Author Topic: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong  (Read 18711 times)

hitman

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #90 on: November 08, 2004, 06:45:00 pm »
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Originally posted by sonickteam2:
  i agree, Kerry was too "bush sucks" and not enough "i'm the one"
 
  a negative approach doesn't get you very far most of the time.
but how much more negative can you get than Cheney saying "if Kerry is elected, then we may revert back to a pre 9/11 mindset" inferring that the big one was coming...

hitman

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #91 on: November 08, 2004, 06:47:00 pm »
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Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
   
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Originally posted by Barcelona:
  Not that this is relevant since we are talking about the US, but come to Europe and ask about moral values and religion in an exit poll and most people will tell you that we don't give a shit about these terms.
that's because europe is full of god-less, heathen socialists!
 
 plus, with a parliamentary system, there is already a party that is geared toward what is important to you, and is provided with representation in that representative body.
 
 but really, god has always stood side-by-side with "america."  it's on the currency, it's in the declarations of our independence and founding documents. . .it's in every invocation starting the legislative day. . .and it's in every inaugural oath (except the one taken by franklin pierce).  the role of god within america is really unique in the world, and one that a person really has to be here to study and understand.  simply standing on the outside looking in and saying that it's a bunch of bunk does not help in an understanding of america.  
 
 oh, and as the european historian jacques barzun said: "Whoever wants to know the heart and mind of America had better learn baseball." [/b]
what ever happened to the seperation of church and state?  the founding fathers believed in that one too.

ggw

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2004, 11:20:00 pm »
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Originally posted by vansmack:
 I would like to know who they were referring to.
Brokaw wasn't specific.  This was in the wee hours of Wednesday morning when it started to look as though Ohio was lost.  Brokaw's intro was about what it would mean for the party if Democrats lost.  Mitchell stated the party line -- that Kerry had a better plan for the economy and foreign policy but that people must have believed that "moral values" trumped those issues.
 
 At this point, Brokaw stated that he had heard from religious voters that they felt that "the Democrats" were hostile toward them and their beliefs.  Unfortunately, he was no more specific than "the Democrats".
 
 I think Michael Moore, MoveOn and the other non-affiliated 527s made themselves the face and voice of the Dems in this election -- at least in the popular view.  Perhaps they don't speak for the Party, but the Party did not make much of an effort to distance itself from those rabidly anti-Bush forces.

ggw

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2004, 11:25:00 pm »
The Values-Vote Myth
 By DAVID BROOKS
 
 Every election year, we in the commentariat come up with a story line to explain the result, and the story line has to have two features. First, it has to be completely wrong. Second, it has to reassure liberals that they are morally superior to the people who just defeated them.
 
 In past years, the story line has involved Angry White Males, or Willie Horton-bashing racists. This year, the official story is that throngs of homophobic, Red America values-voters surged to the polls to put George Bush over the top.
 
 This theory certainly flatters liberals, and it is certainly wrong.
 
 Here are the facts. As Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center points out, there was no disproportionate surge in the evangelical vote this year. Evangelicals made up the same share of the electorate this year as they did in 2000. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who are pro-life. Sixteen percent of voters said abortions should be illegal in all circumstances. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who say they pray daily.
 
 It's true that Bush did get a few more evangelicals to vote Republican, but Kohut, whose final poll nailed the election result dead-on, reminds us that public opinion on gay issues over all has been moving leftward over the years. Majorities oppose gay marriage, but in the exit polls Tuesday, 25 percent of the voters supported gay marriage and 35 percent of voters supported civil unions. There is a big middle on gay rights issues, as there is on most social issues.
 
 Much of the misinterpretation of this election derives from a poorly worded question in the exit polls. When asked about the issue that most influenced their vote, voters were given the option of saying "moral values." But that phrase can mean anything - or nothing. Who doesn't vote on moral values? If you ask an inept question, you get a misleading result.
 
 The reality is that this was a broad victory for the president. Bush did better this year than he did in 2000 in 45 out of the 50 states. He did better in New York, Connecticut and, amazingly, Massachusetts. That's hardly the Bible Belt. Bush, on the other hand, did not gain significantly in the 11 states with gay marriage referendums.
 
