Author Topic: DC Area Voters  (Read 142429 times)

Sage 703

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #255 on: February 21, 2008, 01:13:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, good manners AFICIONADO:
   
Quote
Originally posted by callat703:
 
 You also were either a) wrong, or b) lying when you tried to represent that the only pieces of legislation that Obama was involved in related to a post office and recognition of the Congo (the quote, if I need remind you: "On the other hand, Obama has exactly 2 such pieces of legislation during the same time: one encouraging the DRC to take up democracy and one naming a post office.")  So which is it?  Ignorance, or dishonesty?
 
I said Hilary since '04 had 21 pieces of legislation that she wrote that in fact passed and became law. Not bills she co-sponsored. So when I said Obama had "2 such pieces of legislation during the same time period" I was referring to 2 bills that he wrote and in fact passed, which is accurate. I was not counting bills either co-sponsored, but did not author. In that category, Hillary has 150 in this legislative period and 500 in her career. Obama's number is dwarfed by that, obviously. [/b]
You're deliberately distorting the truth.  Nobody is questioning whether or not Hillary has authored or sponsored more bills.  Nobody is questioning the fact that Hillary has more experience as a legislator and a member of the Washington set.  But don't selectively pick and choose what you are going to represent as experience.  Look at the big picture.

Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #256 on: February 21, 2008, 01:17:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by callat703:
  Nobody is questioning the fact that Hillary has more experience as a legislator and a member of the Washington set.  But don't selectively pick and choose what you are going to represent as experience.  Look at the big picture.
I'm sorry, I was under the impression the "big picture" should be able to be qualified by actions, stats and facts as opposed to warm fuzz feelings like "HopeChange." When someone claims to be a free-thinker and a consensus builder, I'd like some examples to hang my hat on of their record of building consensus on free-thinking ideas that they came up with, not bird flu reform, renaming post offices, and shoutouts to Africa. Perhaps he should've used his HopeChange consensus building for something a bit more substantive then co-sponsoring bills everyone agreed with to begin with.

Sage 703

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #257 on: February 21, 2008, 01:18:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, good manners AFICIONADO:
   
Quote
Originally posted by callat703:
  Nobody is questioning the fact that Hillary has more experience as a legislator and a member of the Washington set.  But don't selectively pick and choose what you are going to represent as experience.  Look at the big picture.
I'm sorry, I was under the impression the "big picture" should be able to be qualified by actions, stats and facts as opposed to warm fuzz feelings like "HopeChange." When someone claims to be a free-thinker and a consensus builder, I'd like some examples to hang my hat on of their record of building consensus on free-thinking ideas that they came up with, not bird flu reform, renaming post offices, and shoutouts to Africa. Perhaps he should've used his HopeChange consensus building for something a bit more substantive then co-sponsoring bills everyone agreed with to begin with. [/b]
Again, you don't see this as selectively choosing what you're going to represent as experience?

Sage 703

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #258 on: February 21, 2008, 01:22:00 pm »
Washington Post, January 4:
 
 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303303.html
 
 People who complain that Barack Obama lacks experience must be unaware of his legislative achievements. One reason these accomplishments are unfamiliar is that the media have not devoted enough attention to Obama's bills and the effort required to pass them, ignoring impressive, hard evidence of his character and ability.
 
 Since most of Obama's legislation was enacted in Illinois, most of the evidence is found there -- and it has been largely ignored by the media in a kind of Washington snobbery that assumes state legislatures are not to be taken seriously. (Another factor is reporters' fascination with the horse race at the expense of substance that they assume is boring, a fascination that despite being ridiculed for years continues to dominate political journalism.)
 
 I am a rarity among Washington journalists in that I have served in a state legislature. I know from my time in the West Virginia legislature that the challenges faced by reform-minded state representatives are no less, if indeed not more, formidable than those encountered in Congress. For me, at least, trying to deal with those challenges involved as much drama as any election. And the "heart and soul" bill, the one for which a legislator gives everything he or she has to get passed, has long told me more than anything else about a person's character and ability.
 
