Black Cat sound

[Tom Servo]

I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on the great Black Cat sound problem mystery.  After what seemed to be a good run, the latest reviews have gone downhill again.  Which one of these is the weak link?
 
 The band
 The band's equipment
 The club's equipment (speakers, board)
 The sound guy (mix)
 The listener (what sound problem?)

[kosmo vinyl]

Well not sure on this one as there was an equipment change at the Black Cat, but the sound guy and bands equipment has alot to do with it.  The sound at the Delgado's show on the Hate tour was amazing and they had string players with them, so it wasn't an house equipment issue.  But that was four or so years ago.  While a bit anemic the sound at Wolfmother was pretty good and not ear bleeding loud. For whatever reason UK soundguys tend to over compensate in the US due to having shittier equipment in the UK.  i.e. to much treble etc... Sir HC can probably offer the best explanation.

[redsock]

I think you cannot say across the board that sound is an issue at the Cat. It compeltely depends on the show, which leads me to think it is a combination of sound guy and band's equipment. Dennis, the Cat's in house sound guy always seems to do a good job IMHO.

[Darth Ed]

This is what I posted in the Camera Obscura thread:
 
 

Originally posted by Darth Ed:
 I'm starting to miss the Black Cat's old JBL speakers. The treble response of JBL is harsher, but it's also clearer. Their new(ish) speakers just sound muddier, but I'm sure you could blame the sound engineer for that just as well. The Black Cat sound quality is kind of random. Some concerts it's OK, good even, and some concerts it's bad. Tonight's wasn't the worst I've heard, but it wasn't good either. I think sometimes it depends on the microphones and amps that the bands bring. But I also suspect the Black Cat employs 2-3 house sound engineers, and it all depends on which one is working on any given night as to how good the show sounds. That's my current theory....

[helicon1]

Another point I would like to add is that, for me, it's becoming a customer service issue. As shows get more expensive, and yes, the price has gone up on average at the Black cat.. I expect basic service and that includes decent soudn. I've had many good memories and would like to keep attending, but I am thinking twice these days about going....
 
 I understand technical glitches but troubled sound seems to be becoming the norm at the cat. Juana Molina simply tapped her microphone and the feedback was deafening. I'm hoping they are just adjusting to a new system.

[Darth Ed]

Originally posted by Tom Servo:
  I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on the great Black Cat sound problem mystery.  After what seemed to be a good run, the latest reviews have gone downhill again.  Which one of these is the weak link?
 
 The band
 The band's equipment
 The club's equipment (speakers, board)
 The sound guy (mix)
 The listener (what sound problem?)

I think the band's equipment is usually the weakest link. Face it, Black Cat usually gets a lot of bands that are just starting out and they're not going to have the best microphones, amps, etc. But the sound mix can often be better as well. Sometimes the combination of an inexperienced sound engineer and poor band equipment leads to a "perfect storm" of bad sound. Even the 9:30 Club is susceptible to this on occasion.
 
 I'd love to hear Sir HC's comments on this....

[Sir HC]

Dennis' band tours a lot more now and he also is doing Fletchers so he is not there as much.
 
 From what I understand they recently upgraded the speakers to EAW 850's like the 930 has.  To be honest, I like the new room, it is much better than the old Black Cat with the sound of a friggin' hallway.  They added the damping material that makes it sound better too.  The problems are usually the engineers (with the band) as it is not the easy room the 930 is to mix in.  There is a good amount of stage/house interaction and so often the feedback is not from the monitors but the house.  You rarely if ever get that at the 930 club, only some of the waifish singers (Evenescence comes to mind) or insanely loud sound levels.  The Black Cat has more interaction, and you can get the house causing stage problems.  Also with those brick walls you have a pretty live room that needs a lot of people in it to deaden the sound to where it works (same can be said on a much smaller scale for Fletchers).  I know too that they changed the front of house console from the Soundcraft 800 that I loved (though it was huge) to, I think, a Midas one.
 
 So usually it is the engineer with the band or the band itself that is the problem with the sound at most shows.  The house guys usually know the room problems and how to deal with them but when you get some outside person mixing it can be hell as you try to help them and they don't want (or are unable to) take any advice.  
 
