Author Topic: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats  (Read 3337 times)

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Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« on: January 27, 2005, 02:59:00 pm »
Why is it that when I press shuffle, despite having 10K+ songs loaded, it always seems to play the same three songs by Steely Dan?
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 Has anyone else, but me, read the interesting article in this weeks NEWSWEAK about the song-repeating problems encountered with the shuffle feature of an Ipod?  Does anyone out there experience this phenomenon???

ggw

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Re: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2005, 03:04:00 pm »
Tunes, a Hard Drive and (Just Maybe) a Brain
 By RACHEL DODES
 
 WHILE Bob Angus was presiding over a summer dinner party at his Upper West Side apartment in Manhattan, his Apple iPod decided to reveal its softer side.
 
 Mr. Angus, a second-year graduate student at Columbia Business School, had selected the Shuffle Songs mode on his iPod, which was connected by an adapter cable to his stereo receiver. By doing this, he relinquished control of his 1,300-song music library - and, as he would soon find out, of his party.
 
 The Guns N' Roses song "Paradise City" blared from his speakers. It was followed by the melodic piano solo at the beginning of Elton John's "Your Song." Mr. Angus's 10 guests burst into laughter.
 
 "Everyone was rocking out," Mr. Angus said. "Then Elton comes on and kills it - it was like strike No. 1 against my manhood."
 
 Such are the perils of using Shuffle, a genre-defying option that has transformed the way people listen to their music in a digital age. The problem is, now that people are rigging up their iPods to stereos at home and in their cars, they may have to think twice about what they have casually added to their music library.
 
 Shuffle commands have been around since the dawn of the CD player. But the sheer quantity of music on an MP3 player like the iPod - and in its desktop application, iTunes - has enabled the function to take on an entirely new sense of scale and scope. It also heightens the risk that a long-forgotten favorite song will pop up, for better or for worse, in mixed company.
 
 There is an unintended consequence of the allure of Shuffle: it is causing iPod users to question whether their devices "prefer" certain types of music.
 
 Revere Greist, a doctoral student and amateur bicycle racer in Los Angeles, has concluded that his iPod's Shuffle command favors the rapper 50 Cent - and perhaps more important, that it knows exactly the right time to play 50 Cent's biggest hit, "In Da Club." He finds the dramatic beat, coupled with the lyrics "Go Shorty, it's your birthday," inspirational.
 
 Mr. Greist rides his bike 15 hours a week, often more than three hours at a time. To get him through the tedium of this workout, he created a 40-song mix called "What It Takes," a name derived from a quotation on a documentary film about Lance Armstrong's training for the 2000 Tour de France. (After Armstrong defies his team manager's orders and races up a snowy mountain, his team manager says into the camera, "Now, that's what it takes to win the Tour de France.")
 
 The iPod "knows somehow when I am reaching the end of my reserves, when my motivation is flagging," Mr. Greist insisted. "It hits me up with 'In Da Club,' and then all of a sudden I am in da club."
 
 For Mr. Angus, though, Shuffle can be a workout killer. He said that while working out at the gym, his portable music player invariably drifts toward the Billboard Top 40.
 
 "It really likes Ruben Studdard," the winner of "American Idol's" second season, Mr. Angus said. This, despite the fact that he only has one song of Mr. Studdard's - the soulful ballad "Sorry 2004" - stored on his 20-gigabyte player. "There's nothing worse than when you are having an intense workout and Ruben comes on," he said, "but it seems to always happen to me."
 
 Lucy Shaw, a social worker in New York, has stopped using Shuffle altogether. "It was totally not reading my moods," she said. It would play upbeat music when she was feeling low, and dark, somber selections when she was feeling upbeat. Furthermore, she said, her device had a penchant for picking songs containing four minutes of dead air followed by a bonus track - like Brian Ferry's "More Than This" (the song to which Bill Murray sings karaoke in "Lost in Translation," a bonus track on the film's soundtrack album).
 
 These people are not the only ones who think that iPods have minds of their own. IPod enthusiasts are throwing all manner of Shuffle conspiracy theories around on Internet message boards, ranging from the somewhat plausible to the absurd.
 
 At the macslash.org discussion site, one posting said: "I'm pretty sure iTunes is not sorting my songs randomly. It seems to learn. I'd say it's using some Bayesian logic and/or simple neural networks to vary probabilities of songs to be selected and adjust parameters of selection by the users history of song skipping."
 
 When confronted with such elaborate theories, Stan Ng, Apple Computer's director of iPod product marketing, laughed. "The funny thing about it is that it really is random," he said. "When you turn on Shuffle Songs, it creates a randomized list of all the music on your iPod without repeating a song."
 