 Consider a bill into which Obama clearly put his heart and soul. The problem he wanted to address was that too many confessions, rather than being voluntary, were coerced -- by beating the daylights out of the accused.
 
 Obama proposed requiring that interrogations and confessions be videotaped.
 
 This seemed likely to stop the beatings, but the bill itself aroused immediate opposition. There were Republicans who were automatically tough on crime and Democrats who feared being thought soft on crime. There were death penalty abolitionists, some of whom worried that Obama's bill, by preventing the execution of innocents, would deprive them of their best argument. Vigorous opposition came from the police, too many of whom had become accustomed to using muscle to "solve" crimes. And the incoming governor, Rod Blagojevich, announced that he was against it.
 
 Obama had his work cut out for him.
 
 He responded with an all-out campaign of cajolery. It had not been easy for a Harvard man to become a regular guy to his colleagues. Obama had managed to do so by playing basketball and poker with them and, most of all, by listening to their concerns. Even Republicans came to respect him. One Republican state senator, Kirk Dillard, has said that "Barack had a way both intellectually and in demeanor that defused skeptics."
 
 The police proved to be Obama's toughest opponent. Legislators tend to quail when cops say things like, "This means we won't be able to protect your children." The police tried to limit the videotaping to confessions, but Obama, knowing that the beatings were most likely to occur during questioning, fought -- successfully -- to keep interrogations included in the required videotaping.
 
 By showing officers that he shared many of their concerns, even going so far as to help pass other legislation they wanted, he was able to quiet the fears of many.
 
 Obama proved persuasive enough that the bill passed both houses of the legislature, the Senate by an incredible 35 to 0. Then he talked Blagojevich into signing the bill, making Illinois the first state to require such videotaping.
 
 Obama didn't stop there. He played a major role in passing many other bills, including the state's first earned-income tax credit to help the working poor and the first ethics and campaign finance law in 25 years (a law a Post story said made Illinois "one of the best in the nation on campaign finance disclosure"). Obama's commitment to ethics continued in the U.S. Senate, where he co-authored the new lobbying reform law that, among its hard-to-sell provisions, requires lawmakers to disclose the names of lobbyists who "bundle" contributions for them.
 
 Taken together, these accomplishments demonstrate that Obama has what Dillard, the Republican state senator, calls a "unique" ability "to deal with extremely complex issues, to reach across the aisle and to deal with diverse people." In other words, Obama's campaign claim that he can persuade us to rise above what divides us is not just rhetoric.
 
 I do not think that a candidate's legislative record is the only measure of presidential potential, simply that Obama's is revealing enough to merit far more attention than it has received. Indeed, the media have been equally delinquent in reporting the legislative achievements of Hillary Clinton and John Edwards, both of whom spent years in the U.S. Senate. The media should compare their legislative records to Obama's, devoting special attention to their heart-and-soul bills and how effective each was in actually making law.
 
 Charles Peters, the founding editor of the Washington Monthly, is president of Understanding Government, a foundation devoted to better government through better reporting.

godsshoeshine

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #259 on: February 21, 2008, 01:26:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, good manners AFICIONADO:
   
Quote
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
 what about super bowl 36
Shoeshine, I went to the Orange Bowl with Tommy Brady. I knew Tommy Brady; Tommy Brady was a hero of mine. Shoeshine, Obama's no Tommy Brady.
 
 Alternate response: Obama's got a George F. Will in the McCain camp and taped his debate walkthrough? That's awesome! [/b]
actually i'm hoping barack's more eli manning
o/\o

Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #260 on: February 21, 2008, 01:27:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by callat703:
  Again, you don't see this as selectively choosing what you're going to represent as experience?
I look at it this way. If I'm a NBA basketball coach or GM and I'm considering new players, what's the best way to decide what players to draft? To ask the players if they're good at basketball? Or, perhaps, seeing the footage of them in college and reviewing stats and seeing how well they did and what skills they have?
 
