930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: HoyaSaxa03 on June 18, 2010, 10:56:25 am
-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/17/AR2010061705333_pf.html
9:30 club sues over subsidies for planned Live Nation venue in Silver Spring
By Miranda S. Spivack
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 17, 2010; 7:34 PM
The owner of the District's 9:30 club is suing to prevent Maryland from giving Montgomery County $4 million to help build a music venue in downtown Silver Spring, saying government officials are hiding the project's real costs.
Live Nation, a major force in the music business with artists such as U2, Madonna and the Eagles, would rent out the venue on Colesville Road and hold rock-style concerts for about 2,000 standing patrons. Ground is expected to be broken this year on what will be known as Fillmore Silver Spring.
The lawsuit against the state, filed this week in Anne Arundel County Circuit Court by the club's parent company, IMP Inc., and that company's co-owner Seth Hurwitz, challenges the state subsidy for the project; Montgomery County is also spending $4 million in county funds. The suit says state officials would be breaking the law by paying the subsidy because Montgomery has provided only "skimpy" information about the project's costs, despite requirements by the General Assembly for more information.
"It's bad enough they're laying off teachers, cutting budgets and expecting everyone else to make sacrifices at the same time they're spending $8 million to build a rock club, but the least the government can do is follow the law in the process," Hurwitz said.
A spokesman for Montgomery County Executive Isiah Leggett (D) disputed the claims and said the county has "met the conditions" required by the General Assembly, which also has been affirmed in writing by the chairmen of the budget and appropriations committees.
Hurwitz, whose company also books acts for Merriweather Post Pavilion in Columbia and Rams Head Live in Baltimore, has questioned the deal before. He says Montgomery officials should have put the operating agreement out to bid instead of privately negotiating with Live Nation after a deal with the Alexandria-based Birchmere went sour. He also has said his company could create a music venue in Silver Spring without public funds.
The Live Nation deal, crafted by the Leggett administration, would be the first for-profit arts venue to receive direct subsidies in Montgomery.
The arrangement, approved by the County Council, compels Montgomery to absorb any cost overruns, which have occurred before in county construction of arts venues.
During the administration of County Executive Douglas M. Duncan (D), the $100 million Music Center at Strathmore was $50 million over projections; there were also overruns at the American Film Institute and the Round House Theatre, both in Silver Spring. In most instances, public funds made up the difference in the overruns for those nonprofit ventures.
In the Live Nation deal, Montgomery will own the building and rent it to Live Nation for $7,500 a month. Live Nation is to spend about $2 million outfitting the inside of the hall, and will pay for maintenance and utilities. Lee Development Group will donate the former J.C. Penney facade and land, worth about $3.5 million. The county also has promised to loosen liquor laws to allow Live Nation to serve alcohol and light fare prepared off site.
Lee Development would retain rights for more than a dozen years to build on the remainder of the property, more than twice the usual time. The developer also was allowed to count the Live Nation building as its required public space.
This week, another county-subsidized arts venue, the art deco Bethesda Theatre, foundered and was put on the auction block. It had undergone a $12 million renovation as part of a deal with Bozzuto Group, which included state and local tax breaks, and a $2 million county economic development grant that was paid through a nonprofit group.
-
Oh I just love rock-style concerts!
-
especially subsidized ones!!!
(not that i'd expect shows at this venue to be any cheaper than elsewhere)
-
stop whining.
-
This has been brought up before but LN have to have donated a handsome amount to Leggett's last campaign.
-
Didn't Live Nation run Rams Head in Baltimore for a while? How did that work out? 7500 dollars a month for a venue that size seems pretty cheap. While it sucks for the 930 club that they (LN) are getting this sweatheart of a deal I don't think they are going to be able to stop it from getting built.
-
dosen't leggett have 4 secuirty guards that make $!00,000 a year a piece? unfortunately this is business as usual for local and state gov't. they woo corps with tax breaks and other incentives. $4m is nothing.
-
let's see . . . a larger, "better" venue that will be able to attract (i mean force) bigger acts as well as the normal mixture rotation and will have an appealing parking situation as well as be in a neighborhood/area that could more than likely not get you shot at on any given, early evening as well as attracting a more (where more is the key word) diverse crowd who normally would not want to travel into dc . . . than yeah, if i were seth i'd be fighting it all the way to the stiffest arm of the competition.
-
let's see . . . a larger, "better" venue that will be able to attract (i mean force) bigger acts as well as the normal mixture rotation and will have an appealing parking situation as well as be in a neighborhood/area that could more than likely not get you shot at on any given, early evening as well as attracting a more (where more is the key word) diverse crowd who normally would not want to travel into dc . . . than yeah, if i were seth i'd be fighting it all the way to the stiffest arm of the competition.
I agree!
Sad thing is I wish this Silver Spring LN venue would open yesterday! What do I care about the taxpayers of Silver Spring? If they don't care.....
The area needs a venue like the Fillmore and IMP won't build it cause they prefer to keep booking shows at DAR..
-
dar isnt that bad. the seats could use some major upgrading and it would be nice if you were allowed to eat/drink in the hall. would also help if they had multiple concession stands.
if someone did build a build something like fillmore, where in the city would it go?
-
It's kind of puzzling why this is getting subsidized. It's not like Silver Spring is a depressed neighborhood in need of life support. This is a pretty good example of how subsidies to some businesses hurt other ones that have built themselves on hard work alone... Seth is right to sue.
-
^ Doomie, I am with you 100%!!! That means I'm 100% with you too Seth.
You can argue all you want about whether this is more of a business move for Seth; and I have no doubt, as a good business man, that is, in part, the case; but there is definitely much, much more involved with this than Seth's pockets. It's also about the citizens and tax payers pockets!
Whomever said above that they couldn't care less about the tax payers is yet another example of that appalling narcissism of so many that allows for so many of our corrupt leaders to continue to use and abuse we, the citizens and tax payers, to their advantage. The very same frozen souls who, while walking down the street and see poor Walkie getting shot, will totally ignore what's happening and just move on. Who cares? It's not 'their' life! Absolutely disgusting! If they do it so easily to one county, they will have no problems pulling some similiar scam on another. If your neighbors have roaches, they are bound to find their way into your home. Very same with dirty politicians and the kinds of tricks they have up their sleeves that go deep within our pockets.
