Kerry is unfit, homosexuality is a sin

[PigIron]

If you were born here, you are a Native American.  I was born in PA, USA.  Im Native American.  If you have ancestors that were native to this continent before whitey showed up, you are American Indian.  I have Choctaw blood, so Im Native American.
 As far as the sports teams go, its just a bit (no sarcasm, I swear) insulting that ethnicity is used to market something that you have no control over.  Most American Indians dont give a shit.

[hitman]

Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
 [QB] http://www.nativeamericandanceoutfits.bizhosting.com/
 
 
 Sorry, I had the name of the website wrong.
 
 When black people call each other "niggaz", seldom is it meant as an insult.
 
 
 When white people call other white people "honkey" or "cracker" (Do people actually use these terms anymore?), it's almost always meant as a term of derision, and usually it's a rich I'm better than you liberal using the terms toward working class southerners.
 
 So the "well black people call each other niggas" argument really doesn't correlate.
 
 

 You may feel that it doesn't correlate, but that's your opinion.  I feel that it does.  No matter if you put a vowel on the end or not, the origin of the word has a very negative connotation.  So it shouldn't be acceptible no matter what.  Therefore it is a racial slur, and no racial slurs, or any derivation should be acceptable.  I have many black people that I am friends with and none of them feel that no matter how you use the word, it isn't acceptable.  This seems to be something that has really grown out of the hip-hop culture over the past several years.

[hitman]

Originally posted by Arthwys:
  First of all, how the heck can a name like Redskins be seen as offensive when on many offical documents European Americans are referred to as White?  And as for the argument that some Native Americans get offended by terms like Chief and Brave are used outside tribal context...Those words are  English terms, not the actual native title used for their respective positions in native american society.  And just cuz i hate PC that much, i'll throw in that I think that this whole row over native americans as mascots is the dumbest thing ever.  The whole point of a mascot is to find an object, person, or animal that you would want you team to either emulate or be associated with.  Why? Because that mascot is respected, has honor and prestige.  If i were native american i'd find it pretty flattering that sports teams all over the country would like to be seen to be as tough and honorable and imposing as the warriors of my ancestors were known to be.  
 
 On a side note, did anyone else read about how the Guvernator just vetoed some bill about banning names like those we've been discussing in this thread?  Go Arnold, even if your official reasoning behind it is a bit off.

But there's part of the problem.  All of these mascots are meant to stir up visions of warriors and the like.  There is much more to Native American society, culture, and ancestry that being in battles and going to war.  That is just a result of too many B-Western movies blowing things way out of proportion in the 30's-60's.
 
 And when it comes down to it, I am just as offended at being considered white, instead of caucasian.  So on those kinds of forms, I check other instead.  It's like the kids I teach and talking about skin tones.  I ask the so-called "white" and "black" kids to look in the mirror.  Then choose the color that best matches your skin.  None of them pick up the black or white crayon.

[Arthwys]

Excellent, hitman.  Good to get a serious response instead of yelled at like i anticipated.  Yeah, even as I wrote the words i was thinking..."hmm, this is rather overemphasising one part of the culture" but hey, not my prob if people are too ignorant to realize that there's more to Native Americans than whooping warriors.  Also, i think still using the term white is bogus too, but for that matter, so is caucasian :  :roll:  .
 
 But whatever!  I think i'll stop debating all this and let the board get back to discussing music...which is ostensibly it's purpose.  It was just too tempting to let this topic go by w/o throwing in my 2 cents or so.

[Charlie Nakatestes, Japanese Golfer]

casinos, alcoholism...
 
 I joke, I joke!
 
 

Originally posted by Arthwys:
  that there's more to Native Americans than whooping warriors.
 

[Celeste]

I like that sweet bread they serve with honey...

[hitman]

I don't have any Native American in my lineage that I know of at all.  I guess that I take this all to heart because I spent the summer of '97 taking sixth graders all through the four corner states in the southwest as part of a government program called People to People.  Of course the largest concentration of the trip was centered on Native American history and culture.  And it just really struck me getting to learn about everything (to the point that I continue reading about their culture today).  But perhaps what struck me the most is how they live, especially the land that was taken away from them, and how they're forced to live in that region still today.  I have tremendous respect for these people, their customs/beliefs, and their way of life.

[Jaguär]

Originally posted by hitman:
   

Originally posted by Arthwys:
  First of all, how the heck can a name like Redskins be seen as offensive when on many offical documents European Americans are referred to as White?  And as for the argument that some Native Americans get offended by terms like Chief and Brave are used outside tribal context...Those words are  English terms, not the actual native title used for their respective positions in native american society.  And just cuz i hate PC that much, i'll throw in that I think that this whole row over native americans as mascots is the dumbest thing ever.  The whole point of a mascot is to find an object, person, or animal that you would want you team to either emulate or be associated with.  Why? Because that mascot is respected, has honor and prestige.  If i were native american i'd find it pretty flattering that sports teams all over the country would like to be seen to be as tough and honorable and imposing as the warriors of my ancestors were known to be.  
 
