21-2015/IBG9Z4.gif)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 02, 2020, 06:04:21 pm
Here's a slow, incremental step:

Quit teaching Black History month in kindergarten and early grades.

Doing so just calls out to kids that there must be something different about people who have certain degrees of melanin for skin color.

MLK?  George Washington Carver?  Frederick Douglass?    Teach about them as great Americans; not great black Americans.

Kids don't need to learn to categorize racially. 

Perhaps around Grade 4 the history of slavery and resulting badness etc etc is appropriate to fold in to a curriculum.

that's a noble sentiment, but it's sticking your head in the sand.  kids see what is going around them, they overhear the news, etc.  pretending that race doesn't exist or isn't important is going to clash with what they know.

not saying anything to kids about race isn't going to work, IMO.  neither is too much enforced racial awareness.  the solution is to be thoughtful and tailor the message to kids.  i really liked this piece:

Rebecca Peretz-Lange
 
I've been seeing lots of posts by really thoughtful folks encouraging people to talk with their white kids about race/racism. There's such beautiful intentions behind these posts, and we as white folks absolutely need to be taking an active role in stopping the pandemic of racial violence at its developmental roots, in our kids. That's why it's so painful for me to see suggestions for conversations that might *not* effectively improve kids' racial beliefs, as intended, and might even make them worse. I'm getting back onto my soapbox to share evidence from cognitive science that

*NOT ALL RACE TALK WITH KIDS IS HELPFUL.*

I'm not saying "don't do it" -- you should!! -- I'm saying that it can very easily backfire. We need to take use evidence, not just our intuitions, to determine what will be effective, given that racism is so easy to inadvertently pass along. Here are 5 different ways that these conversations can inadvertently reinforce racism among young white children (ages 3-8ish), with suggestions for what to say instead:

1) Research shows that young kids' racial beliefs align with the beliefs *they think people around them hold*. The impulse to conform, beliefs-wise, is generally helpful, because it helps kids follow norms and fit into society, but unfortunately it means that *if kids think lots of people are racist, they will also be racist.* So, teaching young children that racism is common can normalize it in dangerous ways.

INSTEAD OF: "Lots of people, and lots of police, are mean to Black people." [establishes a norm of racism]
SAY: "In our family, we like having friends who look all different from each other!" [establishes a norm of appreciating diversity. read on for suggested ways to talk about police and racial disparities]

2) Research shows that kids prefer people who are similar to themselves. Kids absolutely see race, so I'm not saying that by pointing out racial differences you'll will be showing them something they don't already see, but you WILL be amplifying their existing tendency to prefer people who are like them. Research shows that *simply verbally labeling groups is enough to trigger children's tendency to prefer people who are like them.*

INSTEAD OF: "See your skin? You're white! We're white!"
SAY: "You and [Black friend] both love ice-cream!" [highlights shared traits. there ARE great ways to talk about racial differences -- read on to #5 which encourages telling kids about structural differences in people's lived experiences -- but simply labeling groups without any additional context isn't the ideal approach]

3) Research shows that verbally labeling groups of people using noun-phrases (like "Black people") leads kids to view racial groups as biologically "real" categories, promoting prejudice. It's HOW you talk (using race labels), not WHAT you say (good/bad things) that makes the impact here: Even if you're saying neutral or positive things, *labeling racial groups with nouns leads children to view racial groups as biologically real* (and to view someone's race as informative about their intrinsic nature and abilities), promoting prejudice.

INSTEAD OF: "Black people are being treated worse than white people" [important message but still uses nouns to refer to groups of people]
SAY: "This boy, Michael, is Black, and was treated very badly" [adjectives referring to specific individuals. using a specific personal story can actually be very powerful, even though I know we want to convey that racism is systemic and pervasive. for ways to talk about pervasive differences between whole groups of people without triggering kids' intuition that these groups are biologically real, read on!]

4) Research shows that kids prefer "higher-status" groups -- or groups that they see having more social power or having more/nicer stuff. *Pointing out to kids that some racial groups are systematically higher-status or lower-status can therefore lead kids to prefer higher-status groups and be prejudiced against lower-status groups.*

INSTEAD OF: "White people live in nicer neighborhoods than Black people" or "Black people are in jail way more than white people"
SAY: Don't highlight status differences without providing any explanation for them -- see below.

5) Research shows that kids automatically come up with explanations for WHY some groups are higher-status and others are lower-status. Specifically, the explanation they intuitively come up with is that lower-status groups must be intrinsically inferior (biologically less intelligent or innately worse somehow), rather than extrinsically disadvantaged (structurally excluded from opportunities and resources). Children's minds assume that any status differences between groups are explained by groups' intrinsic natures, rather than by groups' extrinsic circumstances. Therefore, *pointing out status differences between racial groups (in wealth, power, treatment, incarceration, etc.) will lead children to assume that lower-status groups are intrinsically inferior, promoting prejudice.*

INSTEAD OF: "Police are hurting Black people but not white people." [children will assume that the reason for these patterns is Black people's intrinsic inferiority or violent natures, esp since white children tend to trust systems/authorities as meritocratic]
SAY: "Police are hurting Black people but not white people. Why do you think that is? I'll tell you: it ISN'T because Black people act differently than white people. It IS because the police are being unfair, and the laws are unfair, and that's really really bad." [listen to your child's explanation for the inequality, explicitly deny the intrinsic explanation for the inequality, provide an extrinsic explanation instead, and explicitly call the extrinsic reason unfair and bad]

Final note: The *specific language* I'm recommending has not been vetted or evaluated as an anti-racist intervention. These are my personal suggestions based on my review of robust and well-established findings from the field, and my educated guesses about what will be effective. Given the urgency of the current moment, and the suggestions I've seen floating around that are even less evidence-based, I thought remaining silent was more harmful than sharing these suggestions. But please know that science is slow, nonlinear, and complicated!
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Yada on June 02, 2020, 06:23:44 pm
I suggest everyone posting a black square on their social media pages, that will end things right quick.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 02, 2020, 06:34:33 pm
I suggest everyone posting a black square on their social media pages, that will end things right quick.

^ ^ ^ THIS
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 02, 2020, 10:38:01 pm
I suggest everyone posting a black square on their social media pages, that will end things right quick.

^ ^ ^ THIS
The results are.  It totally worked and we beat racism
Go team
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on June 02, 2020, 11:27:25 pm
I suggest everyone posting a black square on their social media pages, that will end things right quick.

