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=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 06, 2004, 03:51:00 pm

Title: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 06, 2004, 03:51:00 pm
Anybody have any comments on this?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: redsock on May 06, 2004, 04:00:00 pm
Sure, one more shitty cover-up by this administration that, ultimately, will likely not be enough to get themm thrown out of White House. I wonder what it will really take?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 06, 2004, 04:05:00 pm
But what exactly is so horrible about making a prisoner wear ladies underwear while having sex in front of him. Are these REALLY abuses?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 06, 2004, 04:16:00 pm
obviously I think it's wrong to humiliate and abuse people, but I think this case has been blown WAY out of proportion
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: paige on May 06, 2004, 04:16:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
  But what exactly is so horrible about making a prisoner wear ladies underwear while having sex in front of him. Are these REALLY abuses?
it's what markie does in his free time   :p
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Shadrach on May 06, 2004, 04:16:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by redsock:
  Sure, one more shitty cover-up by this administration that, ultimately, will likely not be enough to get themm thrown out of White House. I wonder what it will really take?
Where's the cover up? No one at the White House is denying that it happened. In fact they are outraged, as they should be. It's not like Bush or his advisors are over there taking shifts as prison guards. I can think of plenty of reasons to hate Bush, but this one needs to fall directly on the shoulders of those U.S. Military personnel involved
 
 Personally I think it's an outrage what has gone on. Prisoners of war have certain rights under the Geneva Convention to be treated humanely and those scumbags violated their rights as human beings. How many times have Americans cried out for justice because of the way other countries treat their P.O.W.â??s? It's just another example of Americans thinking we are above everyone else and above justice. I hope all those involved have to serve time in the Leavenworth Military Prison in Kansas.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: jkeisenh on May 06, 2004, 04:20:00 pm
Remember... Bush is claiming this isn't a real war, thus the Geneva Convention doesn't apply, so what happened is wrong but not illegal under international law.  Oh, and we boycotted the World Court anyway, so who cares, right?  Bleh.
 
 Did anyone notice that also in this morning's paper was a nice picture of Bush's happy campaign tour through the Midwest?  Dude, your country, its economy, your stupid worthless war, and your ratings are all going to sh*t.  Maybe now's not the best time for a victory lap.
 
 As if the entire middle east didn't already hate us, we just keep giving them more and more reasons.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 06, 2004, 04:24:00 pm
The country has "gone to shit" under Bush, yet the best Kerry can do is pull even in the polls.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by chimbly sweep:
  Remember... Bush is claiming this isn't a real war, thus the Geneva Convention doesn't apply, so what happened is wrong but not illegal under international law.  Oh, and we boycotted the World Court anyway, so who cares, right?  Bleh.
 
 Did anyone notice that also in this morning's paper was a nice picture of Bush's happy campaign tour through the Midwest?  Dude, your country, its economy, your stupid worthless war, and your ratings are all going to sh*t.  Maybe now's not the best time for a victory lap.
 
 As if the entire middle east didn't already hate us, we just keep giving them more and more reasons.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: jkeisenh on May 06, 2004, 04:26:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  obviously I think it's wrong to humiliate and abuse people, but I think this case has been blown WAY out of proportion
Sorry for two posts in a row, but I have to reply...
 Have YOU ever been incarcerated?  Have you lost all liberties, been hogtied, been stripsearched?
 
 I've been arrested on a number of occasions, often for not doing anything illegal.  And let me tell you, your captors have absolute power over you.  It's the worst feeling ever.  Need to pee?  Sorry, not now.  Hungry?  Nope, you wait.  If they tell you to do something, you do it, no choices.  It's horrible.  Now, imagine having your captor strip you naked.  Imagine having to do some of the things you've seen pictures of.
 
 Have you seen "Das Experiment?"  
 
 There's no blowing out of proportion when power is abused and people's basic human rights are denied them.  If you think it's overblown, try to think of yourself in that position...
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 06, 2004, 04:26:00 pm
They hate us because of their religious fundamentalism and our ties with Israel. They'll hate us no matter what we do because we are "infidels".
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Venerable Bede on May 06, 2004, 04:26:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by chimbly sweep:
  Did anyone notice that also in this morning's paper was a nice picture of Bush's happy campaign tour through the Midwest?  Dude, your country, its economy, your stupid worthless war, and your ratings are all going to sh*t.  Maybe now's not the best time for a victory lap.
 
apparently, you missed this article:
 
 Productivity Grows, Jobless Claims Drop
 
 1 hour, 33 minutes ago  
 
 By JEANNINE AVERSA, Associated Press Writer
 
 WASHINGTON - The productivity of America's companies rose solidly in the opening quarter of this year, and new filings for jobless benefits plunged last week to their lowest level in more than three years, good news for the country's economic health.
 
 The Labor Department (news - web sites) reported Thursday that productivity â?? the amount an employee produces for every hour on the job â?? rose at a 3.5 percent annual rate in the January-to-March quarter, up from a 2.5 percent pace registered in the previous quarter.
 
 The latest reading on productivity marked the best showing since the third quarter of 2003 and matched analysts' forecasts.
 
 In a second report from the department, new applications filed for unemployment insurance dropped by a seasonally adjusted 25,000 to 315,000, for the week ending May 1. That marked the lowest level since Oct. 28, 2000.
 
 The layoffs picture presented by the jobless claims filings looked better than economists had expected. They had forecast claims to dip to around 335,000 last week.
 
 "The employment picture is brightening," said Sherry Cooper, chief economist at BMO Nesbitt Burns.
 
 On Wall Street, however, stocks fell. The Dow Jones industrials were off 75 points and the Nasdaq was down 23 points in morning trading.
 
 In other economic news, consumers retrenched a bit in April, leaving many retailers with modest sales gains for the month. Cool weather, particularly in the Northeast, hurt results at many stores. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Limited Brands, TJX Cos. and Talbots Inc. were among the retailers reporting disappointing sales.
 
 On the productivity front, efficiency gains are important to the economy's long-term vitality. They allow the economy to grow faster without igniting inflation. Companies can pay workers more without raising prices, which would eat up those wage gains. And productivity can bolster a company's profitability.
 
 As profits improve, companies may be more willing to step up hiring and capital spending, key ingredients to making the national economy's recovery lasting.
 
 Federal Reserve (news - web sites) Chairman Alan Greenspan (news - web sites) and his colleagues, in deciding Tuesday to hold a key interest rate at a 46-year low of 1 percent, said such low rates along with productivity gains are helping to support economic activity.
 
 Looking ahead, Greenspan told a banking conference Thursday he expected productivity growth to slow a bit but that gains should still be good. "Even though the longer-term prospects for innovation and respectable productivity growth are encouraging, some near-term slowing ... seems likely," he said.
 
 During the economic slump, gains in productivity came at the expense of workers. Companies produced more with fewer employees. Although companies are still somewhat cautious in hiring, they did produce more with modest increases to workers' hours in the last three quarters.
 
 In the January-to-March quarter of this year, companies boosted output at a 4.9 percent rate, up from a 4.2 percent pace in the previous quarter. Workers' hours, meanwhile, rose at a 1.3 percent rate in the first quarter, following a 1.6 percent growth rate in the fourth quarter.
 