 He won because 53 percent of voters approved of his performance as president. Fifty-eight percent of them trust Bush to fight terrorism. They had roughly equal confidence in Bush and Kerry to handle the economy. Most approved of the decision to go to war in Iraq. Most see it as part of the war on terror.
 
 The fact is that if you think we are safer now, you probably voted for Bush. If you think we are less safe, you probably voted for Kerry. That's policy, not fundamentalism. The upsurge in voters was an upsurge of people with conservative policy views, whether they are religious or not.
 
 The red and blue maps that have been popping up in the papers again this week are certainly striking, but they conceal as much as they reveal. I've spent the past four years traveling to 36 states and writing millions of words trying to understand this values divide, and I can tell you there is no one explanation. It's ridiculous to say, as some liberals have this week, that we are perpetually refighting the Scopes trial, with the metro forces of enlightenment and reason arrayed against the retro forces of dogma and reaction.
 
 In the first place, there is an immense diversity of opinion within regions, towns and families. Second, the values divide is a complex layering of conflicting views about faith, leadership, individualism, American exceptionalism, suburbia, Wal-Mart, decorum, economic opportunity, natural law, manliness, bourgeois virtues and a zillion other issues.
 
 But the same insularity that caused many liberals to lose touch with the rest of the country now causes them to simplify, misunderstand and condescend to the people who voted for Bush. If you want to understand why Democrats keep losing elections, just listen to some coastal and university town liberals talk about how conformist and intolerant people in Red America are. It makes you wonder: why is it that people who are completely closed-minded talk endlessly about how open-minded they are?
 
 What we are seeing is a diverse but stable Republican coalition gradually eclipsing a diverse and stable Democratic coalition. Social issues are important, but they don't come close to telling the whole story. Some of the liberal reaction reminds me of a phrase I came across recently: The rage of the drowning man.
 
  http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/06/opinion/06brooks.html

Jaguär

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2004, 01:37:00 am »
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Originally posted by Bags:
  See, in the end, both parties are doing the exact same damn thing.
You better watch it Bags, you're starting to sound like me.   :p

Venerable Bede

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2004, 11:14:00 am »
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Originally posted by hitman:
  what ever happened to the seperation of church and state?  the founding fathers believed in that one too.
i've already had this discussion with grotty.  i don't feel like finding the link. . .probably on the please vote thread.  
 
 basically, the constitution says nothing about separation of church and state, only that the govt. shall not hinder the free practice of religion.  the "separation of church and state" statement was devised by jefferson many years after he left office.  
 
 the declaration of independence itself contains many references to god (albeit couched as "creator"). . .the founding fathers feared the federal government mandating a certain type of religion (ala the anglican church and england).  they would have had no problem, and in fact, had no problem with referring to God (with a capital G) in official documents and ceremonies.  the oath of office contains references to God, when you are sworn into any federal office, it's always before God.  why are people so afraid of God?
OU812

Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2004, 12:28:00 pm »
Because here's this guy, God, who created himself perfect, and then created us in his image, for the purpose of worshipping him. And then he gets all down on our asses, because we're not as perfect as him. What a fucking egotist.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
   why are people so afraid of God?

kosmo vinyl

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2004, 12:29:00 pm »
i don't think people are "afraid" of god... it's more what happens when religion and government combine forces to impose the will of god. i.e. the spanish inquistion, the crusades, henry 8th chopping off heads and starting his own church, general oppression of non or the wrong believers, etc.  remember the pilgrims first came to country to escape religious persecution and was one of the reasons for the inclusion of right to practice as one sees fit.  i think jefferson was attempting to create a firewall to keep religiously zealtry to a dull roar...
T.Rex

Venerable Bede

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2004, 12:51:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  i don't think people are "afraid" of god... it's more what happens when religion and government combine forces to impose the will of god. i.e. the spanish inquistion, the crusades, henry 8th chopping off heads and starting his own church, general oppression of non or the wrong believers, etc.  remember the pilgrims first came to country to escape religious persecution and was one of the reasons for the inclusion of right to practice as one sees fit.  i think jefferson was
ahhh the puritans.  they left england after being persecuted, but banished those who thought differently than them.  
 
