Author Topic: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass  (Read 11080 times)

We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« on: April 15, 2009, 01:48:01 pm »
I'm just sayin'.

sweetcell

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2009, 02:46:46 pm »
and i'm just agreein', however any smugness is tenuous.  should the pirates make good on their threat to execute american and french sailors next time they are captured, we won't exactly be high-fiving our effectiveness in the waters off somalia...
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sonickteam2

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2009, 03:22:39 pm »
its funny how the US didnt care about the pirates until now.  They have been capturing ships and stealing goods for years.

   maybe now that a US ship was messed with, we'll get some headway into really stopping these A-holes.

vansmack

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2009, 06:07:15 pm »
its funny how the US didnt care about the pirates until now.  They have been capturing ships and stealing goods for years.

   maybe now that a US ship was messed with, we'll get some headway into really stopping these A-holes.

I think what you meant to say was:

I think it's funny how the US Media didn't care about the pirates until now.  They have been capturing ships and stealing goods for years, and it's been reported in international press for nearly as long.

Now that the US media has picked up on thanks to the pirates finally pirating a US ship, the US will be forced to step up its role in stopping these A-holes.

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vansmack

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 06:38:56 pm »
   maybe now that a US ship was messed with, we'll get some headway into really stopping these A-holes.

The US has been part of a naval coalition in the area for some time - it's a bit unfair to say that "now the us is involved." 

The only way to stop the pirates is to fix Somalia, and I don't see that happening any time soon.  The pirates are powerless if they can't get their stolen cargo (be it human or goods) to port, and only one port is allowing them to dock these days - it just happens to be the most failed state in the world.  As we saw with the US blockade and the Bainbridge actually pushing the life boat away from shore, those negotiating on behalf of the victims have much more leverage when the aggressors and their booty are left at sea. Fix Somalia and you fix the pirating problem - doubling the number of ships will only reduce the number of boats being taken over, but it won't end the problem.
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sonickteam2

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2009, 10:55:21 pm »
its funny how the US didnt care about the pirates until now.  They have been capturing ships and stealing goods for years.

   maybe now that a US ship was messed with, we'll get some headway into really stopping these A-holes.

I think what you meant to say was:

I think it's funny how the US Media didn't care about the pirates until now.  They have been capturing ships and stealing goods for years, and it's been reported in international press for nearly as long.

Now that the US media has picked up on thanks to the pirates finally pirating a US ship, the US will be forced to step up its role in stopping these A-holes.




 pretty much. I had been hearing about it on NPR for quite some time too. 

  The US can be part of whatever coalition it wants but once the media has made it an issue for all Americans, i think its fair to say the US may step up its efforts.

  Good luck fixing Somalia!

sweetcell

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2009, 10:48:35 am »
dude, clinton is TOTALLY sticking it to the pirates: says we're going to go after the pirates' assets!!!  FUCK YEAH!!!  GIVE 'EM HELL!!!

too bad they live in a lawless country with no banking system and no functioning government nor police, are paid in cash, don't invest overseas, probably have no intention of ever leaving somalia, and the US isn't willing to enter the country again... otherwise, this plan is TIGHT.
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ggw

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2009, 11:19:13 am »
The Chinese apparently have anti-piracy ninja dolphins.

The Chinese merchant ships escorted by a China?s fleet sailed on the Gulf of Aden when they met some suspected pirate ships. Thousands of dolphins suddenly leaped out of water between pirates and merchants when the pirate ships headed for the China?s.

The suspected pirates ships stopped and then turned away. The pirates could only lament their littleness befor the vast number of dolphins. The spectacular scene continued for a while.




http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/15/china-reports-dolphins-foiled-pirate-attack/?scp=2&sq=dolphins&st=cse

Venerable Bede

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2009, 02:11:06 pm »
The Chinese apparently have anti-piracy ninja dolphins.

The Chinese merchant ships escorted by a China?s fleet sailed on the Gulf of Aden when they met some suspected pirate ships. Thousands of dolphins suddenly leaped out of water between pirates and merchants when the pirate ships headed for the China?s.

The suspected pirates ships stopped and then turned away. The pirates could only lament their littleness befor the vast number of dolphins. The spectacular scene continued for a while.




http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/15/china-reports-dolphins-foiled-pirate-attack/?scp=2&sq=dolphins&st=cse

ahhh, this allows me to run one of my favorite onion articles...

