Author Topic: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition  (Read 1455357 times)

sweetcell

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2220 on: November 07, 2013, 01:45:03 pm »
the problem with scalpers is that they are interfering with artists' relationship with their fans.  plenty of artists could charge more than they do but they don't.  

it's like you having a good relationship with a restaurant owner, and because you're a frequent client he cuts you a deal on your check to maintain or reward your loyalty.  imagine if someone stood up and said "well the restaurant didn't charge you full cost, so i'm going to get between the two of you and make sure you pay the full amount - fork over the difference."  if this happens, you can expect the restaurant owner to eventually not give any discounts (which is what concert promoters are doing by jacking up prices to scalper's levels).  it's not a perfect analogy but it illustrates my point of needless and unproductive interference.

then again, it's just a concert.
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Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2221 on: November 07, 2013, 01:46:13 pm »
my position is let the artist make whatever money they want...not the scalper who doesn't provide the actual, you know, entertainment... and I haven't even said I would outlaw scalping.. so I really think you are protesting a bit much..
The artist is making what they want to make. The enter into a contract with a venue to play for a set amount. The venue then sells tickets in hopes of recouping what they're paying the artist.

If you see a band selling out instantly a 930-sized venue and tickets going for significantly more on the secondary market, its probably because the artist doesn't care to make more money. They could, in many cases, play somewhere bigger for a larger per diem but want to do a club tour for some reason.

A scalper is not to be blamed for seeing an inherent inequity between what something costs and what many other people are willing to pay for it. I wonder if you all have similar moral outrage at antique dealers and those guys on American Pickers. Everyone on earth understands this concept in all other walks of life, and even when it relates to far more important matters, but if someone in this community is unable to get into a concert at face value, they immediately become petulant children.
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hutch

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2222 on: November 07, 2013, 01:49:08 pm »
and Julian, i think you misunderstood

what I'm saying is that I'd rather a lobby set up to defend concertgoers right to have access to tickets at face value (as high as they want to go) than the right of people to sell their tickets for more than they paid..and there are many other things a lobby or interest group could do...ticket charges also comes to mind.. its all fake! the ticket charges are being split by the venue, ticket seller, and artist... be upfront and just add it to the ticket


we hear increasingly of seats being siphoned off before the onsale and then with the exclusive presales left and right it leaves less and less tickets for the general onsale...

basically there is less and less transparency in ticket sales and I find that annoying as a ticket purchaser...

Brian_Wallace

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2223 on: November 07, 2013, 01:51:17 pm »
and this widespread acceptance of scalping is a slippery slope cause next thing you know the original ticket sellers will hold back the tickets and scalp them themselves...its already happening... i mean since scalping is ok why can't they scalp them, right? at least then the money goes to the artist!
Lots of sports teams are already doing this. The whole "scalping is immoral" argument is basically a lot of you hating people making smart financial decisions, "change" occurring, and wishing the world was some idealistic Phish free-kindbud for everyone universe.

There was lots of scalping before stubhub and even before ticketmaster, despite the fact that a lot of you seem to picture the 1980s as this idealistic time where face value tickets were found in Cracker Jack boxes.



if you're defending artists and teams scalping their own tickets i find that illogical.. just charge what you want to get i the first place... I have no problem with any entertainment provider charging whatever people are willing to pay... its when you want to pretend you are charging less so people dont hate on you and then create a cover or degree of separation to charge what you want that I have a problem

and to say there was "a lot" of scalping going on in the 1980s? yeah there was the guy from fast times  but today its every kid on fast times, see the difference?

some people are always going to say that the change is all good and the past is all bad... that is their way of rationalizing where they are and feeling good about it...in some cases feeling superior.... its the same with illegal downloads and a whole host of things..streaming instead of buying music , artist be darmned etc.... "hey everybody is doing it! look at me doing it too!"



Jesus.  Hippie.  What color is the sky in your world?  You know, I have two other phrases for you, hutch:

"All You Need is Love"

and

"In the end...the love you take..is equal...to..hey...MONO mixes of Rubber Soul...on VINYL...you poor misguided 32 year-old losers!  On VINYL!  You missed the Summer of Love!"



