Author Topic: My position on scalping...  (Read 65514 times)

Seth Hurwitz

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 1011
My position on scalping...
« on: March 28, 2009, 07:45:09 pm »
I think it sucks and they ought to make it illegal

in the meantime, they should find out how these people are getting the tickets

eros

  • Member
  • Posts: 1111
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2009, 08:01:09 pm »
I'm pretty sure sure this was posted in another thread, but Trent Reznor summed it up pretty well.

"As we approach on-sale dates for the upcoming tour, I've noticed lots of you are curious / concerned / outraged at the plethora of tickets that somehow appear on all these reseller sites at inflated prices - even before the pre-sale dates. I'll do my best to explain the situation as I see it, as well as clarify my organization's stance in the matter.

NIN decides to tour this summer. We arrive at the conclusion outdoor amphitheaters are the right venue for this outing, for a variety of reasons we've throughly considered*. In the past, NIN would sell the shows in each market to local promoters, who then "buy" the show from us to sell to you. Live Nation happens to own all the amphitheaters and bought most of the local promoters - so if you want to play those venues, you're being promoted by Live Nation. Live Nation has had an exclusive deal with TicketMaster that has just expired, so Live Nation launched their own ticketing service. Most of the dates on this tour are through Live Nation, some are through TicketMaster - this is determined by the promoter (Live Nation), not us.
Now we get into the issue of secondary markets for tickets, which is the hot issue here. The ticketing marketplace for rock concerts shows a real lack of sophistication, meaning this: the true market value of some tickets for some concerts is much higher than what the act wants to be perceived as charging. For example, there are some people who would be willing to pay $1,000 and up to be in the best seats for various shows, but MOST acts in the rock / pop world don't want to come off as greedy pricks asking that much, even though the market says its value is that high. The acts know this, the venue knows this, the promoters know this, the ticketing company knows this and the scalpers really know this. So...

The venue, the promoter, the ticketing agency and often the artist camp (artist, management and agent) take tickets from the pool of available seats and feed them directly to the re-seller (which from this point on will be referred to by their true name: SCALPER). I am not saying every one of the above entities all do this, nor am I saying they do it for all shows but this is a very common practice that happens more often than not. There is money to be made and they feel they should participate in it. There are a number of scams they employ to pull this off which is beyond the scope of this note.

StubHub.com is an example of a re-seller / scalper. So is TicketsNow.com.

Here's the rub: TicketMaster has essentially been a monopoly for many years - certainly up until Live Nation's exclusive deal ran out. They could have (and can right now) stop the secondary market dead in its tracks by doing the following: limit the amount of sales per customer, print names on the tickets and require ID / ticket matches at the venue. We know this works because we do it for our pre-sales. Why don't THEY do it? It's obvious - they make a lot of money fueling the secondary market. TicketMaster even bought a re-seller site and often bounces you over to that site to buy tickets (TicketsNow.com)!

NIN gets 10% of the available seats for our own pre-sale. We won a tough (and I mean TOUGH) battle to get the best seats. We require you to sign up at our site (for free) to get tickets. We limit the amount you can buy, we print your name on the tickets and we have our own person let you in a separate entrance where we check your ID to match the ticket. We charge you a surcharge that has been less than TicketMaster's or Live Nation's in all cases so far to pay for the costs of doing this - it's not a profit center for us. We have essentially stopped scalping by doing these things - because we want true fans to be able to get great seats and not get ripped off by these parasites.

I assure you nobody in the NIN camp supplies or supports the practice of supplying tickets to these re-sellers because it's not something we morally feel is the right thing to do. We are leaving money on the table here but it's not always about money.
Being completely honest, it IS something I've had to consider. If people are willing to pay a lot of money to sit up front AND ARE GOING TO ANYWAY thanks to the rigged system, why let that money go into the hands of the scalpers? I'm the one busting my ass up there every night. The conclusion really came down to it not feeling like the right thing to do - simple as that.

My guess as to what will eventually happen if / when Live Nation and TicketMaster merges is that they'll move to an auction or market-based pricing scheme - which will simply mean it will cost a lot more to get a good seat for a hot show. They will simply BECOME the scalper, eliminating them from the mix.

Nothing's going to change until the ticketing entity gets serious about stopping the problem - which of course they don't see as a problem. The ultimate way to hurt scalpers is to not support them. Leave them holding the merchandise. If this subject interests you, check out the following links. Don't buy from scalpers, and be suspect of artists singing the praises of the Live Nation / TicketMaster merger. What's in it for them?

* I fully realize by playing those venues we are getting into bed with all these guys. I've learned to choose my fights and at this point in time it would be logistically too difficult to attempt to circumvent the venues / promoter / ticketing infrastructure already in place for this type of tour. For those of you about to snipe "it's your fault for playing there, etc... " - I know it is."