I'm all for the Arts but, let's fact it, this isn't about the Arts. This is some sleazy lovefest between Leggett and Live Nation and we, the public, are the ones getting screwed.
-
haha, I like how you are able to throw a walky reference into your argument ;D
-
let's see . . . a larger, "better" venue that will be able to attract (i mean force) bigger acts as well as the normal mixture rotation and will have an appealing parking situation as well as be in a neighborhood/area that could more than likely not get you shot at on any given, early evening as well as attracting a more (where more is the key word) diverse crowd who normally would not want to travel into dc . . . than yeah, if i were seth i'd be fighting it all the way to the stiffest arm of the competition.
I agree!
Sad thing is I wish this Silver Spring LN venue would open yesterday! What do I care about the taxpayers of Silver Spring? If they don't care.....
The area needs a venue like the Fillmore and IMP won't build it cause they prefer to keep booking shows at DAR..
I would much rather see a band at DAR than the Fillmore. I just wish IMP would go back to booking acts at Warner which was a great place to see bands.
-
Jaguar,
First of all your post is very insulting.. you ought to tone it down a notch buddy or stay off the sauce.
I'm sorry but in a democracy the local residents elect their local government and it decides what they want to do.. if they want to bring in the Fillmore and give the company a subsidy thats their prerogative
The idea that Seth is battling Live Nation on behalf of taxpayers is utterly laughable. This is the same Seth who runs around quoting Ayn Rand left and right
He is basically saying he wants a level playing field and I respect that but at the same time as a concertgoer who feels DC is lacking a midsized rock concert venue I want the venue and if IMP will not build it and somebody else wants to I'm fine with that..
Lets keep things in perspective, if Silver Spring wants a rock venue and they make a deal on the side its not the first time this has happened...
Where is Seth's outrage about numerous subsidies? I don't see him suing over Bens CHili Bown subsidies which have been sizable, etc. What about the Lincoln Theatre? He doesn't sue about that.. no, he's actually happy to book shows there- a venue that arguably would not exist where it not for subsidies. I could come up with dozens of examples.
Ultimately, IMP wants to prevent the FIllmore from opening as long as possible- thats what this is all about and not about the taxpayers...
As a consumer of live concerts I want the FIllmore to open... I assume the residents of Silver Spring can run their own affairs.
Of course I think Seth has every right to sue but lets not kid ourselves as to the motive
-
let's see . . . a larger, "better" venue that will be able to attract (i mean force) bigger acts as well as the normal mixture rotation and will have an appealing parking situation as well as be in a neighborhood/area that could more than likely not get you shot at on any given, early evening as well as attracting a more (where more is the key word) diverse crowd who normally would not want to travel into dc . . . than yeah, if i were seth i'd be fighting it all the way to the stiffest arm of the competition.
I agree!
Sad thing is I wish this Silver Spring LN venue would open yesterday! What do I care about the taxpayers of Silver Spring? If they don't care.....
The area needs a venue like the Fillmore and IMP won't build it cause they prefer to keep booking shows at DAR..
I would much rather see a band at DAR than the Fillmore. I just wish IMP would go back to booking acts at Warner which was a great place to see bands.
Well, I assume SOUND Is not important to you then... I have trouble relating to someone who doesn't prioritize quality of sound when it comes to concerts but there's all kinds of people out there and everyone is entitled to their opinion. DAR is not a concerthall and has substandard sound and sight lines for most people.
-
Jaguar,
Of course I think Seth has every right to sue but lets not kid ourselves as to the motive
So he can keep charging 7 bucks for a Miller Light?
I have heard say he has kept bands from playing Baltimore. Which I think is BS. They are seperate markets. And bands who play the 930 club should be able to play Baltimore as well. I guess now that they are booking bands at Rams Head less of this is happening but there are still bands that could play Baltimore and play the 930 club and not Baltmore. I assume this Seth keeping them out?
-
live nation owns warner(?)
-
let's see . . . a larger, "better" venue that will be able to attract (i mean force) bigger acts as well as the normal mixture rotation and will have an appealing parking situation as well as be in a neighborhood/area that could more than likely not get you shot at on any given, early evening as well as attracting a more (where more is the key word) diverse crowd who normally would not want to travel into dc . . . than yeah, if i were seth i'd be fighting it all the way to the stiffest arm of the competition.
I agree!
Sad thing is I wish this Silver Spring LN venue would open yesterday! What do I care about the taxpayers of Silver Spring? If they don't care.....
The area needs a venue like the Fillmore and IMP won't build it cause they prefer to keep booking shows at DAR..
I would much rather see a band at DAR than the Fillmore. I just wish IMP would go back to booking acts at Warner which was a great place to see bands.
Well, I assume SOUND Is not important to you then... I have trouble relating to someone who doesn't prioritize quality of sound when it comes to concerts but there's all kinds of people out there and everyone is entitled to their opinion. DAR is not a concerthall and has substandard sound and sight lines for most people.
sightlines are better at dar than they are at filmore...especially if you are short
-
Everyone seems to have missed what I think is the biggest point:
The county/state will cover all cost overruns. Looking at past projects, this could be quite a large number. Is Strathmore cost $150 million, $50 million over, how do we feel that they got the costs right on this one? $4 million seems low for renovations and building up, I could see it shoot up, and as a Maryland taxpayer, I might well have to pay.
-
Of course I agree the city of Silver Spring should have better things to spend their money on than the Fillmore.
But its pure malarkey that Seth or IMP are suing for any reason other than their own bottom dollar.
As a consumer I'm pretty sure I'd benefit from the Fillmore (more choice, more venues, more acts hitting DC that Live Nation can't fit into the Warner, DAR or Jiffy LUbe, etc) and I want to see it built..
Tax dollars are so often wasted on things that don't benefit me.. I mean so the Nats stadium was a huge waste of money..but guess what? I like baseball and I enjoy seeing the Nats for $5..
If we're going to really get into how our tax dollars are spent there are plenty of worse things - for me- than a concert venue where I could rock out..
