930 Forums
=> GENERAL DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Thousand Made-Up Loves on July 09, 2010, 02:42:24 pm
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With the North American portion of the Wolf Parade tour beginning, conversation at the band's bbs has started to revolve around the startling phenomenon of moshing at Wolf Parade shows. I mean, this isn't Slayer or Sepultura we're talking about here, it's a freaking indie band. But, at the Philly show in 08 I attended, there was certainly too much moshing and I heard that the NYC shows that year also had moshing.
I, for one, think this is fucking bullshit and venues should be ejecting moshers by the busload. I understand that 9:30 and the Black Cat have signs up saying ABSOLUTELY NO MOSHING, but are they actually enforced?
Venues that allow people to mosh at indie shows are doing their loyal customers an incredible disservice by letting a bunch of fucking assholes ruin the experience for others. Moshing is easily one of the most selfish phenomenons in music. I'm going to the show on Tuesday and I hope I don't end up punching someone in the fucking face. Rikers would be a bad place to end up.
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Getting old?
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You should be punched in the face for liking such a lame band.
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the club has no signs that say "absolutely no moshing."
if the band does not make any requests regarding moshing, our policy is on a sliding scale. if a pit breaks out at a show, we will monitor the area. there are some behaviors that are always unacceptable, but the crowd determines the acceptability of others. what is ok at a metal or hardcore show would not be ok at a pop punk show. it's a subjective decision, but the staph has many years of experience and we do our best to determine the appropriateness of any moshing activity at any show. if the participants aren't out to hurt anyone and the crowd is ok with it, moshing will be allowed at some shows.
there are plenty of spots in the club that patrons can watch the show from if they do not want to be in the vicinity of a mosh pit.
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Thank you for your input, thatguy.
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Been a little while since a TMUL bitch thread.
I was kind of surprised (and disappointed) at the lack of a significant pit at the Melvins a couple weeks ago.
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moshing at a WP show? seriously? is their live show a lot more aggro than their recorded stuff?
I was kind of surprised (and disappointed) at the lack of a significant pit at the Melvins a couple weeks ago.
good point - this is DC. moshing = form of dancing. TMUL, i think you'll be safe ;D
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I think moshing at the She & Him show would have been super ;D
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people were moshing at Animal Collective last year. The pushing and whatnot was comparable to that of Prodigy's show at some point, which stunned me.
I think moshing is ok when the music style calls for it, and as long as people are respectful of those around them.
We don't allow any moshing/crowd surfing whatsoever at The National. (I say "we" because I work part time customer service/security during shows there.)
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people were moshing at Animal Collective last year. The pushing and whatnot was comparable to that of Prodigy's show at some point, which stunned me.
I think moshing is ok when the music style calls for it, and as long as people are respectful of those around them.
We don't allow any moshing/crowd surfing whatsoever at The National. (I say "we" because I work part time customer service/security during shows there.)
The Prodigy show was amazing. I can't say it was a mosh pit per se, but people were going nuts. I also saw a few crowd surfers too, which I thought was a no no in the club but it was quickly dispersed (either that or the dude fell on his noggin) ;D
oh, you work at the National?? cool, the security there are always awesome. No dickheads in all the times I have been there ;D
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Some idiot crowd surfer landed on my head during BRMC. One of the last shows where I thought that would happen.
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Some idiot crowd surfer landed on my head during BRMC.
crowd surfing annoys me way more than moshing, for the most part. moshers make it clear where the pit is, and you can move away if you don't like it. a crowd surfer's boot or elbow can come flying in from any direction. also, if there is crowd surfing happening, it means that people are packed in tight. little option of moving out of the way of an incoming surfer.
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The Melvins/Isis gig had plenty of moshing I thought. Moshing at shows was a right of passage back in my teenage years (the nu/alt/rap metal days lol) I really do think indie rock is the new Nu Metal. So the crowds it draws will reflect this.
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The 9:30 Club combats moshing by packing in so many people no one can move anyway
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people were moshing at Animal Collective last year. The pushing and whatnot was comparable to that of Prodigy's show at some point, which stunned me.
I think moshing is ok when the music style calls for it, and as long as people are respectful of those around them.
We don't allow any moshing/crowd surfing whatsoever at The National. (I say "we" because I work part time customer service/security during shows there.)
