Author Topic: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul  (Read 43393 times)

vansmack

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2008, 08:00:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
  BTW, does anybody have anything to say about NH last night???
Other than what's being said in my thread (and to get this thread back in track) - if Ron Paul can't garner more than 7.7% in the "Live Free or Die" State, we no longer need to concern oursleves with this man.
27>34

Frank Gallagher

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2008, 08:03:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by vansmack:
   
Quote
Originally posted by E Redux:
   
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Show me a better one...
 
Ireland is an example of a better one... no electoral college to overule the popular vote, and they do  instant run-off voting so that voters can support alternative candidates without 'throwing their vote away' [/b]
Unless something revolutionary happened overnight that I'm not aware of, Ireland is a parlimentary democracy, so at least one head of state is not directly elected by the people. [/b]
Ireland isn't really a good example because there's one party inparticular that if they don't like your political beliefs.....they kill you, which isn't very democratic either.
 
 
 Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy  
 Pronunciation: \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\
 Function: noun
 Inflected Form(s): plural de·moc·ra·cies
 Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dēmokratia, from dēmos + -kratia -cracy
 Date: 1576
 1 a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
 2: a political unit that has a democratic government
 3capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracyâ?? C. M. Roberts>
 4: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
 5: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges
 
 It may be the best system, but it's still not a democracy is it? As long as the popular vote does not decide, then it will never be a democracy...

Venerable Bede

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2008, 08:42:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
 
 
 
 Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy  
 Pronunciation: \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\
 Function: noun
 Inflected Form(s): plural de·moc·ra·cies
 Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dēmokratia, from dēmos + -kratia -cracy
 Date: 1576
 1 a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
 2: a political unit that has a democratic government
 3capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracyâ?? C. M. Roberts>
 4: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
 5: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges
 
 It may be the best system, but it's still not a democracy is it? As long as the popular vote does not decide, then it will never be a democracy...
i might note that except for the election of president, we do live in a representative democracy, as evidenced by the U.S. Congress and state legislatures.  Perhaps this definition will help you understand the basics of our form of government-
 
 American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Federalism
 
 A system of government in which power is divided between a national (federal) government and various regional governments. As defined by the United States Constitution, federalism is a fundamental aspect of American government, whereby the states are not merely regional representatives of the federal government, but are granted independent powers and responsibilities. With their own legislative branch, executive branch, and judicial branch, states are empowered to pass, enforce, and interpret laws, provided they do not violate the Constitution. This arrangement not only allows state governments to respond directly to the interests of their local populations, but also serves to check the power of the federal government. Whereas the federal government determines foreign policy, with exclusive power to make treaties, declare war, and control imports and exports, the states have exclusive power to ratify the Constitution. Most governmental responsibilities, however, are shared by state and federal governments: both levels are involved in such public policy issues as taxation, business regulation, environmental protection, and civil rights.
 
 under said federalist system of government, power vested with the states include holding and operating elections, not the federal government.  the electoral college is there to allow for each state to have a say in the election of the president, and not the population centers, which could otherwise dominate the vote.
 
 we could go back and forth over whether the electoral college is a quaint relic of the 18th century and their concerns about a popular vote for president, but it's there, and it means every state has a vote, and that state represents the people that live there.
OU812

Frank Gallagher

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2008, 10:39:00 am »
2000 Presidential election results, popular vote.
 
 Bush - 50,456,002 47.87%
 Gore - 50,999,897 48.38%
 Nader - 2,882,955 2.74%
 
 Remind me again what a democracy is?
 
 It may be a 'representative' government, but not a democratic one, that's all I'm saying. And I don't agree with your 'states have a say' comment, if they do, then every state should have the same number of electoral votes. Why should CA have 54 electoral votes and DC 2? Is DC any less important than CA when it comes to electing a president? And lets say the democratic candidate got 28% of the CA popular vote, shouldn't he/she then be awarded 28% of that states electoral college vote too?
 
 
 1 voter - 1 vote, it doesn't get any more equal than that now does it? I don't give a toss what states are red or blue, it's what Americans want as a whole that matters....isn't it?

Venerable Bede

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2008, 01:58:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
 
 It may be a 'representative' government, but not a democratic one, that's all I'm saying. And I don't agree with your 'states have a say' comment, if they do, then every state should have the same number of electoral votes. Why should CA have 54 electoral votes and DC 2? Is DC any less important than CA when it comes to electing a president? And lets say the democratic candidate got 28% of the CA popular vote, shouldn't he/she then be awarded 28% of that states electoral college vote too?
 
california gets more because there's more people in it than d.c. (electoral college numbers are based on congressional seats plus 2 for the senate).  the house is based on population, but each state gets two senators (except for d.c. and the territories, since they aren't states).  
 
 as for apportioning electoral college votes, that is up to the state. . .most states have a winner take all format, two states (nebraska and maine) apportion them out by congressional district (whoever wins the vote in that congressional district, gets that electoral vote), with the 2 extra votes going to the overall winner of the state.  if you want your state to apportion delegates by vote percentages, then get it on the ballot.  my guess is that the parties don't want proportional voting, as evidenced by the vocal opposition of california democrats to the attempt by some parties associated with republicans in california to move to congressional apportioning of electoral delegates (and the republican's - i think - going against a similiar measure that was defeated in colorado in 2004).
OU812

HoyaSaxa03

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2008, 02:02:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
 And I don't agree with your 'states have a say' comment, if they do, then every state should have the same number of electoral votes. Why should CA have 54 electoral votes and DC 2?
this completely invalidates any opinion you could ever express on this matter ... do some basic reading about the history of the country in which you live, federalism, the apportionment of representatives in the House and the Senate, and the electoral college, then get back to us
 
 you could start here
(o|o)

Frank Gallagher

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2008, 04:05:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
 And I don't agree with your 'states have a say' comment, if they do, then every state should have the same number of electoral votes. Why should CA have 54 electoral votes and DC 2?
this completely invalidates any opinion you could ever express on this matter ... do some basic reading about the history of the country in which you live, federalism, the apportionment of representatives in the House and the Senate, and the electoral college, then get back to us
 
 you could start here [/b]
How can you invalidate an opinion??? It's a fucking "opinion" You can disagree or argue against, but you can't invalidate it.
 