 That is to say, if you listened on Shuffle to all 1,000 songs stored on an iPod Mini, you would theoretically never hear the same song twice, much the way you would never get two queens of hearts if you pulled cards from a single deck one by one. (Conversely, if you select Random on the iTunes Smart Playlist function, you might hear the same song twice in a row, though it is unlikely.)
 
 The popularity of the listening mode led Apple's product design team to add Shuffle to the main menu on the fourth-generation iPod, which was introduced on July 19. Now, instead of having to scroll down into Settings to turn Shuffle on or off, users have it at their fingertips.
 
 Mr. Ng said that the technology behind the Shuffle function has remained the same since the first-generation iPod. He declined to reveal the algorithm used to generate randomness on Shuffle, but said the only reason that an iPod might seem to know a listener's preferences is that the listener, after all, chose the music in the first place.
 
 "I have friends who say, 'My iPod is, like, totally into 80's music,' " Mr. Ng said. "And I will say to them, 'Well, how much 80's music do you have on your iPod?' " The answer, he said, is usually an amount sufficient to ensure a steady stream of Flock of Seagulls and Duran Duran.
 
 This logical explanation doesn't always jibe with users' experiences. Dan Cedarholm, a Web designer in Salem, Mass., insists that his iPod has a predilection for the indie punk band Fugazi. Even though he only has two of the band's albums stored on his "vintage" 5-gigabyte device, the band seems to dominate his iPod to a degree wildly disproportionate to the amount of space it occupies on his player's memory, he said.
 
 "It is truly bizarre," said Mr. Cedarholm, who no longer likes Fugazi. "Before, it was this hidden gem, and when I heard them I would be like, 'Oh yeah. Fugazi. Cool.' "
 
 Now he hits the Fast Forward button.
 
 Mr. Cedarholm has contemplated removing all Fugazi songs from his iPod, but he said he fears that "the baton will get passed" to some other band, like his beloved Pixies, "and God help me if I wind up hating them too."
 
 According to Mr. Ng, there is no way that an iPod can be a "fan" of a particular artist or band. Rather, he asserted, the anthropomorphizing of the iPod is "just another example of how much people love them."
 
 Other MP3 players, like those from iRiver and Rio, also have Shuffle functions. But because of its popularity and larger market share, the iPod is the overwhelming focus of online tales and conjecture on the subject.
 
 Dan Torres, vice president for product marketing at Rio, whose iPod competitor is called the Rio Karma, said the topic of the randomness of Shuffle comes up often in Rio's discussion forums as well. "I think that one of the issues is that it is easy for users to perceive that if two songs come up right next to each other from the same artist that the Shuffle feature is not working," he said. "But statistically, this will just happen from time to time."
 
 There are ways to circumvent Shuffle - on an iPod at least - by using iTunes, most notably by creating a Smart Playlist. Indeed, one could argue that the most innovative thing about the iPod is not the number of songs that can be stored on it, but the intelligent ways in which the iTunes software can manage users' music. After all, having 10,000 songs on a tiny device is relatively useless unless you can play exactly what you want, when you want it.
 
 Creating Smart Playlists enables users to slice and dice their music libraries using pretty much any criteria they want. One can produce, for example, an entire list of songs that share nothing other than that they occupy the seventh track on their respective albums. The Date Added subcategory can be used as the selection criteria to generate a mix of songs that have been added to the iPod over the course of, say, the last two weeks.
 
 The Smart Playlists function is relatively easy to use - there is even a Web site, www.smartplaylists.com, devoted to creating them - but it is more difficult than simply clicking on Shuffle, and it seems to be popular among more technically inclined iPod owners. (Most people interviewed for this article had never heard of Smart Playlists, let alone used them.)
 
 An added benefit of Smart Playlists is that they can reduce the chances of having your iPod ruin an intimate moment.
 
 Bob Angus, the Columbia Business School student, became enthusiastic at the mention of the Smart Playlist function and wanted to hear more.
 
 Once when he and his girlfriend were together in his bedroom, he said, his iPod started blasting the Beastie Boys' "No Sleep Till Brooklyn."
 
 "I jumped out of bed as fast as I could," he recalled. "But it had already wrecked the mood." In the future, he said, he will try not to let his iPod run wild.

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Re: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2005, 03:40:00 pm »
That link didn't work, BTW.  Have you seen the Newsweak article?

ggw

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Re: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2005, 03:42:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Bud Erdbuns:
  That link didn't work, BTW.  Have you seen the Newsweak article?
No.
 
 Are planning on becoming a DJ Dupek?

ggw

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Re: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2005, 03:48:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Bud Erdbuns:
  That link didn't work, BTW.  Have you seen the Newsweak article?
Link fixed.
 
 This Newsweak article?
 
 Does Your iPod Play Favorites?
 My first iPod seemed to have a fondness for Steely Dan, while other artists were sent into exile.
 