The Prodigy show was amazing. I can't say it was a mosh pit per se, but people were going nuts. I also saw a few crowd surfers too, which I thought was a no no in the club but it was quickly dispersed (either that or the dude fell on his noggin) ;D
oh, you work at the National?? cool, the security there are always awesome. No dickheads in all the times I have been there ;D
Ah thanks man, words like that are much appreciated.
Both Prodigy shows (06 and 09) had crowd surfers and moshers. I don't mind moshing as long as its controlled (somewhat), but I hate crowd surfers. It's pretty annoying to be enjoying a show and then out of nowhere a foot kicks you in the back of the head.
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the club has no signs that say "absolutely no moshing."
if the band does not make any requests regarding moshing, our policy is on a sliding scale. if a pit breaks out at a show, we will monitor the area. there are some behaviors that are always unacceptable, but the crowd determines the acceptability of others. what is ok at a metal or hardcore show would not be ok at a pop punk show. it's a subjective decision, but the staph has many years of experience and we do our best to determine the appropriateness of any moshing activity at any show. if the participants aren't out to hurt anyone and the crowd is ok with it, moshing will be allowed at some shows.
there are plenty of spots in the club that patrons can watch the show from if they do not want to be in the vicinity of a mosh pit.
I think that is a terrible policy. I was at the 30th anniversary show and 3 idiots started "moshing". It was annoying. We had been there all day. If they want to "Mosh" let them do it in the back of the club.
I can see slam dancing at the hardcore shows in the 80's when nobody cared about the music anyway. But really at a Wolf Parade show. This is basically a way of keeping the females from the front and is really a sort of sexism. If someone shoves themselves into me at a show like that expect to be shoved back in the face.
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I think that is a terrible policy. I was at the 30th anniversary show and 3 idiots started "moshing". It was annoying. We had been there all day. If they want to "Mosh" let them do it in the back of the club.
that's the thing about a standing room venue. they have just as much right to enjoy the show the way they want to up front as you do. if the crowd decides that there's room for a mosh pit up there, it can happen. if they don't, it won't. power in numbers really does work.
like i said, it's a sliding scale. that means it goes from no moshing allowed all the way up to some pretty heavy stuff. if it's totally out of place for the show, we'll stop it.
i can't remember more than a handful of times over my tenure at the club where a mosh pit broke out at a wildly inappropriate show. i'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that in my experience it doesn't happen very often. when it has, we shut it down.
This is basically a way of keeping the females from the front and is really a sort of sexism.
you lost me completely here.
If someone shoves themselves into me at a show like that expect to be shoved back in the face.
or, you could alert the nearest door staph member.
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This is basically a way of keeping the females from the front and is really a sort of sexism.
you lost me completely here.
i believe the intent of that statement is that women, being smaller/not as strong/shorter/etc are intimidated by the aggressive nature of mosh pits. fearing for their own comfort & safety, they need to keep their distance, thus they find themselves excluded from the front section of the floor where mosh pits usually take place.
so, all you big mean ogres who like to mosh: stop it, you sexist pigs. you're oppressing women. again.
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The only "pit" that I know of that broke out during the Melvins was a tiny one on the right side in the very front. I missed most of the Isis set, though so I can't comment on that. As far as the "oppressing females" thing goes, the female friend I was with was also annoyed with the DC crowd for not moshing at that show.
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The only "pit" that I know of that broke out during the Melvins was a tiny one on the right side in the very front. I missed most of the Isis set, though so I can't comment on that. As far as the "oppressing females" thing goes, the female friend I was with was also annoyed with the DC crowd for not moshing at that show.
you should have pushed her to the ground, so she didn't felt left out ;D
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Kind of funny...I think that moshing is totally appropriate at certain shows. Watching Iggy Pop or David Yow launch themselves off the stage can only really happen if the crowd is receptive, and moshing usually will convey that the audience is into it. I'm not sure that I agree with the level of moshing I saw at some Oasis shows in the mid-90's, and I certainly didn't appreciate being caught in a horrid crowd surge at a Ned's Atomic Dustbin show (I was nearly trampled), but I certainly expected it at Helmet or even the Beastie Boys. Frankly, I'm glad it's not something you see much anymore, but that Prodigy show last year was a LOT of fun.