^ ^ ^ THIS
The results are.  It totally worked and we beat racism
Go team
Finally we are living in a world where people are judged not by the color of their skin but by their personal care and hygiene habits! The dream (or in DFA1979’s case, nightmare) has been achieved!!
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: K8teebug on June 03, 2020, 10:03:31 am
I suggest starting with some reading. The Warmth of Other Suns and Evicted. Those are good starting points. Support organizations like Campaign Zero (and read about their work). I had no knowledge of how the bail system keeps people IN JAIL or in the system. That needs to change. You can change the language you use with your friends. Police violence instead of police brutality. Stop talking about protests as riots. Use civil unrest instead.

Listen to Pod Save the People.

Those are some good places to start. Please let me know if you have any suggestions to me.

Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 04, 2020, 01:23:45 am
I suggest everyone posting a black square on their social media pages, that will end things right quick.

^ ^ ^ THIS
The results are.  It totally worked and we beat racism
Go team
Finally we are living in a world where people are judged not by the color of their skin but by their personal care and hygiene habits! The dream (or in DFA1979’s case, nightmare) has been achieved!!


"So easy to post a black square. I’m seeing people who haven’t posted in YEARS come on to post a black square. Your silence was embarrassing and now you can feel good about yourself while doing the bare minimum. This is the worst kind of virtue signaling. And it’s straight up dangerous. The mainstream media isn’t blacking out today, the MAGA dudes in my mentions aren’t blacking out today. Clogging up the only reliable news source and communication channel ISNT HELPFUL."

who is this woke social justice warrior?!?!? (https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/emily-ratajkowski-slams-people-post-black-square-havent-posted-in-years)  this person even posted "Dismantle power structures of oppression" on their IG!!!!111

(hint: straight outta JA)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on June 04, 2020, 08:45:13 am
(hint: straight outta JA)
Nah. You forget that back in that shallowly objectifying people thread, I rated her a 9.5 out of 10 and grateful literally lost his damn mind that it wasn't a perfect ten. She isn't in JA; she's in a hole he dug in his basement waiting for him to lower a bucked of Chipotle down.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 04, 2020, 12:32:28 pm
so are you saying only tens make it into JA?!?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 05, 2020, 09:33:23 am
not saying this will end it...but pretty cool none the less

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZwBC1YXYAEXUjn?format=jpg&name=small)
https://www.popville.com/2020/06/massive-blacklivesmatter-painting-washington-dc/
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 05, 2020, 11:54:12 am
it's complete and vid posted by the dc mayor!
https://twitter.com/MurielBowser/status/1268916115809488896

D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser has renamed the street in front of the White House 'Black Lives Matter Plaza'.


Hutch is this your twitter handle?

@Crazy_Barmy
What an utter waste of taxpayer funds in an act of pointless virtue-signalling
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 05, 2020, 12:39:16 pm
you know who WILL end racism?  K-Pop fans!

K-Pop Fans Are Flooding Right-Wing Hashtags on Social Media (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xg8dw4/k-pop-fans-are-flooding-right-wing-hashtags-on-social-media)
In their latest move to support protesters, K-pop fan accounts are flooding hashtags like #bluelivesmatter and #MAGA with memes and fancams.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: kosmo vinyl on June 05, 2020, 01:06:59 pm
you know who WILL end racism?  K-Pop fans!

K-Pop Fans Are Flooding Right-Wing Hashtags on Social Media (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xg8dw4/k-pop-fans-are-flooding-right-wing-hashtags-on-social-media)
In their latest move to support protesters, K-pop fan accounts are flooding hashtags like #bluelivesmatter and #MAGA with memes and fancams.

clearly sweets is not so BRIGHT
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 05, 2020, 01:39:47 pm
i thought i was SPOT on
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Justin Tonation on June 05, 2020, 06:29:31 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/cvdPDWY/black-lives-matter-street.jpg)

Nabbed from fb.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 08, 2020, 09:52:46 am
Defunding the police?


I am kind of unclear how this works but willing to learn..
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Yada on June 08, 2020, 10:57:27 am
Defunding the police?


I am kind of unclear how this works but willing to learn..

Quite simple.

A city has a let's say 5 billion dollar budget for services.

Instead of giving the police system 4 billion of that budget and the rest of the city services one billion, you flip it and give social services, education, homeless, etc etc the four billion portion and the police the small piece of the pie.

Obviously more complicated than that, but that's the dumb down version.

Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 08, 2020, 11:01:24 am
So when someone robs my house who do I call or am I SOL?

Who writes the accident report?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Yada on June 08, 2020, 11:02:38 am
So when someone robs my house who do I call or am I SOL?

Who writes the accident report?

defunding police doesn't = getting rid of the police.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 08, 2020, 11:04:14 am
I guess 'reduce Police budgets and move to social services' doesn't sound as catchy as Defund the Police
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: gavroche on June 08, 2020, 11:15:46 am
I guess 'reduce Police budgets and move to social services' doesn't sound as catchy as Defund the Police

It also means remaking what the police force is though.  Getting rid of qualified immunity and the power of the Union to stop officers from being fired for misconduct.  Fundamentally changing the responsiveness of the police force to city officials.  That part isn't capture as much in the reduce the budget formulation.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 08, 2020, 11:40:53 am
Well Minneapolis is talking about eliminating its police department period


I have read accounts that talk about replacing the police with community organizations etc

I think many of the people talking about defunding the police mean eliminating it altogether

How exactly would this work? If someone is murdered is the police replacement meant to respond as quickly or because they have no funding do they begin investigation in three weeks?

What if god forbid there is a mass shooting? Who responds?

Let’s not even talk about the implications for the general election

I can’t imagine any democrat winning on this platform so do we think Trump and Barr will do nothing in response to this movement once they win on a don’t defund the police platform?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Yada on June 08, 2020, 11:43:04 am
Well Minneapolis is talking about eliminating its police department period


I have read accounts that talk about replacing the police with community organizations etc

I think many of the people talking about defunding the police mean eliminating it altogether

How exactly would this work? If someone is murdered is the police replacement meant to respond as quickly or because they have no funding do they begin investigation in three weeks?

What if god forbid there is a mass shooting? Who responds?