 If you want to compete at sports at the highest level, you should have a track record of success at lower levels. Obama's legislative experience is small and relatively unimpressive. To say Obama was highly successful at building unity or passing tough legislation is disingenuous. And all this, he was President of Harvard Law Review and a lawyer stuff, is about like drafting a basketball player based on how good a lacrosse player he was. Yeah, both are athletes and some of that skill is going to carry over, but I'd really want a bit more then that to hang my franchise's (or country's) future on.

Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #261 on: February 21, 2008, 01:28:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
  actually i'm hoping barack's more eli manning
Eli Manning was in Super Bowl 36? Barack Obama's gawky looking?

Sage 703

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #262 on: February 21, 2008, 01:32:00 pm »
New York Times, July 30, 2007
 
 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/us/politics/30obama.html
 
 
 In Illinois, Obama Proved Pragmatic and Shrewd
 
 By JANNY SCOTT
 Published: July 30, 2007
 
 There was something improbable about the new guy from Chicago via Honolulu and Jakarta, Indonesia, the one with the Harvard law degree and the job teaching constitutional law, turning up in Springfield, Ill., in January 1997 among the housewives, ex-mayors and occasional soybean farmer serving in the State Senate.
 
 The new senator, Barack Obama, was a progressive Democrat in a time of tight Republican control. He was a former community organizer in a place where power is famously held by a few. He was a neophyte promising reform in a culture that a University of Illinois political studies professor describes as ??really tough and, frankly, still quite corrupt.?
 
 ??One of my first comments to Barack was, ??What the hell are you doing here??? ? said Denny Jacobs, a former senator and self-described ??backroom politician, not one of those do-gooders that stands up front and says we got to make changes.?
 
 Senator Obama??s answer? ??He looked at me sort of strange.?
 
 Mr. Obama did not bring revolution to Springfield in his eight years in the Senate, the longest chapter in his short public life. But he turned out to be practical and shrewd, a politician capable of playing hardball to win election (he squeezed every opponent out of his first race), a legislator with a sharp eye for an opportunity, a strategist willing to compromise to accomplish things.
 
 He positioned himself early on as a protégé of the powerful Democratic leader, Senator Emil Jones, a beneficiary of the Chicago political machine. He courted collaboration with Republicans. He endured hazing from a few black colleagues, played poker with lobbyists, studiously took up golf. (??An awful lot happens on the golf course,? a friend, Jean Rudd, says he told her.)
 
 By the time he left Springfield in 2004, he had built not only the connections necessary to win election to the United States Senate but a record not inconsistent with his lofty rhetoric of consensus building and bipartisanship.
 
 ??He came with a huge dose of practicality,? said Paul L. Williams, a lobbyist in Springfield and former state representative who is a supporter of Mr. Obama for the Democratic presidential nomination. Mr. Williams characterized Mr. Obama??s attitude as, ??O.K., that makes sense and sounds great, as I??d like to go to the moon, but right now I??ve only got enough gas to go this far.?
 
 With the assistance of Senator Jones, Mr. Obama helped deliver what is said to have been the first significant campaign finance reform law in Illinois in 25 years. He brought law enforcement groups around to back legislation requiring that homicide interrogations be taped and helped bring about passage of the state??s first racial-profiling law. He was a chief sponsor of a law enhancing tax credits for the working poor, played a central role in negotiations over welfare reform and successfully pushed for increasing child care subsidies.
 
 ??I learned that if you??re willing to listen to people, it??s possible to bridge a lot of the differences that dominate the national political debate,? Mr. Obama said in an interview on Friday. ??I pretty quickly got to form relationships with Republicans, with individuals from rural parts of the state, and we had a lot in common.?
 