"I am reminded of a line from Erich Segal's 'Love Story': "Love means never having to say you're sorry." However, it is with sincere regret that I must now kill all of you. "

Brian
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 01:54:03 pm by Brian_Wallace »

Brian_Wallace

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2224 on: November 07, 2013, 01:52:32 pm »
and Julian, i think you misunderstood

what I'm saying is that I'd rather a lobby set up to defend concertgoers right to have access to tickets at face value (as high as they want to go) than the right of people to sell their tickets for more than they paid..and there are many other things a lobby or interest group could do...ticket charges also comes to mind.. its all fake! the ticket charges are being split by the venue, ticket seller, and artist... be upfront and just add it to the ticket


we hear increasingly of seats being siphoned off before the onsale and then with the exclusive presales left and right it leaves less and less tickets for the general onsale...

basically there is less and less transparency in ticket sales and I find that annoying as a ticket purchaser...

Did the lead singer of Nirvana or something try that 20 years ago?

How did that turn out?

It couldn't have been Pearl Jam because Ticketmaster sells tickets to their latest tour.

Brian

atomic

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2225 on: November 07, 2013, 01:55:39 pm »
the problem with scalpers is that they are interfering with artists' relationship with their fans.  plenty of artists could charge more than they do but they don't.  

it's like you having a good relationship with a restaurant owner, and because you're a frequent client he cuts you a deal on your check to maintain or reward your loyalty.  imagine if someone stood up and said "well the restaurant didn't charge you full cost, so i'm going to get between the two of you and make sure you pay the full amount - fork over the difference."  if this happens, you can expect the restaurant owner to eventually not give any discounts (which is what concert promoters are doing by jacking up prices to scalper's levels).  it's not a perfect analogy but it illustrates my point of needless and unproductive interference.

then again, it's just a concert.

There are restaurants that don't charge full price? The scalper is good for the venue.  Because most scalpers aren't that savy when it comes to figuring what shows will sell out.  You get scalpers who buy tickets you get paid whether the show sells out or not.  If they get stuck with the tickets that is money in your pocket.  

We have capitalism here in America.  I mean I guess you could state the Capitalist system doesn't work.  But as long as the venue, the promoter, or the ticketing agent sell tickets to the scalper a head of time I don't see the problem.  Anyway you aren't going to get rid of the problem. As long as there is easy money to be made, people will make it.  

hutch

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2226 on: November 07, 2013, 01:55:58 pm »
my position is let the artist make whatever money they want...not the scalper who doesn't provide the actual, you know, entertainment... and I haven't even said I would outlaw scalping.. so I really think you are protesting a bit much..
The artist is making what they want to make. The enter into a contract with a venue to play for a set amount. The venue then sells tickets in hopes of recouping what they're paying the artist.

If you see a band selling out instantly a 930-sized venue and tickets going for significantly more on the secondary market, its probably because the artist doesn't care to make more money. They could, in many cases, play somewhere bigger for a larger per diem but want to do a club tour for some reason.

A scalper is not to be blamed for seeing an inherent inequity between what something costs and what many other people are willing to pay for it. I wonder if you all have similar moral outrage at antique dealers and those guys on American Pickers. Everyone on earth understands this concept in all other walks of life, and even when it relates to far more important matters, but if someone in this community is unable to get into a concert at face value, they immediately become petulant children.

what if a scalper jams up the computer systems to get all the tickets at face and then resells them? what if the scalper makes an arrangement with the venue or the artist and tickets are siphoned off to the secondary market?

at some point your impassioned defense of scalpers just doesn't make sense... you're trying to make it out like its the free market but its not free...at its most extreme its often rigged..

hutch

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2227 on: November 07, 2013, 01:58:51 pm »
and Julian, i think you misunderstood

what I'm saying is that I'd rather a lobby set up to defend concertgoers right to have access to tickets at face value (as high as they want to go) than the right of people to sell their tickets for more than they paid..and there are many other things a lobby or interest group could do...ticket charges also comes to mind.. its all fake! the ticket charges are being split by the venue, ticket seller, and artist... be upfront and just add it to the ticket


we hear increasingly of seats being siphoned off before the onsale and then with the exclusive presales left and right it leaves less and less tickets for the general onsale...

basically there is less and less transparency in ticket sales and I find that annoying as a ticket purchaser...

