Author Topic: Lets all hide in our homes (Read 16395 times)

Ikarus · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2003, 04:59:00 pm »

alternatives? at this point, there really aren't any. if it was me in charge, we'd mount the iraqi offensive pronto, then wheel around and strike north korea's nuclear and missle development centers. then give the rest of the world the stank eye and ask if anyone else wants to fuck around. lets face it kids, might makes right.and markie, i love this bit: "And diplomacy was working with Korea until the US withdrew financial support." kinda like saying containment was working with hitler until he invaded poland.[This message has been edited by Ikarus (edited 02-13-2003).]

Venerable Bede · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:03:00 pm »

yikes, how quickly we forget that we withdrew diplomacy with korea because they admitted they violated an agreement to stop their nuclear program, and said they would keep building unless U.S. gave them more aid. that sounds like someone we want to further discussions with.saddam gassed the iranians in the iran/iraq war, and has continually gassed the minority kurds in the north and south of iraq. shall we mention the tortures, executions and assassinations of members of the iraqi parliament, members of the military and the general civilian population? if given the means, saddam has no quarrel about using them. he's invaded iran and he's invaded kuwait. he's been keeping biological weapons, against original u.n. sanctions, he's continued to build missles beyond limits set my u.n. sanctions, how many sanctions must one violate before something is done?

not too shabby · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:08:00 pm »

What you've got with Saddam is an unstable, ruthless thug of a dictator who basically wants a big section of history books devoted to him. He's proven that he cares nothing for his people (yes, I do believe that HE gassed those people, possibly 200,000 of them). He sells food and medicine that are for the Iraqis to other nations. He's proven that he can't handle WMD--he has to use them. But these things aren't the issue (whether or not they should be). The issue is that he has broken UN resolutions, and silly France and Germany want to punish him with, yes, another resolution. The only thing that will stop this man is military action. War is terrible, but sometimes it's the only option left. The only person who can stop this war from happening is Saddam.

Ikarus · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:09:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Venerable Bede: how many sanctions must one violate before something is done?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>ask israel, heh. for some reason, the us ignores un sanctions for israel's treatment of palestinians, but this iraqi shit is supposed to be important. the hypocrisy leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but the plug needs to be pulled on iraq. the un involvement is just slowing things down.

markie · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:09:00 pm »

As for the gasing, I dont think I am the only one not convinced that it was by Iraq, not Iran.......Murders of the civilian population.....well thats a red herring. Pol Pot comes to mind. As for infingement of civil liberties, I believe there are 3000 people currently in camp X-ray.How do you know the missiles contravene the us sanctions? Iraq says they dont.

jadetree · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:11:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fico: And this are the words of John Ashcroft's former pet servant.... I don't hold it against you, it was probably the indie thing to do back then...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> you are a moron

Venerable Bede · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:12:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by markie: How do you know the missiles contravene the us sanctions? Iraq says they dont.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>well. . .in today's post, "a team of international weapons inspectors ... has concluded that a major Iraqi ballistic missle program is in clear violation of U.N. mandates."

not too shabby · « **Reply #22 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:14:00 pm »

I don't think we'll know the truth (or the extent) of Saddam's reign of terror over the Iraqis until he's gone. Exiles tell a pretty grim story, though.As for those 3,000 in X-Ray, well, I won't even start.

markie · « **Reply #23 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:16:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Venerable Bede: well. . .in today's post, "a team of international weapons inspectors ... has concluded that a major Iraqi ballistic missle program is in clear violation of U.N. mandates."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>and Iraq countered by saying they didnt.Personally I feel there is a better arguement for war when appraoched with your reasoning, rather than the Al quaeda link or anything else, like that.But still infidels taking over the middle east? I would give that a wide body swerve if I were you. How stable is the region going to be with a catholic led QANGO in charge of Iraq?

markie · « **Reply #24 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:20:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by not too shabby: As for those 3,000 in X-Ray, well, I won't even start. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>what about what happened at Waco, what about Tianemen square what about Argentina of 15 years ago or again Pol Pot.Wars are not generally fought over how a country mistreats its citizens. Name one example?

jadetree · « **Reply #25 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:26:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: The video game points out the dangers of nuclear weapons in the hands of unstable nations such as Pakistan. Aren't those weapons also dangerous in the hands of an unstable dictator who has never failed to use every weapon in his arsenal, against both his neighbors and his own people?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes they are dangerous, they are dangerous in anyone's power. I am not convinced that throwing Saddam out will get rid of the problem. The problem will reemerge in 10 years. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: The point of the three threats anecdote is that inaction can have a cost, as it did with bin Laden. Or are you suggesting we should have tried diplomacy with him.We didn't take bin Laden as an immediate threat and we paid a price for that. Do we want to take that chance with Hussein?How long do we keep playing diplomacy with Iraq? What's the end-game? What's the timeline?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It still seems as it all came on suddenly to me. If you remember back to when people seriously started talking about war with Iraq, most people were surprised by the suddeness. It did not seem like the timing made any sense and there were no serious attempts and addressing the issue diplomatically before the decision was made to go to war. Iraq was on a nonexistent leash with this Administration. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ggw: Enlighten us. What should we do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't have the answers GGW, I was more worried about the fact that nobody is looking for the answers. I just know that War is not necessary, it is the god damn truth. I know, I am so very Naive, but, oh well.