 Not everyone was impressed, at least initially. His ??pedigree,? as Mr. Jones calls it with a chuckle, evoked some skepticism. Two black, Democratic state senators from Chicago, Donne E. Trotter and Rickey R. Hendon, who both now say they are Obama supporters, caricatured him as a privileged, know-it-all greenhorn. At times, they seemed to call into question his black credentials, foreshadowing complaints from some African-Americans today that Mr. Obama is ??not black enough? because of his biracial heritage and his class.
 
 ??We could barely have meetings in caucus because Donne and Rickey would give him hell,? said State Senator Kimberly A. Lightford, a Democrat and former chairwoman of the Senate??s black caucus. ??Donne would be, ??Just because you??re from Harvard, you think you know everything.?? Barack was like the new kid on the block. He was handsome and he was mild mannered and he was well liked. Sometimes there was a little ??Who??s this? He coming here, he don??t know anything.?? ?
 
 In a Hurry?
 
 His critics say Mr. Obama could have accomplished much more if he had been in less of a hurry to leave the Statehouse behind. Steven J. Rauschenberger, a longtime Republican senator who stepped down this year, said: ??He is a very bright but very ambitious person who has always had his eyes on the prize, and it wasn??t Springfield. If he deserves to be president, it is not because he was a great legislator.?
 
 Within three years of his arrival, Mr. Obama ran for Congress, a race he lost. When the Democrats took control of the State Senate in 2003 ?? and Mr. Jones replaced James Philip, known as Pate, a retired Pepperidge Farm district manager who served as president of the Senate ?? Mr. Obama made his next move.
 
 ??He said to me, ??You??re now the Senate president,?? ? Mr. Jones recalled. ?? ??You have a lot of power.?? I said, ??I do??? He said, ??Yes.?? I said, ??Tell me what kind of power I have.?? He said, ??You have the power to make a U.S. senator.?? I said, ??I do??? He said, ??You do.?? I said, ??If I??ve got that kind of power, do you know of anyone that I can make??? He said, ??Yeah. Me.?? ?
 
 The route that had brought Mr. Obama to Springfield was far from typical. Born in Hawaii and raised for a while in Indonesia, he had worked as a community organizer in Chicago after graduating from Columbia College in 1983. Returning from Harvard to practice law and later teach at the University of Chicago, he had run a voter registration drive in the 1992 election.
 
 Three years later, a congressman from the South Side of Chicago was convicted of having sex with a minor. A Democratic state senator from his district, Alice L. Palmer, decided to run for the seat. Carol Anne Harwell, Mr. Obama??s first campaign manager, said Ms. Palmer invited Mr. Obama, then 35, to run for her seat.
 
 But after losing in the primary, Ms. Palmer had second thoughts. A delegation of her supporters asked Mr. Obama to step aside. He not only declined, but his campaign staff challenged the signatures on Ms. Palmer??s campaign petitions and kept her off the ballot. It was nothing personal: They did the same thing to every other Democrat in the race.
 
 ??He knocked off the incumbent, so that right there gave him some notoriety,? said Ron Davis, who served as Mr. Obama??s precinct coordinator. ??And he ran unopposed ?? which for a rookie is unheard of.?
 
 He added, ??Barack is a quick learner.?
 
 At the time, Mr. Obama said he was running to mobilize people to work for change. He wanted to apply techniques of community organizing to elected office. In a 1995 profile in The Chicago Reader, he said, ??What if a politician were to see his job as an organizer, as part teacher and part advocate, one who does not sell voters short but who educates them about the real choices before them??
 
 But Springfield was not ideally suited for such an approach. Republicans outnumbered Democrats by 37 to 32 in the Senate when Mr. Obama arrived. Power resided almost exclusively with the ??Four Tops? ?? the Senate president, the House speaker and the minority leaders in each chamber. They controlled committee assignments, the legislative agenda, the staff. They even disbursed campaign money.
 
 ??It??s power politics, and it??s politics as a business, and it??s winning and control,? said Kent Redfield, the political studies professor at the University of Illinois at Springfield. ??The mind-set is, it is not the public??s business. That??s part of the culture: It??s about the politicians, and the politicians own the company.?
 
