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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Bags on June 29, 2004, 11:08:00 am
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The Ticketmaster Fee-nomenon (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13496-2004Jun28.html)
By Don Oldenburg
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 29, 2004; Page C10
When David Guskin got the bill for the Britney Spears concert tickets his daughter, Emily, ordered from Ticketmaster, he was shocked. On top of the $56 price for the July 10 show at Nissan Pavilion was a $3.50 "facility charge," a $9 "convenience charge" and a $4.10 "order processing fee" for each ticket.
"Where is the bathroom fee? The food availability fee?" complains Guskin via e-mail. "The total of various junk fees is $16.60 [per ticket]! This is almost 30 percent of the ticket price itself and about what the entire cost of attending a concert was not that long ago."
Guskin, a Potomac resident, thinks the fees are "absurdly large."
But such objections are nothing new to the world's biggest provider of automated ticketing services. Ticketmaster has long been a complaint magnet largely because of its seemingly superfluous fees. Consumers like Guskin who are already hot over paying big bucks for concert, show or sports tickets feel they're getting burned by add-on charges that jack up the advertised ticket price by 20 to 50 percent, depending on the event.
Some consumers have even taken Ticketmaster to court over the fees, though without success. Most cases are dismissed. Or, as with a 1994 New York lawsuit that alleged the fees were excessive, the courts found that the fees are "always disclosed" and didn't constitute deceptive business practices.
"When computerized ticketing first started 25 year ago, people deemed it an incredible convenience. . . . Now it has been deemed a necessity and people wonder why they have to pay for that necessity," says Ticketmaster spokesman Larry Solters, adding there's a reasonable explanation for each of the additional charges.
For instance, that processing fee? It covers Ticketmaster's expenses in filling a ticket purchase -- from its agents taking the order and finding available seating over the phone or online, to arranging shipping or will-call pickup.
What raises more hackles is the "convenience charge." As Guskin says, paying $9 for convenience seems "redundant and excessive . . . since any convenience the customer might incur is for processing his or her order."
But Solters says the fee provides for the convenience of being able to buy tickets 24 hours a day in any of several easy ways.
"If he didn't want to use the Ticketmaster convenience, he could get in his car, take time off from work, drive out to Nissan, go to the box office, buy the tickets, drive back to work," he says. "What Ticketmaster affords you is the opportunity to buy tickets off-site via phones, online and ticket outlets -- and there is a cost associated with that."
And don't blame Ticketmaster for the "facility fee." Although the ticketing agency collects it, the money goes to the venue -- in this case Nissan Pavilion. "Which makes it no less obnoxious," says Guskin. "Will movie theaters and bowling alleys soon also charge building facility charges?"
Nissan Pavilion spokeswoman Brooke Kent explains that "the facility fee is Nissan's parking fee" since concertgoers pay nothing when they drive into the lots.
Meanwhile, most of the extra charges are a moot point for Guskin, at least this time around. Britney Spears's summer tour has been canceled because of the performer's knee injury.
"Supposedly, we get it all back except for the $4.10 processing fee," says Guskin. "Why isn't that refundable as well?"
Solters says Ticketmaster is refunding the ticket price and all fees but not the processing charge "if they did the mail order through the Internet or by phone" because it performed the service.
When a show is canceled, he says, Ticketmaster does twice the work -- selling the tickets and making the refunds -- for no revenue. And the customer, he adds, "has the benefit of not having to leave his house to get his refund."
But Guskin isn't convinced. He says not many other retail industries treat customers that way. "Perhaps they performed a service, but so does any store when you buy something and then return it. They don't have the nerve to keep part of the charge," he says. "If [Solter's] service logic works, why can't they charge when you just make an inquiry and don't buy? They performed a service then, didn't they?"
The upshot, counters Solters, is that Ticketmaster is all about making ticket-buying easy. To save on some, but not all, of the add-on fees, buy at the venue's box office and pay in cash.
"The reason Ticketmaster has a viable business," he says, "is because people find it incredibly convenient."
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Ticketmaster's rep tore that guy a new one. Ones can complain all they want, but there's no merit in the Ticketmaster are bastards argument - they're not making you buy tickets, and thy're not making you buy tickets through them. This paragraph pretty much sums up the long and short of it.
"If he didn't want to use the Ticketmaster convenience, he could get in his car, take time off from work, drive out to Nissan, go to the box office, buy the tickets, drive back to work," he says. "What Ticketmaster affords you is the opportunity to buy tickets off-site via phones, online and ticket outlets -- and there is a cost associated with that."