 i'll give you the spanish inquisition and the first few crusades, but round the 3rd crusade, it was simply about money, not religion.  for example, the 4th crusade was hijacked by the doge of venice to simply plunder constantinople's riches and fill venice's coffers.  henry the 8th. . .he wanted a divorce, pope said no, henry said, bollocks with you, left the church, and started his own, and was forced to behead thomas more.
 
 i guess when i said why are people afraid of god, it was in a rhetorical sense.  but i was more going after these extreme cases . . .why shouldn't there be a nativity scene out front of a city hall around christmas-time?  why can't we say the pledge of allegiance with "under god"?  are these really examples so egregious that they must be taken to court?  as i pointed out earlier. . .our money says "under god," the start of each legislative day (long before today's religious right take over) began with a prayer, the swearing in of a witness concludes "so help me god."  if "under god" is so terrible in the pledge of allegiance, why aren't people going after the same statement that's found on every piece of money in this country?
 
 here's an interesting article on jefferson's letter (and i'll correct myself, it was written by jefferson whilst in office, i apologize for that error): http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/Chronicles/May2003/0503Dreisbach.html
 
 the letter can be found here:  http://fact.trib.com/1st.jeffers.2.html
OU812

Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2004, 01:06:00 pm »
Because Jesus never asked us to celebrate his birthday. He only asked us to accept him as our personal saviour. The Catholic church co-opted some pagan holidays, and turned it into Xmas, and capitalist pigs have built is up from there. Jesus never said anything about the fact that we should celebrate Xmas, so if we live our lives as he instructed, why the need to give him a birthday party he didn't ask for?
 
 ...or at least that's what I would think if I were religious.
 
 ...as it is, it's just a nice day to have off from work and spend with family.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
 
Quote
.why shouldn't there be a nativity scene out front of a city hall around christmas-time?  
 
  [/b]

kosmo vinyl

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2004, 01:07:00 pm »
not that i completely agree with the removal of the naviety scenes from government property, but i believe the point is to nip the displaying of religious icons in the bud before there is cruifix on the grounds at easter, or even all year round, the displaying of the ten commandment, etc  give people an inch and they go a mile.
 
 pray in the senate/house is fine because its not imposed and people's faith are important to them. plus politicians have to pander to the faith based voters.  the reciting of pledge of allendgence is imposed, and the children who opt out can be scourned.
T.Rex

vansmack

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2004, 01:23:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
  why are people so afraid of God?
Which God?  Not everybody in this country believes in the same god.
27>34

Guiny

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2004, 01:28:00 pm »
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Originally posted by vansmack:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
  why are people so afraid of God?
Which God?  Not everybody in this country believes in the same god. [/b]
All God's are created equally.....Or something like that.

Venerable Bede

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Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2004, 01:31:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
  Because Jesus never asked us to celebrate his birthday. He only asked us to accept him as our personal saviour. The Catholic church co-opted some pagan holidays, and turned it into Xmas, and capitalist pigs have built is up from there. Jesus never said anything about the fact that we should celebrate Xmas, so if we live our lives as he instructed, why the need to give him a birthday party he didn't ask for?
 
 ...or at least that's what I would think if I were religious.
 
 ...as it is, it's just a nice day to have off from work and spend with family.
 
yeah, those early christian/catholics were some politicians back then.  aside from the easter season, i think all other christian holidays were originally pagan festivals, and co-opted to make the christian religion acceptable to the pagans of the area.
 
 heck, religious scholars believe that jesus was born in the summer, not the winter. . .early christian's decided to put it in the winter cause it coincided with winter solstice festivals.
OU812

Re: Sometimes It's Nice To Be Wrong
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2004, 01:33:00 pm »
All gods are pretty much the same god. They have just been given different names to create a divisive diversion to keep people separated from each other and not be able to deal with the real problems of the world. Like financial inequity.
 
 Or something like that.
 
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by vansmack:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Venerable Bede:
  why are people so afraid of God?
Which God?  Not everybody in this country believes in the same god. [/b]