Let’s not even talk about the implications for the general election

I can’t imagine any democrat winning on this platform so do we think Trump and Barr will do nothing in response to this movement once they win on a don’t defund the police platform?

https://forum.930.com/index.php?topic=25374.msg503090#msg503090
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 08, 2020, 11:44:40 am
I addressed that Yada
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Yada on June 08, 2020, 11:46:16 am
I addressed that Yada

Getting rid of police for good is as easy as getting rid of systemic racism for good. It's not happening. The city of Minneapolis will still have some sort of a police department when this is all said and done.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 08, 2020, 11:50:58 am
I think what has happened in the last few decades is the police budgets went up a crazy amount due to the 'war on drugs' and 'get tough on crime'  and that money is not really being effectively being used to stop crime (before it starts)
we still need the police and the courts of course

I do think it's like a 'build a wall' like statement, it fits on a bumper sticker

So I think the biggest issue lies in that we have 18K different police departments that are all independent organizations and don't answer to a central federal government

 there are some good checks and balances why that is a good way to operate

but makes it insanely complicated on how we'd get comprehensive reform

Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 08, 2020, 12:00:48 pm
Well I hate the cops more than the next guy but seems pretty complicated

Still...am into the idea of changing the police
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: gavroche on June 08, 2020, 12:04:25 pm
Well I hate the cops more than the next guy but seems pretty complicated

Still...am into the idea of changing the police

I think Camden is the model that people are looking to: https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/protests/stopping-systemic-racism-in-police-departments-protests/65-c8f377a4-c2d4-4659-86e0-3fd13ec3dbc2 or here: https://www.newsweek.com/minneapolis-not-first-disband-police-department-1509327

The idea isn't that we don't need any law enforcement (at least for most people), the idea is that the current system is so broken that you need to start over.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: StoneTheCrow on June 08, 2020, 12:08:51 pm
Defunding the police?


I am kind of unclear how this works but willing to learn..

I don’t get it entirely, either. Should changes be made? Probably. Very carefully, though.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: kosmo vinyl on June 08, 2020, 12:14:42 pm
Haven't seen it yet, but John Oliver apparently did a good job with this last night

https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY

Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 08, 2020, 12:24:20 pm
Haven't seen it yet, but John Oliver apparently did a good job with this last night

https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY (https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY)

dammit kosmo, i was about to post that... made it to the last reply thinking "oh good, no one has mentioned john oliver yet"... and there you are.  THANKS.

anyhoo, oliver does talk about this some at the end of yesterday's show (https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY) (a good investment of 33 minutes). the part that brought it home for me was a press conference with a police chief where he made the following point: police have become society's default means for dealing with problems that are self-imposed: lack of funding for rehab = drug problem = call the police. lack of resources for victims of domestic abuse = domestic violence = call the police.  lack of mental health care = all sorts of problems = call the police. etc.  and the police are, in almost all cases, the wrong people to be dealing with these problems - but we send them anyways, because there is no one else to take care of the problem.

so the thinking behind "defund the police" is to take budget away, but also responsibilities.  take some of that police money and put it towards affordable housing, expanded healthcare, more social intervention specialists, etc., so that you don't need as many police officers.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on June 08, 2020, 01:16:34 pm
So when someone robs my house who do I call or am I SOL?

Who writes the accident report?

defunding police doesn't = getting rid of the police.
Considering over 90% of police funding is salaries, benefits, and OT, any sort of “defunding” does equate to literally getting rid of police unless we are talking about defunding like 1% of their budget.

Which is fine, I just wish people would be honest about the reality of what they are proposing. In your “go from giving them 4 billion to only 1 billion” hypothetical, you are de facto firing most police officers en masse. Which, again, is a conversation we can have, I just think we have to call it what it is.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: gavroche on June 08, 2020, 01:19:25 pm
So when someone robs my house who do I call or am I SOL?

Who writes the accident report?

defunding police doesn't = getting rid of the police.
Considering over 90% of police funding is salaries, benefits, and OT, any sort of “defunding” does equate to literally getting rid of police unless we are talking about defunding like 1% of their budget.

Which is fine, I just wish people would be honest about the reality of what they are proposing. In your “go from giving them 4 billion to only 1 billion” hypothetical, you are de facto firing most police officers en masse. Which, again, is a conversation we can have, I just think we have to call it what it is.

I think the long time BLM activists who are proposing it are actually pretty clear.  It's those of us who want to be supportive, but who cannot get our heads around what the US would look like without a massive police presence, who are unclear.  (And I'll put myself in that second camp for sure).
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 08, 2020, 01:31:15 pm
That’s fantastic Gavroche


I assume then that there are documents and papers outlining how this would work..it’s a major undertaking but it’s good to know a lot of thought has been given to it


Can you point me to some of them?


Thanks in advance
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: gavroche on June 08, 2020, 01:43:12 pm
That’s fantastic Gavroche


I assume then that there are documents and papers outlining how this would work..it’s a major undertaking but it’s good to know a lot of thought has been given to it


Can you point me to some of them?


Thanks in advance

Having the details worked out is WAY different than being clear in demands. I just said they've been clear in their demands and they have Camden to point to as a model.  That said, they have been clear in articles and interviews. Just a couple:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2020/06/defund-police-nypd-brutality-protests
https://www.democracynow.org/2020/6/1/keeanga_yamahtta_taylor_defund_us_police
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/defund-the-police-1007254/
https://www.axios.com/defund-police-black-lives-matter-7007efac-0b24-44e2-a45c-c7f180c17b2e.html
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/03/nashville-council-hears-defunding-police-message-marathon-meeting/3129715001/
https://www.tennessean.com/story/opinion/2020/05/27/we-need-community-budget-people-nashville/5267975002/

Here is a book: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing

And then this kind of the more mainstream version:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/05/30/bad-apples-come-from-rotten-trees-in-policing/




Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 08, 2020, 01:45:46 pm
Cool

I will start with Brookings

Thx
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 08, 2020, 02:04:54 pm
Interesting

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936


I think we really have to spend hundreds of billions cleaning up the inner cities in Houston, Baltimore etc


And decriminalize drugs as much as we can

And increase spending in the inner city schools which is hard..The Supreme Court ruled in the 1970s there is no right to an equal education and the system we have local property taxes are a big part of local school funding...this must change

If we did for starters these three things I think it would be important


Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Justin Tonation on June 08, 2020, 02:09:15 pm

Here is a book: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing


N.B.: The ebook version currently free.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: WalkOnBack on June 08, 2020, 10:46:15 pm
e,books . . . are not a correct way of learning anything.  They are fleeting without real paged archiveness.  I must, say, this is the one the best  threads to read, as of late on here.  Real issues broken down within human emotions, and some humor added to break the silence of possible moving on and away.   

Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 09, 2020, 03:30:12 pm
This is really interesting


https://knowyourmeme.com/videos/219943-david-bowie?fbclid=IwAR0lQae33pJddftRaSee57Ujqxzx-LLTh3K6L0rviAbBockOzTV8E5mRJGc
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 09, 2020, 04:07:12 pm
^bowie...always ahead of the times
such a gentleman

I love that last line where Goodman's like "Makes sense, valid point?" on why they don't want to 'get in trouble for showing black artists'

Bowie "I understand your point of view" and not at all agreeing with him
Others in the room heard laughing
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 09, 2020, 04:21:41 pm
Yup,..some pretty uncomfortable moments


The two most striking - other than the ending as you point out-are where Bowie responds “interesting” ..the subtext clearly “you just made my point...racist”

We all need to be like Bowie...