 Companies' unit labor costs increased at a rate of 0.5 percent in the first quarter, after being flat in the final quarter of last year. It marked the biggest increase in a year.
 
 The economy grew at a healthy 4.2 percent rate in the first quarter of this year, a slight improvement from the 4.1 percent pace registered in the previous quarter. Economists believe the economy is expanding at around a 4.5 percent to 5 percent pace in the current April-to-June quarter.
 
 The nation's employment climate also shows signs of picking up. After months of sluggish payrolls gains, the economy added 308,000 jobs in March, the most in four years. While economists don't believe that pace can currently be sustained, many are calling for payrolls to grow by a net 168,000 in April, which would represent respectable job growth. The government releases the employment report for April on Friday.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: redsock on May 06, 2004, 04:27:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Shadrach:
   
Quote
Originally posted by redsock:
  Sure, one more shitty cover-up by this administration that, ultimately, will likely not be enough to get themm thrown out of White House. I wonder what it will really take?
Where's the cover up? No one at the White House is denying that it happened. In fact they are outraged, as they should be. It's not like Bush or his advisors are over there taking shifts as prison guards. I can think of plenty of reasons to hate Bush, but this one needs to fall directly on the shoulders of those U.S. Military personnel involved
 
 Personally I think it's an outrage what has gone on. Prisoners of war have certain rights under the Geneva Convention to be treated humanely and those scumbags violated their rights as human beings. How many times have Americans cried out for justice because of the way other countries treat their P.O.W.â??s? It's just another example of Americans thinking we are above everyone else and above justice. I hope all those involved have to serve time in the Leavenworth Military Prison in Kansas. [/b]
They knew about this in February, yet nothing happened. Bush is trying to cover his ass by saying he didn't see the pictures... so what, this makes it ok? Sorry Mr. President, didn't know you missed those pictures. So fucking lame. Nothing happens until someone prints a fucking picture...and in this era of leaning way to the right media, the pictures just don't get out, and don't get talked about, enough.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Venerable Bede on May 06, 2004, 04:29:00 pm
without moving this into a feminist debate, anyone else notice how no one is talking about all the women in the pictures?  talk about being in a position of authority.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 06, 2004, 04:32:00 pm
Originally posted by chimbly sweep:
 
 Have YOU ever been incarcerated?  Have you lost all liberties, been hogtied, been stripsearched?

 
 no, I am a law-abiding citizen who stays out of trouble
 
 I've been arrested on a number of occasions, often for not doing anything illegal.
 
 "often"?
 
 And let me tell you, your captors have absolute power over you.  It's the worst feeling ever.  Need to pee?  Sorry, not now.  Hungry?  Nope, you wait.  If they tell you to do something, you do it, no choices.  It's horrible.  Now, imagine having your captor strip you naked.  Imagine having to do some of the things you've seen pictures of.
 
 I know it's not ideal, but it's a WAR...and the things they've been showing are mild when it comes to war atrocities...I'm not saying it's right.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 06, 2004, 04:41:00 pm
When generals start bandying the old chestnut "Hearts & Minds" on TV then you'll know the war's a total clusterfuck. (http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2471&sound=126)
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Barcelona on May 06, 2004, 04:46:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Shadrach:
  In fact they are outraged, as they should be. It's not like Bush or his advisors are over there taking shifts as prison guards.
I think that the administration, perhaps except for Collin Powell, wouldn't care at all if this hadn't been brought to the public. If they don't care about what they have done in Guantanamo, I think they wouldn't care about what has been going on in Irak. Also, we all know how little US governments have cared in the past about human lives, just look at Guatemala and El Salvador, yes this was 20 years ago, but I think these republicans haven't changed too much.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Guiny on May 06, 2004, 04:48:00 pm
I think those Iraqi prisoners of war are alot better off then the murdered coaliton and American soldiers/contractors that were killed by their captors. Human rights groups don't say shit about that, but the second an American does the smallest thing, those human rights groups who are also American jump all over it......damn assholes!!!!!!!!! They wanna see torture, I'll show their dumbass's what torture is. I also don't think any U.S. soldier/contractor should get jail time, reprimanded yes, but not jailed. If we forgive and forget (which we will eventually do) the terrorists that murder our guys then we shouldnt ruin one of our peoples lives for not letting an Iraqi get more then four hours of sleep at a time.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Fico on May 06, 2004, 04:52:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
 
 I know it's not ideal, but it's a WAR...and the things they've been showing are mild when it comes to war atrocities...I'm not saying it's right.
This is one stupid response if I've ever heard one.... this is sickening and the fact that the people involved will most likely not be submitted to a court martial at the very least sends yet another signal that this administration is arrogant and irresponsible..
 
 Had this been done to US soldiers there wouldn't be enough apologies to prevent an all out revenge on the perpetrators...oh yeah, it was too much for Mr. Bush to say he was sorry... it's a shame that people like Jessica Lynch got a decent treatment in a hospital were medicines and attention where scarce...yet we the superpower with the resources resort to this... to say this has been blown out of proportion is to be incredibly unsensitive to the basic respect of human life and decency...
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: jkeisenh on May 06, 2004, 04:53:00 pm
I have to thank my venegeful, eye-for-an-eye, anti-visionary co-posters for once again reminding me why I live in a nation so widely hated.
 
 "They did it first!"
 "It's not my fault!"
 "He started it!"
 "We're just giving them what they gave us!"
 "It's wrong, but they did it too, so what?!?"
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: brennser on May 06, 2004, 04:53:00 pm
exactly - they're not outraged that it happened - they're just outraged that it leaked out
 
 and can you imagine the shit that must be happening in Gitmo with a more disciplined group of soldiers who aren't dumb enough to take pictures incriminating themselves
 
 and yes, Bede, anyone who opposed women in the military on the grounds that they couldn't be as depraved as men can rest easy now
 
 "But dehumanizing the victim makes things simpler
 It's like breathing with a respirator
 It eases the conscience of even the most conscious
 and calculating violator
 Words can reduce a person to an object,
 something more easy to hate
 An inanimate entity, completely disposable,
 no problem to obliterate"
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Barcelona:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Shadrach:
  In fact they are outraged, as they should be. It's not like Bush or his advisors are over there taking shifts as prison guards.
I think that the administration, perhaps except for Collin Powell, wouldn't care at all if this hadn't been brought to the public. If they don't care about what they have done in Guantanamo, I think they wouldn't care about what has been going on in Irak. Also, we all know how little US governments have cared in the past about human lives, just look at Guatemala and El Salvador, yes this was 20 years ago, but I think these republicans haven't changed too much. [/b]
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 06, 2004, 04:55:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fico:
  t's a shame that people like Jessica Lynch got a decent treatment in a hospital were medicines and attention where scarce
Was this before or after the Iraqis raped her unconscious body???
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Fico on May 06, 2004, 04:59:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
  I think those Iraqi prisoners of war are alot better off then the murdered coaliton and American soldiers/contractors that were killed by their captors. Human rights groups don't say shit about that, but the second an American does the smallest thing, those human rights groups who are also American jump all over it......damn assholes!!!!!!!!! They wanna see torture, I'll show their dumbass's what torture is. I also don't think any U.S. soldier/contractor should get jail time, reprimanded yes, but not jailed. If we forgive and forget (which we will eventually do) the terrorists that murder our guys then we shouldnt ruin one of our peoples lives for not letting an Iraqi get more then four hours of sleep at a time.
Thanks Guiny, you remind me why people like George Bush govern this country when I'm all out of answers. Count yer blessings cos' you will probably never be at the other end of the abuses perpetrated by this and other administrations...but what comes around goes around.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Fico on May 06, 2004, 05:03:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fico:
 
