Paris attacks and Eagles of Death Metal

[hutch]

dude..this was not 9-11...

for france, and by extension a lot of europe, this was exactly like 9/11: a mass-casualty terrorism act hits home.  do you remember that shattered sense of safety you had when the twin towers came down?  a lot of frenchies now feel the same way.  sure, we all know that terrorism exists... but until you feel that you are truly at risk, it's theoretical.  november 13 made it real for them.

no way... this is a silly thing to argue about so I will leave it with that.. no way was this comparable to 9-11...

[sweetcell]

i have friends in paris.  this is their 9/11.  end of story.

[hutch]

i have friends in paris.  this is their 9/11.  end of story.

so you want to keep going eh?

oh, and you think you're the only with friends in paris?

the difference of opinion comes down to what you define "9-11" as being..

I don't see how you can compare the two..

9-11 involved Saudis flying, hijacking and blowing up mulitple planes, bringing down the twin towers, and crashing a plane into a pentagon..killing thousands.. injuring thousands more

how the fuck is what happened in Paris comparable to that??

one has to think you have forgotten what happened on 9-11 to say that what happened in Paris is comparable to it..

having said that, I do not deny that Parisians may be feeling some of the same things Americans felt in the aftermath of 9-11... if that is what you mean by saying its "their 9-11" then I guess you are right. happy?

[Space Freely]

In terms of overall physical and property damage, sure no comparison.

In terms of the psychological, very similar.

So you're both right.

[hutch]

I am often astounded by people who seem to think terrorism started with Al Qaeda or Daesh..

Does nobody remember the Red Brigade or the IRA??? There were plenty of terrorist attacks all over Europe in the 1970s...

Moreover, the psychological impact I should think would be different depending on the scale of the attack.. or is a terrorist attack that kills one person expected to carry the same psychological impact as one that kills, god forbid, 10,000???

I think people are forgetting to think things through here...

Furthermore, its not as if we haven't had plenty of terrorist attacks in places like India or Kenya or you name it between 9-11 and the Paris attacks... Spain experienced a pretty significant attack and yet nobody would compare it to 9-11... I guess Indians and Kenyans don't matter though..

Luckily I have to leave this riveting conversation

[Julian, White Poet WARLORD]

Moreover, the psychological impact I should think would be different depending on the scale of the attack.. or is a terrorist attack that kills one person expected to carry the same psychological impact as one that kills, god forbid, 10,000???

If you're related to that one person, then yes, for you it does. Obviously the Paris attack was not, on pure numbers, on the scope of 9/11. But specific to the mood of members of EODM, who literally saw it live in front of them, it's a far more emotionally jarring experience.

[Yada]

Moreover, the psychological impact I should think would be different depending on the scale of the attack.. or is a terrorist attack that kills one person expected to carry the same psychological impact as one that kills, god forbid, 10,000???

If you're related to that one person, then yes, for you it does. Obviously the Paris attack was not, on pure numbers, on the scope of 9/11. But specific to the mood of members of EODM, who literally saw it live in front of them, it's a far more emotionally jarring experience.

http://forum.930.com/index.php?topic=24205.msg419100#msg419100

[vansmack]

I am often astounded by people who seem to think terrorism started with Al Qaeda or Daesh..

Does nobody remember the Red Brigade or the IRA??? There were plenty of terrorist attacks all over Europe in the 1970s...

I believe you meant to start your reference with Maximilien and his band of Jacobin, but I could be mistaken.

[hutch]

I am often astounded by people who seem to think terrorism started with Al Qaeda or Daesh..

Does nobody remember the Red Brigade or the IRA??? There were plenty of terrorist attacks all over Europe in the 1970s...