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That statuesque Jesus Lizard crowd at the club in '09 was disgraceful.
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The Baltimore Jesus Lizard show was amphetamine n' acid fueled chaos. David even made fun of the DC show and called DC the new San Francisco haha. Now that was a moshing acceptable show if there ever was one. Moshing as sexism? Was anyone at that Drunkdriver show at Goldenwest Cafe? It was pretty much only girls moshing! I expect that upcoming Boris show to be a mosh zone. Their Black Cat shows had aggression bubbling under the surface.
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My missing those TJL and Drunkdriver shows are wounds that will fester forever.
Especially Drunkdriver because I thought for sure they would be around for years. . Only got to catch them once when they played Velvet. TJL sounded like it was an exponentially better experience in Baltimore.
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I think that is a terrible policy. I was at the 30th anniversary show and 3 idiots started "moshing". It was annoying. We had been there all day. If they want to "Mosh" let them do it in the back of the club.
that's the thing about a standing room venue. they have just as much right to enjoy the show the way they want to up front as you do. if the crowd decides that there's room for a mosh pit up there, it can happen. if they don't, it won't. power in numbers really does work.
like i said, it's a sliding scale. that means it goes from no moshing allowed all the way up to some pretty heavy stuff. if it's totally out of place for the show, we'll stop it.
i can't remember more than a handful of times over my tenure at the club where a mosh pit broke out at a wildly inappropriate show. i'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that in my experience it doesn't happen very often. when it has, we shut it down.
This is basically a way of keeping the females from the front and is really a sort of sexism.
you lost me completely here.
If someone shoves themselves into me at a show like that expect to be shoved back in the face.
or, you could alert the nearest door staph member.
I don't like uncontralable crowds. If you are moshing go to the back as you aren't interested in seeing the set anyway.
Back when the place was WUST at a Dead Kennedy's show I saw people jumping off the upper level and getting up bleeding and then be escorrted out. Skinheads fighting with people in the pit. Jello challenging the skinheads to fights.
Anyway at virgin a couple of years ago they had some wooden structure not to far back from the stage. Some kids started jumping off it and having me catch them so they could crowd surf during Bloc Party. I had a huge line of people waiting for me to catch them and put them on there way. I think I lifted about 75 people or so people up or caught them.. Then the 930 security guards came out and put two security personal around the structure so that people couldn't do that anymore. I don't see what the big deal was in that situation. As they weren't hurting anyone.
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If you mosh and are over the age of 19 or so, you are a loser.
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Sez the guy with his own photo blog ;D
If you mosh and are over the age of 19 or so, you are a loser.
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i can't remember more than a handful of times over my tenure at the club where a mosh pit broke out at a wildly inappropriate show. i'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that in my experience it doesn't happen very often. when it has, we shut it down.
Seth will tolerate moshing and assorted behavior until someone gets paralyzed and sues his ass
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If you are moshing go to the back as you aren't interested in seeing the set anyway.
can't agree with you there. moshing is a form of interacting with the band, and the moshers want to show the band their enthusiasm/energy/etc.
and some bands want to see moshing, etc (re: yow's mocking comments at the lack of energy of the DC crowd - i doubt he would have said the same things had a mosh pit broken out during the show).
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i was embarrased by the showing at the DC show. the jesus lizard even cut their set short a few songs and i don't blame them. i'm sure the baltimore crowd was great, they always are. although to be fair, there have been some shows this year where i've seen the dc crowd go off (buzzcocks, jello biafra).
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Lightning Bolt's crowd also didn't disappoint.
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can't agree with you there. moshing is a form of interacting with the band, and the moshers want to show the band their enthusiasm/energy/etc.
Or, it's a form of latent homosexual bonding, since most of the chix get chased away from the front while guys get into rubbing against each other.
and some bands want to see moshing
Just more proof of how lame it is... originating in the 70s as an expression of rebellion, it is now so rote and hackneyed that bands actually expect it.
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If someone shoves themselves into me at a show like that expect to be shoved back in the face.
or, you could alert the nearest door staph member.
Easier said than done, especially if you are short and not directly against the barricade.