AND nothing stops Seth from putting his IMP money where his mouth is and building the venue without the subsidies..I would applaud that..
-
He has said repeatedly that he has offered the county to build it completely out of pocket and was turned down. The fact of the matter is this venue was not thrown out there for bids and was simply handed over to Live Nation after the Birchmere deal went south.
Shady deal that needs more examination if you ask me. And accusing him of quoting Ayn Rand and not doing so to ridicule her is a serious charge that needs linkage.
AND nothing stops Seth from putting his IMP money where his mouth is and building the venue without the subsidies..I would applaud that..
-
Gd bless the 9:30 club.
The fillmore deal is a gross perversion of capitalism and democracy. A monopolistic corporation supports a county executive who in turn provides millions plus a sweetheart lease so monopolistic corp can open dubious rock and roll style club in suburb better suited to supporting red lobster and macaroni grill? Fuck that shit. This is suppossed to be a capitalist society. If club can survive in that dead part of the universe let a business be on the hook. That's what capitalism is supposed to be. For govt to finance it in exchange for campaign funds is utter bullshit. If you disagree you are part of the problem.*
* And by 'part of the problem' I mean you are a wannabe frontrunner who is able to be manipulated to believe that oligapolies and rigged systems are actually capitalism/democracy and therefore play into the hands of those who want to rig the system
-
I don't know what all of you do for a living, but how would you feel if you worked hard for 30 years, never took a penny from the government, and now the government was going to subsidize someone trying to put you out of business?
I will cry foul every time I see it, at every turn. Ask the Birchmere, Black Cat, Wolf Trap, or any of my honest competitors if I have ever done anything to fuck with them.
Questioning my motives is not dealing with the issues...like pointing at a coach that's thrown a red flag and saying "hey, he's just trying to win, so who cares about that foul!"
-
Hahaha!!! I should have known that it was ol' Mr. Natural pissing all over the tax payers! On top of that, accussing me of what he himself is so notoriously infamous for!
Btw Mr. Natural, admittedly, I don't recall exactly, but I don't think that the citizens even had a chance to vote on this. Seems there was some sort of town meeting with lots of outrage and some support but, as corrupt politicans always do, they used it to let the people vent assuming they would forget about it in the morning and then he went on his merry way of continuing to rape and pillage his very own county and anyone else who comes in contact with them.
@Mobius - Good post!
Your's too, Sir HC.
-
Live Nation could make this controversy go away by giving taxpayers 100,000 $40 tickets. That's just 50 sold-out shows by artists worth a $40 ticket. See, all better now!
-
I don't know what all of you do for a living, but how would you feel if you worked hard for 30 years, never took a penny from the government, and now the government was going to subsidize someone trying to put you out of business?
I will cry foul every time I see it, at every turn. Ask the Birchmere, Black Cat, Wolf Trap, or any of my honest competitors if I have ever done anything to fuck with them.
Questioning my motives is not dealing with the issues...like pointing at a coach that's thrown a red flag and saying "hey, he's just trying to win, so who cares about that foul!"
welcome . . . to . . . america. where have you been living?
-
I don't know what all of you do for a living, but how would you feel if you worked hard for 30 years, never took a penny from the government, and now the government was going to subsidize someone trying to put you out of business?
How are they gonna put you out of business?
-
Have IMP thought about snagging the Bethesda Theater Cafe which is going up for sale next week? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/16/AR2010061605100.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/16/AR2010061605100.html)
Not sure what the capacity would be (with those tables taken out) or the zoning, however I know they did have live music back in the late 1980s
-
1st and to be clear: God Bless the 930. Thank you Seth and thank you IMP. As someone said at the 930 30th bash "Its hard to imagine DC without the 930." My better half will be there tonight groovin' to the Goldfrapp. I love the place.
But this whole "capitalism needs to be fair" is beyond ridiculous... Capitalism is not a sport Seth.
Of course there should not be subsidies in this case UNLESS the city of SIlver SPring or whatever it is can demonstrate that the benefits to the city will outweigh the subsidy...They presumably have to do this to their citizens (voters) or they will be run out of office..My understanding is this is all a part of their "redevelop downtown silver spring" project and woul dhave a some benefits for Silver SPring..regardlessw, of course they should have bid it out.. Just as Mayor Fenty should not hook up his crony friends with contracts or Sheila Dixon shouldn't use money for education to buy herself clothes... There are a lot bigger things to get outraged about in terms of local government than a subsidy for a popular arts venue 30-45 minutes away from the 930.
BUT the idea that capitalism is always fair... this Ayn Rand third grade philosophy about survival of the fittest in a pure competition model is beyond simplistic. This "textbook capitalism" is just not the way the world works. I read Lefsetz too btw.
Again Seth, are you against the city of DC subsidizing the Lincoln Theatre? Why not express your outrage and refuse to book at the place? Oh, because they don't directly compete with you? Are you against subsidizing Ben's Chili Bown in spite of its historic nature? Why have their 50th party at the 930 then? WHat about the guy who is trying to compete with Ben's? Are you suing on his behalf? (Note: I am not saying I am for or against any subsidy) What about the Howard Theater?
Governmments make decisions every day about where to spend citizen's dollars... if the citizens of Silver Spring think its so teririble they'll vote the bums out of office...Apparently they do not.
Seth and IMP look at it from their bottom dollar perspective..thats understandable.. IF this venue is ever built it will put Live Nation in a position to finally take it to the 930 in the DC market.. The 930 can't help but be against this and it just doesn't pass the smell test for them to say "yes, it would benefit us if this venue was never built but thats not why were' against it.. its just plain wrong thats why we are against it!"
But I don't work for IMP and am not in Justin Jones and Driving Rain and I look at it from MY perspective and I think from my perspective I have to say the 930 could use a little competition and the area could use a bigger music (i.e., not DAR) venue. It has been my hope for many years that IMP would build a bigger venue.. they have not done that and what they are saying is essentially "lets keep things as is.." while we continue to book a substandard venue (DAR) for our bigger shows in DC (not talkin' about Merriweather). Thats not realistic because the market has changed. If the Fillmore does not get built in Silver Spring it will probably be built somewhere else anyways..