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while it's not usually the case the tm person might have wanted his facts about buying tickets at the nissan boxoffice... based on past experience with clear channel venues they'll soak you with a ticketmaster level fee for buying tickets at the boxoffice.
even if a online ticket company were run as non-profit people would complain about the extra charges....
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I hate Ticketbastard more than just about anything I can think of, but part of what has made them so successful is the fact that they figured out how to sucker money out of people and totally justify it. As excessive and unneccesary as those charges seem, they get away with it time and again because a) they have their excuses down to a science and b) they have no major competition (besides tickets.com I guess).
I still love being able to just walk up to the 9:30 Club box office, pay my $1 fee, and walk away with my ticket in hand. Even better are those nights when there is a show I want to see and only 300 people are there...I don't worry about buying a ticket in advance and I can just walk right up to the window. Of course back in the days of the old club you'd walk down that long corridor and the stench would be enough to wake the dead. But I still miss those days too.
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Originally posted by elj:
Ticketmaster's rep tore that guy a new one. Ones can complain all they want, but there's no merit in the Ticketmaster are bastards argument - they're not making you buy tickets, and thy're not making you buy tickets through them. This paragraph pretty much sums up the long and short of it.
"If he didn't want to use the Ticketmaster convenience, he could get in his car, take time off from work, drive out to Nissan, go to the box office, buy the tickets, drive back to work," he says. "What Ticketmaster affords you is the opportunity to buy tickets off-site via phones, online and ticket outlets -- and there is a cost associated with that."
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I disagree, I think these two paragraphs do, as they try to explain the difference between a processing fee (what you pay them so that they can accomplish their service, with all overhead costs included, etc) and the convenience fee, which is double the processing fee (um, what they get for, um, existing?):
What raises more hackles is the "convenience charge." As Guskin says, paying $9 for convenience seems "redundant and excessive . . . since any convenience the customer might incur is for processing his or her order."
But Solters says the fee provides for the convenience of being able to buy tickets 24 hours a day in any of several easy ways.
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there aughtta be a law.
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
even if a online ticket company were run as non-profit people would complain about the extra charges....
I disagree, I'd be fine with a clear, unchanging and reasonable ticket fee. But at 50% of the cost of the ticket, it raises my hackles. I'm lucky to live in a city, near most of the venues I frequent.
Shouldn't it cost the same to process all tickets, regardless of which show the ticket is for? So, shouldn't there be a flat fee for processing -- $5 across the board?
Hey Bunnyman, I remember that long, smelly hallway! It was so odd to be there midday, too. :D But it was four blocks from my office and I hit it all the time. Nearly all of us agree, 9:30 Club, old and new, rocks!
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All i have to say is that i have noy YET been to the 930 club this year because i wont pay service charges and i dont live in DC.
maybe its my misfortune and i am missing all the good shows, but i am sure I'm not alone.
(I have ATTTEMPED to go to 2 shows the night of, both of which sold out)
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
All i have to say is that i have noy YET been to the 930 club this year because i wont pay service charges and i dont live in DC.
If there's a show you really want to go to, you should let us know -- I'd be happy to get you a ticket and mail it or leave it at Will Call if I'm going as well...
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Originally posted by Bagalicious Tangster:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
All i have to say is that i have noy YET been to the 930 club this year because i wont pay service charges and i dont live in DC.
If there's a show you really want to go to, you should let us know -- I'd be happy to get you a ticket and mail it or leave it at Will Call if I'm going as well... [/b]
well arent you sweet!!
I might take you up on that one day :) I am going on Thursday and did but my tickets on tickets.com cause i really really wanna see the Streets. (and paid $52 for 2-$20 tickets)
I am looking right now to see if there is another show i can get tickets for while I'm there, but nothings jumping out :roll:
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yes, i usually hop on my bike during lunch hour and visit the lonely box office folk at the club. i too am always happy to collect tickets for others.
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Originally posted by Bagalicious Tangster:
But Guskin isn't convinced. He says not many other retail industries treat customers that way. "Perhaps they performed a service, but so does any store when you buy something and then return it. They don't have the nerve to keep part of the charge," he says.
Actually, some places are now charging "restocking" fees - often about 15-20% or so of the price of the item.
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one of the cost at hand is what visa, master card and amex charge companies to process charges, which is typically a flat rate regardless of the amount charged. so as the ticket price goes up the more expensive the fee. now ticketmaster may have negotiated a "preferred" fee but they still gotta pay the credit card companies. this is also mentioned on the missiontix faq...
most companies don't charge extra for using credit cards because it's a cost of doing business. but since ticketmaster dosen't actually own the tickets they are selling, they would never make any profit if they didn't recover the fee from the buyer to process the credit card.
the alternatives to ticketmaster would be either having only the venue boxoffice sell them. which would favor scaplers because they can hire hundreds of people to lineup when tickets go on sale.
selling them through brokers who could then add whatever service convience charges they want to the tickets... brokers can hold back the good tickets for preferred clients.
it would be foolish for ticketmaster to be the only broker as well...
complain about ticketmaster all you want but it is convient and in theory you have better access at the ticket than what would happen if you limited access.