 By Steven Levy
 Newsweek
 
 
 Jan. 31 issue - Last spring it dawned on Apple CEO Steve Jobs that the heart of his hit iPod digital music player was the "shuffle." This feature allows users to mix up their entire song collectionsâ??thousands of tunesâ??and play them back in a jumbled order, like a private radio station. Jobs not only moved the popular shuffle option to an exalted place on the top menu of the iPod, he also used the idea as the design principle of the new low-cost iPod Shuffle. Its ad slogan celebrates the serendipity music lovers embrace when their songs are reordered by chanceâ??"Life is random."
 
 But just about everyone who has an iPod has wondered how random the iPod shuffle function really is. From the day I loaded up my first Pod, it was as if the little devil liked to play favorites. It had a particular fondness for Steely Dan, whose songs always seemed to pop up two or three times in the first hour of play. Other songs seemed to be exiled to a forgotten corner of the disk drive. Months after I bought "Wild Thing" from the iTunes store, I'm still waiting for my iPod to cue it up.
 
 More than a year ago, I outlined these concerns to Jobs; he dialed up an engineer who insisted that shuffle played no favorites. Since then, however, millions of new Podders have started shuffling, and the question has been discussed in newspapers, blogs and countless conversations. It's taking on Oliver Stone-like conspiracy buzz.
 
 Apple execs profess amusement. "It's part of the magic of shuffle," says Greg Joswiak, the VP for iPod products. Still, I asked him last week to double-check with the engineers. They flatly assured him that "Random is random," and the algorithm that does the shuffling has been tested and reverified.
 
 More specifically, when an iPod does a shuffle, it reorders the songs much the way a Vegas dealer shuffles a deck of cards, then plays them back in the new order. So if you keep listening for the week or so it takes to complete the list, you will hear everything, just once. But people generally listen only to the first few dozen songs. In theory, that sample should be evenly distributed among all the artists and albums in their collections. So why do you typically get three Wilco songs in an hour while Aretha Franklin waits in the wings forever?
 
 The question will be even more important to owners of the new tiny iPod Shuffles. These use a new feature called autofill to load the one-ounce players with a supposedly random selection of 120 or so songs from much larger collections. The first few times I tried this, I found some disturbing clusters in the songs chosen. More than once the "random" playlist included three tracks from the same album! Since there are more than 3,000 tunes in my library, this seemed to defy the odds.
 
 Or did it? I explained this phenomenon to Temple University prof John Allen Paulos, an expert in applying mathematical theory to everyday life. His conclusion: it's entirely possible that nothing at all is amiss with the shuffle function. It's quite common for random processes (like coin tosses) to get unlikely results here and there, like runs of six heads in a row. Over a very long time, it evens out, but it's hard for us to envision that. "We often interpret and impose patterns on random processes," he says, adding that this might be expected in the case of music, which evokes strong emotions. Paul Kocher, president of Cryptography Research, puts it another way: "Our brains aren't wired to understand randomness."
 
 Life may indeed be random, and the iPod probably is, too. But we humans will always provide our own narratives and patterns to bring chaos under control. The fault, if there is any, lies not in shuffle but in ourselves.
 
 On the other hand, I'm still waiting for "Wild Thing."
 
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6854309/site/newsweek/

HoyaSaxa03

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Re: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2005, 03:56:00 pm »
this is obviously a problem for people who don't know how to best use their ipod ...
 
 my method: rate every song in my itunes library on a 1-5 scale (it's an ongoing battle) and only put 4+ songs on my ipod (about 1800 songs) ... make sure that all the songs are well tagged, then make smart playlists ... rarely would i ever just shuffle my entire ipod, but i'd shuffle a playlist of 700 or so "indie" songs (encompassing many genres) or 150 or so alt-country songs, etc ...
(o|o)

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Re: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2005, 11:58:00 pm »
Thanks for the detective work ggw.  That's the article.
 
 I especially liked the part about the problem is not in the random generating algorhythm...it's a problem in the way human brains are wired.

bearman🐻

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Re: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2005, 01:55:00 am »
My iPod definitely loves my Sugar live disc from the Besides CD. And for some reason it goes through phases. It loved Aphex Twin and the Beastie Boys for a while, but for some reason lately it is obsessed with the song "Accept Yourself" by the Smiths. Maybe it's trying to tell me something...

vansmack

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Re: Going insane with the Ipod random shuffle repeats
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2005, 01:07:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Bud Erdbuns:
  I especially liked the part about the problem is not in the random generating algorhythm...it's a problem in the way human brains are wired.
Yes, the iPod is a computer and should be smart enough to know the difference between when I am working out and when I am making out.  Duh.  Stupid shuffle.
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