My unsolicited and admittedly probably uninformed advise to Seth is put your money where your mouth is... there is demand .... meet with the DC city council people and tell them you are serious about building a bigger music venue in DC... I would not be surprised if this has already happened. The demand is there and if its not Live Nation somebody else will build it eventually... I seem to recall reading about Madison Square Garden people wanting to come to DC (arguably to build a bigger venue)
-
Ayn Rand is an idiot thought profound by parents'-basement-dwellers everywhere, I don't know why she's creeping into this discussion amongst intelligent people...
the bottom line is that this deal seems questionable on many fronts (as do many government subsidies for private business). If this were put to a referendum for the residents of Silver Spring, would they approve it? I don't think so.
Suing is a reasonable business reaction to an inappropriate and potentially damaging action.
-
There are a lot bigger things to get outraged about in terms of local government than a subsidy for a popular arts venue 30-45 minutes away from the 930.
its only 6 miles
-
Ayn Rand is an idiot thought profound by parents'-basement-dwellers everywhere, I don't know why she's creeping into this discussion amongst intelligent people...
the bottom line is that this deal seems questionable on many fronts (as do many government subsidies for private business). If this were put to a referendum for the residents of Silver Spring, would they approve it? I don't think so.
Suing is a reasonable business reaction to an inappropriate and potentially damaging action.
I agree Doctor Doom. The reason I mentioned Ayn Rand is because of this quote from Seth Hurwitz on June 9 of this year on the Lefsetz Newsletter:
"let me make something perfectly clear to anyone who hasn't read Ayn Rand:
I AM A CAPITALIST...I AM TRYING TO MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AT THIS AS I CAN"
-
I figured it was closer than 30-45 minutes away.
Maybe Hutch rides a burro around town. If so, that is kind of awesome.
Fixed before the spelling and grammar police got to it!
-
I figured it was closer than 30-45 minutes away.
Maybe Hutch rides a burro around town. If so, that is kind of awesome.
I would assume that is how long it takes him once he leaves his humble abode and takes the Metro up to Silver Spring. After all, we all know that that is, in fact, the official exact center of the Natural universe.
Edit: Fixed Az's post because I'm in collusion with him. ;)
-
I figured it was closer than 30-45 minutes away.
Maybe Hutch rides a burrow around town. If so, that is kind of awesome.
I would assume that is how long it takes him once he leaves his humble abode and takes the Metro up to Silver Spring. After all, we all know that that is in fact the official exact center of the universe.
Well I live by the 930 so yes I think it takes 30-45 minutes when all is said and done to metro up there..
NO car and no burro sorry to say.
-
You'd think with all the money Hutch has saved by NOT going to mid-size venue shows, he could have afforded a car AND a burro by now.
-
There are a lot bigger things to get outraged about in terms of local government than a subsidy for a popular arts venue 30-45 minutes away from the 930.
its only 6 miles
Yeah and it takes 30 to 45 minutes to drive those 6 miles. I don't think this is going to register on anyones radar. Look how much money they spent on the Baseball Stadium in DC.
Also, I don't know why anyone want to be in a club bigger than 930 club. I think the 930 club is too big as it is. Really anything larger than the Black Cat in size should be a seated venue with stadium seating.
-
Ayn Rand is an idiot thought profound by parents'-basement-dwellers everywhere, I don't know why she's creeping into this discussion amongst intelligent people...
the bottom line is that this deal seems questionable on many fronts (as do many government subsidies for private business). If this were put to a referendum for the residents of Silver Spring, would they approve it? I don't think so.
Suing is a reasonable business reaction to an inappropriate and potentially damaging action.
I agree Doctor Doom. The reason I mentioned Ayn Rand is because of this quote from Seth Hurwitz on June 9 of this year on the Lefsetz Newsletter:
"let me make something perfectly clear to anyone who hasn't read Ayn Rand:
I AM A CAPITALIST...I AM TRYING TO MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AT THIS AS I CAN"
Looks like Seth can't win. He's not running a charity or some non-profit, you know.
Now if Mr. Natural straps up his burro and goes around the city selling cucumbers, I guess it would be for kicks or something other than 'trying to make the most money that he can'. Just wait until he finds out that the tax money he's collected to pay off the man is then going straight into the pockets of Hans across the street to sell cucumbers to the same people. Plus, Hans isn't paying to feed and shelter his burro. Mr. Natural's Cucumber business and the good citizens are. But Mr. Natural better still come up with all of his taxes, fees, etc., while paying for every aspect of his business on his own. And if he dare complains, he'll be taken down by those who think that he has no right to do so.
-
(http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/45000/Mr-Natural-Takes-a-Drive--45493.jpg)
Mr. Natural driving at top speed to make it to Silver Spring hoping to get there in time to see the opener.
-
A great way for Seth to make more money: Sell tacos.
-
not tacos, burritos.
burrito: small burro...
are burritos made of burro?!?
is that why they're so delicious?!?
-
A great way for Seth to make more money: Sell tacos.
An even better way would be to sell pot sweets only to people who would order them a certain way which was discussed in an earlier thread.
Imagine how much you could charge for a space cupcake.
-
^ We also discussed other options such as Space Copter Tacos.
Something for everyone of all tastes. I'd be more than happy to help out with a few recipes, both creating and testing. ;D
Same time (9:30), another space.
-
Someday
-
dc needs a bigger venue than 930? what about gaston hall? mcdonough gym? smith center? bender arena? crampton auditorium? ritchie coliseum? dc armory? lisner? strathmore? how often are you going to use a new venue of that size? once a week? how often are there shows at dar or warner? dc ain't nyc.
-
are we all going to have a get together at this new venue? ;D
-
'JA' thread posts for this venue should be yanked and those who post them should be banned.
-
all successful businesses are owned by rapacious businesspeople.... even those with lovey/dovey hippie facades. In fact, those are the worst because they're all "ommm" while at the same time figuring out the best way to stick it to someone before it gets stuck to them. Just look at Steve Jobs, he's all new-agey with his turtlenecks but if you find the next generation Iphone in a bar, he'll have a SWAT team kicking your door in. You have to be like that just to survive let alone get ahead.
So yeah, cringe-inducing public Ayn Rand invocations aside, Seth is well within his rights... it would be foolish not to sue.