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Originally posted by Bagalicious Tangster:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
All i have to say is that i have noy YET been to the 930 club this year because i wont pay service charges and i dont live in DC.
If there's a show you really want to go to, you should let us know -- I'd be happy to get you a ticket and mail it or leave it at Will Call if I'm going as well... [/b]
Sonick, same here, a few times I've bought tickets for people on here and mailed them out. Luckily, they paid me when they got the ticket. :D
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
most companies don't charge extra for using credit cards because it's a cost of doing business. but since ticketmaster dosen't actually own the tickets they are selling, they would never make any profit if they didn't recover the fee from the buyer to process the credit card.
But isn't this fee something like 2%? On a $20 ticket, that would be about 40 cents. TM is charging 10-times that much.
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i dunno i'm probably talking out my ase as usual... regardless it's better than a broker based system which was in place prior to advent of the companies that became ticketmaster.
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Originally posted by Skeeter:
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
most companies don't charge extra for using credit cards because it's a cost of doing business. but since ticketmaster dosen't actually own the tickets they are selling, they would never make any profit if they didn't recover the fee from the buyer to process the credit card.
But isn't this fee something like 2%? On a $20 ticket, that would be about 40 cents. TM is charging 10-times that much. [/b]
everyone can make a point for everything. legally ticketmaster isnt doing anything wrong. but morally it just sucks. doing a percentage of the ticket price would be nice, but wouldnt it really cost the same to process a $2 ticket as it would a $200 ticket?
its just damn unfortunate and i would like to NEVER use ticketmaster. but because so many people do...that if i dont buy tickets as soon as they go on sale or whenver i have time, they often sell out before i get around to buying.
i just sorta wish they would add SOME of those charges in with the ticket price.
I would feel better paying $60 for a $50 ticket with $10 service fees, than i would paying $60 for a $40 ticket and $20 of service fees, wouldnt you?
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then people would complain about the price of tickets...
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
then people would complain about the price of tickets...
of course, but at least they would feel cheated by the band and venues, not the ticket company.
its like gasoline. probably $1 of your $2.06 goes to buying the gas. the rest goes to the gas station, the oil company, the govt, taxes, freight charges, etc etc. but they dont say "gas is $1.09 with a $.48 service fee per gallon and a $.29 convenience charge per gallon and a $.19 fuel pump charge per gallon, etc"
then you would be bitching out Exxon and BP instead of just being like "man, gas prices are high"
seems like Ticketmaster would want to do that so people would stop hating them so much.
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One thing people are saying is how they're fine with a "reasonable fee" but not Ticketmaster's fee. How is their fee not reasonable? If Ticketmaster will charge me less in fees then it'd cost me to drive to the venue (and take off work) and buy a ticket there, then certainly it's reasonable. In fact, I'd maintain that if I went to the venue in that situation, I'd be at least unreasonable if not idiotic. Just because you all don't like the justification of what the fee is for - tough cookies. They can call it a "line our pockets" fee and I'll still pay it if it's my best option.
All this "the fees are too high, it should be xx%" nonsense is just that - nonsense. You all run an international ticketing agency? You know the costs associated with it? Show me your business plan for getting by on less. This company saves you time (and in many cases money) by allowing you to buy tickets from home, and you're mad this business wants to make some $$ doing it. Shudder, gasp.
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Originally posted by elj:
They can call it a "line our pockets" fee and I'll still pay it if it's my best option.
I bet if they called it a "I'm a dumbass" fee, you'd be the first in line.
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Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
I bet if they called it a "I'm a dumbass" fee, you'd be the first in line.
What a mature response. I'm impressed by your skill in refuting the points I made.
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Originally posted by elj:
This company saves you time (and in many cases money) by allowing you to buy tickets from home, and you're mad this business wants to make some $$ doing it. Shudder, gasp.
The fact that ticket master charges service charges on each ticket, even though purchasing say 10 tickets is a single transaction....
The fact that the service charge increases as the ticket price increases.
The fact that you are hit by not one, but 3 individual charges by ticketmaster.
The fact that ticketmaster routinely makes 1/3 of the price of the ticket.
Personally I dont think Ticketmaster is a great deal. But I am rarely driven to moan about it. For you I will make an exception.
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Originally posted by elj:
What a mature response. I'm impressed by your skill in refuting the points I made.