Was this before or after the Iraqis raped her unconscious body??? [/b]
It's the first time I hear of such a thing. Are you running yer gob or has this been documented some place??? the 15 minutes I saw of her on tv seemed to suggest otherwise..
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 06, 2004, 05:07:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fico:
  It's the first time I hear of such a thing.
Then you had better clean the wax from your ears.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: godsshoeshine on May 06, 2004, 05:12:00 pm
well, we didn't find any weapons of mass destruction or terror ties, so america turns to removing a terrible dictator that tortures and murders his own people. it doesn't bode well when it seems apparent that prisoners are murdered and tortured under the liberation. sure, this may be blown out of proportion in our eyes, but does that matter? i think if we put some people in jail, fired a high level d.o.d. employee or two, things will blow over. doubt it will happen though. even if higher level officials didn't know about it, they had subordinates that did. we are not at war with the iraqi people (only a quarter of these people are actually ever charged.), we need them to trust us.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Bags on May 06, 2004, 05:17:00 pm
Good points there, folks.  It's not as bad as it could be, you should see some of the other war atrocities, they tortured our troops  -- yeah, let's torture them just a little less, let's commit atrocities that just aren't the worst....
 
 We are NOT a nation of an eye for an eye ('cept of course in death penalty-crazed Texas -- see a pattern?).  We are supposed to be civilized and seeking freedom for the world's citizens (why we are somehow blessed by [our] god to do so still eludes me, but that's what we do...).  
 
 I don't care if the torture makes the Iraqis hate us more, but what about the rest of the world?  Oh yeah, we already told them to fuck off. Then what about ourselves?
 
 If you don't think we should be holding ourselves to the highest standard, I'm even more afraid of where we're headed as a nation and a people than I thought I was.
 
 All that said, I can't say that I see a reason at this point to blame this on the Bush administration per se.  Sure, they're mostly all neo-con war mongers, but they weren't there and may not have known what's going on in particular facilities. The soldiers involved have violated international law, and there should be proceedings to deal with those violations.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: redsock on May 06, 2004, 05:28:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fico:
  t's a shame that people like Jessica Lynch got a decent treatment in a hospital were medicines and attention where scarce
Was this before or after the Iraqis raped her unconscious body??? [/b]
Sadly, stories like Lynch and Tillman are used far to ofter as pro-war propaganda by the powers that be. Though, I have to admit, the Lynch story has always been a little vague to me. But I guess I should have seen the TV movie made about it all, right?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Guiny on May 06, 2004, 05:34:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Fico:
 [/qb]
Thanks Guiny, you remind me why people like George Bush govern this country when I'm all out of answers. Count yer blessings cos' you will probably never be at the other end of the abuses perpetrated by this and other administrations...but what comes around goes around. [/QB][/QUOTE]
 
 I guess if Sadaam Hussein is on the ballot, you'll be voting for him. Be glad Bush is governing this nation or else you might have already been hung for insulting your leader like Hussein woulda done. I do count my blessing cause i was over there at one time and luckily didnt get ambushed or caught. But i guarentee i'd rather have happen what the Americans did to the Iraqi prisoners and not happen what the insurgents do to us. Hangin' burnt from a bridge just doesn't do it for me.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: vansmack on May 06, 2004, 05:34:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Shadrach:
  Where's the cover up? No one at the White House is denying that it happened.
Quote
Asked about a meeting with Rumsfeld yesterday in which Bush reportedly admonished his defense secretary, the president said, "I told him I should have known about the pictures and the report." In addition to the photos showing Iraqi prisoners being mistreated and humiliated, the military in March received a report from an Army major general detailing the abuse at Abu Ghraib and recommending disciplinary actions and other remedies.
   
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 06, 2004, 05:43:00 pm
I don't recall anyone being hung for insulting ANY American president. I don't think the notion of NOT hanging someone for insulting the president started with the Bush administration.
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Fico:
 [/b]
Thanks Guiny, you remind me why people like George Bush govern this country when I'm all out of answers. Count yer blessings cos' you will probably never be at the other end of the abuses perpetrated by this and other administrations...but what comes around goes around. [/QB]
I guess if Sadaam Hussein is on the ballot, you'll be voting for him. Be glad Bush is governing this nation or else you might have already been hung for insulting your leader like Hussein woulda done. I do count my blessing cause i was over there at one time and luckily didnt get ambushed or caught. But i guarentee i'd rather have happen what the Americans did to the Iraqi prisoners and not happen what the insurgents do to us. Hangin' burnt from a bridge just doesn't do it for me. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 06, 2004, 05:44:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
  I guess if Sadaam Hussein is on the ballot, you'll be voting for him. Be glad Bush is governing this nation or else...
Right wingers are complaining about Kerrey's purple heart? (http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200405041626.asp)  But they clam up when it comes to his silver star.
  February 28, 1969 â?? For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong insurgents in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 28 February 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94 and Officer in Tactical Command of a three-boat mission. As the force approached the target area on the narrow Dong Cung River, all units came under intense automatic weapons and small arms fire from an entrenched enemy force less than fifty-feet away. Unhesitatingly, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered his boat to attack as all units opened fire and beached directly in front of the enemy ambushers. The daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers. The PCF gunners captured many enemy weapons in the battle that followed. On a request from U.S. Army advisors ashore, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered PCFs 94 and 23 further up river to suppress enemy sniper fire. After proceeding approximately eight hundred yards, the boats again were taken under fire from a heavily foliated area and B-40 rocket exploded close aboard PCF-94; with utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy. Upon sweeping the area an immediate search uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed. The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. (http://www.vietnamwar.com/JohnKerrySilverStar.htm)
 
 Where's Bush's purple heart eh?
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by redsock:
  Sadly, stories like Lynch and Tillman are used far to ofter as pro-war propaganda by the powers that be.I guess I should have seen the TV movie made about it all, right?
I got the info from here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3248021.stm)
 
 and here. (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-sp.nflnotes01may01,0,6098610.story?coll=bal-sports-football)
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Bags on May 06, 2004, 05:45:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
  Be glad Bush is governing this nation or else you might have already been hung for insulting your leader like Hussein woulda done.
Actually Bush is working on this as we speak -- he and Tom Ridge and Michael Powell and the rest of the fundamentalist posse....
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 06, 2004, 06:07:00 pm
The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.
 - Sun Tzu
 
 The war in Iraq is a Win-Win for one country, Saudi Arabia.  Infidels die.  Iraqis die.  Win win.
 
 It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
 -Sun Tzu, the Art of War
 
 Then what has Bush/Disney (http://www.michaelmoore.com/) to fear?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 06, 2004, 06:09:00 pm
Let me tread very lightly while trying to make my point because I don't want anyone to misunderstand what I'm trying to say.
 