Did the lead singer of Nirvana or something try that 20 years ago?

How did that turn out?

It couldn't have been Pearl Jam because Ticketmaster sells tickets to their latest tour.

Brian

well it turned out pretty good..ticket charges used to be 3 or 4$ and now for big shows are $20 or $30..or more

as I think most people know the case went to court and Pearl Jam lost...  the courts make mistakes...


anyways fascinating chat guys.. i really do have a life i need to get back to so carry on...


atomic

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2228 on: November 07, 2013, 01:59:13 pm »
and this widespread acceptance of scalping is a slippery slope cause next thing you know the original ticket sellers will hold back the tickets and scalp them themselves...its already happening... i mean since scalping is ok why can't they scalp them, right? at least then the money goes to the artist!
Lots of sports teams are already doing this. The whole "scalping is immoral" argument is basically a lot of you hating people making smart financial decisions, "change" occurring, and wishing the world was some idealistic Phish free-kindbud for everyone universe.

There was lots of scalping before stubhub and even before ticketmaster, despite the fact that a lot of you seem to picture the 1980s as this idealistic time where face value tickets were found in Cracker Jack boxes.



if you're defending artists and teams scalping their own tickets i find that illogical.. just charge what you want to get i the first place... I have no problem with any entertainment provider charging whatever people are willing to pay... its when you want to pretend you are charging less so people dont hate on you and then create a cover or degree of separation to charge what you want that I have a problem

and to say there was "a lot" of scalping going on in the 1980s? yeah there was the guy from fast times  but today its every kid on fast times, see the difference?

some people are always going to say that the change is all good and the past is all bad... that is their way of rationalizing where they are and feeling good about it...in some cases feeling superior.... its the same with illegal downloads and a whole host of things..streaming instead of buying music , artist be darmned etc.... "hey everybody is doing it! look at me doing it too!"



Oh here is another point.  Show gets cancelled and I don't get all my money back.  That has happened to me twice. It is a scam. It should be illegal.  Nothing wrong with someone buying tickets and selling them when the price goes up.  You have opportunity costs and if you paid 40 dollars for a ticket and the scalped price goes up to 400 dollars a ticket  you are paying 400 dollars a ticket if you don't sell them.  For Instance I love Beach House but if their tickets went up to 400 dollars each I am selling them and doing something else with that money.  Not a band alive that I could see paying 400 dollars to see.

Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2229 on: November 07, 2013, 02:01:35 pm »
it's like you having a good relationship with a restaurant owner, and because you're a frequent client he cuts you a deal on your check to maintain or reward your loyalty.  imagine if someone stood up and said "well the restaurant didn't charge you full cost, so i'm going to get between the two of you and make sure you pay the full amount - fork over the difference."  if this happens, you can expect the restaurant owner to eventually not give any discounts (which is what concert promoters are doing by jacking up prices to scalper's levels).  it's not a perfect analogy but it illustrates my point of needless and unproductive interference.
A more fitting analogy is a regular customer going to a restaurant where he regularly orders Eggplant Parmesan for $12 only to be told the kitchen has run out of Eggplant Parmesan because its very late in the evening and the regular customer didn't call ahead or show up earlier in the dinner hour. The regular customer, unwilling to go without his beloved dish, sees another customer just getting served the last Eggplant Parmesan of the evening and runs over to that persons table beseeching them to sell them their Eggplant Parmesan. Startled, the customer who got their earlier in the dinner service goes "what? are you crazy? I'm sorry but I'm very hungry." Still unwilling to go without, the regular customer offers $50 for the Eggplant Parmesan. Unable to resist such a sum for a mere Eggplant Parmesan dinner, the customer agrees to the sale and tells others of his good fortune. The restaurant owner neither raises his prices for Eggplant Parmesan because he realizes, as a not-idiotic businessman, that the vast majority of his customers would never pay $50 for Eggplant Parmesan nor decides to tear down his restaurant and build one with a much larger kitchen and freezer because running out of Eggplant Parmesan at the end of the night is a rare occurrence and doing otherwise would potentially cause him to throw out excessive foods he'd order. Everyone goes home a winner: the restauranteur who got his stated asking price for Eggplant Parmesan which was specifically designed to maximize his customer base yet make him a healthy profit, the customer who was willing to be inconvenienced to make $38 profit on selling his food, the  (somewhat lazy and definitely overly-attached) regular customer who got to enjoy his beloved meal, and the Eggplant Parmesan itself who -- had it somehow been sentient -- would have felt extremely appreciated to know he was so valued.