I Like Guiny, so I'll give it a shot.
Many people think that ticketmaster is in fact breaking the law. They have been sued on the basis that they have a monopoly and that they were anti-competitve (most notably, by Pearl Jam).
The Justice Department ruled that Ticketmaster did not have a monopoly because no one was trying to enter the market. Good luck to anyone trying. For those that are old enough to remember Ticketron, the only real threat to Ticketmaster, they were forced out of the marktet by Ticketmaster. After all of the contracts were set with vendors (records stores, etc.), there was no way there could be a viable competitor.
The anti-competition practices that allowed TM to charge outrageous fees were then blamed on the vendors, who needed to make money. The band (or the record company) and the venue made money on the ticket price, the vendor and TM made money on the service charges. But guess what - very few people buy tickets at vendors any longer. The internet has changed all of that. So has TM reduced it's fees to consumers? Not a bit. Their percentages have actually increased. The good news is that the internet has brought a few competitiors back into the market, but by agreements with Clear Channel and venues, small competitors like tickets.com are left out of the bigger picture, and TM still rakes in fees that were once questioned by the Justice Department with out the vendor excuse TM used in 1994.
So thank TM all you want for making tickets available to you without having to go to the venue, but I think the issues of Monopoly and anti-competitve practices should be revisited really soon.
The consumer should not be punished for wanting to enjoy entertainment. Yes, all of us joining forces and refusing to buy tickets through TM would make a difference, but why should be made to suffer by their practices - we should be allowed an alternative - many actually.
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
The fact that ticket master charges service charges on each ticket, even though purchasing say 10 tickets is a single transaction....
The fact that the service charge increases as the ticket price increases.
The fact that you are hit by not one, but 3 individual charges by ticketmaster.
The fact that ticketmaster routinely makes 1/3 of the price of the ticket.
You're not addressing at all the crux of my argument: what they give you in return in many cases cannot be acquired cheaper. If I want to buy a ticket to an event at the MCI Center, and I live in Richmond, I have to drive 2 hours each way, pay for gas, and that's not taking in account the waste of 4 hours of my life. And I'd save what? $15 for a set of two tickets? Ticketmaster from a financial standpoint is clearly in my best interest.
I can understand that people don't like paying more money, and I don't either, but from where I sit, it beats the alternatives in many cases (driving to the venue if it's far away, or not going to the show altogether). If it's not worth it to you, fine, that's your perrogative, and I'm not disagreeing with your choice. Or, if the venues close, of course we'd all go there instead of using ticketmaster. My point is I think it's overboard to act like ticketmaster's capitalism is "morally wrong" as one person put it. Everyone who offers a service tries to make some money off it, and they all have their own business model, and comparing this service industry's model to another's is counterintuitive. If the service is worth it to you, then buy it, if not, then don't, but please don't act like it's a "moral stand" or that a company is evil for providing you with a choice.
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Ditto to Markie's points. I'll pay it if I need to, I support competitive markets (which ticket sales agencies does not represent, by the way), and I'll complain if I want to because it seems unreasonable. Much of Ticketmaster's M.O. is just not sensible. But, they have a virtual monopoly, so we deal, but we can think they're the friggin' devil if we want.
Just wait until Clear Channel buys Ticketmaster. The meek will inherit the earth -- YEAH, RIGHT.
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Originally posted by elj:
that a company is evil for providing you with a choice.
I find that the company is evil when I dont have a choice, such is the case with pre-sales in which the show will sell out and when tickets are not readily available any other way, say for lollapalooza.
But Vansmack did a much better job of addressing the points than I.
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Originally posted by elj:
You're not addressing at all the crux of my argument: what they give you in return in many cases cannot be acquired cheaper. If I want to buy a ticket to an event at the MCI Center, and I live in Richmond, I have to drive 2 hours each way, pay for gas, and that's not taking in account the waste of 4 hours of my life. And I'd save what? $15 for a set of two tickets? Ticketmaster from a financial standpoint is clearly in my best interest.
So because I live 15 minutes away and it would only cost me $1.04 in gas to go to the venue, my charges should be cheaper? How do you measure convenience -- based on your residence in Richmond, or mine in Woodley Park?
Yes, they charge a "convenience fee," and they're getting it, but that does not mean they aren't overcharging. As Smackie's pointed out, Ticketmaster is not subject to rational competitive forces that keep markets fair and level the playing field. Whether or not this is legal (at this point) is to be decided by the courts, but as a participant in an emerging competitive market, I can tell you that Ticketmaster is not subject to sufficient competitive pressures to keep them in check. In other markets, that would call for mitigation schemes.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
The consumer should not be punished for wanting to enjoy entertainment. Yes, all of us joining forces and refusing to buy tickets through TM would make a difference, but why should be made to suffer by there practices - we should be allowed an alternative - many actually.
