More influential: Velvet Underground or Led Zeppelin?

[thingsfallapart]

Originally posted by Mobius:
  What don't you agree with?  Everyone listened to Zeppelin.  And how many people picked up a guitar or started a band between 1972 and 1991 and wanted to play Zeppelin?  A kajillion?    Who even heard of VU?  I don't think any of the VU albums sold more than 10,000 copies when released.  Zeppelin sold zillions.  Only a few people were listening to VU, and not to repeat any cliches, they were influential.

Sure, Zeppelin sold more records.  There's no arguing that.  But saying "everyone" listened to Zeppelin is a bit of an overstatement.  Regardless.  
 
 You can't measure influence by album sales.  I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that the entire genre of indie rock would not exist (or would at least exist in a vastly different nature) had VU not been around.  How many indie rockers have stepped up to a mike and said "I want to sing like Lou Reed?"  Countless.  The same goes for many, many other genres, including noise, post-rock, metal, hell, even pop music.  
 
 Simply because Zeppelin sold more records (and, based on your logic, had more fans) means nothing.  VU's influence on the sound of music in the past three decades is incalculable.  It's hard to say the say about Zeppelin.

[Relaxer]

Originally posted by thingsfallapart:
   

Originally posted by Mobius:
 ]

Sure, Zeppelin sold more records.  There's no arguing that.  But saying "everyone" listened to Zeppelin is a bit of an overstatement.   [/b]

I've got to think that anyone who went to high school in the 70s and 80s will confirm that Led Zeppelin was the biggest band ever. Okay, not every single person listened to Zeppelin, but it is pretty fair to say that every rock fan got into Zeppelin at some point. And the amount of people who wished to sing like Lou Reed pales terribly in comparison to the amount of people who wished to sing like Robert Plant. And that's not even bringing in the amount of people who wanted to play like Jimmy Page. Or John Bonham. Or John Paul Jones.
 
 Your average person thinks Lou Reed is a solo guy who did Walk on the Wild Side and couldn't even remotely name or sing a single VU song or name one of their albums or band members. But my grandmother knows Stairway to Heaven, and yours probably does to.
 
 VU was a very innovative band, but Zep was much more influential. They may have cribbed from past sources, but just the sheer number of people who obsessed over the albums and played along with the songs and sang them into the mirror and formed bands is staggering.
 
 I'm not at all saying Zep was the better band, just that you can't deny that probably a hundred million people worldwide over the last 35 years have been influenced directly by Zep's music.
 
 And indie rock could still have happened without VU. The Beatles had already introduced experimentalism and feedback to rock.
 
 Wow, I'm rambling.

[thingsfallapart]

Originally posted by Relaxer:
   

Originally posted by thingsfallapart:
   

Originally posted by Mobius:
 ]

Sure, Zeppelin sold more records.  There's no arguing that.  But saying "everyone" listened to Zeppelin is a bit of an overstatement.   [/b]

I've got to think that anyone who went to high school in the 70s and 80s will confirm that Led Zeppelin was the biggest band ever. Okay, not every single person listened to Zeppelin, but it is pretty fair to say that every rock fan got into Zeppelin at some point. And the amount of people who wished to sing like Lou Reed pales terribly in comparison to the amount of people who wished to sing like Robert Plant. And that's not even bringing in the amount of people who wanted to play like Jimmy Page. Or John Bonham. Or John Paul Jones.
 
 Your average person thinks Lou Reed is a solo guy who did Walk on the Wild Side and couldn't even remotely name or sing a single VU song or name one of their albums or band members. But my grandmother knows Stairway to Heaven, and yours probably does to.
 
 VU was a very innovative band, but Zep was much more influential. They may have cribbed from past sources, but just the sheer number of people who obsessed over the albums and played along with the songs and sang them into the mirror and formed bands is staggering.
 
 I'm not at all saying Zep was the better band, just that you can't deny that probably a hundred million people worldwide over the last 35 years have been influenced directly by Zep's music.
 
 And indie rock could still have happened without VU. The Beatles had already introduced experimentalism and feedback to rock.
 
 Wow, I'm rambling. [/b]

I think maybe you're missing my point.  Yes, I acknowledge that more people know of Zeppelin than VU.  But that's not what I'm arguing.  We are arguing who had the bigger influence on the shape of music--therefore it's irrelevant if our grandmothers know who Zep is, since they didn't play any part in the development of popular music.  I'm arguing about influence regarding the sound of music--not influence in terms of sheer numbers.

[Sage 703]

I think influence versus importance is a very relevant distinction.
 
 Bowie has a great quote about the Velvet Underground.  Something like, "only 1,000 people bought the first Velvet Underground record, but every single one of them became a musician."  I think this keys into the importance of the Velvet Underground, but...
 