Dolphins evolve opposable thumbs: "Oh shit" says Humanity
OU812

Venerable Bede

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2009, 03:05:56 pm »
Ron Paul- hire bounty hunters

so, constitutional scholars. . .letters of marque and reprisal? 

the other legal question- if captured by u.s. forces, what does the u.s. do with them and how are they prosecuted? 
OU812

vansmack

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 05:19:17 pm »
Ron Paul- hire bounty hunters

so, constitutional scholars. . .letters of marque and reprisal? 

I'm not really sure there's enough in it for private citizens to take on the fight.  These guys are from a fairly poor country and aren't actually working for the nation state.  They certainly aren't carrying much on their boats when they take over ships.  That would mean that the US would have to put up a bond to pay the bounty (in case you haven't seen it, there's a bunch of people out in city center with tea bags in their mouth complaining about spending), not to mention how we enforce how much regard the private citizens would show for human life (historically, letters of marque and reprisal were just for the cargo, not the crew) - I think the world is a bit advanced now to issues letters.
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sweetcell

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 06:58:55 pm »
the gov't would have to offer rewards for the capture of pirates.  new problem arises: yahoos on the high seas (new band name?!?) start capturing every somali-looking fisherman and claim they are pirates.  maybe video-taping the capture would help prevent this.  sooner or later a fire fight is going to break out, people are going to die and it'll be blackwater all over again.

as VB pointed out, there's the tricky issue of what to do with them once they're in custody.  i wonder if we'll need an amendment to the UN law of the sea, for dealing with captures in international waters?  also, what would you charge them with?  cruising around in a boat while armed isn't something anyone is in the business of stopping, AFAIK.  would the pirates have to be caught in the act of attacking a ship?
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Venerable Bede

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 07:22:49 pm »
I think the world is a bit advanced now to issues letters.

you would think the world is a bit advanced now to deal with pirates too.
OU812

vansmack

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2009, 07:32:09 pm »
I'm not quite understanding all the confusion over where to try a criminal captured in international waters - I think it's actually pretty clear cut and much easier than had he been captured in a foreign land where we didn't have extradition, like say, Somalia.  Hence why it's doubly important that the pirates never get to shore.  International law gives rights to any signing nation the right to hold a suspected criminal detained in international waters to be brought to the infringed nation without negotiating extradition.

The simple answer to fly him back to the states because the crime was committed against US interests (a US ship with US Cargo and hostile action taken against a US citizen).  There really isn't a jurisdictional question here - we just haven't enforced the law in years, but its been on the books forever.  The question then becomes federal court in Washington or federal court in NY where most African's are tried for crimes against the US.  That question is a simple jurisdiction choice, not one of unknown legal ground.

We also have the option of trying the offender in countries where we have treaties to try criminals found nearby.  At one point we had a treaty with Kenya to try criminals found in Africa that we didn't feel were worthy of extradition to America - if that treaty still exists we could do it there, but given the publicity this case received, I don't see the DoJ not bringing this case to America.

Where it does get tricky is if we intercede in a hijacking where there are no US interests (like a French cargo vessel).  We don't necessarily have to turn him over to France (why wouldn't we though?), but we wouldn't necessarily be able to try him in America either.  I'm sure the Naval Coalition has already worked all of this out, but again as long as he's found in international waters, there is no need to negotiate extradition with the suspected criminal's host nation.

As far as sweetcell's last point - yes, they would most likely have to be in the act, but something as small as impeding a ships progress can be prosecuted.
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vansmack

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Re: We sure are kicking some Somali pirate ass
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2009, 07:58:55 pm »
I think the world is a bit advanced now to issues letters.

you would think the world is a bit advanced now to deal with pirates too.

As I laid out below, we are.  We just don't use cannons any longer. 

We could go back to pirate days and send a military escort with our vessels, but we advanced to the point where we just deal with nation states to stop piracy.  You know, the old theory that trade prevents wars?

Looks like we might have ignored Somalia for a just a little too long.  I blame the Ethiopians.  We left them in charge.

Anyhow, there's really no need to let mercenaries fix the problem.  Yet.
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