Maybe we should just elect Trump president

[ggw]

I was just being a little snarky, but if the Democrats have a cohesive and coherent plan on immigration, they are doing a really shitty job communicating it.  And in the absence of such a plan, the platform gets co-opted by those who yell loudest.

"Earlier this week, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) said that the first order of business if Democrats retake Congress should be to abolish the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency (ICE). It's a position that's increasingly en vogue among liberals after Alexandria Cortez-Ocasio's shocking upset in a New York Democratic primary last month"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2018/07/24/democrats-ice-conundrum-isnt-going-away/

[hutch]

And I agree with you.

[ye-ole-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

I was just being a little snarky, but if the Democrats have a cohesive and coherent plan on immigration, they are doing a really shitty job communicating it.  And in the absence of such a plan, the platform gets co-opted by those who yell loudest.

ok...snark noted   I just keep seeing responses about what my stance is when talking (well arguing) with tump-etts and frankly it become a big pet peeve of mine

Hutch said this years ago...the stance the dems have on immigration is a total loser

I don't have a good solution, but the fear of alienating the future Hispanic voting block is making it so they are suggesting plans like 'abolish ICE'
that will never get votes from the independents and middle America ...and lot's of Hispanic US citizens

and is pushing those who voted trump in the past to want to vote again for that kind of leadership as it's easy to paint the dems with promoting anarchy when they say stuff like that (the irony is team trump is the one going for Anarchy, but they are doing a fantastic job as painting the dems with that moniker)

[gavroche]

I was just being a little snarky, but if the Democrats have a cohesive and coherent plan on immigration, they are doing a really shitty job communicating it.  And in the absence of such a plan, the platform gets co-opted by those who yell loudest.

ok...snark noted   I just keep seeing responses about what my stance is when talking (well arguing) with tump-etts and frankly it become a big pet peeve of mine

Hutch said this years ago...the stance the dems have on immigration is a total loser

I don't have a good solution, but the fear of alienating the future Hispanic voting block is making it so they are suggesting plans like 'abolish ICE'
that will never get votes from the independents and middle America ...and lot's of Hispanic US citizens

and is pushing those who voted trump in the past to want to vote again for that kind of leadership as it's easy to paint the dems with promoting anarchy when they say stuff like that (the irony is team trump is the one going for Anarchy, but they are doing a fantastic job as painting the dems with that moniker)

Democratic leadership is not pushing abolish Ice.  Democratic leadership wanted Crowley to beat Ocasio-Cortez. 

Abolish ICE gained traction with progressives because it is an easy slogan to highlight lots of the problems with our immigration enforcement. The Dems don't have a plan because plans are complicated and hard to explain. 

[ye-ole-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

Democratic leadership is not pushing abolish Ice.  Democratic leadership wanted Crowley to beat Ocasio-Cortez. 
Abolish ICE gained traction with progressives because it is an easy slogan to highlight lots of the problems with our immigration enforcement. The Dems don't have a plan because plans are complicated and hard to explain.

Great point...hard to sum it up in a bumper sticker slogan
We do have to dumb it down messaging wise, but we could leverage the web to get the details on the plan, but a great slogan is critical

I think Medicare for all is a winner...kinda of feel like they started to run with that, but faded

yeah, the right has pretty much tried to use Ocasio-Cortez as a scare tactic..."See, this is what ALL Dems want, if you don't vote for us her platform WILL be the dem platfom"...which as you said is far from the truth

[ggw]

So the mainstream DNC message is, "we don't really want to abolish ICE but our true plans are too complicated and difficult to explain to you"?

That should play really well in a week or two when the caravan reaches the US border.

The US is currently run by the worst president in history, and the Dems can't seem to get their shit together. It would be comical if it weren't so sad.

[gavroche]

I think Schumer and Pelosi are horribly ineffective.  That said, I do think that the move to run on health care is a smart one for the Dems. 

The people who vote on immigration are already going to vote for R's, so why focus your energy there?  It's like EW taking that ancestry test.  Especially since you are just going to piss off the Democrat diehards who actually do want to abolish ICE and start over? 

With Healthcare the Dems can go on offense.  It clearly has the R's scared, or else they wouldn't all be lying about their positions and their votes.  It polls well, and people are starting to understand it.

As for Trump... he might be a horrible president, but he's a good politician and the economy is doing well (sort of).  Plus there are a lot of structrural advantages the R's have. 

Look, I'm terrified about this election but I would MUCH rather it was waged on health care than anything else.

[hutch]

Agree

How hard would it be for senior democrats in Congress to call a press conference and make clear the party stance on caravans, illegals etc while pushing back on the lunacy of being afraid of a group of poor Latinos walking from Honduras for a better life?