 I have some experience on this subject. My experience is in the form of having trained military aircrew in interrogation resistance techniques...basically, to not tell the bastards what they're trying to find out, other than your name, rank and serial number.
 
 I don't know why these prisoners are in captivity, and that is a huge question that needs to be answered. If they are just thugs that needed to be off the streets then the photo's show inhumane treatment, there's no question about it. If the prisoners are of military value...if they know shit that the US is trying to find out...then what you saw in the photo's is pretty much how it is in that situation....to try to humilate and degrade to the point of submission and co-operation.
 
 Please don't anyone for one minute think I'm defending, excusing or condoning what went on.
 I'm just saying that's what happens during interrogation.
 
 One technique I remember was to hose them down with cold water and leave them outside to shiver for a while...then take them to the interrogation room and have them undress thinking they were getting dry clothes, only to have a woman come in the room once they were naked to ridicule his manhood, which had obviously suffered "shrinkage"...so what you see that woman doing in the pictures is pretty much the same thing. Another was to keep them blindfolded until they are being interrogated, and while they are sat outside with the blindfold on, pour warm water on them from a teapot and make a noise like you're peeing on them, not pleasant, but effective in degrading and humiliating.  The one thing that was never done is the gay human naked pyramid thing, that seems to me that they got out of hand and the senior officer on duty must be held responsible for letting it happen....and not only that, counter-productive because they now know they are not the only prisoner. Isolation was key to breaking them down. Make them think they're all alone.
 
 I'm afraid that's just the reality of war...it's ugly and in this case completely unnecessary....the war I mean.
 
 As for the Geneva Convention...that's all very noble and all, but it's basically used as a guide book, not a rule book.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Bags on May 06, 2004, 06:37:00 pm
Mank, your explanation makes complete sense, and that was my initial thought -- the photos I've seen do not necessarily depict prima facie torture or abuse, but the ensuing uproar and apology by Bush, and criminal charges filed against some of the involved solders, led me to believe the actions were improper.  My argument has been with the defense of abuse and torture of Iraqis as appropriate quid pro quo behavior (regardless of this particular situation).
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 06, 2004, 06:58:00 pm
This treatment is done by all countries all the time. It's just in this case, the US got caught on film.....which begs the question, who let the camera in the proceedings?
 
 Again, not defending anybody....just asking from a military interrogator perspective.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: SomethingMild on May 06, 2004, 07:17:00 pm
Different perspective from the Irish Times - apologies for the length but it's a subscription site
 
 We can guess the response in the US if the heaps of naked, captured Iraqis, their legs akimbo exposing their anuses and their genitals to jeering American soldiers, had been women; and we can be equally sure of the consequence if the abusers of these female captives had been men, writes Kevin Myers.
 
 The outcry would have been deafening, and the US military would have been convulsed from top to bottom. The male commanding officer on whose watch these crimes occurred would have been sacked and sent home in irons, and the men responsible for the sexual abuse would have been court-martialled, with long terms in the brig awaiting them.
 
 But of course, the victims were men, and their visible tormenters were mostly women, and so the story has largely vanished in the US. CBS news over the weekend never even referred to the sex of the abusers, most American newspapers didn't carry the photographs of the naked young men being sexually humiliated by American women, and the New York Times effectively buried the story on an inside page. Brig Gen Janis Karpinski, the senior officer at the Abu Ghraib prison, has been suspended "pending an investigation", and six soldiers responsible for the flagrant violations of the Geneva Convention have been merely reprimanded.
 
 From which we might conclude that nothing very important happened. But something very important indeed happened. Arab males were photographed while being grossly sexually humiliated by American women. Sexual degradation of one sex by the other strikes at most people's vulnerability, in all cultures. But within Arab societies, with their universal reverence for personal modesty, cleanliness and bodily self-respect, for white Christian women to be leering and jeering at the exposed genitals and anuses of Muslim males is to violate profound social, cultural and personal taboos.
 
 The US commanders should therefore have exposed the wrong-doers to the full rigour of the martial code, thereby sending out a signal to the Arab world that the invasion of Iraq was not an exercise in imperialism in which the strong would routinely humiliate the weak. Instead, the US military chose to do otherwise. It opted to maintain the morale of its forces by treating the offenders leniently. This is a disgrace. Worse, it is short-sighted folly: other soldiers have seen the price to be paid for violating prisoners, and it is not very high.
 
 Many other issues arise from this. Women in armies can't fight - we know that. But they can apparently humiliate prisoners in the safety of a jail. Is that what the equality agenda is all about - that women soldiers get the safe billets in logistics, administration and prisoner-guarding, with the resultant opportunities for medals and promotion, while in the front-line men fight and die, and the US military maintains the fiction that it fully subscribes to the principles of sexual equality? Moreover, was it the sex of so many of the accused which prompted the inaction to date? The allegations about the soldiers under the command of Brig Gen Karpinksi first surfaced last January. Yet she was suspended only after Sixty Minutes broadcast edited versions of the pictures last week. She declares that the abuses occurred in a wing not under her control. Maybe so; but I'm sure that if the prison's commanding officer and the abusive guards had been male, and the victims female, by this time the White House would be in rubble.
 
 There are other questions of course. Was Sixty Minutes even right to show the pictures, knowing they would be circulated endlessly by Al-Jazeera, the Arab satellite channel, and subsequently exploited by al-Qaeda? Does the world have an absolute right to see such pictures and learn such truths in a time of war? Or are such freedoms an obsolete luxury when the media are on the right of the line in the new order of battle? Because whereas the pictures from Iraq would have appalled most viewers around the world, from a cave near Peshawar, there came a triumphant laugh, and the crack of a hand slapping a thigh.
 
 And what about the direct effects of such pictures? Did the producers of Sixty Minutes give any consideration to the consequences for US and other captives in the hands of Iraqi insurgents and terrorists? Or are such concerns beneath their lofty, preppy contempt as, safe and sound in the US, they heroically uphold the freedom of the media? Meanwhile back in Iraq, blindfolded, manacled hostages wonder whether the metal click they just heard is the shutter on the door, or the Kalashnikov finally being cocked.
 
 We in the media seldom discuss our duty - on occasion - to withhold certain material, yet it clearly exists. When An Garda Síochána asks for a news blackout on a hostage situation, we normally oblige. How far should we practise self-censorship out of a regard for the lives of others when we have material which we know to be authentic, as the pictures from Abu Ghraib clearly are? And what if they are suspect, as the pictures of British soldiers allegedly urinating on Iraqis seem to be? It's not that I don't think British soldiers capable of such things. We know from the North, and from previous conflicts, that they are capable of much, much worse. It is almost irrelevant: doctored or authentic, should the Western media be providing propaganda photographs to a sworn and common enemy? In other words, had I been editor of Sixty Minutes, would I have broadcast those pictures from Abu Ghraib as they were? Answer: no.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: flawd101 on May 06, 2004, 08:31:00 pm
do you all think other contries follow the geneva accords???  you are sadly mistaken.  
 
 you humanists should just shut up.  you would do the same in their situation.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: poorlulu on May 06, 2004, 08:34:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by flawd101:
  do you all think other contries follow the geneva accords???  you are sadly mistaken.  
 
 you humanists should just shut up.  you would do the same in their situation.
phew thank god you are here to impart ur knowledge and wisdom on us................
 