-
Look at Ramshead Live. That is a 2k place, and it is often very "unfull".
-
Look at Ramshead Live. That is a 2k place, and it is often very "unfull".
I live in Baltimore and I hate Ramshead. Worst place to see a show anywhere. Bad sight lines and too freaking crowded. They make you wait in line until well after the opener starts. I haven't gone in two years. I will be seeing Dead Weather there so hopefully it has improved. Really that placed makes me angry just thinking about it.
-
Look at Ramshead Live. That is a 2k place, and it is often very "unfull".
I live in Baltimore and I hate Ramshead. Worst place to see a show anywhere. Bad sight lines and too freaking crowded. They make you wait in line until well after the opener starts. I haven't gone in two years. I will be seeing Dead Weather there so hopefully it has improved. Really that placed makes me angry just thinking about it.
Somewhat better, I was just there for a couple shows, and while it is still annoying on the floor that the right flown PA is not audiable, the overall experience has improved, even for sold out shows.
-
great just great.
;D
-
I would think if you're the typre of person who likes to tuck his shirt into his pleated chinos on the weekend and you're looking forward to reading a jack welch on business book at the beach this summer you could get behind ike legett and live nations visionary business synergies. And you would be wrong.
-
But this whole "capitalism needs to be fair" is beyond ridiculous... Capitalism is not a sport Seth.
Of course there should not be subsidies in this case UNLESS the city of SIlver SPring or whatever it is can demonstrate that the benefits to the city will outweigh the subsidy...They presumably have to do this to their citizens (voters) or they will be run out of office.
Again Seth, are you against the city of DC subsidizing the Lincoln Theatre? Why not express your outrage and refuse to book at the place? Oh, because they don't directly compete with you? Are you against subsidizing Ben's Chili Bown in spite of its historic nature? Why have their 50th party at the 930 then? WHat about the guy who is trying to compete with Ben's? Are you suing on his behalf? (Note: I am not saying I am for or against any subsidy) What about the Howard Theater?
My job is to advocate for competitive markets for a particular industry. It is not capitalism, or competition, if the playing field is not level. That is what Seth is suing over, and I believe he's right to do so. A full, open RFP to assess the true costs of each project is reasonable and should be required. Yes, of course competition is never in a pure state, but there are certain basic elements that should be assumed -- a fair, transparent bidding process, for instance.
It's a deflection to call Seth out for not opposing subsidies for other entities. It's not his job to try to make the entire world safe for competition, but it makes sense to do so for that part of the world in which he works every day and has invested 30 years of dedication. Sure it helps to keep LN in particular from building the Fillmore -- not only for the subsidies, but because they are a national monopoly -- both a vertical and horizontal monopoly -- that exert their market power at every turn. In this sitch, it's the subsidies that Seth can go after legally and, I believe, rightly.
That it is politicians who are voted in to office making these decisions is no excuse -- I would bet big that 99.5% of the voters in Silver Spring are not voting based on how the Fillmore is being handled, but a whole host of other issues that are important to their daily lives. Ditto that it is not the Fillmore that causes citizens to exclaim, "we have to throw these bums out!" Well, until the project runs $25 million over budget and the city is responsible, but then it will be too late and any action or vote would be ex post, and useless.
-
And I would think you're the type of 40 year old dork who runs around wearing a mohawk and an Exploited t-shirt. :D
I would think if you're the typre of person who likes to tuck his shirt into his pleated chinos on the weekend and you're looking forward to reading a jack welch on business book at the beach this summer you could get behind ike legett and live nations visionary business synergies. And you would be wrong.
-
Consequence of Sound...
http://consequenceofsound.net/2010/06/25/930-club-sues-state-of-maryland-over-live-nation-deal/
-
Illinois states attorney is looking into sueing Lollapalooza over anti-trust violations over its radius clause. This is potentially something that could be brought against the 930 club because it keeps bands out of Baltimore using the same thing.
I think that has a much more realistic chance of results coming out of it.
-
Doubtful
because if you read this story you'll see it's a standard practice, it's just more aggressive than usual on the part of the lollapalooza organizers.
http://blogs.vocalo.org/jderogatis/2010/06/breaking-illinois-attorney-general-investigating-lollapalooza-for-anti-trust/27523
-
And I would think you're the type of 40 year old dork who runs around wearing a mohawk and an Exploited t-shirt. :D
I would think if you're the typre of person who likes to tuck his shirt into his pleated chinos on the weekend and you're looking forward to reading a jack welch on business book at the beach this summer you could get behind ike legett and live nations visionary business synergies. And you would be wrong.
LOL to both these posts :D
-
From the real estate blog DCMud:
http://dcmud.blogspot.com/2010/07/baby-steps-made-but-fight-for-fillmore.html
Baby Steps Made, But Fight for Fillmore Music Hall Still Uphill Battle
Posted by Brooks Butler Hays on 7/16/2010 06:58:00 PM
Early last month the Montgomery County Planning Board approved preliminary plans for the Fillmore Music Hall and accompanying hotel and office buildings to built in Silver Spring; and just yesterday the Board gave a big thumbs up to the development team's most recent master plan and official plat. But a project that began in a buzz of ho-hum, high-fiving excitement has been slowed by lagging negotiations, and now a lawsuit filed recently by the owner of the 930 Clubthreatens to cast a dark cloud on groundbreaking celebrations set for later this fall.
The recently approved master plan roughly details the impending construction of a 135,300 s.f., 14-story hotel, a 12-story office building (5,500 s.f. reserved for retail use), and a 22,882 s.f., three-story music hall integrating the historic JC Penney facade and sides. The plan also calls for significant improvement to portions of the sidewalk and three street frontages.
Designers claim that the aesthetics of the planned structure fit with the surrounding buildings: standing mostly square, with no tower setbacks or height variance, and no significant differentiation of design or materials above the lower levels. The facade of the planned hotel reflects the fenestration and style typical of the era during which the adjacent Montgomery Arms apartment building was constructed. The JC Penney frontage, soon to be face of the Fillmore Music Hall, will be renovated in hopes of imitating the original San Francisco-based Fillmore West. Sporting dark red walls, vintage rock posters, and crystal chandeliers, the interior will also recall the first Fillmore, with the ability to house a standing room capacity of 2000 people.Hickok Cole Architects will design the new venue, along with the planned hotel and commercial buildings at Georgia Avenue.