I agree with that. I do think of Ticketmaster as a choice, one of mainly two we currently have: ticketmaster or venue's box office. I, as I'm sure the rest of you do, weigh the options and chosse which of those two works best for me for each concert. I don't really see tickets.com or any of the smaller ticket brokers getting increased access to see tickets to venues making ticketmaster's prices drop precipitously. Most of the smaller ticket brokers I've bought through (musictoday, tickets.com, groovetickets.com) have fees on par with that of ticketmaster, and while I'm sure a little healthy competition will do a little, I doubt it'll be much.
Does anyone know what ticketmaster makes in a year? I have to wonder with all these ticket brokers running fees at around the same price, is it possible that that's simply the precentage and model that this particular industry needs to exist?
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Originally posted by Bagalicious Tangster:
[So because I live 15 minutes away and it would only cost me $1.04 in gas to go to the venue, my charges should be cheaper? How do you measure convenience -- based on your residence in Richmond, or mine in Woodley Park?
Yes, they charge a "convenience fee," and they're getting it, but that does not mean they aren't overcharging.
I would say I would measure convenience with regards to me, and you would measure it with regards to you. A certain consumer may think paying $50 for a kid to mow your lawn is ridiculous, while another finds it perfectly acceptable, just as you might (correctly) find it stupid to pay $8 to save you a 5 minute drive, and I might find it prudent to pay $8 to save me a 2 hour drive. That's an essence of business, I'd think.
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Originally posted by elj:
I don't really see tickets.com or any of the smaller ticket brokers getting increased access to see tickets to venues making ticketmaster's prices drop precipitously. Most of the smaller ticket brokers I've bought through (musictoday, tickets.com, groovetickets.com) have fees on par with that of ticketmaster, and while I'm sure a little healthy competition will do a little, I doubt it'll be much.
I'm not as skeptical as you. We haven't had a chance to see what a little fair market will do to the service charges. Ticketmaster took over the internet distributors as well - they bought CitySearch (a "local" internet distibutor) and sued anybody who tried to set up a new destination site for tickets (Microsoft). How funny is that - one Monopoly suing another?
They gain over 50% of the revenue from internet sales. But why wouldn't they - the charge is the same, they just don't have to pay the vendor. THE EXACT REASON THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SAID THEY WEREN'T ANTI-COMPETITIVE.
Originally posted by elj:
Does anyone know what ticketmaster makes in a year? I have to wonder with all these ticket brokers running fees at around the same price, is it possible that that's simply the precentage and model that this particular industry needs to exist?
This is a tough argument because Ticketmaster is owned by IAC (InterActiveCorp.) who also owns a slew of web sites that you probably use:
IAC consists of IAC Travel, which includes Expedia, Inc., Hotels.com, Hotwire, Interval International, and TV Travel Shop; HSN; Ticketmaster, which oversees ReserveAmerica; Match.com; LendingTree; Precision Response Corporation; IAC Local and Media Services, which includes Citysearch, Evite, Entertainment Publications, Inc. and TripAdvisor, Inc.; and IAC Interactive Development which includes ZeroDegrees.
I'm not sure of the revenue, but the web site claims that ticketmaster sold $4.9 Billion worth of tickets in 2003.
Just remember, every plane ticket from Hotwire (owned by the same company) has a $5 service charge. A concert ticket can be three times that. Why? Competition. You can buy the same ticket from three competitors or the source, all online for the same or no service charge. Care to try your argument again?
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i was going to write out a well-constructed response, but vansmack elucidated everything i was going to say.
however, i would like to mention that the "processing fee" is utter bullshit. i worked for a small non-profit music promoter that booked world music events, and part of my responsibilities was to process tickets via the internet and phone. i can tell you that this did not take much effort, certainly not $4 per ticket, and this was at a company that barely had any money to work with. the money doesn't even go back to the employee processing those tickets; they make slightly higher than minimum wage.
ticketbastard is a monopoly and a microcosm of the problem of unregulated capitalism. i have no problem with their concept and paying a reasonable fee, but the excessive fees that they charge is ludicrous. they are making money off of the bands and the venues, simply by offering a "convenience." i'd rather take my chances with waiting outside.
clear channel's and ticketmaster's greed is astounding. it is no wonder that ticket sales and album sales are slipping. it is not about the music (or whatever entertainment is in question), it is about money and nothing else. smaller venues are dealing with more crap because of this, and something has to be done soon, or we will all suffer for it even more.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Care to try your argument again?