 you are an inspiration to dumbasses everywhere.............
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: markie on May 06, 2004, 09:45:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
  One technique I remember was to hose them down with cold water and leave them outside to shiver for a while...then take them to the interrogation room and have them undress thinking they were getting dry clothes, only to have a woman come in the room once they were naked to ridicule his manhood, which had obviously suffered "shrinkage"...so what you see that woman doing in the pictures is pretty much the same thing. Another was to keep them blindfolded until they are being interrogated, and while they are sat outside with the blindfold on, pour warm water on them from a teapot and make a noise like you're peeing on them, not pleasant, but effective in degrading and humiliating.  The one thing that was never done is the gay human naked pyramid thing, that seems to me that they got out of hand and the senior officer on duty must be held responsible for letting it happen....and not only that, counter-productive because they now know they are not the only prisoner. Isolation was key to breaking them down. Make them think they're all alone.
Did you actually practice these techniques on captives?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Guiny on May 07, 2004, 08:43:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by poorlulu:
   
Quote
Originally posted by flawd101:
  do you all think other contries follow the geneva accords???  you are sadly mistaken.  
 
 you humanists should just shut up.  you would do the same in their situation.
phew thank god you are here to impart ur knowledge and wisdom on us................
 
 you are an inspiration to dumbasses everywhere............. [/b]
Actually as sad is it sounded, he was absolutely right for once. We are very tame compared to what people do to us. Every time you see a U.S. hostage he's surrounded by masked men with machine guns pointed at their heads. I guess that's ok though the way everyone around here talks. I think most of you guys would rather see an American killed over an Iraqi. (I said most, not all !!!!!!!!!)
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Guiny on May 07, 2004, 08:45:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
 Where's Bush's purple heart eh?[/QB]
Where's yours?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: ratioci nation on May 07, 2004, 09:23:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
  Actually as sad is it sounded, he was absolutely right for once. We are very tame compared to what people do to us. Every time you see a U.S. hostage he's surrounded by masked men with machine guns pointed at their heads. I guess that's ok though the way everyone around here talks. I think most of you guys would rather see an American killed over an Iraqi. (I said most, not all !!!!!!!!!)
why shouldn't we hold Americans to a higher standard, we are so fucking great and all right, why should we settle for, well at least we are not as bad as them
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 07, 2004, 09:31:00 am
That we should hold our soldiers to a higher standard than the rest of the soldiers in the world speak to America's "We are better than everyone else" arrogance, doesn't it?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 07, 2004, 09:36:00 am
it's easy for us to say how awful the abuses are, sitting at our computers, fucking around at work...I think the vast majority of us have NO IDEA the shit that goes down in situations like this...yes, it's bad, yes, our officials need to publicly denounce these abuses...but all we little office workers, hipsters, journalists, civilians shouldn't trumpet so loudly about how awful those soldiers are or how awful the U.S. military is, because we don't have a clue...
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Sir HC on May 07, 2004, 09:40:00 am
First, many of those in the pictures were not POWs or even common criminals.  Just people picked up off the street and not charged with anything.  When they would do those sweeps and pull all 18-25 year old men off the street, well this is what was sometimes happening.
 
 Next, we went their claiming to be the moral bright light that would do no sadistic torture unlike Saddam.  There are supposedly photos of people beaten badly, and other abuses.  This is not what you do if you want the moral high ground.  Why did it happen, because from the top down there were no rules.  Rummy said we would not follow the Geneva conventions with these people but would treat them humanely.  Vague at best, and given that the guards didn't have any rules there, they just probably were following orders.
 
 The prisons were put in sexually compromising positions with women often in the pictures.  In that part of the world, modesty is very high, and having the double insult of nakedness and a woman with a dog collar around your neck is seen as something much worse than what we see it as.
 
 In the end we are losing all of are reasons to be there:
 
 WMD - Not there
 Toture and abuse - whoops, losing out now
 ???
 
 You have to assume that if 6 people were dumb enough to photograph their actions, there are probably 10x or more who didn't take pictures.  It seems that the British photos were staged, possibly for money, but the American ones definitely not.  
 
 We are losing in Iraq, we backed out of Fallujah without taking it, we are giving control of the millitary back to Baathists, we are having to get tens of billions more for the current year and for all the future, we won the battles but are losing the war.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: ratioci nation on May 07, 2004, 09:40:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
  That we should hold our soldiers to a higher standard than the rest of the soldiers in the world speak to America's "We are better than everyone else" arrogance, doesn't it?
not at all, and I don't think that expecting soldiers not to stack prisoners in a naked human pyramid would be exclusive to the US, the question is why should we lower the standards, if we are going to use military might to spread our "way of life", i think it should be expected that soldiers practice the values our leaders claim to believe in
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: markie on May 07, 2004, 09:45:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  it's easy for us to say how awful the abuses are, sitting at our computers, fucking around at work...I think the vast majority of us have NO IDEA the shit that goes down in situations like this...yes, it's bad, yes, our officials need to publicly denounce these abuses...but all we little office workers, hipsters, journalists, civilians shouldn't trumpet so loudly about how awful those soldiers are or how awful the U.S. military is, because we don't have a clue...
I actually tended to agree with you before this post, that perhaps the atrocities were not that atrocious. The captives were not being physically harmed, just humiliated. I don't condone it and I still think it is very wrong, but it could have been much worse.
 
 But the much worse argument is a very poor one, really. If Iraqi soldiers see American soldiers treat their colleagues badly, how do you think they will treat captured Americans? There are certain standards on how to treat prisoners. These have to be upheld.
 
 America is meant to be saving these people from tyranny, not just supplanting one tyrannt for another.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: ratioci nation on May 07, 2004, 09:46:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  it's easy for us to say how awful the abuses are, sitting at our computers, fucking around at work...I think the vast majority of us have NO IDEA the shit that goes down in situations like this...yes, it's bad, yes, our officials need to publicly denounce these abuses...but all we little office workers, hipsters, journalists, civilians shouldn't trumpet so loudly about how awful those soldiers are or how awful the U.S. military is, because we don't have a clue...
that is ridiculous, who here is trumpeting loudly, we are on a message board that maybe 50 people will read today, and why shouldn't people say anything, our officials would not have publicly denounced anything had journalists not said anything
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: godsshoeshine on May 07, 2004, 09:46:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  it's easy for us to say how awful the abuses are, sitting at our computers, fucking around at work...I think the vast majority of us have NO IDEA the shit that goes down in situations like this...yes, it's bad, yes, our officials need to publicly denounce these abuses...but all we little office workers, hipsters, journalists, civilians shouldn't trumpet so loudly about how awful those soldiers are or how awful the U.S. military is, because we don't have a clue...
the military answers to the president, who answers to us. of course our opinion means something. we are there to liberate these people, this is their first experience with democracy. our friends, neighbors and relatives are over there, and if the actions of a few mps are going to create more violence and endanger more american lives, yes i'm going to get mad. and what do the people that get caught get? discharged, which means they get to go home to their families while the people that do their job get to be human targets.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 07, 2004, 09:46:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by pollard:
  if we are going to use military might to spread our "way of life"
if that's the strategy, that's a real problem...you may have an interesting aside here...shouldn't we shower them with junk food, pop music, ballot boxes and shit like that to spread our way of life? I guess the factions of fundamentalists kind of make that hard...I wonder if the majority of people there even WANT a Western, Capitalist way of life or if they are more into their religion? if they don't want it, why can't we leave them alone?
 
