Last thoughts on Woody Guthrie

[hutch]

RANT: If we didn't have any more wars- most of which are made up and fought for no good reason- we wouldn't need to worry too much about our veterans and whether they are ok... Of course I honor our veterans but I cant help but feel that most of them are being sent to fight for no good reason.......How about we honor our troops by not putting them in harms way, thousands of miles from home, for no good reason? In his memoir Gore Vidal, who also served, said he didn't think World War II was worth the death of his friend and it makes you think about how lightly the people who put life in harm's way hold life... they always convince you the fate of humanity and "freedom" hang in the balance but...is that really true?. To me it sounds like bullshit when I hear people yapping on and on about our veterans and how we honor their service... how about we honor their service by not putting them in harm's way for no reason? by not supporting putting them in harm's way for no reason?.. I mean, is there any other country in the world that has fought more wars than the United States? Moreover, we honor our troops and we talk all this bullshit as a society but we know they don't get the care they deserve when they come back so what are we really talking about here? War does terrible things to people..I remember my parents telling me about neighbours who came back from Vietnam really messed up... and yet we can't wait to get into the next war and when our veterans come back we don't have money to help them out...something really messed up about this "honor our vets" charade we play out on veterans day. I learned a few years ago that someone in my family died in World War II in Europe...of course I honor him on Veterans day and I often think of him but lets stop the baloney..we wouldn't need to stand up and clap at every baseball game for our veterans coming back....when we shouldn't be sending them far from home for no good reason anyways...all the "our thoughts and prayers" rings very hollow to me I'm afraid...

[ggw]

I thought it would be good to get Julian's thoughts on Veterans Day, but then I found that he already posted them:

http://forum.930.com/index.php?topic=1644.msg26085#msg26085

[RatBastard]

As a veteran I am proud to have served.  Your entire post makes one rather fallacious premise, that being that every armed conflict ever fought was for 'no good reason'.  (Not to mention the 'we can't wait to get into the next war' comment.)  You are fully entitled to hold that belief.  Protecting your right to do so is one of the reasons that I served.  You are very welcome.

[Venerable Bede]

Julian should go into fortune telling business.

Not to pedantic about it, ok, I will, England and France fought each other for 100 years, and that was only one of their wars, so, yeah, lots of other countries have fought way more wars than us.

Boy, that American Revolution sure was no good, and I bet those European Jews are pretty satisfied with Hitler having murdered millions of them...but, then, those were made up wars fought for no reason.

[hutch]

Julian should go into fortune telling business.

Not to pedantic about it, ok, I will, England and France fought each other for 100 years, and that was only one of their wars, so, yeah, lots of other countries have fought way more wars than us.

Boy, that American Revolution sure was no good, and I bet those European Jews are pretty satisfied with Hitler having murdered millions of them...but, then, those were made up wars fought for no reason.

We did not fight World War II to help European Jews.... in fact we knew where the rail lines that took the jews to the concentration camps were and intentionally did not bomb them.. this is all documented... FDR had a Jewish Secretary of the Treasury (Morgenthau I believe) who implored him to do just that to no avail...

Its convenient for us to think we fought World War II to help Jewish people but its not substantiated by the facts..

[hutch]

Julian should go into fortune telling business.

Not to pedantic about it, ok, I will, England and France fought each other for 100 years, and that was only one of their wars, so, yeah, lots of other countries have fought way more wars than us.

Boy, that American Revolution sure was no good, and I bet those European Jews are pretty satisfied with Hitler having murdered millions of them...but, then, those were made up wars fought for no reason.

Some great made up wars: Spanish-American War (set up by Hearst), all our invasions of Latin American countries for no good reason (Do we want to get specific about all the places we sent the marines to make sure our "interests" were defended? United Fruit Company anyone? We did a particularly bang up job in Guatemala), Vietnam (Gulf of Tonkin lies), Persian Gulf War (what was the point? I forget), Irak War (made up)

[hutch]

As a veteran I am proud to have served.  Your entire post makes one rather fallacious premise, that being that every armed conflict ever fought was for 'no good reason'.  (Not to mention the 'we can't wait to get into the next war' comment.)  You are fully entitled to hold that belief.  Protecting your right to do so is one of the reasons that I served.  You are very welcome.

and I thank you of course.. but I would argue that not putting you in harms way for no good reason is the ultimate thank you or did you miss that point?... one can still be a veteran without being sent to die or lose a leg for no reason...

the usual "we honor your service clap clap" is a cheap platitude compared to say paying for your health care needs when you return from war....