No, you make a good point on what increased competition would do, and I'll agree with you on that. I don't think though that somehow a business taking advantage of their market position is wrong, though. If a court ruled against them, fine, but arm-chair legal ramblings aren't exactly definitive. I still say, unpopular as it might be, that ticketmaster is one choice we have, and that if we didn't have ticketmaster or services like it, attending concerts would be alot harder for many of us, and I appreciate them existing as an option.
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Originally posted by elj:
Originally posted by vansmack:
Care to try your argument again?
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Sorry, that was uncalled for. Ever since a TM fiasco with World Series tickets, I've been (overly)agressive in my opinions of TM.
Originally posted by elj:
I don't think though that somehow a business taking advantage of their market position is wrong, though. If a court ruled against them, fine, but arm-chair legal ramblings aren't exactly definitive. I still say, unpopular as it might be, that ticketmaster is one choice we have, and that if we didn't have ticketmaster or services like it, attending concerts would be alot harder for many of us, and I appreciate them existing as an option.
I do understand the convenience of not living near the venues and liking the TM idea as a service, I just think it can be done differently and I think that TM is using it's market dominance to keep this from happening.
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elj, I'll make this offer to you like I do everyone else, If you wanna save money just e-mail me the show you wanna go to (9#0 Club) and your address. I'll buy the ticket and only ask for the ticket price, 1$ service charge and price of the stamp in return, now how's that for convenience?
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I think elj's so called "argument" is really saying that ticketmaster works good for him, so its a good company.
sounds kinda silly to me. but whatever, you're american.
The only time i have in the last year or two and will buy tickets from ticketmaster is for out of state events. Clearly me going to California to snatch my Coachella tickets would be a little pricey.
But even if i was in California could i get Coachella tickets with no service charge? perhaps not.
Did you ever think that ticketmaster's vast coverage and monopoly may make it nearly impossible to set up outlets with little or no service charge excluding the box office itself.
We used to sell tickets to club events via record stores and our own website and no one seemed to care. It all boils down to contracts and payoffs, not convenience.
do you think TM was started cause people felt bad for folks who couldnt make it to the box office?
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Prior to the elimination of Ticketron (which was, I believe, purchased by Ticketmaster), service charges were $1-2. There were no "convenience" fees. No need to go to the venue either -- you'd just drive on over to the department store and get in line. Ticketmaster is only able to charge so much because they are a monopoly. There's no way a Republican administration is going to make them change their behavior (hell, even the Clinton administration backed down), so consumers are stuck dealing with one of the main problems with capitalism, concentration of access to resources in the hands of one party who can charge whatever they want.
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Christ, I live north of Baltimore and I can drive down to the club and back to buy my ticket and still have gas left over based on what those fees are. And that's for 1 ticket and today's cost of gas! Sure, I'd still have to go to the trouble of driving down. The point is that the fees are just way too high. So many others, especially my lawyer Smackie and Snailhook, made the same points I'd make so won't go off on some of them.
At one time I worked as a travel agent which is, in essence, a very similiar job accept it actually involves a whole lot more promotion, sales and work. We charged NO fees whatsoever but we did make a commission, which would be what Sonick would prefer as a price worked into the ticket. The thing was, if a trip was cancelled, we didn't get shit! Of course, it depended on who cancelled and why. There were sometimes (but not always) cancellation fees in some instances if cxled by the client for reasons other than health or death. If for any reason the trip was cancelled by the vendor or changed in some way unsuitable towards the client, the client got every single penny back and no one received any kind of payment regardless of all the work we did and expenses that were incurred.
As a travel agent, ironically, usually, the cheaper the ticket or trip, the more work was involved. And I mean LOTS more work! But I'm getting off track there with my thought being that there's no good reason for charging so much more for higher priced shows.
Regarding ticket service companies that keep fees on cxled events: yes, to a point, I can understand expecting some sort of payment for work done. But what about everyone else who put out expenses for an event? The bands, the venues, the promoters, sponsors, etc... If my understanding is correct, they don't get one red cent yet the ticketing agencies are keeping every penny of their profits, whatever they want to call them.
Lastly, credit card companies charge vendors a 2% fee with American Express charging a little bit more. Now, I was always under the impression that if something was cancelled or returned that they too lost their fee. Not sure on that point.