 ISRAEL...that's why...
 
 there was a really interesting article about Zionism in the National Journal (written by a Jew) that further convinced me that it would be great if we could cut Israel loose...
 
 of course, we're in too deep now...
 
 sorry, I'm rambling
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 07, 2004, 09:50:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by pollard:
 that is ridiculous, who here is trumpeting loudly, we are on a message board that maybe 50 people will read today, and why shouldn't people say anything, our officials would not have publicly denounced anything had journalists not said anything
say what you want, but I think lots of people, especially journalists (especially those calling for Rummy's resignation, etc.)are going on too much about it...the media has the power to spin things however they want, and they are really doing a number spinning this one...
 
 maybe they're trying to take attention away from other stuff going on
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: ratioci nation on May 07, 2004, 09:55:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  say what you want, but I think lots of people, especially journalists (especially those calling for Rummy's resignation, etc.)are going on too much about it...the media has the power to spin things however they want, and they are really doing a number spinning this one...
 
 maybe they're trying to take attention away from other stuff going on
I wasn't aware journalists were calling for his resignation, that was started by a Dem Senator, but I have actually said what I wanted to say, I have to get some work done, otherwise I will bleet on all morning
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 07, 2004, 09:58:00 am
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/8604332.htm?1c (http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/8604332.htm?1c)
 
 I believe the NT Times also called for his resignation.
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by pollard:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
  say what you want, but I think lots of people, especially journalists (especially those calling for Rummy's resignation, etc.)are going on too much about it...the media has the power to spin things however they want, and they are really doing a number spinning this one...
 
 maybe they're trying to take attention away from other stuff going on
I wasn't aware journalists were calling for his resignation, that was started by a Dem Senator, but I have actually said what I wanted to say, I have to get some work done, otherwise I will bleet on all morning [/b]
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 10:06:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by mark e smith:
   
Quote
[/b]
Did you actually practice these techniques on captives? [/QB]
Yes.....our 'captives' were military aircrew from NATO member countries. Our job was to train them and prepare them for the possiblity of being taken prisoner by enemy forces. I can't go into the full details, but we did treat them very badly without physically injuring them. We did do the actions I described but under a very controlled environment, with medical personell on hand. After what they had been through for the previous 10 days, they really had no idea were they were, and the mind can play horrible games on you.
 
 The course was completely voluntary on the part of the aircrew, and believe me they were more prepared after completion.....the after course piss-up was attended by the crew only because they were not allowed to meet us. In the interrogation rooms the walls had soviet writings and the interrogation officers wore soviet uniforms. It was very real for the captives. Sometimes it would tear my heart when I could hear one sobbing like a baby while up against the wall waiting for his turn....it was tough on us too to have to do it to them, and we were only allowed to work one course per year because of the effect it had on us.
 
 Not fun, but I still feel very necessary and beneficial to the aircrew.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 07, 2004, 10:09:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by SomethingMild:
 apologies for the length...?
I'll bet you tell your girlfriend that every time you jump between the sheets and she gets a good gander at how tiny it really is.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 07, 2004, 10:14:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
   
Quote
Originally posted by mark e smith:
   
Quote
[/b]
Did you actually practice these techniques on captives? [/b]
Yes.....our 'captives' were military aircrew from NATO member countries. Our job was to train them and prepare them for the possiblity of being taken prisoner by enemy forces. I can't go into the full details, but we did treat them very badly without physically injuring them. We did do the actions I described but under a very controlled environment, with medical personell on hand. After what they had been through for the previous 10 days, they really had no idea were they were, and the mind can play horrible games on you.
 
 The course was completely voluntary on the part of the aircrew, and believe me they were more prepared after completion.....the after course piss-up was attended by the crew only because they were not allowed to meet us. In the interrogation rooms the walls had soviet writings and the interrogation officers wore soviet uniforms. It was very real for the captives. Sometimes it would tear my heart when I could hear one sobbing like a baby while up against the wall waiting for his turn....it was tough on us too to have to do it to them, and we were only allowed to work one course per year because of the effect it had on us.
 
 Not fun, but I still feel very necessary and beneficial to the aircrew. [/QB]
It sounds very much like what that Andy McNab fellow described going through as a part of his S.A.S. training...in the book
  Immediate Action. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0593037820/qid=1083939226/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7790181-0936150?v=glance&s=books)
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Bags on May 07, 2004, 10:14:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
  That we should hold our soldiers to a higher standard than the rest of the soldiers in the world speak to America's "We are better than everyone else" arrogance, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't.  We're not suggesting that we hold ourselves to a standard higher than many other nations in the world, but higher than the examples being bandied about in this discussion.  Alas, usually the countries we're FIGHTING are not of the more civilized ilk.  Shocking, I know -- maybe we will fight France or Canada one day, but it's not happening now...
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 07, 2004, 10:21:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
  maybe we will fight [..] Canada one day, but it's not happening now...
We already beat them once! Read a history book.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Bags on May 07, 2004, 10:24:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
  maybe we will fight [..] Canada one day, but it's not happening now...
We already beat them once! Read a history book. [/b]
So there's the example -- did they torture and abuse U.S. pows?  You tell us, board historian...how did our 'standards' of warfare compare?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: markie on May 07, 2004, 10:26:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
  Not fun, but I still feel very necessary and beneficial to the aircrew.
Nice post.
 
 Preparing for a worst case scenario seems like a good idea. I got the impression that you were practicing on a real P.O.W. That would have been bad.
 
 Thanks for the insight though.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: ggw on May 07, 2004, 10:28:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
 I can't go into the full details, but we did treat them very badly without physically injuring them.
 
 I could hear one sobbing like a baby while up against the wall waiting for his turn.
Wait -- was this in the military, or at the car dealership??
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 07, 2004, 10:30:00 am
Worse, they have us Bob and Doug Mackennzie, and a crapload of bad music, which has been covered in previous threads.
 
 But we're kicking their asses now on the exchange rates, and I'm going to Canada twice this year. Woohoo.
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
  maybe we will fight [..] Canada one day, but it's not happening now...
We already beat them once! Read a history book. [/b]
So there's the example -- did they torture and abuse U.S. pows?  You tell us, board historian...how did our 'standards' of warfare compare? [/b]
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 10:34:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
   
Quote
[/b]
It sounds very much like what that Andy McNab fellow described going through as a part of his S.A.S. training...in the book
  Immediate Action. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0593037820/qid=1083939226/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7790181-0936150?v=glance&s=books) [/QB]
The SAS are Brits, mankie is a Brit....coincidence?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Fico on May 07, 2004, 10:35:00 am
 
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
   . Hangin' burnt from a bridge just doesn't do it for me.
[/b][/QUOTE]
 
 It does not do it for me either, and it shouldn't "do it" for anyone who respects human life. But don't forget one of the triggers of this reaction by the Iraqi's, the deathtoll of more than 15k CIVILIANS according to estimates...
 
 and that's the crying shame, that people talk about war as if it were a strictly military A against military B engagement... had we been sharing borders in Iraq and 15k civilian americans had been killed, do you really think a similar response would've been an impossible thing?? they've dragged people on pick-ups for being gay and burned people for being black... I wouldn't be surprised if that reaction would've happened here if we were in their shoes... we went to them, to occupy, they didn't come to us, and as it has been proven they didn't force it upon them... how laughable that former "Sadaam generals" may now be once again heading the Iraqi army imposed by us..the "liberators"..
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 07, 2004, 10:36:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
  Worse, they have us Bob and Doug Mackennzie, and a crapload of bad music, which has been covered in previous threads.
 