And I was scared of Prince which is why he was so important..
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 09, 2020, 06:41:00 pm
where Bowie responds “interesting” ..the subtext clearly “you just made my point...racist”

We all need to be like Bowie...
yep
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 10, 2020, 01:25:35 pm
Haven't seen it yet, but John Oliver apparently did a good job with this last night

https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY (https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY)

dammit kosmo, i was about to post that... made it to the last reply thinking "oh good, no one has mentioned john oliver yet"... and there you are.  THANKS.

anyhoo, oliver does talk about this some at the end of yesterday's show (https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY) (a good investment of 33 minutes). the part that brought it home for me was a press conference with a police chief where he made the following point: police have become society's default means for dealing with problems that are self-imposed: lack of funding for rehab = drug problem = call the police. lack of resources for victims of domestic abuse = domestic violence = call the police.  lack of mental health care = all sorts of problems = call the police. etc.  and the police are, in almost all cases, the wrong people to be dealing with these problems - but we send them anyways, because there is no one else to take care of the problem.

so the thinking behind "defund the police" is to take budget away, but also responsibilities.  take some of that police money and put it towards affordable housing, expanded healthcare, more social intervention specialists, etc., so that you don't need as many police officers.

for a really eloquent take on "defund the police", give a listen to yesterday's editions of The Daily DC podcast (https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/daily-dc?episodeguid=f477691c-1249-42e3-8d26-abd50162a825).  a city councilor from Minneapolis clearly outlines why he's pushing for it:
- police are being sent to places they don't belong (why is an armed police officer called when you get into a fender-bender?  that's an insurance function, not a public safety function).  give those non-safety jobs to folks who specialize in them.
- they got suggestions from around the country about how to solve their policing problem: body cameras, new training, community policing, etc.  the problem is that they are already doing all those things and it wasn't working.
- the police union has been a brick wall against reform.  even the smallest, most token efforts at reform were consistently crushed by the union.  the city can't fire bad cops, like the one that killed george floyd (who has a record of excessive force complaints).
- the public fears the current police force, viewing it as an occupying force.  even if the police was reformed, public perception will ensure that relations would stay tense for a long time.

his conclusion was that the Minn police force is so broken that it can't be fixed.  they need to tear it down and restart, not unlike what Camden has successfully done. (https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Justin Tonation on June 11, 2020, 11:39:32 am
Here or the Onion thread?

Lady Antebellum Change Band Name: “We Are Deeply Sorry” (https://pitchfork.com/news/lady-antebellum-change-band-name-we-are-deeply-sorry/?utm_medium=social&utm_brand=p4k&utm_source=twitter&utm_social-type=owned&mbid=social_twitter)

So how will they answer when someone asks what the "A" stands for?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on June 11, 2020, 11:46:04 am
Here or the Onion thread?

Lady Antebellum Change Band Name: “We Are Deeply Sorry” (https://pitchfork.com/news/lady-antebellum-change-band-name-we-are-deeply-sorry/?utm_medium=social&utm_brand=p4k&utm_source=twitter&utm_social-type=owned&mbid=social_twitter)

So how will they answer when someone asks what the "A" stands for?
Just day they’re the bad guy from Pretty Little Liars.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 11, 2020, 12:01:13 pm
the definition of Antebellum is : occurring or existing before a particular war, especially the American Civil War.

So while this glamorizes the south before the civil war, which included widespread slavery...I still don't think it's even close to as offesive as the Confederate Flag and statues/plaques/monuments to Civil war 'heros'


in related news:
A dust-up has ensued with the fans of the Colonial Beach Bike Fest yesterday

They were set to have the headliner: Confederate Railroad
They announced yesterday they will no longer be the headliner...and the participants of the fest are up in arms how the libs are ruining everything


Now that name, in my opinion, is way more offensive than Lady Antebellum...but I think that is due to the ignorance (me included) of the definition of Antebellum. 


I am glad that Tom Petty divorced himself from the association before he died
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/tom-petty-on-past-confederate-flag-use-it-was-downright-stupid-177619/
In 1985, I released an album called Southern Accents. It began as a concept record about the South, but the concept part slipped away probably 70 percent or so into the album. I just let it go, but the Confederate flag became part of the marketing for the tour. I wish I had given it more thought. It was a downright stupid thing to do.

I used it onstage during that song, and I regretted it pretty quickly. When we toured two years later, I noticed people in the audience wearing Confederate flag bandanas and things like that. One night, someone threw one onstage. I stopped everything and gave a speech about it. I said, “Look, this was to illustrate a character. This is not who we are. Having gone through this, I would prefer it if no one would ever bring a Confederate flag to our shows again because this isn’t who we are.”
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 12, 2020, 01:25:53 pm
where Bowie responds “interesting” ..the subtext clearly “you just made my point...racist”

We all need to be like Bowie...
yep

so this is now the new response when some make a racist stament
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/e8d28aa4d9df8c2c88d388968a98074e/tumblr_p6zvgeCzlr1rl03xro4_400.gifv)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 12, 2020, 01:36:56 pm
I wonder who filmed that? Was somebody from Bowie’s team filming ?

Did the interview even run on MTV?

Was MTV filming and ran parts of interview? Probably they wouldn’t have ran this segment but someone from Bowie’s team filmed it too? And eventually it leaked?






And it obviously speaks very well of who Bowie was


I have heard he was known as somebody who really helped fellow musicians


When this interview was done Bowie was back in the spotlight and once again selling tons of records after years of releasing great stuff that hardly sold but made a huge mark on music (no doubt what he wanted)

But it’s clear everything about Let’s Dance was a play for the commercial big time and it worked..almost immediately here we find Bowie using his newfound clout to affect change..remarkable
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: gavroche on June 13, 2020, 12:29:24 am
Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.

and this was pretty good to: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/g5pvgm/we-dont-need-cops-to-enforce-traffic-laws   
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 16, 2020, 10:28:40 am
Hey Siri, I'm getting pulled over (https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/hey-siri-im-getting-pulled-over-iphone-feature-will-record-police-interaction-send-location)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 17, 2020, 11:35:23 am
my understanding is Mitch, of course, is not even going to discuss/consider the dem proposal
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EauFF6RXgAY8XlQ?format=jpg&name=large)

Again, these GOP @holes act all high and might on the 'fairness doctrine' they seem to think they abide by, but never really work with the other side to solve problems.  but love to say 'do nothing democrats' over and over and over


Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 17, 2020, 11:44:53 am
Of course police reform must happen but that’s just a piece of issue


Drive through parts of Baltimore..it’s a war zone

We need to invest trillions in creating opportunity for black people...you can even think of it as reparations if you want

There is no indication this is even on the table...