What continues to amaze me is that people actually pay these prices.  I can't remember the last time I wasn't able to score a ticket to a show or sporting event I wanted to attend at a reasonable price (i.e., at or very close to face value).  If people could just get it through their heads that for "big ticket" events there is almost always a glut of inventory on the show date (check craigslist sometime) plus the fact that more tickets are always released prior to the show, then the scalpers would have a harder time doing business.
ʎɐʍou

betao

  • Member
  • Posts: 1106
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2009, 08:22:53 pm »
*paging all Phish fans to the thread, paging*

Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface

  • Member
  • Posts: 5970
  • JULIAN'S AMERICA - It makes my taco pop!
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2009, 08:42:34 pm »
I'm completely fine with it. Honestly.

sweetcell

  • Member
  • Posts: 21782
  • I don't belong here.
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2009, 09:33:23 pm »
"As we approach on-sale dates for the upcoming tour, I've noticed lots of you are curious / concerned / outraged at the plethora of tickets that somehow appear on all these reseller sites at inflated prices - even before the pre-sale dates.

something to consider: just because someone lists a ticket for sale doesn't mean they have it in hand.  anyone can promise a front-row seat for $2000 - at that stupid price, they will find one for less and pocket the difference.
<sig>

Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2009, 10:34:56 pm »
This coming from the guy who buys a can of Guinness for $2 and resells it for $9.

That's rich, bro. Real fucking rich.  ;D


I think it sucks and they ought to make it illegal

in the meantime, they should find out how these people are getting the tickets

mrcid

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2009, 11:28:34 pm »
I hate beer scalpers. They really suck the squirrels nuts.

wml7

  • Member
  • Posts: 3061
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2009, 11:32:55 pm »
Speaking of scalping, when the hell is v fest seth??

sweetcell

  • Member
  • Posts: 21782
  • I don't belong here.
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2009, 11:47:58 pm »
I'm completely fine with it. Honestly.

as a representative of the ferragamo & channel set (aka those who can & do pay $1000 for a seat), i wouldn't have expected anything less :D
<sig>

profile14

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2009, 12:08:36 am »
Trent Reznor sums it up very well. But really, the fact is, it is up to us as consumers to stay ahead of the scalpers, be on the lists for presale info from your favoratie venues and bands. The best example I know of is Metallica: If you are a member of their fan club (which costs like $25 a year and includes a T-shirt, quarterly mag and other shit), you get pre-sale privileges that give you access to the best seats. But you cannot resell them. You must appear at will call to claim you tix day-of-show, with ID, then go directly into the venue. You cannot even walk into the street with the tix. This works great, because the best seats go to the real fans and resellers are completely out of the loop. Other premium (expensive, big venue) bands should do the same.

mrcid

  • Member
  • Posts: 3
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2009, 01:26:19 am »
That Metallica plan works perfectly. You should ask all of my buyers. They had the best seats in the house.

profile14

  • Member
  • Posts: 22
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2009, 08:06:58 am »
well, seemed fool-proof to me. Guess there's always a way around.
The pre-sale for the fall U.S. tour starts April 1, but no DC show. But say I wanted to buy some fan club presale tix to give to a friend for the show at the NYC Garden. How would I do that, without me having to be there to claim them for him? Not being facetious, seriously would like to know.

Herr Professor Doktor Doom

  • Member
  • Posts: 3745
    • my blog
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2009, 08:13:55 am »
Scalping is different from beer reselling -- Scalpers profit without adding value to the transaction, and are therefore essentially leeches on society (much like derivatives traders).   Bars profit because they add value to the beer they're selling -- an enjoyable atmosphere, for example.   

I'm rather surprised this obvious difference needs to be explained.   ::)

Finally, if MrCid is actually a scalper, I say off with his head (or off with his Forum account)

« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 08:20:00 am by Doctor Doom »
_\|/_

Injun Joe

  • Member
  • Posts: 2
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2009, 08:23:13 am »
Mr. Hurlwitz, I would ask that you do not use the term scalping.  It does an injustice to my people.  I have attened an event at your club and I have indeed paid $9 for a $2 beer.  I like my Guiness.  It's like a beer milkshake.  But I did not like paying such an extreme amount for my beer milkshake.  You Mr. Hurlwitz, you are like the pot calling the kettle black.  That being, both the pot and kettle are black.  You charge very very high prices for your alcohol (the beer milkshake that I had as well as a shot of whisky) and then complain about ticket prices.  You, my friend,  are an intoxicating liquor scalper, er broker. 

Seth Hurwitz

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 1011
Re: My position on scalping...
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2009, 09:34:51 am »
Here's the difference...

I am not complaining about ticket prices

I am complaining about people buying up all the tickets and then jacking the price up from what was intended to be charged

This would be like someone entering the club, buying all the Guiness we had, and setting up shop selling them at twice the price