then again, it's just a concert.
This is what annoys me. If someone wanted to take this moral outrage and direct it at, say, people making huge profits selling food to starving Africans that price many out of eating, Progressive Julian would be somewhat on board with that viewpoint. It's a discussion worth having, at least. When the argument is only made when one does not get a face value ticket to a concert, it's hard not to wish a lot of people had more perspective.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 02:03:59 pm by Julian, Former Weblebrity »
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Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2230 on: November 07, 2013, 02:08:23 pm »
what I'm saying is that I'd rather a lobby set up to defend concertgoers right to have access to tickets at face value (as high as they want to go) than the right of people to sell their tickets for more than they paid..and there are many other things a lobby or interest group could do...ticket charges also comes to mind.. its all fake! the ticket charges are being split by the venue, ticket seller, and artist... be upfront and just add it to the ticket
So basically your lobby wants to tear up the Constitution because you don't think people should have a right to do what they want with their property. Property rights are less important than fixed concert costs. I GET IT.

The ticket charges thing is my second most hated point about this community. Ticketing agents serve a valuable service to the community. If you think its not worth what they charge, great, go to the venue and buy a ticket at the box office. If, like myself, I don't want to take off work and drive 2 hours each way to buy tickets at the 930 Club box office, I eat the $7.50. It saves me a tremendous amount more in actual+opportunity costs just paying the ticketing charge. The fact that some of that goes back to the venue as a cost of retaining a client (the venue being the client in this scenario) is of no concern to me.

What's next, should Jimmy Eat World explain how they're going to spend my $25 ticket cost? How much is going towards mortgages and how much towards a new speedboat. I demand transparency in others finances!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 02:12:01 pm by Julian, Former Weblebrity »
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Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2231 on: November 07, 2013, 02:10:25 pm »
what if the scalper makes an arrangement with the venue or the artist and tickets are siphoned off to the secondary market?

at some point your impassioned defense of scalpers just doesn't make sense... you're trying to make it out like its the free market but its not free...at its most extreme its often rigged..

THE VENUE CAN DO THAT BECAUSE ITS THEIR PROPERTY! ITS THEIR PLAYGROUND! Free market != the complete abolition of all mutually-beneficial business contracts and the destruction of 230+ years of strongly held tenets with regard to property rights. This is INSANE.
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atomic

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2232 on: November 07, 2013, 02:28:30 pm »
what if the scalper makes an arrangement with the venue or the artist and tickets are siphoned off to the secondary market?

at some point your impassioned defense of scalpers just doesn't make sense... you're trying to make it out like its the free market but its not free...at its most extreme its often rigged..

THE VENUE CAN DO THAT BECAUSE ITS THEIR PROPERTY! ITS THEIR PLAYGROUND! Free market != the complete abolition of all mutually-beneficial business contracts and the destruction of 230+ years of strongly held tenets with regard to property rights. This is INSANE.

Well I guess it depends on the agreement they have with the band if they say you get a certain percentage of ticket sales and then they go and sell the tickets on the secondary market and give the artist the original percent I think that would be illegal. 

Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2233 on: November 07, 2013, 02:30:56 pm »
Well I guess it depends on the agreement they have with the band if they say you get a certain percentage of ticket sales and then they go and sell the tickets on the secondary market and give the artist the original percent I think that would be illegal. 
Well, sure, I agree with that. Contract law is contract law.
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hutch

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Re: Just Announced Commentary - 2011 Edition
« Reply #2234 on: November 07, 2013, 02:35:01 pm »
oh that is ridiculous.. very often when we buy property we agree to limitations on how we can use it..

I mean if what you're saying is true why do 930 staff limit resale of tickets outside the venue?