 Remember too that this is a live show.  There will often be problems that crop up and you try to deal with them on the fly but can not always get them rectified.  Amps blow, cables go bad, mics get bumped, in other words shit happens.  At the Black Cat (unless they have changed) they just have one engineer working, at the 930 it is two so there is someone by the stage in case something goes wrong.  Harder to do this at the Black Cat as you still have to try to mix and run on stage to put the kick drum mic back in (for example).  Can say, been there, done that, and it is hard.

[Bags]

Originally posted by Sir HC:
 Also with those brick walls you have a pretty live room that needs a lot of people in it to deaden the sound to where it works (same can be said on a much smaller scale for Fletchers).  

Initially I was going to note that I'd think it's a band/band equipment problem -- basing my conclusion on the fact that openers usually sound worse than the headliners.  My assumption is that the openers tend to be newer bands and may have less expensive equipment.
 
 Sir HC's comment is interesting, though, as it offers another reason that openers' sound may be worse.  Far fewer people in the room.
 
 Interesting...sounds like we'll never really know.  I'll continue to keep my fingers crossed that the shows I see tend toward the better end of the sound spectrum.

[Sir HC]

When you do sound check at a lot of these clubs, you feel pretty bummed because it is just this swirl of sound, mushy and indistinct.  But once the bodies get in there to suck up a lot of the echo/reverberation it sounds a lot better.  I hate when bands get off stage to hear how it sounds at sound check.  They often look scared, and heck I can't blame them, it usually sounds pretty bad with so much going on.  Remember too, beginning bands often just sound bad.  When you mix them you feel you are polishing the turd.

[redsock]

Having been on the floor for a lot of soundchecks of the same band, I can agree with what sir HC is saying, it sounds pretty damn bad, even at its best. The cat has a monitor guy as well as the sound engineer. But to be honest, the new guy doing that at the Cat doesn't seem to be so quick on the uptake if you know what i mean.

[SalParadise]

Originally posted by Sir HC:
      Also with those brick walls you have a pretty live room that needs a lot of people in it to deaden the sound to where it works (same can be said on a much smaller scale for Fletchers).  I know too that they changed the front of house console from the Soundcraft 800 that I loved (though it was huge) to, I think, a Midas one.
 

would they ever consider draping the walls? or at least putting up some of those upholstered panels up on the sides?

[Sir HC]

Originally posted by SalParadise:
   

Originally posted by Sir HC:
      Also with those brick walls you have a pretty live room that needs a lot of people in it to deaden the sound to where it works (same can be said on a much smaller scale for Fletchers).  I know too that they changed the front of house console from the Soundcraft 800 that I loved (though it was huge) to, I think, a Midas one.
 

would they ever consider draping the walls? or at least putting up some of those upholstered panels up on the sides? [/b]

I don't know.  Could, I know that they spent a lot of time to get the back section to not be the bass trap from hell (to the right when you walk in).  Problem is that it is a relatively low roof and that would be a lot to try to reign in when the bodies clean up the sound enough.
 
 Remember drapes and the like (including all that soundproofing) have to be fire resistant, and that is not cheap.
 
 Monitors is not an easy job, to me it is harder than front of house (you have to do several mixes not just one) and if you mess up then the band is peeved and then the show sucks.  If you mess up at front of house, often the band doesn't notice and so they don't get mad.  Being able to catch feedback before anyone else really hears it and hack the right frequency to get it out is an art.  And keeping the people on stage happy is even harder.  You have to watch everyone, not just the cute singer.

[anarchist]

i have only seen 3 shows with the new pa sys.  animal col,echo + rakes.  the sound is noticeably better now.  a lot of quality has to do with where you are standing.  i am not going to tell you where the best sound is because i don't want everyone heading there.  but it is not at the mix position.  another thing, i think they have the eaw cabs upside down for some reason.

[Sir HC]

I am not sure where the horns are in those EAW cabinets (though I should know), so they might be upside down but that might be necessary to get the horns in a good position.

[Fico]

As a musician I can't stress enough how good it feels to play 9:30 knowing Gus is handling the FOH and Philip or whoever else is at turn at monitors... Denis at Black Cat is great too..as a musician its pretty impossible to know what people are hearing as you get a mix for what you want on stage and don't really hear what's coming to the outside...so as a band there is usually no control over these things.
 
 I wouldn't blame equipment much..at the end of the day most bands regardless of their stature are using the standards...Fender/Gibson guitars and basses...Ampeg, Fender, Vox, amps...