Author Topic: 2022 - dems in disarray thread  (Read 86561 times)

nkotb

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #435 on: August 10, 2023, 04:02:55 pm »
I'm saying that, if you are the president and you can't bully your own party into towing the line, then no, you do not "control" the Senate.

Yes you control it if you have a majority and in a tie the VP breaks it giving you the majority. Doesnít mean senate passes every bill you like. Heck you could have 55 senators and bills you prefer might not get passed. Would you then say Democrats donít control the senate?

Here's the difference, IMO: Ever "never Trump" republican that libs get a hard-on about voted with Trump 98% of the time.  However they do it, Republicans stick to the script in a way Dems can't seem to do.  Look at all the shit that got done under Trump vs. the amount of stuff that Biden has had to backtrack, or watch crumble because Manchin and Sinema decided not to vote for it, or because he didn't actually want to do the thing anyway ($15 minimum wage).

You canít seriously tell me you donít realize that if Republicans had the majority in the senate things would be very different.

I don't know, I wouldn't call the amount of COVID deaths since 2021 or throwing 3 million children back into poverty after letting the child tax credit expire or approving more drilling permits than Trump or continuing Trump's horrific border policies or 60% of adults living paycheck to paycheck or throwing $75 billion to Ukraine overwhelming victories, but that's just me!

He did pull out of Afghanistan and reduced drone strikes, which are both good.  And he's given more money to the climate (though not nearly enough, so does it matter?).  He's better than Obama, I'd say.

Essentially you are saying the Biden presidency is a failure because we canít pass some legislation you favor. The idea government is just about passing bills - and in particular bills you like- is preposterous.

I stand by everything I said. She's a loser and I wish I hadn't voted for her, but I did.

Dude I donít think you want me to check the historical record on the inanities you said about Hillary.


Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #436 on: August 10, 2023, 08:07:51 pm »
I never understood what the benefit of having him be in the party if he's constantly voting against the party line. Controlling the Senate doesn't mean much if he's voting against you.
God, you're a child. Because he votes with the Dems 95% of the time!

There is not one other person on earth who wins that senate seat in this day and age and votes with the Dems more than 30% of the time. Sorry he doesnít vote for stupid horseass shit like ending the filibuster and naming fifty new Supreme Court justices. Itís him or a solid red seat.

Fucking Bernie Bro idiots, I swear.
LVMH

nkotb

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #437 on: August 10, 2023, 08:25:25 pm »
I know you guys arent this stupid. 

Sure he votes with Democrats.  But he also constantly threatens to withhold his vote until the bill is Republican-lite. That is voting against the stated party platform.

He has actively tanked good polices under Biden. Thats a fact! This isn't a hard concept.

Heres the real question. Is Manchin going suddenly vote differently as an independent? Then who fucking cares which party he affiliates himself with! Like everything nothing will actually change but you yahoos will get all riled up about it.

nkotb

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #438 on: August 10, 2023, 08:27:59 pm »
I think its actually like 88% so by Prices Rights rules, you lose

God, you're a child. Because he votes with the Dems 95% of the time

Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #439 on: August 10, 2023, 09:01:25 pm »
But he also constantly threatens to withhold his vote until the bill is Republican-lite.
Ok: what percentage of the time does this happen? Youíre saying constantly; Iím saying 15% of the time. (Be sure to tell me who is the realistic Victor in WV that votes at a higher percentage with the Dems too since the comparison is not Manchin vs AOC, itís Manchin vs the next best reasonable candidate who can steal a Senate seat in the reddest state in the country!)

Come with the receipts, Star Wars boy. Letís see who shot first.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 09:05:08 pm by Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI »
LVMH

Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #440 on: August 10, 2023, 09:09:10 pm »
50 seats (and the VP) is 1 million times better than 49...it's like not even the same sport anymore

So while Coal Country Joe doesn't knell in fealty, does hurt the brand and make it difficult to get things done...of course, it does, but so much better than Hershel and I can't remember the stockbroker lady's name. 
We'd probably have impeachment hearings and a senate that was willing to convict (likely over nothing too)

But things clearly got done with a Senate majority in the past few years. You can paint it however horrifically as you like, but for most of my lifetime the Senate is where bills go to die a unheralded death
seems like a low bar, yeah... but that's where we are


Here's the difference, IMO: Ever "never Trump" republican that libs get a hard-on about voted with Trump 98% of the time.  However they do it, Republicans stick to the script in a way Dems can't seem to do.
Honestly THANK FUCKING GOD...I think it shows they can be a democrat and think independently.

It works well for getting agenda/laws passed, but personally, I would never sell my soul to a party where everyone falls in line, no matter how absolutely bat-shit crazy it is, 99.9 of the times (.01% is they actually cast a mis-vote, but since they won overwhelmingly they didn't recast)

 the problem with the dems is, if they are lucky they get an 80% real consensus across the party so they have to shoot really middle of the road as to not piss off big coalitions of voters

In the GOP, they actually can't piss off their base. it's amazing
Even though the whole platform is radically changing over the last 40 years...they still all fall in line


The only caveat I will say to all that is...today's GOP is today's GOP only because of MAGA.  In all my years, I never saw poor people fly flags and put up lawn signs for any president.  These people were almost off the map as a voting population, now they are a block (in a lot of key states) that is ALL IN for Trump. 
But  who is going to be able to fill Trumps shoes when he is dead (hopefully we don't have to wait 20 more years for that)
I don't think anyone can get those poor western PA (MI, FL and other places) folks with their trailer bedazzled with trump paraphernalia. 