 On a side note, did anyone else read about how the Guvernator just vetoed some bill about banning names like those we've been discussing in this thread?  Go Arnold, even if your official reasoning behind it is a bit off.

But there's part of the problem.  All of these mascots are meant to stir up visions of warriors and the like.  There is much more to Native American society, culture, and ancestry that being in battles and going to war.  That is just a result of too many B-Western movies blowing things way out of proportion in the 30's-60's.
 
 And when it comes down to it, I am just as offended at being considered white, instead of caucasian.  So on those kinds of forms, I check other instead.  It's like the kids I teach and talking about skin tones.  I ask the so-called "white" and "black" kids to look in the mirror.  Then choose the color that best matches your skin.  None of them pick up the black or white crayon. [/b]

Then by that logic, I should be offended by the term "the fighting Irish".   :roll:  
 
 Personally, I'm much more offended by American football than I am by the use of that part of my lineage. I'm not so hyper-sensitive to such an unrealistic degree to assume that anything derogatory is meant. In general, Irish people are known to be very passionate and have short fuses. So what? I can deal with it. A 'fighting spirit' is what's needed to win a game of football. That's the part that bothers me. The football mentality part, which is why I can't stand football. They've found that quality in the Irish and it suits the history of the school. In the meantime, I also understand that though I hate the warrior mentality, it's also sometimes needed for survival.
 
 I wonder if the animals depicted on a totem pole are offended because whatever kind of Indians you want to call them use these animals to represent the qualities of those particular animals?

[hitman]

Originally posted by Jaguär:
   

[/b]

I wonder if the animals depicted on a totem pole are offended because whatever kind of Indians you want to call them use these animals to represent the qualities of those particular animals? [/QB]

We aren't talking about PETA here.  Those customs are much older than anything PC or PETA.

[eltee]

My mom just returned from what she called, the, "Native American Indian Museum". I guess she's trying to be PC all around.      My grandfather was the first white (Caucasian) man to be inducted into the Blackfoot tribe in MT. When the story was told to me as a kid, it seemed very honorable, his induction. Turns out he just got drunk w/ the tribe and they gave him honorary membership.

Originally posted by econo:
  The Native American Museum has recently opened.
 
     

Originally posted by Rhett Miller:
 And while I'm on the topic of loons, I just saw a bunch of fat guys walking around the mall wearing outfits that they looked like they picked up at cherokeenation.com. Did Halloween come early this year, or did the Redskins finally win a game?

[/b]

[flawd101]

15% of american indians live on reservations.
 
 all i can think about is naive american...this whole topic is stupid.  just live your life, don't worry about stupid shit like this.  think about what your are having for dinner and be happy for it.  don't spend life being offended by retarded little words.  its only a fucking word.  its not like indians are still being persecuted and killed.  why don't they sue diseases like small pox that destroyed almost90% of their population...

[hitman]

Originally posted by flawd101:
  15% of american indians live on reservations.
 
 all i can think about is naive american...this whole topic is stupid.  just live your life, don't worry about stupid shit like this.  think about what your are having for dinner and be happy for it.  don't spend life being offended by retarded little words.  its only a fucking word.  its not like indians are still being persecuted and killed.  why don't they sue diseases like small pox that destroyed almost90% of their population...

I would like to see what kind of response these comments would have gotten if they were changed just a bit and directed at someone who was a member of the NAACP?  They would be outraged and demeaned.

[Jaguär]

Originally posted by hitman:
     

Originally posted by Jaguär:
     

[/b]

I wonder if the animals depicted on a totem pole are offended because whatever kind of Indians you want to call them use these animals to represent the qualities of those particular animals? [/b]

We aren't talking about PETA here.  Those customs are much older than anything PC or PETA.

You still don't get it, do you?
 
 It has nothing whatsover to do with animal rights. It was showing how asinine it is to get all offended over some mascots and terminology while Indians use representations for the same exact things in their own ways. They just use animals instead of people. Sure, there are some terms that are offensive but they are the ones that are usually intended to be offensive in the first place.
 
 And if you think that I'm being PC, then you don't know me at all. I totally detest politcal correctness! It's nothing but a government condoned form of bullying and censorship. There's tolerance and consideration and then there's political correctness. They are not the same in my book of etiquette.
 
 I miss Mankie!!!
           

[hitman]

I guess YOU don't get SARCASM either.  After such a debate, do you think that I would bring up PETA as a serious response.  THINK!  But I guess that is difficult for one, who basically writes that humans are equal to animals when comparing using derogatory terms or depictions of animals to that of using the same for a race, and saying they are similar.  Let alone the fact that those symbolic depictions that you dicuss are part of a native cultural language going back thousands upon thousands of years ago and don't help to make the point you were attempting to.
 
 Got ya loud and clear now.

[flawd101]

i got a peta letter today...
 
 they send a nickel and a little true false thing in order to be fucked with.  
 
 if that chick setting up the mailing thingy wasn't hot....if they didnt have cool contests....whenever i see those animal cruelty videos i want fried chicken....