I agree that the rules at each show are different, but I think the staph may tolerate a little more than the audience members would. Sometimes the masses of people who don't want to be rubbed against by a sweaty "dancing" person try to regulate themselves and get yelled at by said inappropriate "dancing" drunk person about how she'll do what she wants because this is a GA show and why aren't YOU dancing, jerk??? Even if it means she elbows and bruises everyone around her.
As for crowd-surfing, it is stupid and dangerous. And I hope everyone who does it gets seriously injured and learns his/her lesson. It's something I can't stand about VFest. Too much of that nonsense.
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Anyway at virgin a couple of years ago they had some wooden structure not to far back from the stage. Some kids started jumping off it and having me catch them so they could crowd surf during Bloc Party. I had a huge line of people waiting for me to catch them and put them on there way. I think I lifted about 75 people or so people up or caught them.. Then the 930 security guards came out and put two security personal around the structure so that people couldn't do that anymore. I don't see what the big deal was in that situation. As they weren't hurting anyone.
a conversation with our insurance company and a representative from pimlico lead to that decision. it was a combination of not wanting people to hurt themselves and not wanting people to damage the property.
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i believe the intent of that statement is that women, being smaller/not as strong/shorter/etc are intimidated by the aggressive nature of mosh pits. fearing for their own comfort & safety, they need to keep their distance, thus they find themselves excluded from the front section of the floor where mosh pits usually take place.
i understand that. i don't understand how that constitutes sexism on our part.
there is plenty of room, and often plenty of room near the front, that will be absolutely mosh pit free at the VAST majority of shows.
that said, some of the most inappropriately aggressive people i've ever dealt with in pits have been women.
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As for crowd-surfing, it is stupid and dangerous. And I hope everyone who does it gets seriously injured and learns his/her lesson.
the issue of crowd surfing is totally different from moshing. while you can reasonably avoid mosh pits, crowd surfing is difficult to keep away from. if someone that crowd surfs gets injured, that's on them for taking part in a risky activity. the problem with crowd surfing is that the great majority of injuries related to it are to people other than the surfer. in a mosh pit, it's the mosher that gets injured. with crowd surfers, it's the unsuspecting patron that gets stepped on, or the girl that gets crushed under them, or the staph member that gets kicked in the head countless times over the last 15 years.
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can't agree with you there. moshing is a form of interacting with the band, and the moshers want to show the band their enthusiasm/energy/etc.
Or, it's a form of latent homosexual bonding, since most of the chix get chased away from the front while guys get into rubbing against each other.
what sort of mosh pits have you witnessed? the ones i've seen don't involve much rubbing. they do involve collisions, thrown elbows, violent shoving, pushing people around, etc. that constitutes something homosexual for you? hey, whatever floats your boat ;-)
and some bands want to see moshing
Just more proof of how lame it is... originating in the 70s as an expression of rebellion, it is now so rote and hackneyed that bands actually expect it.
right. just like bands expect applause, or dancing, or even the crowd to listen to them. how contrived! if you ever react to a show in any way that's been done before, you're sheeple.
who knew it - those people that talk all the way through a show: they're rebels. they're flying their own flag of non-conformity. all customs and expectations are slavery.
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there is plenty of room, and often plenty of room near the front, that will be absolutely mosh pit free at the VAST majority of shows.
lol
if the club is sold out, the only place there's plenty of room is outside the club or backstage
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I can attest that the club staph does an amazing job monitoring these situations and controlling them for those on the edges, but letting it go on in a contained manner. That may sound uptight, but it works really well. Can't remember what show, but I was at a show where it made sense (like Social D, or Dropkick Murphys or something), but the 'pit' stayed at a very tight circle and really didn't impinge on folks who did not want to mosh. I noticed a staff person right there on the edge of the circle making sure no one was involved who didn't want to be.
the club has no signs that say "absolutely no moshing."
if the band does not make any requests regarding moshing, our policy is on a sliding scale. if a pit breaks out at a show, we will monitor the area. there are some behaviors that are always unacceptable, but the crowd determines the acceptability of others. what is ok at a metal or hardcore show would not be ok at a pop punk show. it's a subjective decision, but the staph has many years of experience and we do our best to determine the appropriateness of any moshing activity at any show. if the participants aren't out to hurt anyone and the crowd is ok with it, moshing will be allowed at some shows.
there are plenty of spots in the club that patrons can watch the show from if they do not want to be in the vicinity of a mosh pit.