jadetree · « **Reply #26 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:27:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by not too shabby: I don't think we'll know the truth (or the extent) of Saddam's reign of terror over the Iraqis until he's gone. Exiles tell a pretty grim story, though.As for those 3,000 in X-Ray, well, I won't even start. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When will we know the truth about Bush's reign of terror?

ggw · « **Reply #27 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:27:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sir HC: Ten years of sactions did work. He doesn't have nukes, does he? He has done some little crap as surrepticiously as he can, nothing major. He has started no wars in a decade, isn't that pretty damn good, and contrary to the "middle east culture"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We don't know where his weapons program stands. Ten years ago the UN told him to dismantle the program we knew about and show proof that it was dismantled. He has not shown proof, as he known he has to all along. As North Korea has shown, even inspections can't guarantee that there isn't a program.He hasn't done large scale killing of his own people because they are protected by the UN enacted No-Fly zones that we have been patrolling for ten years. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>GGW, give me good reasons why we should go to war against Saddam, everyone I ask gives the same BS:1. He is an evil, evil man. To this I say so what, there are many men who are more evil than him that we have not attacked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "Evil" is a judgment call. Let's say he's meglomaniacal and prone to violence. Are there others like that? Sure. Have the others been shown to have a WMD program? Have the others failed to dismantle that program under UN directive? Do the others have a history of using WMD against their neighbors and own people? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>2. He might get weapons on mass destruction. So, North Korea, India, Pakistan, and possibly Iran all have these, so what. He is currently pretty much under wraps, hell it is now known that we have been incessantly spying on the country and if we saw something really heinous we probably would have gone in or just bombed it already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There's no boiler-plate for foreign policy. India and Pakistan are absorbed in their own battles and currently ruled by leaders who are more level-headed than Hussein. North Korea is using it's program for leverage not aggression. Iran might be a problem, but at least there is an active opposition movement there and the country hasn't shown a propensity to invade it's neighbors or gas its own people. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>3. Links to Osama. They have tried this one for about a year, and Saddam either has more teflon in his suit than Ronald Reagan or there is nothing here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wholeheartedly agree. It's a stupid argument and we should have given it up a long time ago. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>4. He will give these weapons of mass destruction to terrorists. And then we would blow the hell out of his country. He may be an evil dictator, but he is not stupid. Has he done this in the past? No verifiable links have been shown, other than his giving of money to Palistinian "martyrs" families after the fact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We don't know what he would do with them. Even if he kept them to himself, would you still want him to have them? He has had ten years to get his nation out of UN sanctions by showing that he destroyed his weapons program. He hasn't. I don't think he really cares about his country outside of his power over it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>These are the b.s. excuses I have heard so far, so what why should we go to war? All I have heard that makes sense is that Iraq converted to the Euro as their standard for oil sales and this is not what we want. All the rest is smoke and mirrors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Gulf War I was all about oil -- As Paul O'Neill once said about the Gulf War "If the chief resource of Kuwait was bananas, we wouldn't be there." Nonetheless, this time it's about WMD in the hands of a meglomaniacal, violent dictator with a history of using every weapon in his arsenal to achieve his internal and external goals.

Venerable Bede · « **Reply #28 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:29:00 pm »

you know, i was just commenting to someone about how this is the 10 year anniversary of waco (not to mention the year of my 10 year high school reunion). time flies.

ggw · « **Reply #29 on:** February 13, 2003, 05:32:00 pm »

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ikarus: ask israel, heh. for some reason, the us ignores un sanctions for israel's treatment of palestinians, but this iraqi shit is supposed to be important. the hypocrisy leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but the plug needs to be pulled on iraq. the un involvement is just slowing things down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Amen. I'm not here to say that everything the US does is right -- it's not. But specifically talking about Iraq, I don't see any alternatives.After that, I think the single best thing we could do for our position in the world is to start tying the ridiculously huge amount of "assistance" we give to Israel to substantive steps Israel takes in removing its foot from the throats of the people who's land they've been stealing for fifty years. It would build a lot of the goodwill that the US is sorely lacking.

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Author Topic: Lets all hide in our homes (Read 16395 times)

Ikarus

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

Venerable Bede

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

not too shabby

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

Ikarus

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

markie

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

jadetree

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

Venerable Bede

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

not too shabby

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

markie

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

markie

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

jadetree

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

jadetree

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

ggw

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

Venerable Bede

Re: Lets all hide in our homes

ggw

Re: Lets all hide in our homes