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
I would feel better paying $60 for a $50 ticket with $10 service fees, than i would paying $60 for a $40 ticket and $20 of service fees, wouldnt you? [/QB]
see, now, this is where I think people are overthinking this
the bottom line should be do you wanna pay $60 for that ticket - shouldn't matter which part of it goes where - figuring that out isn't going to change anything
I do think that all service charges should be refunded in the event of a cancellation, but both companies (TM/Tickets.com) do that so there doesn't seem to be a way around it
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
Originally posted by sonickteam2:
I would feel better paying $60 for a $50 ticket with $10 service fees, than i would paying $60 for a $40 ticket and $20 of service fees, wouldnt you? [/b]
see, now, this is where I think people are overthinking this
[/QB]
what else do we have to do at work?
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
the bottom line should be do you wanna pay $60 for that ticket - shouldn't matter which part of it goes where - figuring that out isn't going to change anything
Well, yeah. Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not the show is worth $60 to me. But I can't help feeling ripped off if I request one $40 ticket and the total comes to $60.
But it does matter to me where the money goes. I'd be more inclined to pay a little more if I thought the money was going to the artist, or even the club, rather than some large, faceless corporation with questionable business practices trying to make as much money off of me as they possibly can.
I know that's just a matter of perception - I really have no idea how the money is split-up. But sometimes it does make a difference to me.
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How come fandango can sell cinema tickets for only a $1 premium?
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
the bottom line should be do you wanna pay $60 for that ticket - shouldn't matter which part of it goes where - figuring that out isn't going to change anything
Yeah, I understand that. The problem is that you see the show in the citypaper or w. post and it's $40. When your final price is $60 later during your purchase, it's jarring. Especially if you're buying multiple tickets and what you thought would be $400 is $600.... I realize we should all be doing the math in our heads when we read about a show, but we forget.
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Originally posted by Bagalicious Tangster:
I realize we should all be doing the math in our heads when we read about a show, but we forget.
YEAH! my motto is
thee who makes the money, does the fucking math.
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How about making ticket agencies list the service charges in all advertisements? Sort of like how car dealers have to list the amount of money required to sign up for a lease, or their "price-as-shown" notices in their commercials. Similarly, all facility fees and required parking fees would have to be listed.
Yeah - I know that would be difficult...just a thought.
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
see, now, this is where I think people are overthinking this
the bottom line should be do you wanna pay $60 for that ticket - shouldn't matter which part of it goes where - figuring that out isn't going to change anything
That's an odd position to take and I'm surprised by it. Then why do you offer tickets at the box office for a $1 fee?
The truth is, some of us do care where our money goes. I prefer it not to go to Clear Channel by opting not to go to concerts in their venues whenever possible. I prefer it not to go to TicketMaster so I go out of my way to buy tickets from non-TM vendors whenever possible. I prefer it to go to Seth Hurwitz rather than Dave Grohl because he spends time on the message board and appears to really care about both his patrons and bringing music to the area.
Furthering on your statement, then why even make any effort to curtail scalping?
If I'm willing to pay $100 for a Beastie Boys ticket and someone is willing to sell it, it shouldn't matter where the money goes....
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
see, now, this is where I think people are overthinking this
the bottom line should be do you wanna pay $60 for that ticket - shouldn't matter which part of it goes where - figuring that out isn't going to change anything
That's an odd position to take and I'm surprised by it. Then why do you offer tickets at the box [/b]
actually, thats a great point!!!! if i buy a ticket online, i pay a building/parking/convenience charge, but if i go to the box office....do i not pay the facility or parking charge? just the convenience? perhaps this isnt true for 930 but perhaps some cases it may be the case?
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
How come fandango can sell cinema tickets for only a $1 premium?
Oh that is a good question Mark E. I had never thought of that. Maybe ticketmaster are just scam artists afterall.
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
Originally posted by mark e smith:
How come fandango can sell cinema tickets for only a $1 premium?
Oh that is a good question Mark E. I had never thought of that. Maybe ticketmaster are just scam artists afterall. [/b]
talk amongst yourselves.
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Originally posted by mark e smith:
Originally posted by mark e smith:
How come fandango can sell cinema tickets for only a $1 premium?
Oh that is a good question Mark E. I had never thought of that. Maybe ticketmaster are just scam artists afterall. [/b]
Crying out for attention are we?
Maybe it's because they can sell more volume because there are more theaters than concert venues and more movies than concerts, thus they can spread their profits around? Maybe it's just that they're more efficient. Maybe it's what the market dictates because there's less demand and more options? I don't really know.
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Originally posted by vansmack:
Maybe it's because they can sell more volume because there are more theaters than concert venues and more movies than concerts, thus they can spread their profits around? Maybe it's just that they're more efficient. Maybe it's what the market dictates because there's less demand and more options? I don't really know.
Well there are more theatres, and multiple showings a day. But I bet only a small proportion of tickets, in total, are sold on Fandango.
I guess they just do not have a monopoly. You can go to a different theatre at a different time to avoid the service charge.