 I think you're missing my point. I don't have a problem with the US system of government (Well, apart from the electoral college bit) I'm just saying it's not a true democracy so saying it's the greatest democracy in the world isn't exactly correct.....not unlike seperation of church and state even though the dollar bill says "IN GOD WE TRUST"...that shouldn't be legal tender for the atheist citizens of the USA if there really was seperation of church and state.
 
 BTW - I HAD to take an American government class to become an American, which I don't think you did, so you don't need to link me up to referance material, but thank you anyway...
 
 Back to the electoral college...this 28% of CA voters basically had their ballots "invalidated" and thrown into the trash..........no? I wonder how the judicial system would work if 72% of the jury chose guilty and 28% not guilty so the charged is found guilty and sentenced as such? And yes, I do believe it's a good comparison.

Brian_Wallace

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2008, 04:16:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
 And I don't agree with your 'states have a say' comment, if they do, then every state should have the same number of electoral votes. Why should CA have 54 electoral votes and DC 2?
this completely invalidates any opinion you could ever express on this matter ... do some basic reading about the history of the country in which you live, federalism, the apportionment of representatives in the House and the Senate, and the electoral college, then get back to us
 
 you could start here [/b]
"Hoya Paranoia."  Do you personally think the Electoral College is a fair way to elect a president?
 
 Brian

HoyaSaxa03

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2008, 04:29:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
 How can you invalidate an opinion??? It's a fucking "opinion" You can disagree or argue against, but you can't invalidate it.
in·val·i·date
 1. to render invalid; discredit.
 
 sorry to burst your bubble, but opinions can be both validated and invalidated
 
 your opinion about our representative democracy was discredited or invalidated by your complete lack of knowledge about how our system of government works ("Why should CA have 54 electoral votes and DC 2? Is DC any less important than CA when it comes to electing a president?")
 
 any teenager who's taken a civics class could handle that one
(o|o)

Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2008, 04:32:00 pm »
So does that mean if I don't know how to play a note of music, my opinions on various albums are invalid?
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
 
 
 your opinion about our representative democracy was discredited or invalidated by your complete lack of knowledge about how our system of government works

HoyaSaxa03

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2008, 04:35:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Brian Wallace:
 "Hoya Paranoia."  Do you personally think the Electoral College is a fair way to elect a president?
eh, part of me thinks that it's a relic of a bygone era that has outlived its usefulness, and that with modern technology we can remove many of these relics of representative democracy and put more direct power in the hands of the people
 
 but then my misanthropic side says we should do just about anything to keep power out of the hands of the slack-jawed masses and let technocrats handle the business of the country ... but that's clearly just a knee-jerk reaction to the teeming hordes of obese jean-shorted tourists i see around all the time
(o|o)

HoyaSaxa03

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2008, 04:37:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Charlie Nakatestes,Japanese Golfer:
  So does that mean if I don't know how to play a note of music, my opinions on various albums are invalid?
nice logical leap, but clearly not ... i didn't say that mankie had to be an elected official in order to "validate" his opinion
(o|o)

Frank Gallagher

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2008, 05:00:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Hoya Paranoia:
   
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
 How can you invalidate an opinion??? It's a fucking "opinion" You can disagree or argue against, but you can't invalidate it.
in·val·i·date
 1. to render invalid; discredit.
 
 sorry to burst your bubble, but opinions can be both validated and invalidated
 
 your opinion about our representative democracy was discredited or invalidated by your complete lack of knowledge about how our system of government works ("Why should CA have 54 electoral votes and DC 2? Is DC any less important than CA when it comes to electing a president?")
 
 any teenager who's taken a civics class could handle that one [/b]
Okay then, point taken, but in 2000 in CA Bush had 4,567,429 votes and 42%, Gore 5,861,203 and 53% and Nader 418,707 and 4%...using your logic that DC is less important than CA because it's smaller and less populated, then use that same logic for the electoral college system, 4,986,136, or 46% of the voters in CA in 2000 are less important because their vote meant absolutely diddly-squat.
 
 And why should DC be less important than CA just because it's smaller and less populated?

HoyaSaxa03

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Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2008, 05:24:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
  using your logic that DC is less important than CA because it's smaller and less populated
that is not "my logic"
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
  And why should DC be less important than CA just because it's smaller and less populated?
DC is in a unique situation, so essentially you're comparing apples to oranges ... substitute for DC a small state like Delaware and you have one of the essential issues confronting our founders while drafting the Constitution ...
 
 their solution was to create a bicameral legislative system whereby one branch, the Senate, had a fixed and equal number of representatives from each state (ensuring that residents of small states would have a voice) and the other branch, the House, had its number of representatives from each state determined proportionately by the population of each state (a more pure representative democracy)
(o|o)

Re: Dennis Kucinich vs. Ron Paul
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2008, 05:25:00 pm »
Because the people from CA (aside from the CA dweebs who post on this board   :p  ) are hotter than the people of DC.
 
 
Quote
Originally posted by Brain Walrus:
 
 
 And why should DC be less important than CA just because it's smaller and less populated? [/QB]