Author Topic: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!  (Read 7836 times)

brennser

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2005, 12:13:00 pm »
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Originally posted by sonickteam, forum nice guy:
   
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Originally posted by ggw?:
   
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Originally posted by MTB-Markie:
  Kosmo is right, no one is enjoying it, give it a rest.
Amen. [/b]
bless you [/b]
Praise be

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2005, 12:40:00 pm »
In 1927, a major unnamed hurricane struck the city of New Orleans.
 It was actually more powerful than Katrina.  The scope of damage was much more severe because this particular hurricane actually hit the city.  Katrina missed it by 25 miles.
 
 The interesting difference is the response the government gave in 1927 to those refugees, compared to the refugees of Katrina, err- I meant "survivors" ---(sorry Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson).
 How much aid did the government dispense at that time?  Zero, nada, not one dime. And you know how much aid the army offered?  The only aid from the army came in the form of loaning the city of New Orleans tents and camp stoves.  Ironically, later, the army sued the city for reimbursement.  So what was the big difference here?
 
 It was the attitude the people had towards the government at that time, compared to the attitude that Katrina's victims have.  The 1927 "survivors" expected nothing from the government.  80 years ago, people understood that the government was there to "protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  Today, Americans expect the government to "provide life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  That's a major difference.  And now, a week later, when the government failed on all three levels of local, state, and federal to provide for their needs, Americans were sorely disappointed.
 
 Reverend Jackson and Reverend Sharpton spend their opportunities arguing about semantics.  "They shouldn't be called refugees, they should be called survivors". Unfortunately, they missed the boat.  It was a perfect opportunity to deliver a very basic message to their people.
 
 Fact, if you are poor and uneducated in America, this is what happens.
 Fact, if you depend on the government, you will be sorely disappointed.
 Fact, if you are poor in America, there is no reason for you to be uneducated.  It's free!  12 grades.  And if you really apply yourself, there is enough grants and assistance out there for higher education, which will raise you above the poverty level.  And no longer will you depend on the government and be disappointed.  It's unfortunate that this lesson will be missed by most "survivors".
 
 A couple of other points should be brought to light.  G.W. has asked the congess for 50 billion dollars worth of aid for the "survivors" and clean up of the city. Interesting, isn't it?  One million people displaced and out of work in that city, sitting all day in shelters, waiting for the next handout.  Of course, the thought never occurred to anyone that just maybe, "hey, we should give all these folks jobs filling sand bags to plug the levees and clearing trees."  (Wonder how many of them would want government aid if they had to work for it?)
 
 And finally, they haven't hardly begun the task of picking up dead bodies, and already the finger pointing has started.  The congressional hearings and probes will go on forever.  Millions will be spent on a wasted diatribe of a bipartisan "witch hunting expedition"- all of which will be nonsense.  If you're a Democrat, you are going to blame the President.  If you are a Republican, you are going to blame the mayor and the governor.  This is another case in point of how the government will once again fail its people, they could have spent the millions educating the poor and misplaced citizens of new Orleans so that they could go out and get a new and better life, instead of wasting it on useless blame investigations.
       <img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/team_dupek/021432cd.jpg" alt=" - " />   <img src="http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/team_dupek/b825ae1a.jpg" alt=" - " />

muschi

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2005, 12:57:00 pm »
interesting points BUT many things have changed since 1927 with society, infrastructure and govt role in it. today govt provides buses, subways etc etc. then, their werent as many ppl and today they arent as "nice" and relatively unproblematic as back then. then there wasnt environmental degradation like today. i think its an assumption and unfair that all the ppl in norlens where unemployed and useless alot of poor people bust their asses for wat lil they get. its a bit racist to assume they r all lazy hoodlums. and the origins and constraints that hav them in the position need to be considered. not that there isnt some lack of self-initiative to blame for their economic plight.

Sage 703

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2005, 12:59:00 pm »
Come on man, this is so ridiculous for so many reasons.
 