I believe you meant to start your reference with Maximilien and his band of Jacobin, but I could be mistaken.

we're talking about modern day terrorism...the PLO was modern day terrorism...do people not remember the attacks on the Olympic Village in Germany?.. moreover, if the French attitude is that the Charlie Hebdo attacks weren't a terrorist attack or not targeted against "us" then I think that's rather shameful actually...kind of embarrassing much like John Kerry's unfortunate statement...

there is this attitude represented by conventional "wisdom" that "this changes everything".. well it DOES NOT... 9-11 did not change everything.. Pearl Harbor did not change everything and the Paris attacks most certainly did not change everything...  doesn't mean they are not important events.... they are things that happen.. you get back up, try to figure out how to prevent them and go on... when you let them make you feel that they "change everything" you are precisely playing into their hands.. those of the terrorists, and though I know this is very controversial and is just my own personal opinion, those of the military industrial complex (the modern day military industrial complex which includes a lot of non military and non-industrial enterprises) which cannot wait to get into the next military conflict (you better believe they are rubbing their hands together a la Mr. Burns right now)....

[vansmack]

I am often astounded by people who seem to think terrorism is a modern day phenomenon.

[hutch]

I am often astounded by people who seem to think terrorism is a modern day phenomenon.

yes I share that (though I know you're trying hard to be clever)... terrorism helped create the State of Israel.. You  read about the Maccabees being terrorists for pete's sake.

so what do we have in the end? That terrorism has been a part of civilization for millennia...  so lets not kid ourselves that one attack changes everything.

[vansmack]

The Stories of the Victims of the San Bernardino Shootings

[Space Freely]

I am often astounded by people who seem to think terrorism is a modern day phenomenon.

You'd have to be pretty blind to think that terrorism is a modern day phenomenon.

Then again, you'd have to be pretty stupid to think that the actions of the PLO, Israel, Red Brigade, IRA, etc. would have the same resonance with everyday Americans as 9/11 did. For most Americans, 9/11 DID change everything.

As far as 11/13 changing everything for Parisians and by extension continental Europeans, when was the last continental European attack by the Red Brigade or IRA? Many Europeans are probably simply too young to remember any kind of terrorist threats.

And this threat is a different kind of terrorist threat. It's arguably dictated by religious texts, rather than merely simple political motivations. That kind of shit is just more scary to some people. Not Hutch, of course.

[hutch]

I am often astounded by people who seem to think terrorism is a modern day phenomenon.

You'd have to be pretty blind to think that terrorism is a modern day phenomenon.

Then again, you'd have to be pretty stupid to think that the actions of the PLO, Israel, Red Brigade, IRA, etc. would have the same resonance with everyday Americans as 9/11 did. For most Americans, 9/11 DID change everything.

As far as 11/13 changing everything for Parisians and by extension continental Europeans, when was the last continental European attack by the Red Brigade or IRA? Many Europeans are probably simply too young to remember any kind of terrorist threats.

And this threat is a different kind of terrorist threat. It's arguably dictated by religious texts, rather than merely simple political motivations. That kind of shit is just more scary to some people. Not Hutch, of course.

and that is part of the reason 9-11 was different (and the scale which was/is unprecedented)..because in the US there wasn't a history of international terrorism.. not really.. there had been the previous attack on the World Trade Center but that was almost not talked about...just didn't have any impact.. I was obviously not saying that the actions of the PLO had had the same resonance here.. but in Europe?

9-11 did not change everything.. in some ways it helped keep everything the same... another excuse to find enemies (Iraq?) and fight bogus wars...etc.. another excuse to expand violations of people's civil rights.. BTW where is the outrage for the GITMO detainee detained for 13 years due to mistaken identity?

People like to think that events "change everything" but they don't... because human beings remain the same...the people who run our country are obsessed with fighting wars..listen to the Republicans in the debate; they'd have us fighting 4 wars at the same time if they could... when you go to the Museum of American History there is an exhibit on wars and its striking how few years we have actually not been fighting wars....our government SO wants to fight wars we even came up with the "War on Terror" .. inane. when we can't come up with wars the government helps make them up (Vietnam, WWII, the Spanish-American war, Cold War [how many lives ruined during the Red Scare over nothing] etc etc)

[hutch]

you see.. saying 9-11 was different or changed things is one thing.. saying it CHANGED EVERRRYYYYTHING is silly..

the further away, in fact, we get from it the less it changed over the long term..if you think about it..

we still have to listen to God Bless America at baseball games.. hopefully that will change soon....