 Those people will never vote for anyone in the GOP or any of his kids (although they will be generational shit-stirrers for sure)

So the moment when Trump is not in power or a kingmaker...I don't know if the GOP collation can stay together, because they will lose 10 million key voters.
least on a presidential level and that impacts down ballot quite a bit

slack

Hutch

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #441 on: August 10, 2023, 10:46:13 pm »
I get annoyed with Manchin. We all do. And sometimes I kvetch about himÖ.

But itís just politics. Heís got to have that ďLook mountaineers I hear you and I am keeping the entire liberal Democratic Party in check singlehandedlyĒ persona. Itís his brand.

kosmo vinyl

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #442 on: August 11, 2023, 07:11:44 am »
Focus people, new Breezy Supreme dropped today!!!

And pour one out for thingambobhatch as he'll soon be "listening" to a new Olivia Rodrigo album
T.Rex

kosmo vinyl

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #443 on: August 11, 2023, 07:48:43 am »
Focus People Part Deux...  New The Hives dropped today as well

and I listen to that new Oliva Rodrigo because some mentioned who ever wrote must be an Elastica fan and it's very damn catchy
T.Rex

Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #444 on: August 11, 2023, 08:40:58 am »
And pour one out for thingambobhatch as he'll soon be "listening" to a new Olivia Rodrigo album.
I have yet to be submitted to this torture yet, but goddamn do I have some hours in on Sour
slack

nkotb

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #445 on: August 11, 2023, 09:09:40 am »
This is my point. Right now, Dems have the majority with 48 democrats and 3 independents.  That doesn't change if Manchin goes independent...he's still caucusing with them, so who cares.

50 seats (and the VP) is 1 million times better than 49...it's like not even the same sport anymore


I dunno, i'd rather Democrats have some groupthink if it means they'd actually pass the stuff they pretend to care about.

Honestly THANK FUCKING GOD...I think it shows they can be a democrat and think independently.

I 100% disagree with this.  I mean, you're right about what happens when Trump dies, but the GOP has been this evil my entire life.  They just used to care about hiding it a little better.

The only caveat I will say to all that is...today's GOP is today's GOP only because of MAGA.  In all my years, I never saw poor people fly flags and put up lawn signs for any president.  These people were almost off the map as a voting population, now they are a block (in a lot of key states) that is ALL IN for Trump. 

Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #446 on: August 11, 2023, 09:19:23 am »
my feeling is these bluecollar low education whites will not support just any GOP candidate
I really don't see anyone taking trump's mantle to get these voters (who typically didn't vote) to the polls

maybe I'm wrong, but these people were not traditional GOP voters and their agenda has shifted the GOP agenda
but I have yet to see a single candidate or personality that could actually get them to vote
they seem to be jazzed about RFK jr, which is pretty odd
slack

nkotb

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #447 on: August 11, 2023, 09:32:18 am »
I do think a more progressive Senate candidate that was independent could win in West Virginia. I don't think that would happen given the two party system, and it wouldn't be someone cool like Rashida Talib or Ilhan Omar, obviously.  But it's also true that him just changing the letter next to his name doesn't change how he votes or who he caucuses with.  It didn't for Sinema, it wouldn't for him.  Dems still have the majority.

But since you asked, here are some big ones he railroaded:

* voted against Biden's student loan cancellation plan
* withheld his vote on the stimulus plan until it got watered down
* did the same with the inflation reduction act
* opposed raising minimum wage
* opposed For the People Act
* opposed filibuster reform

Those are pretty big things, some items Biden was intending to be his signature wins, that this guy derailed, voted down or made far weaker.  And I didn't include not voting for Neera Tanden because that was funny and good.


But he also constantly threatens to withhold his vote until the bill is Republican-lite.
Ok: what percentage of the time does this happen? Youíre saying constantly; Iím saying 15% of the time. (Be sure to tell me who is the realistic Victor in WV that votes at a higher percentage with the Dems too since the comparison is not Manchin vs AOC, itís Manchin vs the next best reasonable candidate who can steal a Senate seat in the reddest state in the country!)

Come with the receipts, Star Wars boy. Letís see who shot first.



Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #448 on: August 11, 2023, 09:39:34 am »
* withheld his vote on the stimulus plan until it got watered down
* did the same with the inflation reduction act
While all of that is true...they did both pass and were some of the biggest spending bills we've ever seen

the IRA act kinda annoys me how judicious it is...apparently, Texas and a number of red states are getting obnoxious windfalls from this...yet the senators voted against it and are acting like "see I brought the bacon home baby"
slack

Hutch

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Re: 2022 - dems in disarray thread
« Reply #449 on: August 11, 2023, 10:09:51 am »
I think he did Biden a favor voting against student cancellation. Did it lose by one vote? Skeptical

This isnít a parliamentary system. Senators first obligation is to represent their constituents not vote for whatever party proposes.