I mean what are we really talking about?police tactics?

You can eliminate all the police (and maybe we should) and parts of Brawltimore - an example- will still be the twilight zone

Many black people in America don’t stand a chance...there is little opportunity for them

Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 17, 2020, 11:51:15 am
I mean what are we really talking about?police tactics?

You can eliminate all the police (and maybe we should) and parts of Brawltimore - an example- will still be the twilight zone

Many black people in America don’t stand a chance...there is little opportunity for them

agreed, we need to do more, but ensuring that african americans aren't shot or choked to death seems like a reasonable place to start...
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 17, 2020, 11:58:38 am
I think it all goes together honestly...


But if you want to limit it to chokeholds go for it...that’s what we are talking about today, right?


We all agree on that - at least democrats- but have you been in the bad parts of Baltimore? You can take out the police and it will devolve into gang warfare

Again, maybe we should eliminate the police..and of course police shouldn’t shoot people in back multiple times


I dare you to take a walk in parts of Baltimore





Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 17, 2020, 12:01:45 pm
And no you can’t really start with chokeholds and police reform because that’s going to be handled state by state police department by police department etc...it’s just not something that is going to be that easy to do

Although you can do police departments in democrat controlled cities


But can the federal government pump trillions into Baltimore to clean it up? Hell yeah that we could do but I don’t hear one person talking about it
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 17, 2020, 12:02:56 pm
I mean what are we really talking about?police tactics?

You can eliminate all the police (and maybe we should) and parts of Brawltimore - an example- will still be the twilight zone

Many black people in America don’t stand a chance...there is little opportunity for them

agreed, we need to do more, but ensuring that african americans aren't shot or choked to death seems like a reasonable place to start...
so yes...I agree with sweets
it's just tactics that are on the table, but it's part of a bigger discussion that the country is having on the role of cops and use of force

I keep seeing all these stories of people in the ER/Mental Health centers having to deal with drugged/drunk/belligerent people and they never resort to choking or killing them.

What always shocks and disturbs me is that often they KNOW it's being filmed and it's usually a group of them
I'm not saying it's easy to detain a large, muscular man who may be hopped up on something, but there are techniques used all over the world to effectivly restrain an unarmed individual

And no you can’t really start with chokeholds and police reform because that’s going to be handled state by state police department by police department etc...it’s just not something that is going to be that easy to do
this is the rub that most people don't understand
18,000 independent police departments!
there is no 1 Chief of ALL Police
Maybe that's where some change needs to happen?
I'm sure that will get the GOP back to support states rights
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 17, 2020, 12:06:10 pm
Agree police shouldn’t abuse its powers and break the law.

Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 17, 2020, 12:21:13 pm
JUST IN: “White Lives Matter” spray-painted on Arthur Ashe monument in Richmond
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on June 17, 2020, 12:24:51 pm
JUST IN: “White Lives Matter” spray-painted on Arthur Ashe monument in Richmond
The real crime is how terrible that monument is. It looks like he’s beating children and holding a Bible aloft while doing it.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 17, 2020, 12:27:01 pm
Decriminalize drugs.


Although how you deal with dealers isn’t so easy

Some of these cities are having a dozen or more murders a week..there are a lot of guns around and a lot of violence excluding that by cops

Not so easy to walk these streets if you are a cop..you need to make these streets safer and the only way I can think of is to invest so much money and afford so much opportunity that crime is no longer the only way out other than sports or celebrity

If you think taking cops out of Baltimore is going to fix things and everyone is going to be singing kumbaya...well




Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 17, 2020, 12:35:51 pm
I don’t think society is ready to have an honest conversation about this...it’s a lot of sloganeering and no sign anything is getting done


Meanwhile resentment between the races is just building up...it was already pretty bad before...

If I was Biden I would be proposing some sort of massive economic opportunity program but he is going to play it safe...and just post obvious stuff on his Facebook  like we shouldn’t have chokeholds..scared to freak out whites..and how would you pay for it?

Of course police was overwhelmingly pro Trump before and now...

I have a friend who works (worked?) at a DC bar that hosts police week and he said the pro Trump cheers at the police week events past few years have been deafening (and sickening to him..and he used to self identify as Republican)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 17, 2020, 01:05:29 pm
We might want to look at what post apartheid South Africa did...to learn some lessons..do’s and don’ts

South Africa has to be the closest case to us..after all we ended our apartheid in the 1960s and they did in the 1990s..of course in their case the majority is black


We may wish to compel our largest businesses to pay a one time “reparations tax” (call it something else) and spend the money on creating opportunities for blacks and spending trillions to bring inner cities back.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Space Freely on June 17, 2020, 01:37:36 pm
My sister-in-law, who dates a Chicago cop (Latino, not that it matters) , wore a "Property of Chicago Police Department" shirt out in public last week. She caught an elbow from someone while in a store and challenged that person to a fight. Challenge went unaccepted.

Not the brightest one in the family....
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Space Freely on June 17, 2020, 01:38:43 pm
JUST IN: “White Lives Matter” spray-painted on Arthur Ashe monument in Richmond
The real crime is how terrible that monument is. It looks like he’s beating children and holding a Bible aloft while doing it.

can confirm
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Heilung4eva on June 17, 2020, 02:33:27 pm
I inadvertently wore my 2008 Police tour shirt last week and went out to pick up some beer.  Felt self-conscious the whole time :(
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: kosmo vinyl on June 17, 2020, 03:21:20 pm
I have a t-shirt that says Vote Whig
“They couldn’t possibly be worse” was wearing the other day and realized it probably wasn’t sending the ironic message I viewed it as having.  Probably a boat load of old racists there...
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Justin Tonation on June 17, 2020, 03:55:19 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/crLCLqp/q-button.jpg)

This button is on my book bag. It was swag that came with the reissue of this:


(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/000/025/783/0238ba04bfc44f82a48e5fbde519d512_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-2.1.0&w=680&fit=max&v=1339462994&auto=format&frame=1&q=92&s=7afd3b652ef15a8b75d3fd2fadecba15)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 17, 2020, 05:01:45 pm
^ or are you admitting to being a follower of QAnon?!?!?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 17, 2020, 05:09:11 pm
things are changing quick...
The Atlanta officer who fatally shot Rayshard Brooks in the back after the fleeing man pointed a stun gun in his direction will be charged with felony murder and 10 other charges. Possible sentences include life without parole or death penalty.