The less daunting of the projects, the Fillmore Music Hall, will be constructed first. Upon completion of the building, the land and Music Hall will be donated to the County. Thispeculiar arrangement was part of the negotiationsbetween the County andLee Development Group (LDG) that made this entire $110 million redevelopment project possible. LDG's donation of the Music Hall will qualify as their public-space contribution required for their adjoining hotel and office space project. But the Fillmore Music Hall and its accompanying land (worth $3.5 million) hardly seems like a donation when Montgomery County and the state of Maryland have each agreed to subsidize the project to the tune of four million dollars, leaving LDG to foot only the remaining two of the ten million dollar budget. The transaction will afford LDG 15 years to complete the bordering project under current land use regulations, thereby protecting them from any financial complications or delays that may arise from future zoning rule changes or planning officials' interference. Once in the hands of Montgomery County, the Fillmore will be rented out to worldwide concert promoters and corporate entertainment giant Live Nation (their recent proposed merger with Ticket-master is currently stalled by anti-trust concerns). In 2008 Live Nation signed a $3.26 million, 20-year lease with the County, ending a tiresome six year negotiation process. Drawn out discussions with the Birchmere had previously unraveled.
All this might sound dandy to local concert goers, butSeth Hurwitz and his Bethesda-based companyI.M.G., Inc, which owns the 930 Club and operatesMerriweather Post Pavilion, finds the deal too sweet to be fair. Seemingly threatened by the new competition, and disenfranchised that he was not involved in negotiations for the lease of the new venue, Hurwitz has filed a lawsuit against the state alleging that the proper procedures for conducting financial feasibility and cost analysis studies, as required prior to allocation of funds, were not followed. The State and County believe they've done all that is required, but have not officially responded to the lawsuit. Until the lawsuit plays out, the state of Maryland is prohibited from matching the County's four million dollar pledge, but officials still expect ground to break later this fall, and to open the doors of the Fillmore in the fall of 2011. Local officials contend that the new development will not only be a tremendous new source of tax revenue and profits, as well as provide job creation, but also establish Silver Spring (with the AFI Theater right down the street) as a go-to destination for music, arts, and entertainment.
-
it is a 20 yr lease, 930 could take over the lease in 2031. if you get too f'd up, you can stay at the hotel next door.
-
I love the biased tone of that blog post...
, high-fiving excitement has been slowed by lagging negotiations, and now a lawsuit filed recently by the owner of the 930 Club threatens to cast a dark cloud on groundbreaking celebrations set for later this fall.
-
Does anyone think maybe it's not such a bad thing that there will be a music venue not run by the 930 club in this area? I just don't get the complaining.
people will still go to the 930 club. Because it is awesome.
-
Does anyone think maybe it's not such a bad thing that there will be a music venue not run by the 930 club in this area? I just don't get the complaining.
people will still go to the 930 club. Because it is awesome.
People are mad because the new building will be heavily subsidized and it is obviously a pet project of some politicians.
I think Seth has a right to try to block the building; it's not fair to the 930 club.
-
But it's Montgomery County. Isn't everything there like that?
-
Precisely. It's more the shady dealings that helped LN gain this contract and the subsidies moreso than anything else. Plus, Seth lives in Montgomery County which means his tax dollars are going directly towards this project and there's nothing he can do about it short of this suit.
-
Pretty sure this is the first for-profit venture of it's kind that has gotten free money from the government in Montgomery County.
But it's Montgomery County. Isn't everything there like that?
-
let me make myself very clear on all of this:
I am not trying to stop anyone from building a venue
I am trying to stop the government from subsidizing it
-
I like how Sethy uses double space ;D
-
Gotcha. Point taken and agreed. Thanks for clearing that up.
-
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/artsdesk/music/2011/07/22/the-live-nationi-m-p-wars-are-not-over/
-
It's awesome how they filled in subtle character features of the front. Its gonna be such a great generic venue
-
If you are all so against this....DON'T GO TO SEE SHOWS THERE...
It's not that difficult people.
I have no doubt there's some backroom shennanigans gone on to put this deal together, but politicians are crooks...always have been, always will be. None of us will ever change that so whats the point in whining and complaining about the deal while online looking for the best seats available?
As for Seth - good for him, but I hope he's not wasting time while making his lawyers next 24 boat payments for him...which I'm afraid he probably is.
-
Unless Queens of the Stone Age or the Pixies play there, you can't drag me over there. Although I'm curious about the space, this venue already strikes me as the kind of place the Bayou became towards the end of its life.
-
is it me . . . or does this look like a place that will be a pain in the ass to get to for people like me (who live in virginia) who will have to go all the way around dc to get there? great, i'll leave the day before the show just to get there on time.
-
it's revenge for the patriot center being in bumf*ck, VA.
-
this is true..its going to be a real bitch to get there from arlington.. i'd probably recommend going into dc and taking 16th st north...
not a fun drive though...
-
is it me . . . or does this look like a place that will be a pain in the ass to get to for people like me (who live in virginia) who will have to go all the way around dc to get there? great, i'll leave the day before the show just to get there on time.
495 goes all the way around DC ya know.
Driving from where I live [Around the Mixing Bowl area] to Silver Spring takes about 30 minutes. Driving from there up 395 to 930 and parking takes about 30 minutes. I guess I won't bitch and think it's fine because I also drive to DC every week and drive to Baltimore almost every other week so I'm used to that commute to go to shows and what not. It's really not that bad...
-
this is true..its going to be a real bitch to get there from arlington.. i'd probably recommend going into dc and taking 16th st north...
not a fun drive though...
Don't go through town to get there...mad traffic. Through town going home late at night is fine though.
From Arlington:
GW parkway south > 495 > colesville rd or Georgia ave exit.
I don't understand all the talk about this. Not that bad of a drive at all from anywhere inside the beltway really.
-
this is true..its going to be a real bitch to get there from arlington.. i'd probably recommend going into dc and taking 16th st north...
not a fun drive though...