   
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The scope of damage was much more severe because this particular hurricane actually hit the city. Katrina missed it by 25 miles.
   
[/b]
 
 I think its unanimously agreed that this hurricane was so deadly because it hit where it did, causing the levees to break and flood the city.
 
 And you really think comparing 2005 to 1927 is an adequate comparison?  The world hasn't changed to the point of making this ridiculous?  Let us think for a second about how connected the country has become, not to mention the world.  In 1927, the federal government would have had no way of knowing the extent of the impact of a hurricane that hit Louisiana until weeks after the fact - the way in which information circulated was fundamentally different.  The same can be said about the ways in which aid is transmitted to victims - things went slower, and priorities were different.  Not to mention the fact that the government in 1927 was in economic contraction prior to the Great Depression (http://www.amatecon.com/gd/gdtimeline.html).
 
 And let's look at your facts:
 
   
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Fact, if you are poor and uneducated in America, this is what happens.
 Fact, if you depend on the government, you will be sorely disappointed.
 Fact, if you are poor in America, there is no reason for you to be uneducated. It's free! 12 grades. And if you really apply yourself, there is enough grants and assistance out there for higher education, which will raise you above the poverty level. And no longer will you depend on the government and be disappointed. It's unfortunate that this lesson will be missed by most "survivors".
[/b]
 
 Tell me where there is a fact in any of these statements.  If you're poor and uneducated, you deserve to have everything that you own and know washed away in a flood?  If you're poor and depend on the government, you deserve to be disappointed?  If you're poor and uneducated, its your fault for not taking advantage of a public education system?
 
 This is just absurd logic, and is one of the fundamental misunderstandings of federalism.  One of the largest problems with the federal system is that wealth is unevenly distributed - a fact which is self-reinforcing.  Explain to me how an education system that is funded primarily through state finances is going to get better in a state where there isn't any money to begin with.  Lets not forget the fact that localities within states have the same problem - local taxes often supply the bread and butter of the education system.  Ever have a referendum passed in your county that was to support the local school system?
 
 The fact is, the money available for schooling in Louisiana is absurdly less than, say, Northern Virginia, New York, or any other affluent state in this country.  You think public schools in Montana are on par with public schools in Northern Virginia?
 
 I don't disagree with your point about using the money in investigations for educating and aiding the victims of the storm.  But I think an investigation is still vital for the sake of knowing how to fix it.  We've sunk billions of dollars into increasing our safety and capability to respond to disaster.  A few hundred thousand more isn't going to change much (note that the 9/11 Commission was only allocated $600,000 to do their work...compared to the $64 million spent on Clinton's impeachment).

kosmo vinyl

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2005, 01:15:00 pm »
guess Ellis has gone to the Xavier school of posting...
 
 http://www.wmi.org/multi_boards/Politics/T12449.htm
T.Rex

Sage 703

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2005, 01:18:00 pm »
Good lord.  I can't believe the number of people that are agreeing with this guy.  I'm replying there too.

godsshoeshine

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2005, 01:21:00 pm »
WAIT. didn't the relief effort in the 1927 flood do a bunch for hoover winning the white house the next year? i think the facts are a little screwed up in that copy/paste rant
o/\o

Sage 703

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2005, 01:25:00 pm »
Yes it did.
 
 While I don't agree with everything this column has to say, I think it outlines the issue a little bit better than the rant above.  This at least gives some historical perspective and theoretical argument to back its ultimate point of government non-involvement.
  http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_comment/tamny200509140845.asp
 
 
 A Deluge Instructs
 The Mississippi flood of 1927, and its lessons for 2005.
 
 By John Tamny
 
 With the $62 billion that??s been approved for Hurricane Katrina relief efforts set to run out in the coming weeks, a competition between the Democrats and Republicans has seemingly begun over which party can be more generous with the peoples?? money. So far, Republican Sen. Judd Gregg is the leader of this spending movement, having ??bid? $200 billion last week. The initial outlay of $62 billion already is a record disbursement for a U.S. natural disaster, and arguably has its roots in the unprecedented federal response to the 1927 Mississippi River flood that similarly crippled New Orleans and much of the South.
 