 I think its impossible to ignore the fact that influence is directly related to the people impacted by the music.  And Zeppelin, no matter how you slice it - and as it was mentioned previously - reached more people.  Regardless of whether or not they were ripping off old blues songs, they got it to people that hadn't heard them before.  The volume of people that heard those Led Zep. records, and went "wow, I need to know more about this" or "wow, I need to learn how to play the guitar," its impossible to estimate the influence that they had.  But by simply reaching a larger audience, I think its likely that they had more influence on the music listening public.
 
 If people have seen "Dig!" there is a great quote that Courtney Taylor or one of the Dandys makes about Anton Newcombe.  He says something along the lines of "its impossible to start a music revolution if you remain underground."  Certainly not to say that the Velvet Underground remained an unknown band, but I think that's a good point of reference here.  Led Zeppelin flat out reached more people, and by virtue of that, I'd have to say that they were more influential.  Yes, it is a volume issue, but that also translates into different sounds: look at grunge, modern rock, metal, and so forth were all influenced by Zeppelin in some big ways.
 
 But more important is a different question altogether.  Then you start factoring in the questions of originality - and that's where you probably have a stronger argument for the Velvet Underground.

[Mobius]

The point I was trying to make is that its not how many people you influence, its who you influence.  As many people as listened to Zeppelin, as many musicians as listened to Zeppelin, how many great bands were influenced by them.  I can't think of many.
 
 How many were influenced by VU?  VU, to the few people who heard them, seemed to inspire people to write songs on their own.  Zeppelin seemed to inspire people to want to be Zeppelin.

[Herr Professor Doktor Doom]

At this point I have to mention that a few years ago I was walking down P Streeet NW wearing my Velvet Underground t-shirt, you know the one with the bananna.   This fat, unkempt guy looking a little bit like Michael Moore and walking with a beautiful Asian girlfriend was coming towards me.  Suddenly he pointed at me and started yelling "NERD!!!," while his girlfriend tee-heed.  It was quite a weird experience.
 
 http://www.alex.to/blogs

[Guiny]

Originally posted by D O C T O R D O O O O O M:
  At this point I have to mention that a few years ago I was walking down P Streeet NW wearing my Velvet Underground t-shirt, you know the one with the bananna.   This fat, unkempt guy looking a little bit like Michael Moore and walking with a beautiful Asian girlfriend was coming towards me.  Suddenly he pointed at me and started yelling "NERD!!!," while his girlfriend tee-heed.  It was quite a weird experience.
 
  http://www.alex.to/blogs

So did you prove him wrong and kick his ass or say something like "what the hell are you talking about you fat fuck with your mail order bride?", or did you just smile and walk away?

[beetsnotbeats]

Google Fight!
 
 22,000,000 to 9,970,000. Zep wins.
 
  RILM Music Abstracts search (a measure of who academics are writing about):
 
 Led Zeppelin - 72
 Velvet Underground - 39
 
 Obviously, this in no way ends the argument but these numbers are indicative at some level.

[Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer]

Alex, I know it's been years since this took place. But after all these years, I'd like to formally offer you an apology for my rude behavior.
 
 P.S. My comment had nothing to do with your t-shirt.
 
 
   

Originally posted by D O C T O R D O O O O O M:
  At this point I have to mention that a few years ago I was walking down P Streeet NW wearing my Velvet Underground t-shirt, you know the one with the bananna.   This fat, unkempt guy looking a little bit like Michael Moore and walking with a beautiful Asian girlfriend was coming towards me.  Suddenly he pointed at me and started yelling "NERD!!!," while his girlfriend tee-heed.  It was quite a weird experience.
 
   http://www.alex.to/blogs  

[Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer]

Think a little harder.
 
 

Originally posted by Mobius:
  The point I was trying to make is that its not how many people you influence, its who you influence.  As many people as listened to Zeppelin, as many musicians as listened to Zeppelin, how many great bands were influenced by them.  I can't think of many.
 
 

[ggw]

A VU t-shirt may get you called a nerd, but a Zeppelin sticker could get you pulled over by the fuzz.

[freakoretardo]

This is what I'm talking about people, good debate!  <img src="http://www.yourbbsucks.com/forum/images/smilies/bananna2.gif" alt=" - " />

[Guiny]

Originally posted by ggwâ?¢:
  A VU t-shirt may get you called a nerd, but a Zeppelin sticker could get you pulled over by the fuzz.

That sounds like discrimination against Zeppelin fans, where are those two fags Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when you need them.

[sonickteam2]

i will put in my vote for Zeppelin.
 
    but VU was very influential too  

[kosmo vinyl]

Led Zeppelin, like The Beatles before them, caused many people to go get guitars, etc and form bands which has more impact than say being influential.  
 
 VU, also like the later day Beatles before them, caused many people to rethink how music was written and created which them influential than LedZep.