 But we're kicking their asses now on the exchange rates, and I'm going to Canada twice this year. Woohoo.
   
Are you, by chance, going to see the wildest part of the North American Continent, the beautiful Thelon preserve? (http://www.thelon.com/sanctuary.htm)
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 07, 2004, 10:37:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
   Alas, usually the countries we're FIGHTING are not of the more civilized ilk.
hmmm...that sounds pretty arrogant...the fundamentalist muslims might think we westerners are pretty "uncivilized" what with all our free sexuality, women going to school, drinking and the like...
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 07, 2004, 10:37:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
  The SAS are Brits, mankie is a Brit....coincidence?
It's standard pilot/Sp.Forces training worldwide, as you said above.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 10:38:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
 [QB]
 But we're kicking their asses now on the exchange rates, and I'm going to Canada twice this year. Woohoo.
 
 
 
Quote

 But Britain is kicking doodlevilles arse on the exchange rate...unfortunately I'm going over there...yet again, it sucks to be me!  :mad:
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 07, 2004, 10:39:00 am
That sounds intriguing, but no, I'll only be visiting the cities of Toronto and Montreal. (Montreal next weekend).
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
  Worse, they have us Bob and Doug Mackennzie, and a crapload of bad music, which has been covered in previous threads.
 
 But we're kicking their asses now on the exchange rates, and I'm going to Canada twice this year. Woohoo.
   
Are you, by chance, going to see the wildest part of the North American Continent, the beautiful Thelon preserve? (http://www.thelon.com/sanctuary.htm) [/b]
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 10:41:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
   Alas, usually the countries we're FIGHTING are not of the more civilized ilk.
hmmm...that sounds pretty arrogant...the fundamentalist muslims might think we westerners are pretty "uncivilized" what with all our free sexuality, women going to school, drinking and the like... [/b]
How civilized are the inner-cities with the bloods, crips, MS13 and all that stuff. Look at SE DC, with those highschool kids killing each other.
 
 I'd say American is pretty uncivilized at the moment with all the murders, rapes, school shootings etc.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 07, 2004, 10:47:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
   Alas, usually the countries we're FIGHTING are not of the more civilized ilk.
hmmm...that sounds pretty arrogant...the fundamentalist muslims might think we westerners are pretty "uncivilized" what with all our free sexuality, women going to school, drinking and the like... [/b]
How civilized are the inner-cities with the bloods, crips, MS13 and all that stuff. Look at SE DC, with those highschool kids killing each other.
 
 I'd say American is pretty uncivilized at the moment with all the murders, rapes, school shootings etc. [/b]
well, my point was pretty much that "civilization" is relative
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 07, 2004, 10:51:00 am
Sucks for you.
 
 Hopefully the exchange rates will improve for Americans when we plan to go somewhere in Europe in 2005. If not, will just have to scale back on the visit.
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
 
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
 [QB]
 But we're kicking their asses now on the exchange rates, and I'm going to Canada twice this year. Woohoo.
 
 
 
Quote

 But Britain is kicking doodlevilles arse on the exchange rate...unfortunately I'm going over there...yet again, it sucks to be me!   :mad:  [/b]
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 07, 2004, 10:55:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sacktastic Bag O' Nuts:
  If not, will just have to scale back on the visit.
 
 NEVER!!!!  :p
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Bags on May 07, 2004, 10:57:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
     
Quote
Originally posted by Macktastic Bag O' Flash:
   Alas, usually the countries we're FIGHTING are not of the more civilized ilk.
hmmm...that sounds pretty arrogant...the fundamentalist muslims might think we westerners are pretty "uncivilized" what with all our free sexuality, women going to school, drinking and the like... [/b]
You're right -- I didn't mean the entire countries, I meant the war and fighting style of our opposition, and that may not necessarily be the official militiary.  I was referring to the torture and abuse directed at Americans that we should be better than....you know, all that stuff folks here keep mentioning.
 
 Ditto to Mank's reference to SE DC -- the discussion was on warfare and how wars are fought, what's appropriate or not and what standard we might hold our military to.  The brush I was painting with was not intended to cover any country entirely -- the US or others.  Hell, we treat each other like SHIT.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: godsshoeshine on May 07, 2004, 11:30:00 am
say we are caring too much about the prison "abuses". should we just ignore them? not read the papers?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 11:41:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
  say we are caring too much about the prison "abuses". should we just ignore them? not read the papers?
If John Asscrotch had his way...absolutely.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Guiny on May 07, 2004, 11:48:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
 hmmm...that sounds pretty arrogant...the fundamentalist muslims might think we westerners are pretty "uncivilized" what with all our free sexuality, women going to school, drinking and the like... [/QB]
If I remember right, one of the first things that happened after we kicked the Taliban's ass's in Afghanistan was females started going to school....Are they not a Muslim country?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Celeste on May 07, 2004, 11:57:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
 hmmm...that sounds pretty arrogant...the fundamentalist muslims might think we westerners are pretty "uncivilized" what with all our free sexuality, women going to school, drinking and the like... [/b]
If I remember right, one of the first things that happened after we kicked the Taliban's ass's in Afghanistan was females started going to school....Are they not a Muslim country? [/QB]
exactly...WE kicked their ass, the girls got to go to school...
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 12:04:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Ball Girl:
 hmmm...that sounds pretty arrogant...the fundamentalist muslims might think we westerners are pretty "uncivilized" what with all our free sexuality, women going to school, drinking and the like... [/b]
If I remember right, one of the first things that happened after we kicked the Taliban's ass's in Afghanistan was females started going to school....Are they not a Muslim country? [/b]
exactly...WE kicked their ass, the girls got to go to school... [/QB]
I'm sure I read that girls are again not allowed to go to school in Afghanistan...Mind you, don't feel bad, the Ruskies couldn't kick their arses either.
   ;)
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: thirsty moore on May 07, 2004, 12:44:00 pm
From what I remember reading, they basically said it was a waste of time to even go to Afghanistan!
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
 the Ruskies couldn't kick their arses either.
    ;)  
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 07, 2004, 03:11:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
  should we just ignore them? not read the papers?
It works for George W!
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 03:46:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
 
Quote
It works for George W! [/b]
He said "not read the papers" He didn't say "be so fucking dumb you can't read"
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Guiny on May 07, 2004, 04:05:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
 
Quote
It works for George W! [/b]
He said "not read the papers" He didn't say "be so fucking dumb you can't read" [/b]
So if the President is dumb that must make all the rest of the American people dumb morons.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Bags on May 07, 2004, 04:11:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
 So if the President is dumb that must make all the rest of the American people dumb morons.
Don't you mean the American people who voted for him?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Sir HC on May 07, 2004, 04:23:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Dupek Chopra:
 