 Asked why he ran for the Senate in a state where rank-and-file lawmakers have been called ??mushrooms? (because they are kept in the dark and fed, uh, manure), Mr. Obama said: ??Part of it was that the seat opened up. I was living in the district, and the state legislature was a part-time position. It allowed me to get my feet wet in politics and test out whether I could get something done.?
 
 Forming Relationships
 
 From his days as an organizer, Mr. Obama already knew the Democratic leader, Mr. Jones, who had come up through the Democratic organization in Chicago. He had helped Mr. Obama??s group acquire state money for a dropout prevention program that still operates today.
 
 ??Well, when he came here, first got elected, he came to me,? Mr. Jones said, ensconced in his corner office in the Statehouse, his head wreathed in a swirl of cigarette smoke. ??And he said to me, ??You know me, you know me quite well.?? He said: ??You know I like to work hard. So feel free in giving me any tough assignments and everything.?? I said, ??Good.?? ?
 
 One of the first was campaign finance reform. Illinois had one of the least regulated campaign finance systems in the country and a history of corruption. Paul Simon, the former United States senator, was running a public policy institute at Southern Illinois University and asked each of the four legislative leaders to name a trusted lawmaker to work on a bipartisan ethics bill.
 
 Mr. Jones recalls receiving a call from Abner J. Mikva, a former Chicago congressman, federal judge and friend of Mr. Simon. Judge Mikva, who had once tried to hire Mr. Obama as a law clerk, suggested him for the job. Mr. Jones says he knew that the new senator was hard-working and bright and that few others would want the assignment.
 
 ??He caught pure hell,? Mr. Jones said of Mr. Obama. ??I actually felt sorry for him at times.?
 
 The job required negotiating across party lines to come up with reform proposals, then presenting them to the Democratic caucus. Senator Kirk Dillard, the Republican Senate president??s appointee, said, ??Barack was literally hooted and catcalled in his caucus.? On the Senate floor, Mr. Dillard said, ??They would bark their displeasure at me, and then they??d unload on Obama.?
 
 Mr. Obama entered the discussions favoring contribution limits, said Mike Lawrence, now director of the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute at Southern Illinois University. But he realized they had no chance of passing. So the legislation, passed in 1998, banned most gifts by lobbyists, prohibited spending campaign money for legislators?? personal use and required electronic filing of campaign disclosure reports.
 
 ??I know he wanted to limit contributions by corporations or labor unions, and he certainly wanted to stop the transfers of huge amounts of money from the four legislative caucus leaders into rank-and-file members?? campaigns,? Mr. Dillard said. ??But he knew that would never happen. So he got off that kick and thought disclosure was a more practical way to shine sunlight on what sometimes are unsavory practices.?
 
 The disclosure requirement ??revolutionized Illinois??s system,? said Cindi Canary, executive director of the Illinois Campaign for Political Reform. By giving journalists immediate access to a database of expenditures and contributions, it transformed political reporting. It also, she said, ??put Senator Obama on a launching pad and put the mantle of ethics legislator on his crown.?
 
 His role, though, did not endear Mr. Obama to everyone.
 
 Racial Friction Early On
 
 By many accounts, there was already friction between him and Mr. Hendon, whose West Side Chicago district is among the poorest in the state, and Mr. Trotter. When Mr. Trotter and Mr. Obama both ran for Congress two years later ?? unsuccessfully, it turned out ?? Mr. Trotter told a reporter that Mr. Obama was viewed in part as ??the white man in blackface in our community.?
 
 Mr. Dillard said, ??I remember Rickey chiding Obama that, ??What do you know, Barack? You grew up in Hawaii and you live in Hyde Park. What do you know about the street??? To which Obama shot back: ??I know a lot. I didn??t exactly have a rosy childhood. I??m a street organizer by profession and a lot of my area, once you get outside the University of Chicago neighborhoods, is just as tough as your West Side, Rickey.?? ?
 