Don't go through town to get there...mad traffic. Through town going home late at night is fine though.
From Arlington:
GW parkway south > 495 > colesville rd or Georgia ave exit.
I don't understand all the talk about this. Not that bad of a drive at all from anywhere inside the beltway really.
driving on 495 during rush hour, in my experience, is not a good time.. . and remember shows will start fairly early so people can catch the 11 or 11:20 train.. so you'd have to drive through rush hour..
i guess i'll try both and see... i could see 495 being better so i guess you're right
-
driving on 495 during rush hour, in my experience, is not a good time.. . and remember shows will start fairly early so people can catch the 11 or 11:20 train.. so you'd have to drive through rush hour..
i guess i'll try both and see... i could see 495 being better so i guess you're right
this. there is no easy way to get from MD to VA, and vice-versa, during rush hour (and forget about making the drive on friday evenings). i have to do this commute when i go in to the office. it sucks. week-night shows at the patriot center are tough for me. it'll be the same for VA'ers going to the FSS - do-able but requires planning (aka traveling early).
on the upside, unlike the patriot, the FSS is on metro. i'm assuming they'll lobby to change metro's schedule a bit: currently if you catch the last train in to DC on weekdays (11:43), you arrive at the same time as the last orange line to VA is leaving (12:06). to safely make the transfer, one would have to get the 11:29 in SS. then again, shows should be well over by 11 if the FSS keeps the same hours as the rest of silver spring, ;D
-
i'm assuming they'll lobby to change metro's schedule a bit
F U
Sincerely,
All the assholes who told me to quit fucking complaining about the Velvet Lounge letting acts run late.
-
The last couple times I was at Velvet, they were done at more reasonable hours.
If you wanna bitch about Velvet, bitch about their letting horrible bro-tastic DJ's spin loud garbage downstairs while quieter acts are playing upstairs.
-
i'm assuming they'll lobby to change metro's schedule a bit
F U
Sincerely,
All the assholes who told me to quit fucking complaining about the Velvet Lounge letting acts run late.
LOL!!! A venue should change their schedule due to the metro system?? Laughable!
-
i'm assuming they'll lobby to change metro's schedule a bit
F U
Sincerely,
All the assholes who told me to quit fucking complaining about the Velvet Lounge letting acts run late.
if the FSS has the pull to get MoCo to fork over $4m, they can probably get metro to change its schedule by a few minutes. VL doesn't have that kind of clout.
and you're still a pussy for complaining about how late the velvet runs. sorry you missed your curfew.
-
if the FSS has the pull to get MoCo to fork over $4m, they can probably get metro to change its schedule by a few minutes. VL doesn't have that kind of clout.
and you're still a pussy for complaining about how late the velvet runs. sorry you missed your curfew.
It is obviously advantageous financially for venues to have shows that are accessible by Metro time-wise.
-
I'm actually kind of hesitant about this venue.... I definitely agree that the area needed another venue for "bigger than 930" shows, because I cannot stand DAR..... the sound is horrible there, and that is my main consideration..... which is one reason why I much prefer the 930, typically the sound is pretty stellar there, and I don't think I've ever been to a good sounding show at Rams Head Live..... but I'm waiting to see just how accessible the new place is both getting there and getting out of there..... I don't know the area the Fillmore is at, so I don't know if the parking is going to be "on street" or a bunch of parking garages..... B-more is pretty much all parking garages and it can take forever to get out of one when leaving a show there.... coming from Naptown, I'm pretty much going to HAVE to go 50-495, and that can be a nightmare during rush hour.... shoot, it can be a nightmare anytime, day or night.... I'm not sure that the Metro is realistic for me, I'd have to get on the Orange Line, travel into DC, then change trains and head back out.... so, short story long, I think I'm going to wait awhile and see the reports from folks that have been there once it opens.....
-
there is street parking near Rams Head Live.
-
There are several FREE parking garages near FSS. There's street parking nearby. There's a Metro within walking distance. There's bus access. It's just inside the beltway, with multiple access routes. It's no more difficult to get to than any other venue at rush hour. I don't see what the fuss is all about.
-
There are several FREE parking garages near FSS. There's street parking nearby. There's a Metro within walking distance. There's bus access. It's just inside the beltway, with multiple access routes. It's no more difficult to get to than any other venue at rush hour. I don't see what the fuss is all about.
It's actually easier to find parking in down town Silver Spring than U Street... Plus, your car won't get broken into.
-
So, anybody want to go place a bag of flaming poo on the front steps of this shithole?
-
Why, what did they do to me?
Sorry, i'm not a 13 year old boy. ;)
So, anybody want to go place a bag of flaming poo on the front steps of this shithole?
-
There are several FREE parking garages near FSS. There's street parking nearby. There's a Metro within walking distance. There's bus access. It's just inside the beltway, with multiple access routes. It's no more difficult to get to than any other venue at rush hour. I don't see what the fuss is all about.
It's actually easier to find parking in down town Silver Spring than U Street... Plus, your car won't get broken into.
well, I guess that's good news at least, I honestly know very little about that part of town, so thanks for that info.... it's still going to be a huge PITA for me to get to, I bet..... the 930 is actually pretty easy for me..... Rt 50 (against the flow of rush hour) to NY Ave ( which I guess can be a pain right now with the construction going on right now) to Fla. Ave to the club...... to get to the new venue, it means 10-11 miles on 495 North during rush hour, a drive I haven't had to make in a long time..... guess I'll find out sometime in the near future.....
-
Most interesting about live nation trying to eliminate stub hub. Stub hub is convenient for selling tickets. Obviously they don't care about scalping they just want to be the one getting the cut.
As for ticketmaster they are bad but missiontix is the worst and they are independent. Lower Dens show was cancelled but I dont' get back my 7 dollars in service charge? There should be a class action lawsuit for that.
I didn't think the original lawsuit had a chance of succeeding. But the anti-trust one seems to have more merit. But with all the big bands playing at MPP, 930 club, and DAR for IMP it is going to be a hard case to show anti-trust happening in DC/MD area.
-
Do TM pay back surcharges?
It's news to me if they do.
-
Do TM pay back surcharges?