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to answer a few of the above posts:
we only charge $1 at the box office (and $0, of course, for the show going on) because we're already up and running, whereas a ticket company is up and running for the sole function of selling tickets��and we want to encourage people to buy tix while they're there��and I really think that people ought to have the opportunity somewhere to buy tickets for face value (or close) besides the night of
and when you talk about who is more deserving of the money��I can tell you that most of the people that I deal with, at either ticket company, are way better people than most of the bands I deal with
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artist agents are the scum of the earth in my opinion
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Originally posted by Seth Hurwitz:
and when you talk about who is more deserving of the money��I can tell you that most of the people that I deal with, at either ticket company, are way better people than most of the bands I deal with
I know a manager who could use a small attitude adjustment, and a clue, among other things.
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ticketmaster sucks shit. i ordered a pair of tix sunday night to a show in philly via the ticketmaster website. then i get an automated phone message monday saying something is wrong with the address verification. i call back, and apparently some computer system is saying my billing address doesn't match my current address. asswipe operator calls my cc company and gets it handled. get same automated message yesterday and spent three hours on the phone today attempting to get it handled. the whole time ticketmaster is saying it is my cc company's fault, however, i was put on three way with reps from my cc company, and their parent company, and at all times, the address was correct, and the reps pointed the finger at ticketmaster. i requested to talk to a supervisor several times and was rebuffed, then finally got one. i apparently lodged a formal complaint over one customer service dickhead, and the only other thing that could be done by the super. was refund the $5 processing, and ups the tix out. i really want to blow their asses up!
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Some of this has already been said, but here's my two cents:
I have no problem with Ticketmaster trying to make a buck and providing a service, esp. over the Internet, which is helpful. And i understand that there are costs of doing business, and % on credit card transactions and all that.
But the main problems i have are the enomorous inconsistencies on the "convenience fees". There's no consistency on the level of the fees from event to even. Plus, they go up exponentially when the base price of the ticket is more. TM does it b/c they can get it away with it. Period. They figure if someone is already paying $100, they may as well charge them $15-20 more on the fees. Even when there are different ticket prices at the same show (i.e., $35 for a nosebleed vs. $200 for a floor seat), the fees will be much higher for the higher priced seats.
Plus, the fees at one show by one band will differ from another show with another band even when the ticket prices are the same. That has nothing to do with credit card fees, etc. The same thing happens with sporting events.
The other problem is that you never know what the fees are until the order is being processed. They don't list it anywhere until you're actually buying them. And I think the reason for that is that they set the fees for each individual event depending on what they think they can charge.
As long as TM has the market cornered, it will continue.
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ok..someone is trying to take on ticketbastard again...wish them much success
https://consequence.net/2023/01/zach-bryan-2023-tour-dates/
Zach Bryan has taken the sentiment of his recent live album All My Homies Hate Ticketmaster one step further by sidestepping the ticket platform entirely for his newly announced 2023 North American tour. To accompany the announcement, Bryan shared a video of comedian Theo Von breaking down the relatively affordable ticket prices and his plan for avoiding the issues that plagued Taylor Swift’s “The Eras Tour” pre-sale.
this vid is great https://twitter.com/zachlanebryan/status/1616120970489610266
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potentially related, if you a sufficiently creative thinker:
AMC Theaters is changing the way it charges for seats. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/06/business/amc-movie-ticket-prices/index.html)
America’s largest movie chain announced that the prices of a ticket will now be based on seat location, meaning seats in the front will be cheaper while more desirable seats in the middle will now cost more. The ticket pricing initiative, called Sightline at AMC, will roll out at all of its roughly 1,000 movie theaters by the end of the year.
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potentially related, if you a sufficiently creative thinker:
AMC Theaters is changing the way it charges for seats. (https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/06/business/amc-movie-ticket-prices/index.html)
America’s largest movie chain announced that the prices of a ticket will now be based on seat location, meaning seats in the front will be cheaper while more desirable seats in the middle will now cost more. The ticket pricing initiative, called Sightline at AMC, will roll out at all of its roughly 1,000 movie theaters by the end of the year.
This has been de rigeur in Julian’s America for years. Want a better viewing experience? Rent out a minor theater in Cannes and schedule a private out-of-competition showing with the Director like everyone else.
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schedule a private out-of-competition showing with the Director like everyone else.
the director doesn't rent himself out to anyone with a theater buy-out in france, thank you very much.
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schedule a private out-of-competition showing with the Director like everyone else.
the director doesn't rent himself out to anyone with a theater buy-out in france, thank you very much.
Are we talking about the hypothetical film’s director or THE DIRECTOR?
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Applesauce.