 In an interview, Mr. Trotter said Mr. Obama had arrived ??wanting to change things immediately,? as though he intended ??to straighten out all these folks because they??re crooks.? But Mr. Trotter credited Mr. Obama with later ??trying to make himself more regular? and ??taking himself out of his cocoon, his comfort zone? and ??not just pontificating through the press.?
 
 Mr. Hendon, who says he is writing a book on electoral politics called ??Backstabbers,? said ethics reform would have passed with or without Mr. Obama because of scandals that preceded it. He said the sponsors of ethics bills tended to be ??wealthy kind of people, the same kind of people who vote against pay raises, who don??t need $5,000 a year. Whereas senators like me from poorer communities, we could use that $5,000.?
 
 Mr. Hendon praised Mr. Obama, however, for later winning passage of what some in Springfield called ??the driving-while-black bill,? which required the police to collect data on the race of drivers they stopped as a way to monitor racial profiling. Law enforcement groups had repeatedly blocked earlier versions while the Republicans were in control; when the Democrats took over, Mr. Obama brokered a compromise between the police groups and the A.C.L.U.
 
 Mr. Hendon, sponsor of a previous bill, said Mr. Obama had ??made some compromises that other members of the black caucus just weren??t willing to bend on? ?? perhaps, he said, because Senator Obama had never been abused by the police. But he added, ??I??m not saying he gave up too much. In hindsight, it was best to go ahead with the weaker version because a lot of police attitudes changed when we passed it.?
 
 Mr. Obama worked hard at building connections. Aside from taking up golf he joined a weekly poker game. One lobbyist said Mr. Obama played poker well, but ??with more skill than luck,? adding, ??It??s certainly not instinctive with him; it??s cerebral.?
 
 In Springfield, Mr. Obama said, he learned early ??that forming relationships a lot of times was more important than having all the policy talking points in your arsenal. That most of the time people at the state level ?? and in the U.S. Senate ?? are moved as much by whether or not they trust you and whether or not they think your values are sound as they are by graphs and charts and numbers on a page.?
 
 Many of those relationships have proved helpful since. As Mr. Jones tells it, when Mr. Obama asked him to support his run for the United States Senate, the younger man had already figured out that the Senate president??s early backing could ??checkmate? the mayor, the governor and organized labor.
 
 Senator Terry Link, a forklift business owner who golfed and played poker with Mr. Obama, also provided assistance. Chairman of the Lake County Democratic organization, he informed the group that it would be backing the long shot, Mr. Obama, in the Senate primary.
 
 ??They all thought I??d lost my marbles,? said Mr. Link. ?? ??You??re nuts! We can??t support him.?? I said, ??When you know him like I know him, you??ll all support him.?? The largest percentage in the primary came from my county. He carried every precinct.?

Sage 703

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #263 on: February 21, 2008, 01:33:00 pm »
Those articles should be enough to answer at least some of your questions about consensus building and past experience.

Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #264 on: February 21, 2008, 01:36:00 pm »
I'm not completely discrediting his Illinois state legislative record, because he clearly was successful there and did alot of good, but his record at the national level is far, far less impressive. To go back to my sports analogy, some awesome high school football players become middling college players and have no business being in the pros. If he's finding it harder to be successful in Congress, what does he think is going to happen if he's President? It doesn't get easier.
 
 Doesn't Hillary's record of being successful at the national level and building cohesion at that level (which the President needs to do) impress you that she might - might! - be better suited for the job then Obama?

Sage 703

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #265 on: February 21, 2008, 01:41:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, good manners AFICIONADO:
  I'm not completely discrediting his Illinois state legislative record, because he clearly was successful there and did alot of good, but his record at the national level is far, far less impressive. To go back to my sports analogy, some awesome high school football players become middling college players and have no business being in the pros. If he's finding it harder to be successful in Congress, what does he think is going to happen if he's President? It doesn't get easier.
 