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I noticed a staff person right there on the edge of the circle making sure no one was involved who didn't want to be.
Why is it always the short guys too? LOL
Ross...
Tim... RIP
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One time that I think a mosh pit broke out at an inappropriate time was the Muse show at the Patriot Center in 07. There were a few drunken idiots that seemed to really get out of hand and were bothering all the people around them that just wanted to watch the show. I watched Josh handle the situation from the seats and gained alot of respect for how good he is at his job.
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One time that I think a mosh pit broke out at an inappropriate time was the Muse show at the Patriot Center in 07. There were a few drunken idiots that seemed to really get out of hand and were bothering all the people around them that just wanted to watch the show. I watched Josh handle the situation from the seats and gained alot of respect for how good he is at his job.
details, what did josh do?? give the eye? ;D
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Does nobody remember the moshing at the Cranberries show on the Mall?
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Remember it? I STARTED IT!!!!!
"my dreams, it's never quite as it seems, Never quite as it seems" ROOOOOOAAAAARRR!
Does nobody remember the moshing at the Cranberries show on the Mall?
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One time that I think a mosh pit broke out at an inappropriate time was the Muse show at the Patriot Center in 07. There were a few drunken idiots that seemed to really get out of hand and were bothering all the people around them that just wanted to watch the show. I watched Josh handle the situation from the seats and gained alot of respect for how good he is at his job.
details, what did josh do?? give the eye? ;D
I saw the whole thing from a distance, so I don't know exactly, but he seemed to get right in the face of the few moshing idiots and tell them to cool it. Maybe Josh can elaborate if he remembers.
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One time that I think a mosh pit broke out at an inappropriate time was the Muse show at the Patriot Center in 07. There were a few drunken idiots that seemed to really get out of hand and were bothering all the people around them that just wanted to watch the show. I watched Josh handle the situation from the seats and gained alot of respect for how good he is at his job.
details, what did josh do?? give the eye? ;D
I saw the whole thing from a distance, so I don't know exactly, but he seemed to get right in the face of the few moshing idiots and tell them to cool it. Maybe Josh can elaborate if he remembers.
Why words when a picture will do:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs028.ash2/34750_101258879927483_100001301133211_7248_4392364_n.jpg)
I guess Josh is right about the women....
(The photograph above does not in any way represent how Josh performs his job. It's just a fantasy, 'k?)
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Remember it? I STARTED IT!!!!!
"my dreams, it's never quite as it seems, Never quite as it seems" ROOOOOOAAAAARRR!
Does nobody remember the moshing at the Cranberries show on the Mall?
ahhh... bringin back the memories! that was the one time in high school i skipped (what can i say? i was a rebel!). i don't remember moshing so much as flying bottles....
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who knew it - those people that talk all the way through a show: they're rebels. they're flying their own flag of non-conformity. all customs and expectations are slavery.
I do realize you are trying to display a sense of humor, but actually talking through a show is similar to moshing in that it has very little to do with the band, is all about the person doing it, and lacks consideration for the people around.
In general I think moshing is like drugs at jam bands -- a way to cover up for bad music.
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In general I think moshing is like drugs at jam bands -- a way to cover up for bad music.
I don't think that was entirely the origin of moshing. I think that initially it was audience participation directly as a result of intense, violent music that people were just reacting to. But by the time the 90's rolled around, it was very poser-ish and people were doing it because they thought they were being cool. I remember seeing Nirvana at Bender Arena in 1993 and the moshing was so out of control and so unneccessary. It was a whole new group of people going to concerts who didn't know how to behave and as a result they thought that's what one does at concerts. What a pain in the ass. But every now and then a little craziness at a show can be entertaining.
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who knew it - those people that talk all the way through a show: they're rebels. they're flying their own flag of non-conformity. all customs and expectations are slavery.
I do realize you are trying to display a sense of humor, but actually talking through a show is similar to moshing in that it has very little to do with the band, is all about the person doing it, and lacks consideration for the people around.
In general I think moshing is like drugs at jam bands -- a way to cover up for bad music.
Tell that to Slayer, Grampa
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who knew it - those people that talk all the way through a show: they're rebels. they're flying their own flag of non-conformity. all customs and expectations are slavery.