[hutch]

Julian should go into fortune telling business.

Not to pedantic about it, ok, I will, England and France fought each other for 100 years, and that was only one of their wars, so, yeah, lots of other countries have fought way more wars than us.

in the last 200 years or since our founding? I don't think so... I visited an exhibit at the American Museum of National History and it was notable how we have pretty much been fighting this war or that war constantly...


Another great useless war was the Civil War... a war to tell the southern states "you can't leave the union that you joined voluntarily and we are going to fight a scorched earth war to make sure you don't..."

[i am gay and i like cats]

its the ole, do i post said rant in the thread with my name on it, or start a new thread, because thats really neat o to do every once in a while.  i know . . . i ponder such things too.

[RatBastard]

As a veteran I am proud to have served.  Your entire post makes one rather fallacious premise, that being that every armed conflict ever fought was for 'no good reason'.  (Not to mention the 'we can't wait to get into the next war' comment.)  You are fully entitled to hold that belief.  Protecting your right to do so is one of the reasons that I served.  You are very welcome.

and I thank you of course.. but I would argue that not putting you in harms way for no good reason is the ultimate thank you or did you miss that point?... one can still be a veteran without being sent to die or lose a leg for no reason...

the usual "we honor your service clap clap" is a cheap platitude compared to say paying for your health care needs when you return from war....

Again you are making false assumptions, many of them.

[hutch]

As a veteran I am proud to have served.  Your entire post makes one rather fallacious premise, that being that every armed conflict ever fought was for 'no good reason'.  (Not to mention the 'we can't wait to get into the next war' comment.)  You are fully entitled to hold that belief.  Protecting your right to do so is one of the reasons that I served.  You are very welcome.

and I thank you of course.. but I would argue that not putting you in harms way for no good reason is the ultimate thank you or did you miss that point?... one can still be a veteran without being sent to die or lose a leg for no reason...

the usual "we honor your service clap clap" is a cheap platitude compared to say paying for your health care needs when you return from war....

Again you are making false assumptions, many of them.

I would like to know what are these false assumptions... please tell me...cause, trust me, I want to be wrong!

[Dejecty-hatch lııllı|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

sadly even if today US stopped with the war'ing today....we'll have vets for at least another 70-80 years

[vansmack]

I've always preferred Arlo Guthrie this time of year.

[hutch]

sadly even if today US stopped with the war'ing today....we'll have vets for at least another 70-80 years

I think part of this constant "we honor them for their service and sacrifice" is just part of the pernanent war drum.....it becomes a normal cycle to have constant wars and honoring etc..surely helps people feel like the want to join the military...

Because pretty much all veterans for the past few decades have made the conscious choice to be a veteran...its a job.... this sort of seems to be forgotten..something unmentionable even...

There is a difference between someone who got drafted to fight and had no choice and someone who chooses it as a job... in so many cases the people who choose to join the military and fight in our wars are essentially people without prospects.....

But to me it seems natural to think that if the veterans, as I think we all agree, doing these terrible things for us... that cause them so many problems.... if they 're having to put their lives on the line for us... well it seems natural to ask "what can we do so less people have to do this???" And the obvious answer is "Have less wars!" Gee, you think? And yet when the war drum starts beating, as it did before the Iraq war you were branded unpatriotic for protesting the war even before it started.. I can remember the conversations on CNN of the sort "well the President has made the decision to go to war so these protesters are undermining the war and the lives of the soldiers..." In other words: "You better shut up and support the war..."....  A completely fictitious useless war... the Sunnis and Shiites are going to tear themselves apart and our effort if anything was largely detrimental to our interests anyways (ISIS -regardless of what our media wishes us to think- is nothing more than the embittered Sunnis who feeling they weren't getting anything close to a fair shake in post Saddam Iraq decided to take up arms)


These are complex issues.... but personally I don't think clapping at a baseball game and taking my hat off is really doing much for veterans....

[ggw]

What's with all the ellipses...?