 
     
 The 1927 relief effort was unparalleled. According to historian John Barry, who wrote the 1997 book Rising Tide, there was at the time ??a fault line in American thought about the role of government and how much responsibility it had for its citizens.? Before 1927, this fault line had not been crossed.
 
 Indeed, in 1887 President Grover Cleveland vetoed a $10,000 appropriation for drought victims in Texas based on his contention that the federal government had no ??warrant in the Constitution ? to indulge a benevolent and charitable sentiment through the appropriation of public funds.? In 1907 the federal government demanded that banks in New Orleans put up $250,000 before the surgeon general would help fight the yellow fever epidemic there.
 
 Despite the fact that the 1927 flood left 1 percent of the U.S. population homeless, had an estimated death toll in the thousands, and burdened the Red Cross with nearly 700,000 refugees to feed, there was great reluctance on the part of Southern leaders to initiate federal action. When President Calvin Coolidge refused to call Congress into session to respond to the flood, they backed him.
 
 The consensus during that era was that government should do nothing in times of a localized natural crisis. This was in particular true of the federal government. According to Barry, ??direct aid had always been considered charity, and charity stigmatized recipients.? When a 1922 flood in Tennessee left 35,000 homeless, Gov. John Parker refused all outside help ?? even from the Red Cross. In the aftermath of the ??27 flood, Tennessee Gov. Austin Peay similarly refused aid given his belief that ??the people in the local communities should be expected to provide for themselves, rather than depend on outside assistance.?
 
 Commenting on the events of 1927, the Chicago Journal of Commerce stated that if ??relief of sufferers were to become a government task, the self-respect of recipients of funds would be decidedly damaged.? A New York Times editorial said it was fortunate ??there are still some things that can be done without the wisdom of Congress and the all-fathering Federal Government.?
 
 Still, the federal government did involve itself in the local disaster of ??27, and Commerce Secretary Herbert Hoover??s unprecedented relief efforts arguably won him the White House the next year. Notably, federal relief was mild by today??s standards, and none of it was direct. Instead, Hoover created government reconstruction corporations that created $13 million in credit for flood victims. At the time the federal government was running a budget surplus of $635 million.
 
 But slopes are slippery, and by 1928 Congress passed a flood-control bill for the Mississippi River that was ??the greatest expenditure the government has undertaken except in the World War.? The Mississippi River was now a national problem, and U.S. taxpayers were seemingly for the first time on the hook for expenditures made to fix a problem that was local in nature. Not unlike spending estimates that are made today ?? though the total cost for the federal flood-control plan was $300 million ?? the consensus was that it would run to $1 billion. About the bill, Barry noted that it ??set a precedent of direct, comprehensive, and vastly expanded federal involvement in local affairs.?
 
 Despite this massive flow of taxpayer funds into the South, its economies did not boom. New Orleans, formerly the richest city in America, actually declined.
 
 Sen. Gregg (among others) should take note. Massive aid has never worked to do more than temporarily patch an injured economy, and it won??t work this time. More important, it has to be asked whether or not today??s federal bidding wars between the political parties are examples of ??moral hazard? at its worst.
 
 This is not meant to minimize the truly awful impact of Hurricane Katrina on Louisiana and Mississippi. But if U.S. taxpayers are going to pay each time a natural disaster strikes within our borders, won??t there be less incentive on the part of states, municipalities, and builders to plan and construct cities and housing developments with local hazards in mind? Just as the existence of the IMF makes it possible for private banks to make bad loans, can it be said that the ability of the U.S. government to tax its citizenry makes city and state governments less cautious, and less mindful of the potential for disasters?
 
 Americans have been extraordinarily generous in Katrina??s aftermath, but has their generosity been tempered by the federal response? What about local leadership? Absent the existence of federal outfits such as FEMA and the Department of Defense, does anyone honestly think that the voters of New Orleans and Louisiana would have elected such obvious incompetents as Mayor Nagin and Gov. Blanco?
 