Quote
It works for George W! [/b]
He said "not read the papers" He didn't say "be so fucking dumb you can't read" [/b]
Well he doesn't read the Presidential Daily Briefings, these Iraq reports, most everything.  What *does* he read.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer on May 07, 2004, 04:23:00 pm
There are a lot of dumb Republican voters, a lot of dumb Dem voters, and even a few of us who voted for Nader are dumb.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: on May 07, 2004, 04:26:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sir HC:
  Well he doesn't read the Presidential Daily Briefings, these Iraq reports, most everything.  What *does* he read.
<img src="http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0399208534.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg" alt=" - " />
 He was reading this on 9/11
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 04:32:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
 
Quote
So if the President is dumb that must make all the rest of the American people dumb morons. [/b]
No more dumb than the German people while Hitler was in power.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Guiny on May 07, 2004, 04:37:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Bollocks:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
 
Quote
So if the President is dumb that must make all the rest of the American people dumb morons. [/b]
No more dumb than the German people while Hitler was in power. [/b]
Yeah, I don't think they were on chat boards calling him dumb. If they were they wouldnt last very long, they'd probably end up taking acid showers.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: mankie on May 07, 2004, 04:45:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Rob_Gee_a.k.a _Guiny:
 
Quote
Yeah, I don't think they were on chat boards calling him dumb. If they were they wouldnt last very long, they'd probably end up taking acid showers. [/b]
NEWSFLASH! They didn't have the internet back then.
 
 BREAKING NEWS! The Patriot Act.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Sir HC on May 07, 2004, 04:51:00 pm
From the Post on-line chats:
 
 Dan Froomkin: From my column yesterday, which no one read because Bush apologized and it vanished off the home page:
 
 Much has been made of the fact that Bush is still using a line from his stump speech about how the torture chambers in Iraq are closed.
 
 But here's something no one seems to have noticed: He has made a change. Now he's saying whose torture chambers.
 
 Up until lately, the line generally went "Because we acted, torture chambers are closed."
 
 That was up until early Tuesday afternoon. See, for instance, his remarks in Lebanon or Maumes, Ohio.
 
 But since Tuesday night -- or by the time he got to Cincinnati -- he's been more specific. The exact words now: "Because our coalition acted, Saddam's torture chambers are closed."
 
 And he's used that precise phrasing two more times since then.
 
 Here are the three speeches:
 
 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040504-6.html (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040504-6.html)
 
 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040504-3.html (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040504-3.html)
 
 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040504-8.html (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040504-8.html)
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: flawd101 on May 09, 2004, 11:13:00 am
this is only going to get worse....right now we are drunk and having sex with a horribly ugly chick, tommarrow we will see how fucked we are.
 
 and god fucking dammit, root for the fucking home team!!!  you are in america so like america more.  technally we are better, we are sitting down typing at computers,  how many people in this world don't have the luxary?  now dont complain if you go to starbucks everyday instead of dodging bombs and bullets.
 
 its wrong what we did if you saw the pictures but look what iraqis did to santa claus and jesus in that south park episode!  fucking santa man, FUCKING SANTA, no one messes with sants balls and get away with it.  
 
 you wont like this part but just have those camera men call in an air stike at those al-sadir rallies.  were the fuck is james bond?  probaly fucking paris hilton like everyone else... if they have a kid it will be an mtv show...
 
 to recap. i started with war and ended with paris hilton fucking james bond....
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: godsshoeshine on May 09, 2004, 07:54:00 pm
how high were you when you wrote that?
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Jaguär on May 09, 2004, 11:22:00 pm
I love Flawd.
 
 Just when he starts making sense, he goes and falls off of his limb.   :D     :D     :D
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: flawd101 on May 10, 2004, 07:43:00 pm
but if i did make sense then it would be a little wierd....it makes sense to flawd....
 
 i thought i started good but i couldnt stop talkin so....and, and and i wasnt high.
 
 
 how do you know an asian person robbed your house?
 everything is still on the top shelves.
 
 hahahahahahahaha i luv that joke almost as much as i luv jew jokes....
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: RainBoots on May 10, 2004, 08:08:00 pm
I don't know if I should even be talking, considering I'm not an active politics follower, but George Bush is getting us into more than we can handle, in my opinion.
 
 I don't know if any British people are reading this, but if so, I apologize for how we must look to all of you. I was watching BBC News and they came over to the US to interview some people about what they thought of this prisoner mistreatment stuff. The citizens they ended up choosing to interview were some rednecks drunks at a bar in the middle of no where. I'm really afriad to even think about what we looked like to the rest of the world. *shudders*  :eek:
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Jaguär on May 11, 2004, 12:42:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by StarSpree:
  I don't know if any British people are reading this, but if so, I apologize for how we must look to all of you. I was watching BBC News and they came over to the US to interview some people about what they thought of this prisoner mistreatment stuff. The citizens they ended up choosing to interview were some rednecks drunks at a bar in the middle of no where. I'm really afriad to even think about what we looked like to the rest of the world. *shudders*         :eek:        
Didn't see it and am not really commenting on this issue specifically but one thing that I learned in art school, and learned well, is that a good narrarator (journalist, artist, photographer, etc...) can tell any story they want regardless of the truth. Same tactics are used by all countries to portray whatever is the most expediant or effective for their agenda, be it political or monetary. Can't help but wonder if they went looking for specific responses by being selective of a group they expected certain reactions and images from. I see that kind of stuff all of the time. Even locally on small town issues. Do some research and you'll find that the Nazis and the Soviets taught us well. By 'us', I mean the entire world. Hey, they learned much of it from their predicisors, some of them being the very early Muslims. Research the origin and relationships of the words hashish and assassin. REMINDER: I'm only meaning to discuss my mistrust of the media worldwide, including the US and the UK; not the prison abuse issue. I'm staying out of that one for now. Honestly, I haven't even formulated my own opinion yet on the matter as I feel that I don't know enough of what really went down and suspect that there may be a lot more to this story than any of us know. And don't assume that I am in any way defending them either. I'm not. There is way too much psychological crap going around now with the entire world to jump to quick conclusions when a lot of us are being manipulated from all sides.
 
 Mankie, thinking about what you wrote, in the Muslim culture, photographs of a person or pictures of them were forbidden. Yes, I know it's done now but they are one of those cultures that believe that the image captures a part of the soul. Or something like that. I can't help but wonder if that may have had something to do with photographing them. Either way, it does seem that something got terribly out of hand. I say 'seem' only because, for all we know, leaking them out may be part of someone's ploy. It's all fucked up no matter how you look at it. I fucking HATE this war shit!!!
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: Sir HC on May 11, 2004, 09:21:00 am
Very true Jag.  Look at the post 9/11 pictures of people in Arab countries pandering to the cameras cheering on about the towers toppling.  All you need is one person with whatever view you want, show them and make it be the view for everyone.
Title: Re: "abuses" of Iraqi POW's
Post by: flawd101 on May 11, 2004, 04:49:00 pm
dont know if it is true but the pictures were going around the base and someone thought it was wrong and sent them to family not knowing what to do.  that must have been nice letter for the kids to see...
 
 they deserve to get in trouble, they took pictures, they were asking for it.
 #1 rule of doing something bad is no pics.