Instead they allow Trump to paint them as pro open borders

[ye-ole-hatch ıll|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|̲̅̅=̲̅̅|̲̅̅●̲̅̅|llıl]

good stuff people!!
this was one of the most insightful back and forths I've seen anywhere!

unfortunately the people in power are not listening to this and who ever is giving them advice should be fired

[gavroche]

Agree

How hard would it be for senior democrats in Congress to call a press conference and make clear the party stance on caravans, illegals etc while pushing back on the lunacy of being afraid of a group of poor Latinos walking from Honduras for a better life?

Instead they allow Trump to paint them as pro open borders

What should the stance be on caravans?  It is a group of migrant families (many from country's like Hondorus where the Sec of State Hillary Clinton supported a military coupe) walking to the border together for protection so that they can legally demand asylum in the US.  And how do you diffuse the situation without just sounding like Trump light?

And even if Schumer did this, there are enough Abolish Ice House Dems running that no one would believe it is the "Democratic."

[ggw]

The caravan is going to get near the border and the Republicans are going to say that most of the 3 million Hondurans, Guatemalans, and Salvadorans already living in the US are here illegally (which is true) and then they are going to point to the caravan of Hondurans, Guatemalans, and Salvadorans at the border and say that the Democrats want to abolish ICE and let them all in. The Dems will scramble to come up with a response, but they will fear alienating the crucial Millennial vote, so they will make some vague comments that don't really say whether they favor abolishing ICE or not and the Republicans will pounce on it.

[gavroche]

The Dems answer is going to be that we need to have a comprehensive immigration solution.  Which of course means nothing to anyone.

What can the Dems say that you think insulates them from the Republican attack?
 
There is definitely not anything that is humane or nuanced that will work for the middle.

So that leaves tacking right.  Even if Schumer does that by saying the caravan should be stopped or we should have less immigrants Trump will just double down and say that his wall would have solved this and the Dems obstructed it.

I still think the Dems are best trying to crowd the caravan out with other issues.  Push voter suppression, push health care, push Trump's lying, push Trump being in bed with the Saudi's.  FOX news of course is going to be all over the caravan but there is no winning for the Dems by drawing more coverage to it.

[Julian, Forum COGNOSCENTI]

The Dems will scramble to come up with a response, but they will fear alienating the crucial Millennial vote, so they will make some vague comments that don't really say whether they favor abolishing ICE or not and the Republicans will pounce on it.

Correct. Because Republicans fall in line with their party and Democratic voters do not. Mainstream Democrats have to constantly give up the middle because the human garbage that is the Bernie Bros won't show up and vote unless the Democratic platform is endless virtue signalling. It would be nice if the progressive wing of the party -- which fancies themselves the smartest people in the room -- understood they actually need to win elections to do things. Say "we agree, we need tough borders and cannot tolerate illegals" then once you win actually go about enacting your real agenda. You know, like the GOP does every time.

[gavroche]

The Dems will scramble to come up with a response, but they will fear alienating the crucial Millennial vote, so they will make some vague comments that don't really say whether they favor abolishing ICE or not and the Republicans will pounce on it.

Correct. Because Republicans fall in line with their party and Democratic voters do not. Mainstream Democrats have to constantly give up the middle because the human garbage that is the Bernie Bros won't show up and vote unless the Democratic platform is endless virtue signalling. It would be nice if the progressive wing of the party -- which fancies themselves the smartest people in the room -- understood they actually need to win elections to do things. Say "we agree, we need tough borders and cannot tolerate illegals" then once you win actually go about enacting your real agenda. You know, like the GOP does every time.

I think you have the way the GOP is working backwards.  The GOP moderate wing has either been snuffed out (Corker and Flake) or decided to go along with the racism and hate of the far right, because for them it is a small price to pay to pass otherwise unpopular tax cuts that distribute billions of dollars of additional wealth up.  The Muslim ban, immigration crackdowns, etc... the GOP has already given abandoned the center. 

Obama did the exact opposite of what you are describing. He ran on a moderately progressive platform (close Guantanamo and public option for instance) and then he moved center once in office. The strategy didn't get the D's any additional voters in the 2010 midterms.

The question for the Dems is whether they better off energizing their base by going left or trying to broaden to get Trump voters by moving to the center.  A corollary is does moving to the center on issues like immigration even attract Trump voters, or are they actually more attracted to a move left on things like health care where polling for Medicare for all is actually high?

 Jury is still out.

[grateful]

FWIW,  the actual caravan is still 1,200 miles away.