Even if we had the video in March 2020...this would have not had the same result
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Justin Tonation on June 17, 2020, 05:58:50 pm
^ or are you admitting to being a follower of QAnon?!?!?

For anybody that sees it, I wonder what they think? For that matter, few have actually seen it. I only carry it going to and leaving work, plus the occasional meeting in the center of the campus (where there are far more eyes). Add to it my middle-aged white guy-ness....
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on June 17, 2020, 06:41:27 pm
I know a woman (early 30s) who is seemingly normal. Nice, not ugly, not political at all. She recently announced her engagement. Went out to a dinner to meet the lucky young gentleman right before COVID shut everything down — he is a Jehovahs Witness pop-punk rocker (multiple bands on Spotify) who is a fervent believer in Qanon. Talked everyone’s ear off about it. But he thinks it’s all part of the book of Revelations — like the Bible foretold Qanon. And to be clear, as a Jehovahs Witness he does not vote and thinks Trump is a bad person.

It truly was one of the most fascinating things ever to happen to me. I hope an army of psychiatrists write a book about him someday so I can read it.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 19, 2020, 02:39:12 am
uh... wow.

Democrat asked GOP to state Black lives matter. Hear the response (https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/06/17/eric-swalwell-matt-gaetz-black-lives-matter-sot-keilar-nr-vpx.cnn/)


spoiler: they didn't reply "black lives matter".
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 19, 2020, 12:23:57 pm
peter Segal gave a real lesson on what happened in
https://twitter.com/petersagal/status/1274004959017697280
In Little Rock, I was taught, local authorities defied Brown v Board and wouldn't let Black students -- the Little Rock Nine -- enter Little Rock Central High School. So Ike sent the 101st Airborne, escorted them to school, all fixed, yay.

I also learned about massive Resistance in VA that pretty much had laws and funds for education segregation into the  mid 60s
https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/massive_resistance#start_entry

I mean it makes sense, but still a little shocking
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 19, 2020, 12:41:51 pm
Louisville police is firing officer Brett Hankison involved in Breonna Taylor shooting

as nina says 'too slow'  but man the dial seems to be moving fast
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on June 19, 2020, 01:26:06 pm
peter Segal gave a real lesson on what happened in
https://twitter.com/petersagal/status/1274004959017697280
In Little Rock, I was taught, local authorities defied Brown v Board and wouldn't let Black students -- the Little Rock Nine -- enter Little Rock Central High School. So Ike sent the 101st Airborne, escorted them to school, all fixed, yay.

I also learned about massive Resistance in VA that pretty much had laws and funds for education segregation into the  mid 60s
https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/massive_resistance#start_entry

I mean it makes sense, but still a little shocking

excellent reads.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: challenged on June 19, 2020, 02:18:55 pm
Early and Persistent, Persistent, Persistent education at school and at home is really the only way to end systemic racism. Teaching kids not only to not be racist, but to be anti-racist.

No chance I was taught about Redlining, Juneteenth, Tulsa Race Massacre, and so much more in my progressive northern public school curriculum. Meanwhile ...  at home yiddish racial perjoratives were still used and accepted, and with middle school dirtbag buddies the N word was fairly regularly thrown around. Ah, the 70s.

Anyway...I like this song and I am buying a bunch of music on bandcamp to get me more records and contribute to the NAACP legal defense fund.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4HusI8Xyqk     (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4HusI8Xyqk)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 22, 2020, 03:44:20 pm
so yes it's NASCAR...but they are really making an effort

check out what is going on in Talladega
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 22, 2020, 03:55:21 pm
NASCAR was virtually a KKK rally for the past century....



Also nobody will ever convince me keeping the steering wheel turned left is car racing

Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on June 22, 2020, 03:58:24 pm
But yeah credit where credit is due
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 22, 2020, 04:43:09 pm
But yeah credit where credit is due
They are taking a big risk alienating their fan base
But corporations need to take the lead here on some of this (as do the people and government)

If people want to vote with their pocketbook, that is a risk.  But I think it's a bigger risk to be associated with the KKK and it's ilk when billions of $$$ are on the line
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on June 22, 2020, 04:48:01 pm

Also nobody will ever convince me keeping the steering wheel turned left is car racing

this made me laugh after reading your comment
@owillis
always knew nascar was a liberal plot because they make all those left turns.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 01, 2020, 02:03:55 pm
Stonewall Jackson coming down in RVA right now
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb241XzXkAI4-Wk?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on July 01, 2020, 03:43:57 pm
Stonewall Jackson coming down in RVA right now
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb241XzXkAI4-Wk?format=jpg&name=large)
Can confirm - am on the scene. Some fat, crying white dude with a flag attempted to interfere and got mobbed.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 01, 2020, 03:50:24 pm
Can confirm - am on the scene. Some fat, crying white dude with a flag attempted to interfere and got mobbed.
I was tempted to find some foolish-looking white guy and say..."Hey even Jules even showed up"
Represent!
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 01, 2020, 04:09:03 pm
Some people disagree but I don’t think there should be one monument or statue to anything having to do with the confederacy...traitors


Even graves in public lands..if they really want to they can say “Here lies a confederate traitor to the United States of America”... a friend of mine - Sidehatch knows him..Bryan..- thinks I am unreasonable but to me you simply can’t have any official recognition of the confederacy as anything other than traitors

On private land do what you want..that’s different in my eyes

And this actually has nothing to do with systemic racism.. countries just shouldn’t allow monuments to traitors..it’s like Country 101!!somewhere along the line things got way messed up in the US
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on July 01, 2020, 04:29:11 pm
And this actually has nothing to do with systemic racism.. countries just shouldn’t allow monuments to traitors..it’s like Country 101!!somewhere along the line things got way messed up in the US

i would argue that those status have everything to do with systemic racism.  white racists were able to put them up because of systemic racism.  they served as reminders of oppression.

imagine if an african american community put up a large monument to someone who was famous for targeting and killing whites.  that statue would be torn down faster than it went up, if they allowed it to be erected at all.  yet here we are, 150+ years since the first jim crow-era confederate statue were erected, and we're just getting around to removing them.  if you have an explanation for this other than systemic racism, i'm all ears.

i also agree with your point that countries shouldn't glorify traitors.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on July 01, 2020, 04:37:13 pm
Stonewall Jackson coming down in RVA right now
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb241XzXkAI4-Wk?format=jpg&name=large)