 The latter question is especially important as our leaders in Washington look to the break the bank with relief funds. Not only is it not compassionate to spend other peoples?? money, if the disaster in Louisiana tells us anything, the existence of the ??benevolent? federal government means that ineffective local responses to local disasters will arguably increase in frequency.
 
 While it??s certainly not compassionate to say the federal government should finally put its foot down and stay out of local relief efforts, it??s perhaps the right thing to do. It may be the only thing that insures better local response the next time something as awful as Katrina strikes

ggw

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2005, 01:29:00 pm »
Was 1927 the Good Flood? I don??t have Barry??s book in front of me any more (another library user recalled it the day after Katrina, and they weren't the only one looking for the book??Rising Tide jumped this week to #11 on Amazon's best seller list, and the NYT reports it's just gone back into print), but the picture of 1927 that he drew there was considerably less heartwarming. The majority of people displaced by the flood were black sharecroppers. The whites who owned flooded lands desperately feared that black labor would simply abandon the region after the waters receded. White planters had refused outside assistance after earlier floods for fear it would undermine their control of the region. In 1927, the planters succeeded in taking over relief efforts to see that they did not. National guardsmen were used to keep sharecroppers imprisoned in the refugee camps until they could return to working the land, and local officials charged homeless blacks??on credit, ever deepening their debts??for food and medical supplies the Red Cross had intended to be free.
 
 Barry describes how 1927 became a turning point in attitudes towards federal activism and relief??not because the U.S. government stepped in to help the victims of the flood, but because it didn??t, and the American public was outraged. Things changed after 1927. The Flood Control Act of 1928 was the most expensive single bill Congress had ever passed, and Barry sees it as a crucial first step towards the ambitious relief activities of the New Deal. But in the wake of the flood and right through the New Deal years, the prime beneficiaries of the new federal paternalism remained the region??s white planters.
 
 http://www.robmacdougall.org/archives/2005/09/the_good_flood.php

muschi

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2005, 01:33:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
  WAIT. didn't the relief effort in the 1927 flood do a bunch for hoover winning the white house the next year? i think the facts are a little screwed up in that copy/paste rant
yes they are in fact a big fact is wrong depsression didnt hit til 1929. doooohhh!!!

Sage 703

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2005, 01:33:00 pm »
I have no doubt that this is also true - furthering the point that times have changed (or maybe they haven't changed that much after all, if the relief is still benefitting whites more than blacks).

muschi

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2005, 01:39:00 pm »
i suppose if blacks dont own propery than any rebuilding assistance will go to ppl other than landless blacks.

Venerable Bede

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2005, 02:13:00 pm »
if there is free education, then who's fault is it for not taking advantage of it?  at some point, we all have to bear some sort of personal responsibility (both individually and as parents).  
 
 as for money spent on education- d.c. ranks number 1 in the nation on the amount of money its spends per pupil (~$12,000 per student v. $7,500 for virginia- 27th in the nation.  for the record, montana is just about $7,000), so, logically, shouldn't d.c. have the highest quality of education, since they spend the most on it??
 
 in any event, the flood control acts (and their progeny) were forays into state control that was never envisioned by the constitution (under the auspice of interstate commerce).  the state governments were then and still are responsible for the day-to-day well-being of their citizens.
OU812

godsshoeshine

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2005, 02:36:00 pm »
so would it follow that the current administration's efforts to spend so much on the rebuilding process does not take a conservative view of the constitution?
o/\o

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Re: This storm looks like a BIg ONE!
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2005, 02:51:00 pm »
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Originally posted by kosmo vinyl:
  guess Ellis has gone to the Xavier school of posting...  http://www.wmi.org/multi_boards/Politics/T12449.htm  
That's not where I stole that from, btw.
 
 But, yes I have learned that to be taken seriously, it's best not to include a link.  You didn't think I actually write all of this, did you?
 
 Kosmo: a graduate of the ggw school of googling...