I do realize you are trying to display a sense of humor, but actually talking through a show is similar to moshing in that it has very little to do with the band, is all about the person doing it, and lacks consideration for the people around.
In general I think moshing is like drugs at jam bands -- a way to cover up for bad music.
It is so Richmond to go to a show just to meet up with friends and talk all night long at an screaming loud voice to be heard over the music (how dare that band play while we are trying to talk). It is far worse in Richmond than anywhere I have ever been.
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who knew it - those people that talk all the way through a show: they're rebels. they're flying their own flag of non-conformity. all customs and expectations are slavery.
I do realize you are trying to display a sense of humor, but actually talking through a show is similar to moshing in that it has very little to do with the band, is all about the person doing it, and lacks consideration for the people around.
In general I think moshing is like drugs at jam bands -- a way to cover up for bad music.
hahahaha, nice one :) i still don't agree with everything you said, but it made me chuckle.
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yeah . . . like jam bands and the people who listen to it are the ONLY people in music who do drugs.
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yeah . . . like jam bands and the people who listen to it are the ONLY people in music who do drugs.
Wait, people still listen to jam bands? Sober?
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yeah . . . like jam bands and the people who listen to it are the ONLY people in music who do drugs.
Wait, people still listen to jam bands? Sober?
about the same amount of people who listen to those 5 minute indie bands who release 1 album and 5000 downloadable only eps, and somehow all sound like mercury rev.
oh yeah mister vansmack, i've been reading your recent posts . . . and slowly you have become a favourite read.
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oh yeah mister vansmack, i've been reading your recent posts . . . and slowly you have become a favourite read.
It's the drugs.
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agreed. drugs can make anything interesting.
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im really not buying the moshing is covering up for bad music
locally what should we say than about void? no trend? SOA?
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im really not buying the moshing is covering up for bad music
locally what should we say than about void? no trend? SOA?
i went to www.hit-dat.com . . . and got nothing. is that a cover up for bad websites?
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Back when the place was WUST at a Dead Kennedy's show I saw people jumping off the upper level and getting up bleeding and then be escorrted out. Skinheads fighting with people in the pit. Jello challenging the skinheads to fights.
Came across YouTube video of TSOL opening for DK at said show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO39G-toHVc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO39G-toHVc)
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im really not buying the moshing is covering up for bad music
locally what should we say than about void? no trend? SOA?
i went to www.hit-dat.com . . . and got nothing. is that a cover up for bad websites?
almost go here: http://www.fandeathrecords.com
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I was reading an old (15 years?) interview with Michael Gira a few nights ago and came across this gem on moshing/dancing at shows:
SECONDS: Is there an appropriate audience then?
GIRA: I'm not saying I expect reverie or admiration from an audience, but I would like to have the feeling they're actually listening to the music and
not just using it as an excuse to twitch and rub their bodies up against each other. Why don't they just go out in the parking lot, if that's all they
want, and just massively buttfuck each other-get it over with? But anyway, no, just judge by our lack of commercial success; there is no appropriate audience
for Swans, and I don't really care who's there in front of us, so long as they're not repulsive to behold.
SECONDS: How much does the composition/attitude of the audience matter?
GIRA: As I say, for the most part the audiences job is to be still and listen, sort of like bipedal cows, or less disparagingly, like someone who is actually polite enough to sit quietly and listen to what you have to say during a conversation. As long as they don't distract me, they're fine with me.
SECONDS: To what extent was physical violence between you and the audience a part of early Swans shows?
GIRA: None, really. Except one time years ago when we were touring with Sonic Youth when we typically had an audience of about ten people, some guy was
actually pogo-ing in his bright orange Devo jumpsuit at the front of the stage as we played, and it was just so pathetic I couldn't help myself. I climbed
down from the stage and threw him to the ground, yelled at him to get the hell out of there. Similarly now, if anyone stage dives or moshes(what a joke!) at one of our shows I'll stop the music. I really hate group identity rituals like that. They're just a microcosm, a little factory workshop exercise in
conformism.
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i'm not sure what's more "a group identity ritual" or "a microcosm, a little factory workshop exercise in
conformism" . . . people that go see bands, or the people in the band themselves. what a bunch of cunts.