Richmond mayor invokes emergency powers to remove Confederate statues from city (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/politics/richmond-stonewall-jackson-confederate-statues-removed/index.html)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 01, 2020, 04:44:19 pm
And this actually has nothing to do with systemic racism.. countries just shouldn’t allow monuments to traitors..it’s like Country 101!!somewhere along the line things got way messed up in the US

i would argue that those status have everything to do with systemic racism.  white racists were able to put them up because of systemic racism.  they served as reminders of oppression.

imagine if an african american community put up a large monument to someone who was famous for targeting and killing whites.  that statue would be torn down faster than it went up, if they allowed it to be erected at all.  yet here we are, 150+ years since the first jim crow-era confederate statue were erected, and we're just getting around to removing them.  if you have an explanation for this other than systemic racism, i'm all ears.

i also agree with your point that countries shouldn't glorify traitors.

yawn sweetcell just yawn...get off your self virtue horse. Obviously I agree with what you write but nothing I write said otherwise..stop being a blockhead


What I am saying is that the reason I don’t think they should have ever gone up has nothing to do with racism..I don’t need to oppose racism to think they shouldn’t be there..numskull

It has to do with the fact that we don’t put up monuments to traitors






Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 01, 2020, 04:56:45 pm
And trust me..all this stuff about statues and names....yeah, kind of important..in general am in agreement but


Kind of not going to end systemic racism either


You know what will help?...$...trillions of them... white peeps in fancy neighborhoods giving a shit about schools in inner cities would also help


This business about statues and names on buildings is an easy cop out..until white people are willing to give up $ ain’t nothing going to change other than statues and names on buildings


I am hearing ZERO on this..it’s all “hey look we ain’t going to name this building after Woodrow Wilson!! Yeah we are really ending systemic racism!”


It’s kind of weak sauce...but hey if it makes white peoples feel good


You want to make change to end systemic racism? Donate $5 here..they help kids graduate high school, get in college etc...that’s change..the rest is a nice story to help you go to bed at night

https://risedc.org/
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 01, 2020, 05:01:41 pm
Some people disagree but I don’t think there should be one monument or statue to anything having to do with the confederacy...traitors
umm I don't know too many non-maga types who think that
surprises me about B, but then again...

I think Germany should be a model for how it's done

There was soo much racism in the south and it was all power-related
So generation after generation being told this is OK and they really like to show their power over blacks in the south by naming things and putting statues at courthouses.  I was a clear message, has very little to do with remembering history...it was about the present

I think there are a lot of great things and people in the South and I wish there was a unifying symbol they could show to show their southern pride...but the battle flag of an army that killed more Americans than all other wars and were OK with enslaving humans...no fn' way

Honestly, I'm shocked that 60 years after the civil rights movement that they were all still standing

And Trump holding up a 3/4 trillion bill 'names of bases are like the most important things to the families of soldiers who died fighting for our country"
WTAF... I can only imagine that most of them hate those bases because they did boot camp and it was miserable and have no connection to the wars they fought in.  such f'd up logic


Kind of not going to end systemic racism either

It’s kind of weak sauce...but hey if it makes white peoples feel good
I agree.  I do think it sends a message through. I do think it's an important first step
But just A STEP in a marathon that needs to be run

I think the property tax=school thing is SUCH BULLSHIT
that is racist 100%
They are PUBLIC schools...the pubic should fund them
If you are rich, go to a private school if you don't like the public school....but goddamm you are going to pay some taxes to support all the schools in your state
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on July 01, 2020, 05:52:35 pm
And this actually has nothing to do with systemic racism.

i would argue that those status have everything to do with systemic racism. 

I agree with what you write but nothing I write said otherwise..

i'm confused.  but please, carry on...
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 01, 2020, 06:08:54 pm


It’s not that hard Sweetcell : my opposition to confederate statues is because they are statues to traitors...I never meant to say statues to racists have nothing to do with racism and the fact you seem to read it that way is kind of insulting frankly


But yeah let’s debate and nitpick over this...that will end systemic racism!


Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 08, 2020, 12:55:44 pm
yes renaming things and toppling statues doesn't really end this...but this seems to be the thread for this

Never really thought about how renaming DC might be on the list...
D.C. is a 68-square-mile monument to Columbus. Here’s what we could rename it. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/07/goodbye-columbus-district-columbia-needs-new-name/)
this opening made me chuckle

Christopher Columbus never explored the waters of the Chesapeake — until Saturday.

Protesters in Baltimore, on the Fourth of July, pulled down a statue of the Italian sailor in the city’s Little Italy, then hauled him, or what was left of him, to the Inner Harbor and rolled him into the water with a splash



Some possibilities for a D.C. without Columbus:
Disenfranchised Citizenry
Democracy Crushed
Defrauded Citizens
Deplorable Colonialism

Alternatively, we could tweak Trump by reminding him what his neighbors think of him, by renaming D.C. “Democrat City” or “Deep-state Central.”
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Heilung4eva on July 08, 2020, 12:56:54 pm
Back to the roots!  Dark Chocolate!  Wait, no.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 08, 2020, 12:58:34 pm
F the acronym just name it Chocolate City!
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 09, 2020, 11:55:26 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcfuDJOWsAEa3az?format=jpg&name=large)
*disclaimer...this will not end systemic racism...but it sure feels good
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 09, 2020, 12:01:35 pm
Ending systemic racism happens one day at a time...one action at a time

I think BLM is great cause its awakening new generations to the ongoing struggle

I am reading a book about hip hop culture..the first 100 pages - all I have read so far- are mainly about the Bronx in the early 1970s...we have come so far from the 1970s...still a long way to go though
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Justin Tonation on July 13, 2020, 09:45:31 am
Tucker Carlson's writer resigns over extracurricular assholery (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/tucker-carlsons-writer-resigns-over-racist-and-sexist-posts-the-latest-trouble-for-foxs-most-controversial-star/2020/07/11/2a50dbba-c394-11ea-b178-bb7b05b94af1_story.html)

Hey, ladies, he's available! (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/date-labhe-is-a-proud-trump-supporter-she-was-not-turned-off/2017/09/19/c5ae318e-8387-11e7-902a-2a9f2d808496_story.html)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Space Freely on July 13, 2020, 10:34:34 am
She sounds like a hard pass as well.



Hey, ladies, he's available! (https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/date-labhe-is-a-proud-trump-supporter-she-was-not-turned-off/2017/09/19/c5ae318e-8387-11e7-902a-2a9f2d808496_story.html)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 15, 2020, 11:38:16 pm
We need something like this on a national scale.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/15/us/north-carolina-asheville-reparations/index.html

I don’t think we are going to get it


Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Heilung4eva on July 16, 2020, 01:48:19 pm
Maryland is trying -- for the 10th time (https://wamu.org/story/20/07/14/montgomery-county-lawmakers-make-new-attempt-to-change-marylands-state-song/) -- to name a new state song.


