Interesting stuff from yesterday's Boswell chat.....
Q.
WHO YOU GOT...
...on your team at shortstop, Ripken or Jeter?
A.
THOMAS BOSWELL :
Thanks. Talk about the Question of Questions (for today at least).
I would take Ripken, by a small margin, because he was a far better defensive player.
But most stat analysts would take Ripken by a fairly large margin. Go ahead and be shocked. I am.
Both FanGraphs and Baseball Reference have their own methods for defining the total value of a player. But they come up with similar results. They call it WAR -- Wins Above Replacement. But the acronym covers the basic fact: They think they can rank 'em (statistically) and they do.
The conclusion of both is that Ripken was one of the best defensive players in history at any position and the third-best defensive shortstop ever (behind Ozzie Smith and Mark Belanger) while Jeter is one of the very worst defensive shortstops ever. In fact, out of 546 shortstops, going back to the 19th century BaseballReferfence ranks Jeter as the 25th worst ever -- or thee 521st best, if you want to put it that way --with a NEGATIVE value in runs to his team for his defense.
Both sources consider Jeter a far better offensive player -- almost twice as good, perhaps.
This syncs with what I have said for 25 years about Ripken -- absolutely fabulous defensive player at SS, but only a good hitter. That's a main reason his streak is so valid -- would you say that Ozzie Smith should take a few days off a season if his hitting slumps a little? Of course not. His defense has enormous value, so never bench it when he's healthy.)
BaseballReference:
Ripken is the 36th best player in history (including pitchers) with a value of 95.5 wins (above an easy to acquire replacement player). Ripken ranks between Pujols and Clemente.
Jeter is the 57th best player ever with a WAR of 72.1. He's just below Larry Walker (!???) and Harry Heilman and just above Rafael Palmeiro and Johny Mize.
See, I told you it would make you want to scream -- one way or the other,
FanGraphs also has Cal as the 36th best player (including pitchers) with a value of 92.5 extra wins for his team.
Jeter is 69th with a value of 74.4 wins.
Here's the killer, for bar arguments. FanGraphs -- which carries plenty of weight in baseball these days --gives Jeeter an offensive value of +361.6 runs to Ripken's +165.4.
But on defense, Ripken is the fifth best defender in history with a value of 310.1 runs to the O's, behind only Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson, Belanger and catcher Ivan (Pudge) Rodriguez with +310.1 runs. While Jeter has a career value of -24.4 runs!
This goes right to the core of the way many teams are currently built with a big weight on sabermetrics and defensive value.
Okay, you want to know. Here are the worst defensive players in history. (Remember, the longer you play the more negative defensive WAR you can build up.) Gary Sheffield, Manny Ramirez, Frank Thomas, Adam Dunn (!) and Dave Winfield.
DAVE WINFIELD!?
?
This is why the current valuation arguments get SO loud in baseball.
And here are the five best fielding pitchers ever and their value in runs.
Maddox +185.6
Glavine 169.5
Spahn 146.7
Carlton 145
CY YOUNG +142.
Livan Hernandez is 10th despite far less innings pitched.
I'd say "discuss among yourselves" but I bet "discuss is much too mild a term.
As I said, give me Cal by a hair -- not >30 spots in all-time ranking.