 Doesn't Hillary's record of being successful at the national level and building cohesion at that level (which the President needs to do) impress you that she might - might! - be better suited for the job then HopeChange?
I'm not arguing that Hillary isn't qualified.  I'm saying that Obama brings an element of pragmatism to the table that she doesn't that has the potential to be more impactful and less divisive.
 
 Like it or not, an enduring legacy of the Clinton era (which, for the record, I was an enormous supporter of in the 1990s) is political deadlock and divisiveness.  I think it is virtually impossible to expect that a Hillary Clinton presidency would result in anything other than another 4-8 years of extreme partisanship.  I think Obama has the potential to change that.  Hillary, frankly, does not.
 
 And of course Obama's record in the U.S. Senate is going to be less impressive - he's been there less time and has spent the bulk of that time running for President.  I'm not excusing that - he's still a Senator from my home state and part of me is truly irritated that he's not spending more time doing his current job.  
 
 But you keep asking for proof of his experience.  You want to play with sports analogies?  If you're Boston, do you sign Dice-K?  After all, the only experience you've seen are in a different league.  How about Seattle and Ichiro?  Do you take a pass on Yao Ming because he's only played in a different league?

Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #266 on: February 21, 2008, 01:49:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by callat703:
  I'm saying that Obama brings an element of pragmatism to the table that she doesn't that has the potential to be more impactful and less divisive.
 
What makes you feel Obama is more pragmatic? I see him going around saying, if elected, the way we do politics will change and there'll be a spirit of bipartisanship like never before. I guess I don't see that happening no matter who the President is... the Democrats and Republicans are still going to be at each other's throats and not skipping around and having picnics together. I guess, if he actually believes that, he's not very pragmatic -- in my opinion -- at all. If he doesn't believe it, then he's sortof being disingenuous.
 
 I think in the politically divided world we live in, ANYONE is going to have big problems passing serious legislation when it comes to single-payer health care or many other social issues. Hillary's divisive but I don't believe for a second that the Republicans are going to oppose less Barack if he's the President and proposing similar things. To me, I feel Hillary, with the trackrecord, team, and infrastructure already in place, has a better shot at serious changes. Obama has to build that infrastructure and team within his own party, really.
 
 I guess that's why I don't put alot of stock in being an "outsider." The President has to work with alot of people in Congress, etc, to bring about change and Hillary has those relationships already in place. Obama has some, particularly in the Senate, but not nearly as wide of a network.
 
 But in the spirit of open discussion, please do  explain why you feel Obama is more pragmatic and impactful.

godsshoeshine

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #267 on: February 21, 2008, 01:49:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, good manners AFICIONADO:
   
Quote
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
  actually i'm hoping barack's more eli manning
Eli Manning was in Super Bowl 36? Barack Obama's gawky looking? [/b]
i just hate tom brady, and like barack. you arent really taking the sports analogy seriously are you
o/\o

Julian, Alleged Computer F**kface

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #268 on: February 21, 2008, 01:54:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by god's shoeshine:
 you arent really taking the sports analogy seriously are you?
It worked on so many levels until you started throwing people who weren't in Super Bowl 36 into it.

ratioci nation

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Re: DC Area Voters
« Reply #269 on: February 21, 2008, 02:01:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Julian, good manners AFICIONADO:
  I'm not completely discrediting his Illinois state legislative record, because he clearly was successful there and did alot of good, but his record at the national level is far, far less impressive. To go back to my sports analogy, some awesome high school football players become middling college players and have no business being in the pros. If he's finding it harder to be successful in Congress, what does he think is going to happen if he's President? It doesn't get easier.
 
 Doesn't Hillary's record of being successful at the national level and building cohesion at that level (which the President needs to do) impress you that she might - might! - be better suited for the job then Obama?
I would say Hillary had a lot more influence right away upon entering the Senate given that she already had a political history in Washington, its hard for a freshman Senator to get a lot done unless you are the former first lady.  That issue of influence doesnt matter as much when you become president because the influence comes with the office.