What do you think it should be?


Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on July 17, 2020, 02:42:38 pm
how to not end systemic racism: “It’s like stop and frisk meets Guantanamo Bay”

Trump Unleashes His Secret Police in Portland (https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-secret-police-portland/)
In a dangerous authoritarian move, federal agents in camouflage and without badges are rounding up American citizens.

The Authoritarian Operation in Portland Is Only a Dress Rehearsal (https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33347230/portland-oregon-protesters-detained/)
A major American city is being softly Pinochet’ed in broad daylight.

(tip of the hat to Hutch on that last one...)

haven't seen a lot of mainstream reporting on this... hopefully it'll get picked up soon.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 17, 2020, 02:55:07 pm
The Authoritarian Operation in Portland Is Only a Dress Rehearsal (https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a33347230/portland-oregon-protesters-detained/)
A major American city is being softly Pinochet’ed in broad daylight.

(tip of the hat to Hutch on that last one...)

haven't seen a lot of mainstream reporting on this... hopefully it'll get picked up soon.
it's all over twitter...and just checked NYT, USAtoday, TheHill and other media are running stories
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on July 17, 2020, 06:12:57 pm
not just portland, happened in columbus too:
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/columbus-paramilitary-police-with-assault-weapons-jump-out-of-unmarked-vans-to-abduct-protester/ (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/columbus-paramilitary-police-with-assault-weapons-jump-out-of-unmarked-vans-to-abduct-protester/)


yeay fascism!
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 20, 2020, 04:26:02 pm
how to not end systemic racism: “It’s like stop and frisk meets Guantanamo Bay”

Trump Unleashes His Secret Police in Portland (https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-secret-police-portland/)
In a dangerous authoritarian move, federal agents in camouflage and without badges are rounding up American citizens.


haven't seen a lot of mainstream reporting on this... hopefully it'll get picked up soon.
Well this is awkward...when you agree with Rand Paul
Senator Rand Paul@RandPaul
We cannot give up liberty for security. Local law enforcement can and should be handling these situations in our cities but there is no place for federal troops or unidentified federal agents rounding people up at will.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 20, 2020, 05:37:45 pm
Another traitor


A major one

Who cares what he says Sidehatch? Do you?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on July 21, 2020, 02:21:23 am
The Robert E Lee monument in downtown Richmond, VA on Saturday night.
 
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/110305833_612025896091378_5910411525100256772_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=qaRZ8EIOEY4AX_ZZi1O&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=0315eb299028b2c5f0b6ac8121078ba9&oe=5F3D765D)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 21, 2020, 02:27:37 am
That’s ending it right there!
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on July 21, 2020, 03:11:19 am
dude, i think you need to get to bed ;D
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on July 21, 2020, 08:35:58 am
Page 9, huh? So I'm guessing the last 8 has just been people saying "Julian is correct, it is mandatory busing and the removal of private/home school options and there is no reason to propose anything else"?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 21, 2020, 10:11:25 am
"Julian is correct"
That has been said....never?  (see here is a good job for GGW)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 24, 2020, 07:19:44 am
Robert E. Lee High School renamed for John Lewis in Fairfax County
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 27, 2020, 05:23:37 pm
Tom Cotton thinks he found a way to end it!
"Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) introduced a bill to cut off federal funding to public K-12 schools that teach the 1619 project, an interactive New York Times Magazine project aimed at re-examining America’s legacy of slavery that has come under fire from conservatives and some historians for alleged inaccuracies.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: sweetcell on July 27, 2020, 05:49:31 pm
White supremacists posing as BLM protesters instigated Richmond riots: Police (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/07/white-supremacists-posing-as-blm-protesters-instigated-richmond-riots-police/)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 27, 2020, 06:05:13 pm
It’s way worse than that! Cotton said slavery was a “necessary evil”!


Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Space Freely on July 28, 2020, 09:11:46 am
It’s way worse than that! Cotton said slavery was a “necessary evil”!

Perhaps we should make him pick cotton and whip his ass.

I hope this doesn't denigrate this thread, but the mention of cotton made me think of this story....

When my grandfather (from GA) was 7, his dad remarried (his mom had died), and his new mom pulled my grandfather and his siblings out of school and made them go work full time in the cotton fields...while leaving her own children in school. My grandfather, with only a second grade education, never did learn how to read or write. He eventually ran away from home in his early teen years, and lived as a hobo on trains for a while in the 30's.

But he did manage to marry up. My grandmother (from TN) made it through eighth grade. Her schooling stopped when her one room schoolhouse burned down. Apparently that was a decent education back then, as she eventually taught school at one point in her working career.

I hope I'm remembering that correctly. It may have been tobacco fields instead of cotton, I'm not sure.

But I digress. My grandfather was a complete piece of racist shit who abused everyone in his path. I wonder what he would have been if his dad hadn't remarried the wicked stepmom.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 28, 2020, 09:29:25 am
and lived as a hobo on trains for a while in the 30's.
Now the pieces of your origin story are coming together, this needs its own thread ;)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Heilung4eva on July 28, 2020, 11:04:35 am
It was a no-go for this hobo.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: hutch on July 28, 2020, 11:59:00 am
So it’s a fake story?
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Julian, Adroit TASTEMAKER on July 28, 2020, 12:55:56 pm
and lived as a hobo on trains for a while in the 30's.
Now the pieces of your origin story are coming together, this needs its own thread ;)
Maybe frugalness is genetic.
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Pendant-hatch lıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl on July 28, 2020, 02:38:47 pm
I know we kinda went off the rails on this thread (bah-dum-siss)
but this seemed relevant


(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/116263040_10157131894132414_2522517246302315661_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=WbycEYak3QEAX8KGMEa&_nc_oc=AQkMHPIuRbQa-mEUTIiggF_WNjAdRvb_kOWP8c8AlmugGyfDSzEg2D1xwPegLTfGSIY&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=8c305126d95a49fc1d7ca9073cbc79f2&oe=5F459770)
Title: Re: How to end systemic racism?
Post by: Space Freely on July 28, 2020, 02:57:35 pm
and lived as a hobo on trains for a while in the 30's.
Now the pieces of your origin story are coming together, this needs its own thread ;)
Maybe frugalness is genetic.

Not quite. My grandfather wore the same  one 10 cent shirt that he handwashed over and over. Whereas my closet is overflowing with thrift store purchases. He was also a germaphobe and refused to eat at restaurants. I had no problem eating at restaurants before COVID.

Now my other grandfather, he died an alcoholic at 52. I wish i knew more about him, he probably had an interesting story too. But my dad never talked about his family that much.