It's news to me if they do.
If not it would be a good class action lawsuit material. I know when echo + bunnymen cancelled at black cat i got the fees back.
-
TM doesn't refund processing fees
-
That is what I thought.
-
TM doesn't refund processing fees
That definitely should be against the law. You are paying for something and not getting it. Definitely a scam of the first order.
-
Well, you're paying for your order to be processed. Bandwidth, etc. Not justifying it; it's just what they'd say. I think it's bullshit, too.
-
Well, you're paying for your order to be processed. Bandwidth, etc. Not justifying it; it's just what they'd say. I think it's bullshit, too.
yeah, I guess they're doing what you're paying them to do, process the transaction... that doesn't change whether there's a show or not.... what's more annoying to me than not getting your "convenience charge" refunded, is when a band postpones their show a day before the concert date, and then won't refund your money, even though you may not be able to make the rescheduled show..... not cool, in my book..... this happened to my neighbor earlier this month, which is why it's on my mind.....
-
TM charges "convenience" and "per order processing fee" (usually $2 to $4). They don't refund the processing fee if the event is canceled but they do refund the convenience.
http://www.ticketmaster.com/h/purchase.html
-
1.) they stuff your tickets in the envelope (labor)
2.) they take your order by phone (labor)
3.) they pay for standard mail postage
4.) they provide customer service by phone in case you have questions about your previous order (labor)
Well, you're paying for your order to be processed. Bandwidth, etc. Not justifying it; it's just what they'd say. I think it's bullshit, too.
-
For what they charge, they should send someone (that you pick from a list of pics on the site) out to your house to give you a free old fashion, too.
Look at it as their giving you a reacharound as they fuck you in the ass.
-
To me this is like if you had a reservation through open table and then you get a call from the restaurant saying they can't accomodate you but you have to pay 10 bucks processing. Or you order a book through Amazon and they find out they don't have it in stock and they cancel your order and make you pay 10 dollars conveince fee.
Ticketing is scam. You can't return the tickets. You pay outragous fees. There should be a set price and whatever the deal that the venue pays to the ticketing system is their business. I don't need to know what it is. And when you cancel an event give me my money back. All of it.
-
To me this is like if you had a reservation through open table and then you get a call from the restaurant saying they can't accomodate you but you have to pay 10 bucks processing. Or you order a book through Amazon and they find out they don't have it in stock and they cancel your order and make you pay 10 dollars conveince fee.
Ticketing is scam. You can't return the tickets. You pay outragous fees. There should be a set price and whatever the deal that the venue pays to the ticketing system is their business. I don't need to know what it is. And when you cancel an event give me my money back. All of it.
if all of that happened . . . people would stop using the service and the service would stop doing that or go away. people can't stop going to concerts. they are slaves to music. ticket companies know nobody will DO anything about it, except bitch, and keep using the service . . . thus, they aren't going to stop. the government has been using this tactic for years.
-
To me this is like if you had a reservation through open table and then you get a call from the restaurant saying they can't accomodate you but you have to pay 10 bucks processing. Or you order a book through Amazon and they find out they don't have it in stock and they cancel your order and make you pay 10 dollars conveince fee.
Ticketing is scam. You can't return the tickets. You pay outragous fees. There should be a set price and whatever the deal that the venue pays to the ticketing system is their business. I don't need to know what it is. And when you cancel an event give me my money back. All of it.
if all of that happened . . . people would stop using the service and the service would stop doing that or go away. people can't stop going to concerts. they are slaves to music. ticket companies know nobody will DO anything about it, except bitch, and keep using the service . . . thus, they aren't going to stop. the government has been using this tactic for years.
Actually....I stopped going to shows due to getting raped everytime I bought a ticket. Now I live in live concert wasteland so it's not even a temptation.
-
This is slander, Live Nation would never screw over anyone.
"But two years after Blige took the stage that first night, the wait continues for the Fillmore?s stakeholders to deliver on some of the commitments they made to win the right to operate the publicly financed facility."
"Montgomery County and Live Nation, the $5.8 billion live entertainment giant, have held just one of a required 72 free or discounted community events at the venue to date, and have yet to agree on terms for the staging of a charitable auction that is supposed to take place annually."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-fillmore-in-the-spotlight/2013/09/06/9473c2a2-08eb-11e3-9941-6711ed662e71_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-fillmore-in-the-spotlight/2013/09/06/9473c2a2-08eb-11e3-9941-6711ed662e71_story.html)
-
Nice going, Montgomery County. You get what you deserve.
At least the Fillmore wasn't named "Most Hopeful" venue.
-
Hmm I think some friends played that one community event if it is the one I am thinking of. It was a Sonic Circuits show.
Edit: Nevermind.
This is slander, Live Nation would never screw over anyone.
"But two years after Blige took the stage that first night, the wait continues for the Fillmore?s stakeholders to deliver on some of the commitments they made to win the right to operate the publicly financed facility."
"Montgomery County and Live Nation, the $5.8 billion live entertainment giant, have held just one of a required 72 free or discounted community events at the venue to date, and have yet to agree on terms for the staging of a charitable auction that is supposed to take place annually."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-fillmore-in-the-spotlight/2013/09/06/9473c2a2-08eb-11e3-9941-6711ed662e71_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-fillmore-in-the-spotlight/2013/09/06/9473c2a2-08eb-11e3-9941-6711ed662e71_story.html)
-
was the free show the icelandic festival? with of monsters and men?
-
Aren't EDM community shows? It gets the bros off the streets
-
Nice going, Montgomery County. You get what you deserve.
At least the Fillmore wasn't named "Most Hopeful" venue.
I could count the number of shows I've seen at the Fillmore on one hand, none of the bands they book remotely interest me and on the whole I find it a disappointment.
-
blast from the past threads . . . are the best
-
the fillmore in Miami beach has to 50 tickets for $10 for every show to any mb resident who is senior citizen or student.
-
blast from the past threads . . . are the best
true..... and all this time later, I still haven't been to a show there.....
-
i went once, it was ok, but their beer selection, was horrible, but since i dont drink anymore, i have to admit, i enjoy the fact there is a very nice hotel literally a block away, which is nice.